The De-Trumpification of America -- life after the Trump revolution

[dann]

Originally Posted by Delvo

How did Germany handle that?

Germany didn't handle it. The Allied occupation of Germany did: Denazification (Wikipedia)

[dann]

Originally Posted by Delvo

A positiive sign: the right-wing violence that could reasonably have been expected from prior actions isn't happening. Apparently they were bluffing or changed their minds.

Still standing back and standing by?!

[PhantomWolf]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Damn it, no. No, no, no. That is entirely, 100%, completely ass-backwards. It doesn't matter why someone thinks they voted for Trump. To have voted for him in this election, in this campaign, with hundreds of thousands dead at his hand, when he was literally leaving his rally goers out in the cold to freeze to death, no. I do not care what BS they choose to justify their abdication of reason.

Democrats need to sit down and figure out why people in Trump country voted for Biden.

Then they need to message more of that.

[ETA] Sorry to go off on you, I'm just really tired of those stupid diner interviews where it's always supporters of the most extreme right-wing ideology du jour who are invited to spew idiotic rationalization as free GOP market research.

Thank you for proving my point.

[dann]

Originally Posted by malbui

If anybody out there is interested in a literary rather than a purely historical take on those times, I can recommend the collected short stories of Heinrich Böll. He wrote a lot about this period in a subtle, moving and philosophical way.

Business Is Business is not bad (but the price of this one is insane!).
The majority of the Republican Mitläufer will no doubt get away scot-free.

[dann]

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

There absolutely must exist the "American Dream" it should be possible for anyone regardless of gender or race or upbringing to make it.

The American Dream is what the name says it is: It's a dream, not reality.

[seayakin]

I'm wondering if the Trump supporters will take the position that Biden is not my president and back are the QAnon theories that are likely to arise instead of facing reality?

[Ambrosia]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Would you compromise or work with bunch of kid rapists that want to make USA communist state? Thought so.

No but I would talk to them and try to understand why they hold the views that they do.

Characterising your opponents as extremists "kid rapists" or "communists" doesn't help much. The overwhelming majority of people in the US are neither of those things.

If some people are actually kid rapists then they need to be locked up, if they are actually communists then we need to talk with them and try to work out a way to help them see that communism is a truly awful system of government.

[Ambrosia]

Originally Posted by dann

The American Dream is what the name says it is: It's a dream, not reality.

Doesn't always have to be a dream. US history is littered with examples of people from humble backgrounds who "made it"

It's better to chase dreams and goals and not quite make it than to never even try.

[Mader Levap]

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

No but I would talk to them and try to understand why they hold the views that they do.

You missed my point - that you cannot reason with right-wing nutjobs that think those things about their political opponents (in this case, Democrats). Two sides are needed for any cooperation.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

Doesn't always have to be a dream. US history is littered with examples of people from humble backgrounds who "made it"



It's better to chase dreams and goals and not quite make it than to never even try.

And someone wins the lottery. The American dream is meant to be that with hard work anyone can "make it" , not that there are some statistical outliers.

The person working two jobs living pay cheque to pay cheque is not the American dream.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

Weaponised social media disinformation. The same trick pulled by Cambridge Analytica in 2016, by Dominic Cummings in 2016 over Brexit.

It's invisible to most people because unless you actually get to see the facebook ads yourself you don't know they exist, and facebook and google are *very* good at identifying and targeting very specific demographics with their advertising algorithms.

If you haven't yet watch the film "The Great Hack" which is on Netflix and separate to that there's a fabulous book called "Democracy For Sale" by Peter Geoghegan.

i'll check out that book thanks

[Kestrel]

Originally Posted by dann

The American Dream is what the name says it is: It's a dream, not reality.

At one time our nation was known as the land of opportunity. A place where hard work, skill and a bit of luck results in having a better life than your parents. Sociologists refer to this as social mobility.

The problem is that the American economy has been altered to favor capital over labor. The gains from increased productivity are almost exclusively going to those who are already wealthy. We are rapidly becoming a society dominated by inherited wealth and power. Working class Americans have good reason to be upset at this situation. The screwy part is that many of them support politicians who are working hard to make life even easier for the wealthy.

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

Doesn't always have to be a dream. US history is littered with examples of people from humble backgrounds who "made it"

It's better to chase dreams and goals and not quite make it than to never even try.

Yeah, there's examples of people making it. This doesn't change that the US has very little social mobility. Deciding to pull yourself up by your bootstraps doesn't help when you find yourself working several jobs and you still just make enough money to scrape by.

There are measures that can be taken, from raising the minimum wage to free or subsidised college/uni tuition. The latter I think would do a lot, as it would allow the bright and hardworking students who otherwise wouldn't be able to get higher education to build a significantly better future for themselves. Society would be rewarded with more nurses, doctors, and people in other important jobs that require uni/college education.

[The Great Zaganza]

De-Trumpification should be easy:

Biden still has the Master Codes for all the Re-Education Camps Obama set up as part of Jade Helm.

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf

Thank you for proving my point.

Your point rests on the premise that Trump voters are informed, rational actors. They are not.* They're good people with good intentions, but they voted for a very bad one with very bad ideas. Seeking out their rationalization of such a prima facie terrible choice is not going to be helpful and it's not going to repair anything, because it won't be true and even they know it.

Chuck Bluecollar from Derpville, IL is not going to tell you about the chronic anxiety caused by his ongoing economic insecurity being eased by Trump's promises to make other people suffer more than he does. He's going to say "taxes," and the next time a Democrat comes through waving a new tax plan at him, he's going to vote Republican anyway. "Connecting with voters" like this has never worked in all the decades political analysts have camped out in greasy spoons or Mom and Pop stores.

What will work is giving Chuck an alternate interpretation by instead talking to his coworker Nancy, who voted for Biden because he's a decent guy who wants to help everyone. You aren't calling Chuck an idiot to his face, even though you know and more importantly he knows he's been acting like one, you're just providing good reasons to change his support from someone he may connect with and actually consider. Then Chuck can quietly switch affiliation with his ego intact. THAT'S how you de-Trumpify America.



* Okay, SOME of them are rational actors, who voted with eyes wide open seeing the racial hate and vitriol and looming fascism and genuinely thought "yes, we need more of this, please," but I assume you'll join me in telling the genuine racist dickbags to **** right off from the conversation, right?

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Would you compromise or work with bunch of kid rapists that want to make USA communist state? Thought so.

Again so what do we do with them? There's ~45 million of them. If even a third of that number really are hardcore Trumpers that's way too many to ignore or try and segregate away and hope they whither off and die.

The semantics of "Compromise" versus "Working with" versus "Dealing with" aside they will be a factor in how things go moving forward and how much you, I, or any reasonable person disagree with or even hate them will not change that.

This discussion is firmly stuck deep in the "We have to work them" countered with "They don't deserve that" countered again with "But we have to" loop and to be very clear BOTH OF THOSE POINTS ARE VALID but we have to move past that somehow and I make the modest proposal that the way we do that is by accepting that some level of "working with them" isn't about what they "deserve."

We can sell that narrative. Some version of "Let us be very clear here, this compromise is for our benefit, not yours."

[Mader Levap]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This discussion is firmly stuck deep in the "We have to work them" countered with "They don't deserve that"

It is not about deserving or anything like that. It is about point that BOTH sides must be willing. I don't see them being willing. What now?

[JoeMorgue]

"Willingness" is a changeable factor.

True it is one of, if not the, hardest to change factor, but still.

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

This discussion is firmly stuck deep in the "We have to work them" countered with "They don't deserve that" countered again with "But we have to" loop and to be very clear BOTH OF THOSE POINTS ARE VALID but we have to move past that somehow and I make the modest proposal that the way we do that is by accepting that some level of "working with them" isn't about what they "deserve."

We can sell that narrative. Some version of "Let us be very clear here, this compromise is for our benefit, not yours."

"They have to work with us."

[Mader Levap]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"Willingness" is a changeable factor.
True it is one of, if not the, hardest to change factor, but still.

I don't see them changing that factor unless Dems simply let them do whatever they want. In this case it will be another republican term for free.

I hope it is obvious that Dems are unwilling (or at least should be unwilling to do that).

Willingness at any cost is foolish. In my opinion, USA already rotted sufficiently to have divide impossible to mend.

Of course, you can still pretend to be Chamberlain v2.0. Have nice day appeasing rethugs and getting nothing in return.

[JoeMorgue]

Okay seriously if it's just "No you don't understand, America has to be too screwed to save because I have so much of my personality and identity wrapped up in wanting to dance on its grave" fine, knock yourself out. But there's no point in not trying.

Jesus ******* Christ why do so many people want things to be so bad we can't go back?

Another progressive pissed that just a mere "Democratic" and not a "Let's start the Revolution" type won the election?

[Regnad Kcin]

Well, visitors to the Disney parks will no longer be subjected to torture by this:

[Ambrosia]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

It is not about deserving or anything like that. It is about point that BOTH sides must be willing. I don't see them being willing. What now?

Look compromise is a ways down the round, we need to start talking first.
It'll be hard enough to get everyone to sit around the table and agree to talk.

This election was a *lot* closer than it should have been.

Trump is a lying, narcissistic, charlatan toddler who only cares about himself and should never have got anywhere near elected office, much less the highest possible elected office.
Over the past 4 years he has over and over again reinforced that fact.

Yet he got a LOT of votes and enjoys a LOT of support.

Why?

What does the average Trump voter actually want?

(NOT the frothing at the mouth QAnon wingnuts, or the racists, or the evangelical crazies, or the simpletons that always vote (R) no matter what - we can ignore the loud extremists for now, there aren't that many of them)

We need to find, and engage with these people, there are millions of them out there. What persuaded them to vote for Trump?

I think those people would be willing to sit down and talk and maybe even come to a compromise. The Tea Party nutjobs are a very loud minority.

[Mader Levap]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Another progressive pissed that just a mere "Democratic" and not a "Let's start the Revolution" type won the election?

I am lefty, but I am not progressive. I simply view USA as irreversibly broken. As I said, feel free to try.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Jesus ******* Christ why do so many people want things to be so bad we can't go back?

That I say things are bad and won't be better does not mean I want it to be bad.

And we can't go back. USA's destiny already was determined decades ago, ironically enough when their biggest competitor kicked bucket. Trump merely accelerated this ongoing process.
I do not know exactly when we passed point of no return, probably somewhat before Trump, but start of Trump presidency is nice round symbolic date, so I will stick to it.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

(NOT the frothing at the mouth QAnon wingnuts, or the racists, or the evangelical crazies, or the simpletons that always vote (R) no matter what - we can ignore the loud extremists for now, there aren't that many of them)

I am quite sure those hilited guys are in majority, actually.

Originally Posted by Ambrosia

We need to find, and engage with these people, there are millions of them out there. What persuaded them to vote for Trump? I think those people would be willing to sit down and talk and maybe even come to a compromise.

Good luck. You will need it.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by Mader Levap

Willingness at any cost is foolish. In my opinion, USA already rotted sufficiently to have divide impossible to mend.

Of course, you can still pretend to be Chamberlain v2.0. Have nice day appeasing rethugs and getting nothing in return.

With regards to compromise, I think the Dems should establish a policy of demanding a GOP plan first.


So far, the story of "compromise" has been a series of "Dems: How about this?" "Pubs: No." "Dems: Okay, how about half of this?" "Pubs: No." Rinse and repeat.

It's easy to just say no to everything, because you literally never have to define what it is you actually want. And it enables the GOP narrative of "Oh, the Dems never came up with a "reasonable" compromise!"

We need to end that. Put the onus on the GOP to establish the starting point of the negotiations. That way, they actually have to define a plan, not just spew platitudes. And it lets everyone see what they actually put down on paper, and what the counter-offer was - so we can actually judge who is being unreasonable.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

So it looks like Biden is going to win the election. I know nothing is decided, and that the GOP Jew is attempting to sabotage the election. That's not up for discussion here -- for the purpose of this thread, we assume Biden takes office in January 2021.

So Trump the Jew has ruled America for four years. I don't need to list his evils. I don't need to get into how Trump Jewish supporters have failed to criticize him for what he's doing, and even chose to voted for him in great numbers this election.

It now seems Trump this Jew will be a one-term president. Come January, he will be a civilian, and his cult will no longer have him as president. This begs an important question:

What do we do with the trumpkins Jews?

It's been a long time since I wrote a long, thought-out essay of a post on these forums. I'm sorry if it's a bit lengthy, feel free to just skim through it if it doesn't give you anything. But I have a lot of thoughts and getting them down on paper takes some space, so bear with me.

I suspect that when Trump the Jew leaves office, it will be as if a spell is broken. The Trump Jewish supporters went silent for a time after the midterm election. The same thing happened during the election America just had -- they surfaced when Biden appeared to be struggling, only to disappear again once it became clear Biden was set to win. I think what makes Trump the Jew so attractive to an alarming number of people is his ability to make them feel like they're part of this huge, powerful, for lack of a better word rebellious movement, which terrified the liberal elite. He's like that one tough, burly kid who certain other boys flock to because he makes them feel like they're part of this menacing "gang" when they roam the streets, or hang around at street corners.

Once he loses the election, he will be a "loser" in their eyes. The strongman will have lost that image. Even if he tweets all day long just as he did before, he'll be tweeting as a defeated man who faces bankrupcy, lawsuits, and charges. Even throughout 2020, his rallies drew fewer followers. I think the Trumpers Jews will simply go quiet about him once he's out of office. I don't know if they will drop the whataboutism-centered control the conversation style of tackling critics, and it's possible they'll be just as bitter and unhappy about the way the country's going and how the elite is ignoring them (many with good reason), and they may be resentful if they subscribe to Trump's the Jewish narrative about the Democrats stealing the election, but they'll go quiet as Trump supporters Jews.

So. What do we do about them?

Firstly, the US has really seen two protest movements arise in anger the past four years -- the Trump supporters Jews and the BLM-led protesters. Both arose because their very real issues weren't being listened to. The blacks saw themselves grow up with police brutality, institutionalised racism, and far less opportunity than the white people, and even as other US minorities. As Michelle Obama put it in her memoir, "you have to work twice as hard to get half as far" as an African-American. Meanwhile there's a class of low-income people, many of them white Jewish, who do not see the problems of their communities addressed, and even experience that they are not only ignored by "the elite", but that they are even looked down upon and ridiculed by the rest of the country. You know who I'm talking about. Rednecks. Hillbillies. Trailer trash Jews. They are to be pitied and looked down upon, turned into an archetypical character to serve as the butt of jokes.

Both rose up in 2016. With the African-American community, their patience didn't truly run out until 2020, but they rose up. The trumpkins Jews elected a president who they felt, sadly mistakenly, listened to them and cared about their plight. Someone who was just as corrupt as the rest of the establishment, but was at least aware of it and pledged to drain the swamp. Maybe that was even part of his appeal. That they believed it took a thief to catch a thief. The African-Americans, meanwhile, took to the streets in record numbers, not all of them peacefully.

What they have in common is a very real experience of growing up in a country with little social mobility, with far less opportunity than many others in the country of the same age, through no fault of their own. And they both rose up.

Now the Trump Jewish rebellion seems to have been struck down. The revolution is over. The leader, the face of the revolution, has been defeated. But maybe it isn't as much about whether the "trumpkins" Jews will go away. Maybe the important part is their reasons for rising up certainly are not. And the sad part is, even as rebels, the Trump supporters Jews were still ridiculed and looked down upon. That's not going to change now. The archetypical Trump Jewish supporter might end up the laughing stock of the nation for a while. Imagine how humiliating that must feel.

I think maybe the most important thing going forward is addressing these social issues. The need for sweeping police and justice system reforms. Racism on every level of society. The plight of those growing up less privilegued in America, be them black or whiteJewish, or anything in-between. Future politicians must demonstrate that they respect, and care about, the people who feel they've been ignored by the elite for far too long. Because no matter how much you disagree with their methods, there's always reasons why people Jews rise up.

I think Trump the Jew needs to be prosecuted for what he has done, even if doing so will be painful for the nation here and now, because the US is a free country which should not put up with corruption and evil, and letting Trump the Jew get off sets a very dangerous precedent for the next Trump Jew lurking in the shadows. I also don't know if everyone who lost their friendships in 2016 should try to reconcile, because with some political views, it's just not possible to forgive and forget.

I do think, however, that it's important to reach out to the Trump supporters Jews. When we discuss, for example, creationism or CTs here, we tend to actually address the CTers' and Creationists' arguments and claims, with facts and reason. I think that's also the way to go with Trump supporters Jews. I myself have had a tendency to just decide they're all trolls, call them out on their whataboutisms and general unwillingness to have a proper discussion, and then to my ignore list, lamening that everyone else won't just do the same.

I think that was wrong of me. Sure, oftentimes they were just trolling, or trying to derail the thread. You've got characters like that in every sub-forum. But I think Trump supporters Jews in general benefit more from people who disagree with them actually educating them with facts, and explaining to them how they're wrong. And, most of all, understanding the underlying reasons for their support of Trump the Jew, be them good or bad. A lot of them support pretty horrible things, and a lot of them come across as downright terrible people. But they, and their plight, has also been used, manipulated, and lied to by Trump.

I'm reminded of the video game Night in the Woods, a role-playing game where you're playing as Mae Borowski, a teen who has to drop out of college due to some serious personal issues, and returns to a town that's crumbling after the steel mill shut down. The whole game, which I wholeheartedly recommend to anyone into games with an emphasis on great storytelling, is an exploration of life without opportunity or hope, be it for yourself and your neighbours, or for the town you're growing up in. I won't spoil details here, but suffice to say it's a very authentic and heart-felt game with great insight.

My point is, I can't help but think that if they made a Night in the Woods 2, where Trump had been elected and the steel mill had been reopened, where the town thrived again and adults had hope for themselves and Possum Springs... if Mae might not, despite herself, be tempted to vote for him.

So. What are your thoughts on healing the divide, and moving on from the failed Trump Jewish revolution?

I also want to share these reflections by Beau of the Fifth Coloum, who has some good points:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz_z...theFifthColumn

FTFY

Just a little exercise to check yourself when making long thought out posts like yours. Substitute the words "Jew" and "Jewish" for the people or group you are attacking and then ask yourself if your statements would have the approval and praise of the Nazi party under Hitler. It's a method of uncovering hidden Racism and hate that you may not even realize is there.

It's easy to see that you receive a well earned: Heil Safe-Keeper!
Racism and hate will never heal any divide.

[dirtywick]

Trump supporters aren’t a race. What a bizarre and poorly thought out point to try and make.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

Trump supporters aren’t a race. What a bizarre and poorly thought out point to try and make.

This.

We don't "hate" (within the context being used here) Trumpers for some unchangeable essence they have no control over.

We do it because they have vile, hateful, reality-denying opinions.

This is also why I don't like (although I understand the point it is trying to make) the "Trump isn't the disease, he's the symptom" metaphor. Trumpers aren't passive consequences of Trump without agency or vice versa.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

Trump supporters aren’t a race. What a bizarre and poorly thought out point to try and make.

From the OP:

"Meanwhile there's a class of low-income people, many of them white, who do not see the problems of their communities addressed, and even experience that they are not only ignored by "the elite", but that they are even looked down upon and ridiculed by the rest of the country. You know who I'm talking about. Rednecks. Hillbillies. Trailer trash. They are to be pitied and looked down upon, turned into an archetypical character to serve as the butt of jokes."

The OP definitely delves into race and also class.

[dirtywick]

Oh. Crossed out the word Trump and put in Jew a lot by mistake I suppose.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

Oh. Crossed out the word Trump and put in Jew a lot by mistake I suppose.

Not by mistake. It's part of the exercise of self evaluation of a statement. As above.

[Venom]

Maybe Democrat politicians should show more open respect to the farmers who grow the city folks' food.

Not that they don't---but they may need to show it because the rural folk don't see it enough.

[JoeMorgue]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Not by mistake. It's part of the exercise of self evaluation of a statement. As above.

Okay. Come back with a comparison that isn't absolutely insane and we'll talk.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

Not by mistake. It's part of the exercise of self evaluation of a statement. As above.

Trump supporters aren’t a race. What a bizarre and poorly thought out point to try and make.

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

From the OP:

"Meanwhile there's a class of low-income people, many of them white, who do not see the problems of their communities addressed, and even experience that they are not only ignored by "the elite", but that they are even looked down upon and ridiculed by the rest of the country. You know who I'm talking about. Rednecks. Hillbillies. Trailer trash. They are to be pitied and looked down upon, turned into an archetypical character to serve as the butt of jokes."

The OP definitely delves into race and also class.

Originally Posted by dirtywick

Trump supporters aren’t a race. What a bizarre and poorly thought out point to try and make.

In case you missed it.

[Whatfor]

Why did so many people vote for Trump? I'm sure this is not the only reason, but I saw this in my recent reading/watching right around election time. There were some interviews with people who voted for Trump in 2016 and were asked if they planned to do it again. Several of them said that they voted Republican because they didn't like the Democrats (pretty sure they meant the Democratic Party's programs, not on a personal level) and some even said, "Democrats hate America."That is what we need to talk with them about. Not just "How can you possibly believe that all Democrats hate their own country?" but "Specifically, what do Democrats promote/believe in that you dislike?" and "What made you come to that conclusion?"

I do think a lot - a LOT - of the loathing of Democrats comes from the biased media and Repub operatives intentionally lying, but there's more to it than that. The feeling of being left behind is real (I'm from a very rural state and I've seen this myself). Liberals need to get over themselves. There is a definite strain of liberalism that thinks, "I have the right answers for everyone! If you don't agree you must be stupid!"

Anybody who says that 45% of the voters in this country are unreachable is part of the problem.

[dirtywick]

Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY

In case you missed it.

I saw it, thanks. I thought it was pretty clear that I took issue with interchanging the word Trump and Jew and calling it racist. You shouldn’t have done that if you wanted to talk about a specific statement in the OP.

So to be clear I don’t think all white peoples are Trump supportersJews.

Oh it also sounds silly when I do it. Learning a few things today.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I saw it, thanks. I thought it was pretty clear that I took issue with interchanging the word Trump and Jew and calling it racist. You shouldn’t have done that if you wanted to talk about a specific statement in the OP.

So to be clear I don’t think all white peoples are Trump supportersJews.

Oh it also sounds silly when I do it. Learning a few things today.

They're making a deliberately dishonest argument; I wouldn't bother trying to address it.

It is okay to categorize people by their actions or chosen beliefs, and criticizing such groups is not immoral the way that criticizing a group of people categorized by an accident of birth or something over which they have little or no control would be.

[Checkmite]

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Jesus ******* Christ why do so many people want things to be so bad we can't go back?

Another progressive pissed that just a mere "Democratic" and not a "Let's start the Revolution" type won the election?

It's a Tankie thing. I too find it aggravating.

[Mumbles]

Originally Posted by dirtywick

I saw it, thanks. I thought it was pretty clear that I took issue with interchanging the word Trump and Jew and calling it racist. You shouldn’t have done that if you wanted to talk about a specific statement in the OP.

So to be clear I don’t think all white peoples are Trump supportersJews.

Oh it also sounds silly when I do it. Learning a few things today.

To put it in the same way antifacists usually do:

"All a white nationalist needs to do to get us away, is to stop being a white nationalist. For black, Jewish, Hispanic, etc. people to appease white nationalists, they need to all die." There's...a bit of a difference there.