Falsifying the history of WW II - Page 2

Matthew Ellard · 23rd November 2020, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Saggy

Jews as Marxists -

Pssstt Saggy.......Stalin trained at an Orthodox Christian Seminary in Tiflis.

You keep pretending you forgot that.

Jack by the hedge · 23rd November 2020, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Saggy

And he was right on all counts.

LOL.

CaptainHowdy · 23rd November 2020, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Yes, neo-nazies do like falsifying the history of WW2 and trying to absolve one of the largest mass murderers and monsters of the history of mankind.

But I'm sorry, Hitler was a warmonger who willingly and for his own evil gains started WW2 .

Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany conspired together to conquer Poland and take back the parts of Poland that had been taken away from Germany and Russia after World War 1 to recreate the Polish nation. On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. Poland surrendered and each power annexed the territory that had been previously agreed upon.

Great Britain and France had pledged to support Poland if her sovereignty was attacked. So after Germany invaded Poland (but before the Soviet Union did), they declared war on Germany, turning a regional conflict into a world war.

The Soviet Union's role as an aggressor was quietly forgotten after the Soviet Union was pushed into an alliance with Great Britain and the United States by Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

The funny thing is that Great Britain and France agreed to support the Polish nation if it was threatened by an external foe. That was the stated reason for the declaration of war on Germany. But neither country declared war on the Soviet Union when that country did exactly what Nazi Germany had done. And after the war, the Soviet Union controlled internal Polish politics to the extent that the country never really gained sovereignty until 1989 anyway.

So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated.

Matthew Ellard · 23rd November 2020, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. .

Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading?

You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However....
"Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol"

Hans · 23rd November 2020, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading?

You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However....
"Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol"

Hitler had already primed the pump as it were by annexing the Sudetenland in October 1938 and then the rump of Czechoslovakia (except Slovak Republic) that begame a vassal of Germany - so his aggressive stance - as he had stated in MK had been recognized.

This was after earlier annexing Austria.

This was all agreed in with at the: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossbach_Memorandum

Captain_Swoop · 23rd November 2020, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany conspired together to conquer Poland and take back the parts of Poland that had been taken away from Germany and Russia after World War 1 to recreate the Polish nation. On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. Poland surrendered and each power annexed the territory that had been previously agreed upon.

Great Britain and France had pledged to support Poland if her sovereignty was attacked. So after Germany invaded Poland (but before the Soviet Union did), they declared war on Germany, turning a regional conflict into a world war.

The Soviet Union's role as an aggressor was quietly forgotten after the Soviet Union was pushed into an alliance with Great Britain and the United States by Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

The funny thing is that Great Britain and France agreed to support the Polish nation if it was threatened by an external foe. That was the stated reason for the declaration of war on Germany. But neither country declared war on the Soviet Union when that country did exactly what Nazi Germany had done. And after the war, the Soviet Union controlled internal Polish politics to the extent that the country never really gained sovereignty until 1989 anyway.

So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated.

Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along!

Hans · 23rd November 2020, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along!

Yep they started WWII by beating Germany in WWI - all their fault.

They were mean to Germany!!!

Saggy · 23rd November 2020, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated.

What's this ... ????? .... intelligent life discovered on SI ???????

It's an incredible story for sure, and well told I believe, in Buchanan's book, for a 1-hour synopsys see ...
https://www.bitchute.com/video/ALp2GkpcuzZi/

But really, the book is must reading.

Of course Buchanan's view is limited, here is an indication of what was really going on in Britain, and that we know next to nothing about ....truly a remarkable book, 'Left Wings Over Europe, or How to Make a War About Nothing': written British man of letters Wyndham Lewis in 1936 !!!

Quote:

As far as Great Britain is concerned, there is, in 1936, not a shadow of a reason for a war with anybody. It is because that there is no concrete reason that abstract reasons have had to be thought up and trotted out.
...
Nationalism may be superseded by the issue between different forms of political structure, between parliamentarism, fascism, and Bolshevism. .... Parliamentarism and Bolshevism seem to feel a remarkable affinity for one another, if for no other reason than that they are both consumed with an equal hatred of fascism.
...
No British statesman has ever desired a war with Germany. But they have apparently come to regard themselves as committed to a policy which is violently determined to rid Europe of Hitler. And they are well aware that that cannot be effected without the risk of another world-war. It is not so much ‘fascist dictatorship’ that excites them — for after all they left Mussolini in complete peace for a decade. Neither does Dictatorship , in itself, excite them so much as all that — even accompanied by a permanent Reign of Terror and the massacre of millions of people. For Soviet Russia has been left undisturbed. No, it can only be something about the internal regime of Adolf Hitler that excites in them this implacable mood.
...
The Franco-Soviet pact has been ratified and it is highly probable that a Rumano-Soviet pact, on the lines of the military pact between the Soviet and Czechoslovakia, will be signed in the near future. The Austrian Government (which represents a fantastically small fraction of the people of Austria) seems to be moving towards an entente with the Little Entente. So the game of ‘encirclement’ goes on: and all these arrangements — carried on in every case over the heads and usually in contradiction to the wishes of the people — are made possible, and constantly stimulated by British and French gold. The remarks which I have quoted from the Morning Post mean, in plain language, that Great Britain is about to arm the Soviet against Germany. (Marshal Tukachevski stopped behind in England after the funeral of King George to go round the British armament factories to pick his tanks and guns.) There have constantly been rumours of a fifty million pounds British loan to France. That, too, in plain language, is Great Britain arming France against ‘the Hun’
...
There is one country where the Englishman is certain of a warm welcome: there is one country whose government never ceases to proffer friendship, and to be accommodating and polite, and that is Germany. Year in and year out, like a love-sick supplicant, Herr Hitler pays his court to the haughty Britannia. Every insult that can be invented even by the resourceful Mr. Churchill is tamely swallowed, every rebuff of Mr. Baldwin’s, every sneer of Mr. Eden, is meekly accepted, by this pertinacious suitor!

Matthew Ellard · 23rd November 2020, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Saggy

It's an incredible story for sure, and well told I believe, in (Pat) Buchanan's book, for a 1-hour synopsys (sic) see ..

"Pat Buchanan insists controversial book not pro-Hitler"
https://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/.../buchanan.GOP/

.....or maybe some quotes from Pat Buchanan

“If you want to know ethnicity and power in the United States Senate, 13 members of the Senate are Jewish folks who are from 2 percent of the population. That is where real power is at….” - Pat Buchanan

“If [Elena] Kagan is confirmed, Jews, who represent less than 2 percent of the U.S. population, will have 33 percent of the Supreme Court seats. Is this Democrats’ idea of diversity?” - Pat Buchanan

"The problem is: Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." - Pat Buchanan (as a holocaust denier)

"Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier’s soldier in the Great War, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him." - Pat Buchanan (as pro Hitler)

"In the late 1940’s and 1950’s…race was never a preoccupation with us, we rarely thought about it….There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The ‘Negroes’ of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours. - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)

“Mexicans not only come from another culture, but millions are of another race. History and experience teach us that different races are far more difficult to assimilate. The sixty million Americans who claim German ancestry are fully assimilated, while millions from Africa and Asia are still not full participants in American society.” - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)

Border Reiver · 23rd November 2020, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by Saggy

Of course Buchanan's view is limited, here is an indication of what was really going on in Britain, and that we know next to nothing about ....truly a remarkable book, 'Left Wings Over Europe, or How to Make a War About Nothing': written British man of letters Wyndham Lewis in 1936 !!!

Now, what happened between 1936 and 1 September 1939? Which European nation consistently demanded bits of its neighbours and engineered opportunities to grab them? For the historically illiterate apologists - it's located in Central Europe, used to be larger, has a ridiculous law concerning the brewing of beer, and had done to them what they did to others earlier and didn't like it.

Hans · 23rd November 2020, 08:52 PM

Saggy seems to be running his own narrative and won't answer questions - this is just his personal blog to promote, 'Hitler was nice guy whom the English and Jews tormented in attacking everyone and it wasn't really his fault'.

One fact Saggy would agree with is that Hitler by his decisions killed:

5,300,000 German service men not to count the 500,000 thousand or so German civilians killed in the war and an addditional 200,000 disabled Germans killed by Action T4, and perhaps 300,000 or more sent to die for political reasons in their many jails. So that makes 6,300,000 Germans killed because Hitler wanted to take land in East.

marting · 23rd November 2020, 09:31 PM

Worth mentioning is that while the UK and France declared War on Germany in response to their invasion of Poland the USA stood back. There was considerable resistance in the USA to involvement in another European war after their experience 20 years earlier.

To the degree that even after Japan bombed Pearl harbor bringing the USA to war with Japan, the USA did not enter the European war until after Hitler declared war in support of its Axis ally. It was not bound to do so by treaty. The USA quickly realigned its forces towards Europe. Good thing too otherwise those of us in the USA might be speaking German.

i recommend Richard J. Evan's trilogy which includes how Hitler came to power. The political dynamics within Germany in the 20's and 30's is both fascinating and disturbing.

CaptainHowdy · 23rd November 2020, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading?

There were discussions between the Soviets, Poles, French and British. But it was the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact with it's secret protocol to conquer and divide Poland that gave Hitler the assurance he need to invade Poland without Soviet interference (because they were in on the deal)

Quote:

You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However....
"Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol"

I didnt say that Russia's invasion of Poland triggered any Anglo-Polish Agreement. I was not aware of any secret protocol that stipulated that France and Britain would fight to preserve Polish sovereignty but only if it was Germany that threatened that sovereignty. I was under the impression that Britain and France were taking a pro-Polish moral high roadk when they were actually anti-German. That does explain why neither country did anything to stop the Soviets when they dismembered and annexed Polish territory in 1939, why they didn't demand the restoration of Polish sovereignty in 1945 and why they only meekly protested the imprisonment of the London-based Polish government in exile or turned a blind eye to what happened at Katyn.

It's more complicated than I realized.

CaptainHowdy · 23rd November 2020, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along!

It's not quite that simple. World War 2 is an event that people really want to reduce to a black/white, good/evil, right/wrong dichotomy. But like all historical events, there are subtleties and nuances involved.

CaptainHowdy · 23rd November 2020, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

"Pat Buchanan insists controversial book not pro-Hitler"
https://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/.../buchanan.GOP/

.....or maybe some quotes from Pat Buchanan

“If you want to know ethnicity and power in the United States Senate, 13 members of the Senate are Jewish folks who are from 2 percent of the population. That is where real power is at….” - Pat Buchanan

That would mean that 13% of the US senators are Jewish. That's more than 2% but it's not a gross over representation. This would only be a problem for people playing the equity and inclusion racial identity political game. If there's a problem with not enough Senators being African-American then, yes, obviously there are too many Jews. Otherwise, so what?

Quote:

“If [Elena] Kagan is confirmed, Jews, who represent less than 2 percent of the U.S. population, will have 33 percent of the Supreme Court seats. Is this Democrats’ idea of diversity?” - Pat Buchanan

Again, not a problem unless the under representation of certain groups is a problem.

Quote:

"The problem is: Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." - Pat Buchanan (as a holocaust denier)

You don't need carbon monoxide to kill people. Not enough oxygen will do the trick. But that's a statement about chemistry/biology, not history.

Quote:

"Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier’s soldier in the Great War, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him." - Pat Buchanan (as pro Hitler)

Hitler did show courage under fire and he was very good at public speaking. Charles Manson had a remarkable ability to persuade people to accept his ideas. Osama bin Laden was an outisde-the-box marketing genius who was able to create awareness of his product more quickly and more extensively than any advertising campaign Don Draper could have developed.

People who do very bad things are often very intelligent, very likeable, very charming people. If they don't have any redeeming qualities they are probably not going to get to a position where they can do very bad things.

Quote:

"In the late 1940’s and 1950’s…race was never a preoccupation with us, we rarely thought about it….There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The ‘Negroes’ of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours. - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)

Racial politics and an obsession with racial identity does create more problems than it solves.

Quote:

“Mexicans not only come from another culture, but millions are of another race. History and experience teach us that different races are far more difficult to assimilate. The sixty million Americans who claim German ancestry are fully assimilated, while millions from Africa and Asia are still not full participants in American society.” - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)

People from a similar background do get along with each other much more easily than people who are dissimilar. Diversity and multiculturalism are not strengths. If they were, Israel and China would be the weakest nations in the world.

But none of this refutes Pat Buchanan's book. You need to engage with the ideas in the book to do that.

Matthew Ellard · 23rd November 2020, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

But it was the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact with it's secret protocol to conquer and divide Poland that gave Hitler the assurance he need to invade Poland without Soviet interference (because they were in on the deal)

No. The French and British asked Poland to allow the Russians to enter Poland first. Poland refused. Then Germany approached Russia.

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

I was not aware of any secret protocol that stipulated that France and Britain would fight to preserve Polish sovereignty but only if it was Germany that threatened that sovereignty.

Fair enough. that's why I mentioned Halifax's communications.

I have informed Saggy, the same thing over and over again, for over a decade, on the Skeptic Society's anti holocaust denial subforum. He simply ignores facts and repeats "1970s" Holocaust denial propaganda.

Matthew Ellard · 23rd November 2020, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

But none of this refutes Pat Buchanan's book. You need to engage with the ideas in the book to do that.

Pat Buchanan is a racist, antisemitic, Hitler supporter. You are not arguing with me but actual quotes from Pat Buchanan, Saggy's hero.

The reason Treblinka II used a diesel engine was to pressure the oxygen out of the gas chambers and suffocate the Jews they were executing.

Why do you think Pat Buchanan is saying diesel engines don't kill?

Matthew Ellard · 24th November 2020, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

It's not quite that simple. World War 2 is an event that people really want to reduce to a black/white, good/evil, right/wrong dichotomy. But like all historical events, there are subtleties and nuances involved.

Do historians, both post-war Axis and post war Allied, claim Germany didn't start the war?

EvilBiker · 24th November 2020, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak

Can't Putsch This.

Sorry, I'll get me coat.

Der Hammer!

Carrot Flower King · 24th November 2020, 05:04 AM

Saggy, having quoted Wyndham Lewis from 1936, might like to note that by 1937 he'd changed his mind about Hitler and the Nazis, was critical of their anti-semitism and over the next few years moved to condemning fascism more than he did communism...

Carrot Flower King · 24th November 2020, 05:07 AM

Oh, maybe Saggy could also explain why, in the pre-WW II 1930s, that peace-loving Hitler and his hippy-dippy Nazi chums had a bunch of folk in Spain, fighting on the side of the fascist Franco and practising a number of the tactics later used against Poland, France, Belgium and the like? Condor Legion mean anything to you?

malbui · 24th November 2020, 05:29 AM

Every time a Nazi sympathiser pops up on this forum and elsewhere I hope for an explanation why Hitler and his peace-loving buddies found it necessary to occupy my country for so long and torture, deport and murder so many of its citizens.

Dave Rogers · 24th November 2020, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by malbui

Every time a Nazi sympathiser pops up on this forum and elsewhere I hope for an explanation why Hitler and his peace-loving buddies found it necessary to occupy my country for so long and torture, deport and murder so many of its citizens.

It's especially telling that you haven't particularly narrowed down which country that is.

Dave

malbui · 24th November 2020, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

It's especially telling that you haven't particularly narrowed down which country that is.

We are well aware that we were far from having a monopoly on suffering at that time.

Dave Rogers · 24th November 2020, 06:49 AM

Originally Posted by malbui

We are well aware that we were far from having a monopoly on suffering at that time.

Yeah, funny how so many countries turn out to be the one that started it.

Dave

Jack by the hedge · 24th November 2020, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate.

Indeed, though it's a decent first approximation.

And it looks like laser-focused precision compared to clowns trying to imply the Jews were responsible for it.

Saggy · 24th November 2020, 08:06 AM

Let's see what Hitler had to say in response to a telegram from Roosevelt warning him not to attach a list of countries, fortunately we have video of part of his speech to the Reichstag .... "Hitler ridiculed the president with withering sarcasm"
https://www.bitchute.com/video/FRTJ5IzO8fR5/

Roosevelt's telegram: "Are you willing to give assurance that your armed forces will not attack or invade the territory of possessions of the following independent nations: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain and Ireland, ..., Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Iraq, The Arabias, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and Iran."

Hitler replied to Roosevelt as part of a lengthy speech to the Reichtag on April 28, transcript at http://comicism.tripod.com/390428.html, that included the following:

Quote:

In reply to this it must be said in the first place that this fear of war has undoubtedly existed among mankind from time immemorial, and justifiably so.

For instance, after the Peace Treaty of Versailles, 14 wars were waged between 1919 and 1938 alone, in none of which Germany was concerned, but in which states of the "Western Hemisphere" in whose name President Roosevelt also speaks, were certainly concerned.

In addition there were in the same period 26 violent interventions and sanctions carried through by means of bloodshed and force. Germany played no part whatever in these either.

The United States alone has carried out military interventions in six cases since 1918. Since 1918 Soviet Russia has engaged in 10 wars and military actions involving force and bloodshed. Again, Germany was concerned in none of these, nor was she. responsible for any of these.

It would therefore be a mistake in my eyes to assume that the fear of war inspiring European and non-European nations can at this present time be directly traced back to actual wars at all."

.........

"If the cry of "Never another, Munich" is raised in the world today, this simply confirms the fact that the peaceful solution of the problem appeared to be the most awkward thing that ever happened in the eyes of those warmongers. They are sorry no blood was shed-not their 'blood, to be sure-for these agitators are, of course, never to be found where shots are being fired, but only where money is being made. No, it is the blood of many nameless soldiers!

Hitler publicized his offer to Poland in the same speech:

Quote:

I have had the following proposal submitted to the Polish Government:-
(1) Danzig returns as a Free State into the framework of the German Reich.
(2) Germany receives a route through the Corridor and a railway line at her own disposal possessing the same extraterritorial status for Germany as the Corridor itself has for Poland.
In return, Germany is prepared:-
(1) To recognize all Polish economic rights in Danzig.
(2) To ensure for Poland a free harbour in Danzig of any size desired which would have completely free access to the sea.
(3) To accept at the same time the present boundaries between Germany and Poland and to regard them as ultimate.
(4) To conclude a twenty-five-year non-aggression treaty with Poland, a treaty therefore which would extend far beyond the duration of my own life.
(5) To guarantee the independence of the Slovak State by Germany, Poland and Hungary jointly-which means in practice the renunciation of any unilateral German hegemony in this territory.

The Polish Government have rejected my offer and have only declared that they are prepared (1) to negotiate concerning the question of a substitute for the Commissioner of the League of Nations and (2) to consider facilities for the transit traffic through the Corridor."

Also

Quote:

"But I must also draw Mr. Roosevelt's attention to one or two mistakes in history. He mentions Ireland, for instance, and asks for a statement to the effect that Germany will not attack Ireland. Now, I have just read a speech delivered by Mr. de Valera, the Irish Taoiseach (Prime Minister), in which strangely enough, and contrary to Mr. Roosevelt's opinion, he does not charge Germany with oppressing Ireland, but reproaches England with subjecting Ireland to continuous aggression.

With all due respect to Mr. Roosevelt's insight into the needs and cares of other countries, it may nevertheless be assumed that the Irish Taoiseach would be more familiar with the dangers which threaten his country than would the President of the United States.

Similarly the fact has obviously escaped Mr. Roosevelt's notice that Palestine is at present occupied not by German troops but by the English; and that the country is undergoing restriction of its liberty by the most brutal resort to force, is being robbed of its independence and is suffering the cruelest maltreatment for the benefit of Jewish interlopers. The Arabs living in that country would therefore certainly not have complained to Mr. Roosevelt of German aggression, but they are voicing a con.......

Foster Zygote · 24th November 2020, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by malbui

To be fair an old teacher of mine once did accidentally drive his tank over the border into a neighbouring country. It didn't really count as an invasion, though, as they only stopped long enough to buy cigarettes before turning around and sneaking back over the border.

That sounds like the infamous Urban Assault Vehicle incident.

Hans · 24th November 2020, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Saggy

deleted

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBeEA9qVAAAThzr.jpg

Carrot Flower King · 24th November 2020, 11:57 AM

Aaaaah, so Saggy doesn't want to talk about Spain and the Condor Legion and the other peace-loving hippy Nazis who didn't really do any fighting on the side of some fellow fascists...

Just on holiday on the Costa Brava and had a drunken squabble with some locals about the noises their Ju-87s made?

Guernica was just some town planning which went wrong?

Really, Saggy, as a Nazi apologist, Hitler fanboi, defender of anti-semites, distorter of recent European history and the rest of your obnoxious schtick, you really need to try harder, as you are laughably poor so far.

Hans · 24th November 2020, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Aaaaah, so Saggy doesn't want to talk about Spain and the Condor Legion and the other peace-loving hippy Nazis who didn't really do any fighting on the side of some fellow fascists...

Just on holiday on the Costa Brava and had a drunken squabble with some locals about the noises their Ju-87s made?

Guernica was just some town planning which went wrong?

Really, Saggy, as a Nazi apologist, Hitler fanboi, defender of anti-semites, distorter of recent European history and the rest of your obnoxious schtick, you really need to try harder, as you are laughably poor so far.

Par for the course. He's just pretending to care now, he is nearing his Anti-semitic retirement age and looking forward to retiring to his SS inspired group home and watching replays of the Nuremberg rallies and singing Horst Wessel and Vorwarts! Vowarts! in the evening.

Lothian · 24th November 2020, 02:47 PM

Great thread Saggy. The internet is full of WW sites that tell you exactly what happened. Tired, and boring. The idea to start a thread where you deliberately make up **** and post a load of bollocks is a refreshing change

The Common Potato · 24th November 2020, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

Being a tad unfair aren’t you? I mean who hasn’t accidentally invaded a country or two? You’re out for a stroll with a few of your mates and “oops done it again”.

Wasn't William the Conqueror from somewhere near Brittany. Join the dots, people.

The Common Potato · 24th November 2020, 07:26 PM

Hitler does remind me a little of some conspiracy theorists. When you don't like the world as it is, make up an alternative that makes sense in your own mind.

dudalb · 24th November 2020, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. .

Weel, you have to give Japan, Hitler's "Honorary Aryan" buddies, the credit for starting WW2 in the Far East.

Hans · 25th November 2020, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Weel, you have to give Japan, Hitler's "Honorary Aryan" buddies, the credit for starting WW2 in the Far East.

No it was the Chinese who 'provoked' the Japanese into attacking them starting in September of 1931.....darn Chinese. Because of them doing that THEY started the ball rolling on what would become WWII.

Ask Bubba he'll tell ya...

ponderingturtle · 25th November 2020, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Weel, you have to give Japan, Hitler's "Honorary Aryan" buddies, the credit for starting WW2 in the Far East.

I think Stalin deserves some credit as well, he was busy gobbling up eastern Europe before he learned what a promise from Hitler was worth. With maybe a footnote for Mussolini.

Their expansionist desires for territory were what started WWII.

CaptainHowdy · 25th November 2020, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I think Stalin deserves some credit as well, he was busy gobbling up eastern Europe before he learned what a promise from Hitler was worth. With maybe a footnote for Mussolini.

Their expansionist desires for territory were what started WWII.

Originally Posted by dudalb

Weel, you have to give Japan, Hitler's "Honorary Aryan" buddies, the credit for starting WW2 in the Far East.

Originally Posted by Hans

No it was the Chinese who 'provoked' the Japanese into attacking them starting in September of 1931.....darn Chinese. Because of them doing that THEY started the ball rolling on what would become WWII.

Ask Bubba he'll tell ya...

I detect a note of sarcasm. But every one of those statements is true. As I said earlier, it's complicated.

sackett · 25th November 2020, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

I detect a note of sarcasm. But every one of those statements is true. As I said earlier, it's complicated.

Really? Tell us how the Chinese drove the Island Dwarves* into the necessity of invading them.

* A Chinese term. I've also heard "Lemming people," but only from a Chinese professor living in the USA for many years.

Hans · 25th November 2020, 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy

I detect a note of sarcasm. But every one of those statements is true. As I said earlier, it's complicated.

Very much so but for every 'bad' thing that can be laid at the feet of the Allies (the USSR being a sad exception) far worse can be found in the camp of the Japanese, Italians and especially the Germans, and who drove this in Germany Hitler.

No Hitler* probably no WWII.

Probably a west vs Soviet war in the 50's though as communism spread throughout the world.

*a special award of shame to the French and British for NOT invading the Rhineland in 1936 - had they done so and shown strength against Germany early on - the war might have been avoided too.

23rd November 2020, 05:46 PM	#45
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431	Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading? You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However.... "Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol" Hitler had already primed the pump as it were by annexing the Sudetenland in October 1938 and then the rump of Czechoslovakia (except Slovak Republic) that begame a vassal of Germany - so his aggressive stance - as he had stated in MK had been recognized. This was after earlier annexing Austria. This was all agreed in with at the: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hossbach_Memorandum
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431

23rd November 2020, 05:53 PM	#47
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along! Yep they started WWII by beating Germany in WWI - all their fault. They were mean to Germany!!!
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431

23rd November 2020, 05:58 PM	#48
Saggy Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,804	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated. What's this ... ????? .... intelligent life discovered on SI ??????? It's an incredible story for sure, and well told I believe, in Buchanan's book, for a 1-hour synopsys see ... https://www.bitchute.com/video/ALp2GkpcuzZi/ But really, the book is must reading. Of course Buchanan's view is limited, here is an indication of what was really going on in Britain, and that we know next to nothing about ....truly a remarkable book, 'Left Wings Over Europe, or How to Make a War About Nothing': written British man of letters Wyndham Lewis in 1936 !!! Quote: As far as Great Britain is concerned, there is, in 1936, not a shadow of a reason for a war with anybody. It is because that there is no concrete reason that abstract reasons have had to be thought up and trotted out. ... Nationalism may be superseded by the issue between different forms of political structure, between parliamentarism, fascism, and Bolshevism. .... Parliamentarism and Bolshevism seem to feel a remarkable affinity for one another, if for no other reason than that they are both consumed with an equal hatred of fascism. ... No British statesman has ever desired a war with Germany. But they have apparently come to regard themselves as committed to a policy which is violently determined to rid Europe of Hitler. And they are well aware that that cannot be effected without the risk of another world-war. It is not so much ‘fascist dictatorship’ that excites them — for after all they left Mussolini in complete peace for a decade. Neither does Dictatorship , in itself, excite them so much as all that — even accompanied by a permanent Reign of Terror and the massacre of millions of people. For Soviet Russia has been left undisturbed. No, it can only be something about the internal regime of Adolf Hitler that excites in them this implacable mood. ... The Franco-Soviet pact has been ratified and it is highly probable that a Rumano-Soviet pact, on the lines of the military pact between the Soviet and Czechoslovakia, will be signed in the near future. The Austrian Government (which represents a fantastically small fraction of the people of Austria) seems to be moving towards an entente with the Little Entente. So the game of ‘encirclement’ goes on: and all these arrangements — carried on in every case over the heads and usually in contradiction to the wishes of the people — are made possible, and constantly stimulated by British and French gold. The remarks which I have quoted from the Morning Post mean, in plain language, that Great Britain is about to arm the Soviet against Germany. (Marshal Tukachevski stopped behind in England after the funeral of King George to go round the British armament factories to pick his tanks and guns.) There have constantly been rumours of a fifty million pounds British loan to France. That, too, in plain language, is Great Britain arming France against ‘the Hun’ ... There is one country where the Englishman is certain of a warm welcome: there is one country whose government never ceases to proffer friendship, and to be accommodating and polite, and that is Germany. Year in and year out, like a love-sick supplicant, Herr Hitler pays his court to the haughty Britannia. Every insult that can be invented even by the resourceful Mr. Churchill is tamely swallowed, every rebuff of Mr. Baldwin’s, every sneer of Mr. Eden, is meekly accepted, by this pertinacious suitor!
Saggy Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,804	__________________ "The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid."

23rd November 2020, 07:35 PM	#50
Border Reiver Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 6,685	Originally Posted by Saggy Of course Buchanan's view is limited, here is an indication of what was really going on in Britain, and that we know next to nothing about ....truly a remarkable book, 'Left Wings Over Europe, or How to Make a War About Nothing': written British man of letters Wyndham Lewis in 1936 !!! Now, what happened between 1936 and 1 September 1939? Which European nation consistently demanded bits of its neighbours and engineered opportunities to grab them? For the historically illiterate apologists - it's located in Central Europe, used to be larger, has a ridiculous law concerning the brewing of beer, and had done to them what they did to others earlier and didn't like it.
	__________________ Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?

23rd November 2020, 08:52 PM	#51
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431	Saggy seems to be running his own narrative and won't answer questions - this is just his personal blog to promote, 'Hitler was nice guy whom the English and Jews tormented in attacking everyone and it wasn't really his fault'. One fact Saggy would agree with is that Hitler by his decisions killed: 5,300,000 German service men not to count the 500,000 thousand or so German civilians killed in the war and an addditional 200,000 disabled Germans killed by Action T4, and perhaps 300,000 or more sent to die for political reasons in their many jails. So that makes 6,300,000 Germans killed because Hitler wanted to take land in East.
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431

23rd November 2020, 03:57 PM	#41
Matthew Ellard Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,803	Originally Posted by Saggy Jews as Marxists - Pssstt Saggy.......Stalin trained at an Orthodox Christian Seminary in Tiflis. You keep pretending you forgot that.

23rd November 2020, 03:58 PM	#42
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 10,787	Originally Posted by Saggy And he was right on all counts. LOL.

23rd November 2020, 04:46 PM	#43
CaptainHowdy Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,649	Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser Yes, neo-nazies do like falsifying the history of WW2 and trying to absolve one of the largest mass murderers and monsters of the history of mankind. But I'm sorry, Hitler was a warmonger who willingly and for his own evil gains started WW2 . Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany conspired together to conquer Poland and take back the parts of Poland that had been taken away from Germany and Russia after World War 1 to recreate the Polish nation. On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. Poland surrendered and each power annexed the territory that had been previously agreed upon. Great Britain and France had pledged to support Poland if her sovereignty was attacked. So after Germany invaded Poland (but before the Soviet Union did), they declared war on Germany, turning a regional conflict into a world war. The Soviet Union's role as an aggressor was quietly forgotten after the Soviet Union was pushed into an alliance with Great Britain and the United States by Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. The funny thing is that Great Britain and France agreed to support the Polish nation if it was threatened by an external foe. That was the stated reason for the declaration of war on Germany. But neither country declared war on the Soviet Union when that country did exactly what Nazi Germany had done. And after the war, the Soviet Union controlled internal Polish politics to the extent that the country never really gained sovereignty until 1989 anyway. So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated.

23rd November 2020, 05:09 PM	#44
Matthew Ellard Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,803	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. . Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading? You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However.... "Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol"

23rd November 2020, 05:46 PM	#46
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 31,397	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany conspired together to conquer Poland and take back the parts of Poland that had been taken away from Germany and Russia after World War 1 to recreate the Polish nation. On Sept. 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland from the West. A few weeks later, the Soviet Union invaded from the East. Poland surrendered and each power annexed the territory that had been previously agreed upon. Great Britain and France had pledged to support Poland if her sovereignty was attacked. So after Germany invaded Poland (but before the Soviet Union did), they declared war on Germany, turning a regional conflict into a world war. The Soviet Union's role as an aggressor was quietly forgotten after the Soviet Union was pushed into an alliance with Great Britain and the United States by Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. The funny thing is that Great Britain and France agreed to support the Polish nation if it was threatened by an external foe. That was the stated reason for the declaration of war on Germany. But neither country declared war on the Soviet Union when that country did exactly what Nazi Germany had done. And after the war, the Soviet Union controlled internal Polish politics to the extent that the country never really gained sovereignty until 1989 anyway. So, did Nazi Germany start World War 2? Well, it's complicated. Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along!

23rd November 2020, 06:36 PM	#49
Matthew Ellard Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,803	Originally Posted by Saggy It's an incredible story for sure, and well told I believe, in (Pat) Buchanan's book, for a 1-hour synopsys (sic) see .. "Pat Buchanan insists controversial book not pro-Hitler" https://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/.../buchanan.GOP/ .....or maybe some quotes from Pat Buchanan “If you want to know ethnicity and power in the United States Senate, 13 members of the Senate are Jewish folks who are from 2 percent of the population. That is where real power is at….” - Pat Buchanan “If [Elena] Kagan is confirmed, Jews, who represent less than 2 percent of the U.S. population, will have 33 percent of the Supreme Court seats. Is this Democrats’ idea of diversity?” - Pat Buchanan "The problem is: Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." - Pat Buchanan (as a holocaust denier) "Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier’s soldier in the Great War, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him." - Pat Buchanan (as pro Hitler) "In the late 1940’s and 1950’s…race was never a preoccupation with us, we rarely thought about it….There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The ‘Negroes’ of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours. - Pat Buchanan (as a racist) “Mexicans not only come from another culture, but millions are of another race. History and experience teach us that different races are far more difficult to assimilate. The sixty million Americans who claim German ancestry are fully assimilated, while millions from Africa and Asia are still not full participants in American society.” - Pat Buchanan (as a racist)

23rd November 2020, 09:31 PM	#52
marting Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,050	Worth mentioning is that while the UK and France declared War on Germany in response to their invasion of Poland the USA stood back. There was considerable resistance in the USA to involvement in another European war after their experience 20 years earlier. To the degree that even after Japan bombed Pearl harbor bringing the USA to war with Japan, the USA did not enter the European war until after Hitler declared war in support of its Axis ally. It was not bound to do so by treaty. The USA quickly realigned its forces towards Europe. Good thing too otherwise those of us in the USA might be speaking German. i recommend Richard J. Evan's trilogy which includes how Hitler came to power. The political dynamics within Germany in the 20's and 30's is both fascinating and disturbing.
marting Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,050	__________________ Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.

23rd November 2020, 10:09 PM	#53
CaptainHowdy Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,649	Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard Tell us about the Soviet, British and French alliance negotiations that predate that. Did not Poland refuse to have Soviet troops in Eastern Poland to stop Germany invading? There were discussions between the Soviets, Poles, French and British. But it was the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact with it's secret protocol to conquer and divide Poland that gave Hitler the assurance he need to invade Poland without Soviet interference (because they were in on the deal) Quote: You claim Russia's invasion of Poland also triggered the Anglo-Polish Agreement. However.... "Foreign Secretary Lord Halifax responded that the obligation of British Government towards Poland arising out of the Anglo-Polish Agreement was restricted to Germany, according to the first clause of the secret protocol" I didnt say that Russia's invasion of Poland triggered any Anglo-Polish Agreement. I was not aware of any secret protocol that stipulated that France and Britain would fight to preserve Polish sovereignty but only if it was Germany that threatened that sovereignty. I was under the impression that Britain and France were taking a pro-Polish moral high roadk when they were actually anti-German. That does explain why neither country did anything to stop the Soviets when they dismembered and annexed Polish territory in 1939, why they didn't demand the restoration of Polish sovereignty in 1945 and why they only meekly protested the imprisonment of the London-based Polish government in exile or turned a blind eye to what happened at Katyn. It's more complicated than I realized.

23rd November 2020, 10:16 PM	#54
CaptainHowdy Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,649	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop Well, the blindfold has been lifted from my eyes, it was France and Britain to blame all along! It's not quite that simple. World War 2 is an event that people really want to reduce to a black/white, good/evil, right/wrong dichotomy. But like all historical events, there are subtleties and nuances involved.

23rd November 2020, 11:40 PM	#55
CaptainHowdy Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,649	Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard "Pat Buchanan insists controversial book not pro-Hitler" https://edition.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/.../buchanan.GOP/ .....or maybe some quotes from Pat Buchanan “If you want to know ethnicity and power in the United States Senate, 13 members of the Senate are Jewish folks who are from 2 percent of the population. That is where real power is at….” - Pat Buchanan That would mean that 13% of the US senators are Jewish. That's more than 2% but it's not a gross over representation. This would only be a problem for people playing the equity and inclusion racial identity political game. If there's a problem with not enough Senators being African-American then, yes, obviously there are too many Jews. Otherwise, so what? Quote: “If [Elena] Kagan is confirmed, Jews, who represent less than 2 percent of the U.S. population, will have 33 percent of the Supreme Court seats. Is this Democrats’ idea of diversity?” - Pat Buchanan Again, not a problem unless the under representation of certain groups is a problem. Quote: "The problem is: Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." - Pat Buchanan (as a holocaust denier) You don't need carbon monoxide to kill people. Not enough oxygen will do the trick. But that's a statement about chemistry/biology, not history. Quote: "Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier’s soldier in the Great War, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him." - Pat Buchanan (as pro Hitler) Hitler did show courage under fire and he was very good at public speaking. Charles Manson had a remarkable ability to persuade people to accept his ideas. Osama bin Laden was an outisde-the-box marketing genius who was able to create awareness of his product more quickly and more extensively than any advertising campaign Don Draper could have developed. People who do very bad things are often very intelligent, very likeable, very charming people. If they don't have any redeeming qualities they are probably not going to get to a position where they can do very bad things. Quote: "In the late 1940’s and 1950’s…race was never a preoccupation with us, we rarely thought about it….There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The ‘Negroes’ of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours. - Pat Buchanan (as a racist) Racial politics and an obsession with racial identity does create more problems than it solves. Quote: “Mexicans not only come from another culture, but millions are of another race. History and experience teach us that different races are far more difficult to assimilate. The sixty million Americans who claim German ancestry are fully assimilated, while millions from Africa and Asia are still not full participants in American society.” - Pat Buchanan (as a racist) People from a similar background do get along with each other much more easily than people who are dissimilar. Diversity and multiculturalism are not strengths. If they were, Israel and China would be the weakest nations in the world. But none of this refutes Pat Buchanan's book. You need to engage with the ideas in the book to do that.

23rd November 2020, 11:51 PM	#56
Matthew Ellard Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,803	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy But it was the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact with it's secret protocol to conquer and divide Poland that gave Hitler the assurance he need to invade Poland without Soviet interference (because they were in on the deal) No. The French and British asked Poland to allow the Russians to enter Poland first. Poland refused. Then Germany approached Russia. Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy I was not aware of any secret protocol that stipulated that France and Britain would fight to preserve Polish sovereignty but only if it was Germany that threatened that sovereignty. Fair enough. that's why I mentioned Halifax's communications. I have informed Saggy, the same thing over and over again, for over a decade, on the Skeptic Society's anti holocaust denial subforum. He simply ignores facts and repeats "1970s" Holocaust denial propaganda.

23rd November 2020, 11:58 PM	#57
Matthew Ellard Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,803	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy But none of this refutes Pat Buchanan's book. You need to engage with the ideas in the book to do that. Pat Buchanan is a racist, antisemitic, Hitler supporter. You are not arguing with me but actual quotes from Pat Buchanan, Saggy's hero. The reason Treblinka II used a diesel engine was to pressure the oxygen out of the gas chambers and suffocate the Jews they were executing. Why do you think Pat Buchanan is saying diesel engines don't kill?

24th November 2020, 12:00 AM	#58
Matthew Ellard Illuminator Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,803	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy It's not quite that simple. World War 2 is an event that people really want to reduce to a black/white, good/evil, right/wrong dichotomy. But like all historical events, there are subtleties and nuances involved. Do historians, both post-war Axis and post war Allied, claim Germany didn't start the war?

24th November 2020, 01:08 AM	#59
EvilBiker Spectral Challenger Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Berlin Posts: 1,361	Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak Can't Putsch This. Sorry, I'll get me coat. Der Hammer!
	__________________ Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip.

24th November 2020, 05:04 AM	#60
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 537	Saggy, having quoted Wyndham Lewis from 1936, might like to note that by 1937 he'd changed his mind about Hitler and the Nazis, was critical of their anti-semitism and over the next few years moved to condemning fascism more than he did communism...

24th November 2020, 05:07 AM	#61
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 537	Oh, maybe Saggy could also explain why, in the pre-WW II 1930s, that peace-loving Hitler and his hippy-dippy Nazi chums had a bunch of folk in Spain, fighting on the side of the fascist Franco and practising a number of the tactics later used against Poland, France, Belgium and the like? Condor Legion mean anything to you?

24th November 2020, 05:29 AM	#62
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,754	Every time a Nazi sympathiser pops up on this forum and elsewhere I hope for an explanation why Hitler and his peace-loving buddies found it necessary to occupy my country for so long and torture, deport and murder so many of its citizens.
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,754	__________________ "But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

24th November 2020, 06:16 AM	#63
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,249	Originally Posted by malbui Every time a Nazi sympathiser pops up on this forum and elsewhere I hope for an explanation why Hitler and his peace-loving buddies found it necessary to occupy my country for so long and torture, deport and murder so many of its citizens. It's especially telling that you haven't particularly narrowed down which country that is. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

24th November 2020, 06:33 AM	#64
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,754	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers It's especially telling that you haven't particularly narrowed down which country that is. We are well aware that we were far from having a monopoly on suffering at that time.
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,754	__________________ "But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

24th November 2020, 06:49 AM	#65
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,249	Originally Posted by malbui We are well aware that we were far from having a monopoly on suffering at that time. Yeah, funny how so many countries turn out to be the one that started it. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

24th November 2020, 07:20 AM	#66
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 10,787	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. Indeed, though it's a decent first approximation. And it looks like laser-focused precision compared to clowns trying to imply the Jews were responsible for it.

24th November 2020, 08:06 AM	#67
Saggy Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,804	Let's see what Hitler had to say in response to a telegram from Roosevelt warning him not to attach a list of countries, fortunately we have video of part of his speech to the Reichstag .... "Hitler ridiculed the president with withering sarcasm" https://www.bitchute.com/video/FRTJ5IzO8fR5/ Roosevelt's telegram: "Are you willing to give assurance that your armed forces will not attack or invade the territory of possessions of the following independent nations: Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, The Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain and Ireland, ..., Russia, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, Iraq, The Arabias, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and Iran." Hitler replied to Roosevelt as part of a lengthy speech to the Reichtag on April 28, transcript at http://comicism.tripod.com/390428.html, that included the following: Quote: In reply to this it must be said in the first place that this fear of war has undoubtedly existed among mankind from time immemorial, and justifiably so. For instance, after the Peace Treaty of Versailles, 14 wars were waged between 1919 and 1938 alone, in none of which Germany was concerned, but in which states of the "Western Hemisphere" in whose name President Roosevelt also speaks, were certainly concerned. In addition there were in the same period 26 violent interventions and sanctions carried through by means of bloodshed and force. Germany played no part whatever in these either. The United States alone has carried out military interventions in six cases since 1918. Since 1918 Soviet Russia has engaged in 10 wars and military actions involving force and bloodshed. Again, Germany was concerned in none of these, nor was she. responsible for any of these. It would therefore be a mistake in my eyes to assume that the fear of war inspiring European and non-European nations can at this present time be directly traced back to actual wars at all." ......... "If the cry of "Never another, Munich" is raised in the world today, this simply confirms the fact that the peaceful solution of the problem appeared to be the most awkward thing that ever happened in the eyes of those warmongers. They are sorry no blood was shed-not their 'blood, to be sure-for these agitators are, of course, never to be found where shots are being fired, but only where money is being made. No, it is the blood of many nameless soldiers! Hitler publicized his offer to Poland in the same speech: Quote: I have had the following proposal submitted to the Polish Government:- (1) Danzig returns as a Free State into the framework of the German Reich. (2) Germany receives a route through the Corridor and a railway line at her own disposal possessing the same extraterritorial status for Germany as the Corridor itself has for Poland. In return, Germany is prepared:- (1) To recognize all Polish economic rights in Danzig. (2) To ensure for Poland a free harbour in Danzig of any size desired which would have completely free access to the sea. (3) To accept at the same time the present boundaries between Germany and Poland and to regard them as ultimate. (4) To conclude a twenty-five-year non-aggression treaty with Poland, a treaty therefore which would extend far beyond the duration of my own life. (5) To guarantee the independence of the Slovak State by Germany, Poland and Hungary jointly-which means in practice the renunciation of any unilateral German hegemony in this territory. The Polish Government have rejected my offer and have only declared that they are prepared (1) to negotiate concerning the question of a substitute for the Commissioner of the League of Nations and (2) to consider facilities for the transit traffic through the Corridor." Also Quote: "But I must also draw Mr. Roosevelt's attention to one or two mistakes in history. He mentions Ireland, for instance, and asks for a statement to the effect that Germany will not attack Ireland. Now, I have just read a speech delivered by Mr. de Valera, the Irish Taoiseach (Prime Minister), in which strangely enough, and contrary to Mr. Roosevelt's opinion, he does not charge Germany with oppressing Ireland, but reproaches England with subjecting Ireland to continuous aggression. With all due respect to Mr. Roosevelt's insight into the needs and cares of other countries, it may nevertheless be assumed that the Irish Taoiseach would be more familiar with the dangers which threaten his country than would the President of the United States. Similarly the fact has obviously escaped Mr. Roosevelt's notice that Palestine is at present occupied not by German troops but by the English; and that the country is undergoing restriction of its liberty by the most brutal resort to force, is being robbed of its independence and is suffering the cruelest maltreatment for the benefit of Jewish interlopers. The Arabs living in that country would therefore certainly not have complained to Mr. Roosevelt of German aggression, but they are voicing a con.......
Saggy Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,804	__________________ "The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid." Last edited by Saggy; 24th November 2020 at 08:09 AM.

24th November 2020, 08:40 AM	#68
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 17,565	Originally Posted by malbui To be fair an old teacher of mine once did accidentally drive his tank over the border into a neighbouring country. It didn't really count as an invasion, though, as they only stopped long enough to buy cigarettes before turning around and sneaking back over the border. That sounds like the infamous Urban Assault Vehicle incident.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

24th November 2020, 08:59 AM	#69
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431	Originally Posted by Saggy deleted https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBeEA9qVAAAThzr.jpg
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431

24th November 2020, 11:57 AM	#70
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 537	Aaaaah, so Saggy doesn't want to talk about Spain and the Condor Legion and the other peace-loving hippy Nazis who didn't really do any fighting on the side of some fellow fascists... Just on holiday on the Costa Brava and had a drunken squabble with some locals about the noises their Ju-87s made? Guernica was just some town planning which went wrong? Really, Saggy, as a Nazi apologist, Hitler fanboi, defender of anti-semites, distorter of recent European history and the rest of your obnoxious schtick, you really need to try harder, as you are laughably poor so far.

24th November 2020, 02:15 PM	#71
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Aaaaah, so Saggy doesn't want to talk about Spain and the Condor Legion and the other peace-loving hippy Nazis who didn't really do any fighting on the side of some fellow fascists... Just on holiday on the Costa Brava and had a drunken squabble with some locals about the noises their Ju-87s made? Guernica was just some town planning which went wrong? Really, Saggy, as a Nazi apologist, Hitler fanboi, defender of anti-semites, distorter of recent European history and the rest of your obnoxious schtick, you really need to try harder, as you are laughably poor so far. Par for the course. He's just pretending to care now, he is nearing his Anti-semitic retirement age and looking forward to retiring to his SS inspired group home and watching replays of the Nuremberg rallies and singing Horst Wessel and Vorwarts! Vowarts! in the evening.
Hans Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 8,431

24th November 2020, 02:47 PM	#72
Lothian should be banned Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside Posts: 15,944	Great thread Saggy. The internet is full of WW sites that tell you exactly what happened. Tired, and boring. The idea to start a thread where you deliberately make up **** and post a load of bollocks is a refreshing change

24th November 2020, 07:17 PM	#73
The Common Potato Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: The Scunthorpe Problem Posts: 352	Originally Posted by Darat Being a tad unfair aren’t you? I mean who hasn’t accidentally invaded a country or two? You’re out for a stroll with a few of your mates and “oops done it again”. Wasn't William the Conqueror from somewhere near Brittany. Join the dots, people.
	Last edited by The Common Potato; 24th November 2020 at 07:23 PM.

24th November 2020, 07:26 PM	#74
The Common Potato Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: The Scunthorpe Problem Posts: 352	Hitler does remind me a little of some conspiracy theorists. When you don't like the world as it is, make up an alternative that makes sense in your own mind.

24th November 2020, 11:22 PM	#75
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,979	Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy Saying that Nazi Germany is solely responsible for starting World War 2 isn't accurate. . Weel, you have to give Japan, Hitler's "Honorary Aryan" buddies, the credit for starting WW2 in the Far East.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.