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Old 13th October 2017, 05:58 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by crackers View Post
I assume you gave Oystein his title in honor of his general rudity rather than for any specific act of rudity.
Crackers the Accurate.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:49 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Poor Karl der Gross (as Meadmaker calls him in the OP -- I haven't seen that usage before) wasn't so lucky, apparently. Still his other (and better known) name gives no hint of his schoolboy nickname.
He spoke a language that was much more like German or Dutch than like French, so he was probably Karl in his lifetime. In Germany he is Karl der Grosse. Other northern European lands use their own slight variations.


On official documents and coins, which form the hard record of his lifetime, he went by his latin name, Carolus.
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Old 13th October 2017, 06:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
He spoke a language that was much more like German or Dutch than like French, so he was probably Karl in his lifetime. In Germany he is Karl der Grosse. Other northern European lands use their own slight variations.


On official documents and coins, which form the hard record of his lifetime, he went by his latin name, Carolus.
Funny bit of poorly substantiated trivia: He allegedly owned an asbestos tablecloth.
He used to wow his dinner guests by throwing the dirty tablecloth into the hearth after dinner, and pulling it out unharmed, and cleaned by the fire.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:28 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Indeed.

Who was the "terrible" English one? ( I mean, officially rather than just objectively).

As for the Romans, isn't pompaeius Magnus (Pompey the great) or Fabius Maximus a nearer translation of great than Augustus?
I read that in Pompey's case, it may have started with a sarcastic comment by Sulla.
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Old 13th October 2017, 07:32 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I read that in Pompey's case, it may have started with a sarcastic comment by Sulla.
That one goes around, but I've never read it in any serious scholarship like Goldsworthy's Caesar: Life of a Colossus.
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Old 13th October 2017, 02:41 PM   #46
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I thought it was Alfred the Grate because it was his job to light the fire.
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:11 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I thought it was Alfred the Grate because it was his job to light the fire.
That was just a side gig.
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Old 14th October 2017, 05:48 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Funny bit of poorly substantiated trivia: He allegedly owned an asbestos tablecloth.
He used to wow his dinner guests by throwing the dirty tablecloth into the hearth after dinner, and pulling it out unharmed, and cleaned by the fire.

That’s gross, sure, but only borderline. More weird than gross per se. Are you sure there are no farts in that story?


ETA : It’s curious, isn’t it, how words signifying a large size generally stand tall and look great in our language? Offhand I can think of no other word, other than “gross”, where we impute a less than complimentary meaning to a word derived etymologically from big-ness. (‘High’ is only tangential, and not really derogatory as such.) I haven’t heard of any personage referred to as Something-Or-Other The Stout, but even that direct reference to horizontal (as opposed to vertical) size could conceivably have been tagged on as a compliment rather than otherwise. After all literally calling someone fat can definitely be thought of as insulting, and no one likes being overweight, so why don’t we at least have words that derive from ‘fat’ or ‘obese’ or ‘massive’, that have (like ‘gross’) gone on to take on uncomplimentary senses and meanings in other than directly etymologically derived ways? (Or perhaps there are such words, and I can’t think of them?)


Edited again : Just thought of ‘bloated’. But no, not really, that doesn’t focus so much on the size itself as, well, the bloating. Nor does ‘flabby’, which focuses on the flab rather than the size that the flab results in. Besides, non-literal use of both these words would be rare enough, and would in most cases probably sound forced. Neither of these is a ‘great’ example, not really.

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Old 14th October 2017, 08:15 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
I haven’t heard of any personage referred to as Something-Or-Other The Stout, but even that direct reference to horizontal (as opposed to vertical) size could conceivably have been tagged on as a compliment rather than otherwise. After all literally calling someone fat can definitely be thought of as insulting, and no one likes being overweight, so why don’t we at least have words that derive from ‘fat’ or ‘obese’ or ‘massive’, that have (like ‘gross’) gone on to take on uncomplimentary senses and meanings in other than directly etymologically derived ways? (Or perhaps there are such words, and I can’t think of them?)
There's Charles the Fat, great-grandson of Charlemagne. Louis VI of France was also nicknamed "the Fat". The wiki list of rulers of Saxony says Frederick August II was also nicknamed "the Fat", but that may have been only on the streets of Dresden; the lemma on the duke himself doesn't mention it.

ETA: a couple of more fat ones (yes, I looked those up):
Olaf II of Norway
Frederick William II "the Fat Scallywag" of Prussia

The epithet of the Burgundian dukes Philip the Bold and Charles the Bold in Dutch is translated as "de Stoute". That may sound odd to 21st Century ears, as the Dutch word "stout" nowadays is only used in the meaning of "naughty", while the meaning of "bold" is archaic (it never meant "fat" AFAIK).

This Dutch article lists some other funny nicknames rulers got. The list in English with wiki references:
Constantine V "the Dung-named" of Constantinople
Justinian II "the Slit-nosed" of Constantinople (severing someone's nose was a grave punishment in the Byzantine Empire, and this was done to him when he was deposed; he later regained the throne).
Ivaylo "the Cabbage" of Bulgaria
Alfonso IX "the Slobberer" of Léon
Władysław I "the Elbow-high" of Poland
Henry IV "the Impotent" of Castile
Timur "the Lame" (one of the biggest mass murderers in history had a limp. Goebbels too)
Charles II "the Bewitched" of Spain (really, after all inbreeding in the Habsburgs, do you wonder they produced an heir who had such a pronounced chin he couldn't normally eat?)
Louis V "the Do-Nothing" of France (the last Carolingian king of West Francia).
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Old 15th October 2017, 06:55 AM   #50
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I recalled another example of this. "Attila the Hun" (which when you think about it is a bit of a silly name). He was known in Latin as ATTILA HUNNUS REX, which could be read either "Hun-king Attila" or "King Attila the Hun".
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Old 15th October 2017, 07:11 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's Charles the Fat, great-grandson of Charlemagne. Louis VI of France was also nicknamed "the Fat". The wiki list of rulers of Saxony says Frederick August II was also nicknamed "the Fat", but that may have been only on the streets of Dresden; the lemma on the duke himself doesn't mention it.

ETA: a couple of more fat ones (yes, I looked those up):
Olaf II of Norway
Frederick William II "the Fat Scallywag" of Prussia

The epithet of the Burgundian dukes Philip the Bold and Charles the Bold in Dutch is translated as "de Stoute". That may sound odd to 21st Century ears, as the Dutch word "stout" nowadays is only used in the meaning of "naughty", while the meaning of "bold" is archaic (it never meant "fat" AFAIK).

This Dutch article lists some other funny nicknames rulers got. The list in English with wiki references:
Constantine V "the Dung-named" of Constantinople
Justinian II "the Slit-nosed" of Constantinople (severing someone's nose was a grave punishment in the Byzantine Empire, and this was done to him when he was deposed; he later regained the throne).
Ivaylo "the Cabbage" of Bulgaria
Alfonso IX "the Slobberer" of Léon
Władysław I "the Elbow-high" of Poland
Henry IV "the Impotent" of Castile
Timur "the Lame" (one of the biggest mass murderers in history had a limp. Goebbels too)
Charles II "the Bewitched" of Spain (really, after all inbreeding in the Habsburgs, do you wonder they produced an heir who had such a pronounced chin he couldn't normally eat?)
Louis V "the Do-Nothing" of France (the last Carolingian king of West Francia).

"Charles the Fat" was apparently also known as "Karl der Dicke"! Seriously inept PR team the poor man must have had!
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Old 15th October 2017, 07:52 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I recalled another example of this. "Attila the Hun" (which when you think about it is a bit of a silly name). He was known in Latin as ATTILA HUNNUS REX, which could be read either "Hun-king Attila" or "King Attila the Hun".
Wouldn't it be "Attila, king of the Huns"? I don't understand what's so silly about "Attila the Hun", or any variation of it.

If his own people called him "Attila the Hun" then it would be silly, but I don't see what's silly about Romans and their successors calling him that.
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Old 15th October 2017, 08:09 AM   #53
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Hägar the Horrible?

But they never made him king, did they?
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Old 15th October 2017, 08:09 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Wouldn't it be "Attila, king of the Huns"? I don't understand what's so silly about "Attila the Hun", or any variation of it.

If his own people called him "Attila the Hun" then it would be silly, but I don't see what's silly about Romans and their successors calling him that.
If we're translating literally, I believe "King of the Huns" would have been "Hunni Rex".

It's silly because it's not like there were a bunch of other people, least of all non-Huns, going by the name "Attila". We say "Basil the Macedonian" because there were all sorts of places in Greece he could've been from; we say Phillip the Arab because Arabia is not the first place you'd expected an emperor to be from.
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Old 15th October 2017, 08:33 AM   #55
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On a whim, I decided to see if google translate had something to say about Attila. Not that I could judge it right or wrong, because I know nothing of Latin, but I just thought I would try.

So, in goes "Attila, king of the Huns", and out came,......

Attila rex Hunnorum, erat occupatus.

Putting that back into Latin-English translation became

"Attila, king of the Huns, was too busy".

I guess these semantically clueless translations do have their limits.

Then, translating German to English, I put in Karl der Gross, which was translated as "Charles the great", but "Karl der Grosse" was translated "Charlemagne".
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Old 15th October 2017, 09:05 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
On a whim, I decided to see if google translate had something to say about Attila. Not that I could judge it right or wrong, because I know nothing of Latin, but I just thought I would try.

So, in goes "Attila, king of the Huns", and out came,......

Attila rex Hunnorum, erat occupatus.

Putting that back into Latin-English translation became

"Attila, king of the Huns, was too busy".

I guess these semantically clueless translations do have their limits.

Then, translating German to English, I put in Karl der Gross, which was translated as "Charles the great", but "Karl der Grosse" was translated "Charlemagne".
Interestingly Bing Translate translates both of Charles/Karl variants as "Karl the Great".
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Old 15th October 2017, 09:31 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
On a whim, I decided to see if google translate had something to say about Attila. Not that I could judge it right or wrong, because I know nothing of Latin, but I just thought I would try.

So, in goes "Attila, king of the Huns", and out came,......

Attila rex Hunnorum, erat occupatus.

Putting that back into Latin-English translation became

"Attila, king of the Huns, was too busy".

I guess these semantically clueless translations do have their limits.

Then, translating German to English, I put in Karl der Gross, which was translated as "Charles the great", but "Karl der Grosse" was translated "Charlemagne".
Keep in mind that I'm terrible at Latin grammar. I always have to double-check inflections when I translate something.

ETA: Looks lile Hunnus rex and Rex Hunnorum were both used (Hunni would be singular genitive, silly me). But the source I found Hunnus rex in also mentions "Theodosius Oriens Imperator", i.e. Eastern Emperor Theodosius. It's written with the same grammatical case (nominative). I think Hun-King or Hunnic king is therefore an appropriate translation.
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Old 15th October 2017, 05:11 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Keep in mind that I'm terrible at Latin grammar. I always have to double-check inflections when I translate something.

ETA: Looks lile Hunnus rex and Rex Hunnorum were both used (Hunni would be singular genitive, silly me). But the source I found Hunnus rex in also mentions "Theodosius Oriens Imperator", i.e. Eastern Emperor Theodosius. It's written with the same grammatical case (nominative). I think Hun-King or Hunnic king is therefore an appropriate translation.
German for Charlemagne is Karl der Große - with a ligature "ß" = "sz"there, second to last character, which is pronounced as a voiceless "s". If you don't have the ligature available in your character set, you may substitute "ss": Karl der Grosse. Has nothinf to do with modern English "gross" as in "outrageous". It just mean big or tall or great. "Karl der Gross" is simply wrong.

Karl der Dicke is correct German for Charles the Thick. Or Fat. Has nothing to do with modern English "dick" as in "penis".
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Old 15th October 2017, 09:56 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
German for Charlemagne is Karl der Große - with a ligature "ß" = "sz"there, second to last character, which is pronounced as a voiceless "s". If you don't have the ligature available in your character set, you may substitute "ss": Karl der Grosse. Has nothinf to do with modern English "gross" as in "outrageous". It just mean big or tall or great. "Karl der Gross" is simply wrong.

Karl der Dicke is correct German for Charles the Thick. Or Fat. Has nothing to do with modern English "dick" as in "penis".
Whereas "Donald Tiny Hands" actually means what it says. We'd be so much better at this royalty thing in America.

I mean, Elizabeth I and Elizabeth II. Really? They aren't related and their reigns are four centuries apart. What's wrong with Elizabeth Tudor and Elizabeth Windsor? Nothing, really. Plus, it'd put them into immediate perspective in terms of their historical eras. But the I and II are much better marketing, sorta like Superbowl XLII instead of Superbowl 42.

Not to mention that bit of patriarchal nonsense in having the House of Windsor, at all. The Windsors are direct descendants of Victoria and thus a straight line continuation of the Hannovers. But fin de siecle England wasn't ready to acknowledge the matrilineal ties so they went with Albert's house.
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Old 15th October 2017, 11:11 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
... But the [Elizabeth] I and II are much better marketing, sorta like Superbowl XLII instead of Superbowl 42.

Not to mention that bit of patriarchal nonsense in having the House of Windsor, at all. The Windsors are direct descendants of Victoria and thus a straight line continuation of the Hannovers. But fin de siecle England wasn't ready to acknowledge the matrilineal ties so they went with Albert's house.
1917 UK wasn't happy about having monarchs with German names during a war against Germany, so they changed it from Saxe-Coburg Gotha to the inpeccably English place name Windsor. Like Russia changing the name of its capital city in 1914 from the German "St Petersburg" to the Russian "Petrograd"

Liz II wasn't good marketing in Scotland because Liz I never reigned here. Post boxes in England have the regnal number II beside the Royal Cipher, but in Scotland they don't. They're marked only ER.
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Old 15th October 2017, 11:39 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
German for Charlemagne is Karl der Große - with a ligature "ß" = "sz"there, second to last character, which is pronounced as a voiceless "s". If you don't have the ligature available in your character set, you may substitute "ss": Karl der Grosse. Has nothinf to do with modern English "gross" as in "outrageous". It just mean big or tall or great. "Karl der Gross" is simply wrong.

Karl der Dicke is correct German for Charles the Thick. Or Fat. Has nothing to do with modern English "dick" as in "penis".
You probably meant this reply to someone else.

(Also, while ß is replaced with ss in tiny letters, I believe it's SZ in capitals, correct?)
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Old 16th October 2017, 02:07 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
You probably meant this reply to someone else.

(Also, while ß is replaced with ss in tiny letters, I believe it's SZ in capitals, correct?)
Yes to the first - my apology. Was supposed to address two or three previous posts at once and needed no quote, really.

There is no capital ß. This could only arise in all-caps, and today that would be KARL DER GROSSE. To modern readers of German, sz or SZ would appear slightly weird and invite wrong pronunciation. In Hungarian, "sz" indicates a voiceless s.
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Old 16th October 2017, 05:14 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
German for Charlemagne is Karl der Große - with a ligature "ß" = "sz"there, second to last character, which is pronounced as a voiceless "s". If you don't have the ligature available in your character set, you may substitute "ss": Karl der Grosse. Has nothinf to do with modern English "gross" as in "outrageous". It just mean big or tall or great. "Karl der Gross" is simply wrong.

Karl der Dicke is correct German for Charles the Thick. Or Fat. Has nothing to do with modern English "dick" as in "penis".

Afraid it's much too late for damage control now. We all know, now, that Karl Junior was fat, and grosse, and a dicke as well. And that he was descended from a long line of grosseness. No amount of umlauts and dipthongs can change that now. In fact, all that this belated PR spin has achieved is given poor Karl yet another title : Karl the Thick! *

"Thick", by the way, is a perfect example of what I was looking for, a word directly derived from big-ness, and carrying an unflattering meaning. Thanks!




*Attempt-at-weak-joke alert! (The earlier attempt seemed to have fallen flat, so ...)
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Old 16th October 2017, 02:49 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
ETA: Looks lile Hunnus rex and Rex Hunnorum were both used (Hunni would be singular genitive, silly me).
It would be grammatically correct, though the meaning would be a bit silly: "Attila, the King of the (single) Hun".
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Old 16th October 2017, 03:07 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
There is no capital ß. This could only arise in all-caps, and today that would be KARL DER GROSSE.
You're behind the times. German wiki:
Quote:
Seit dem 29. Juni 2017 ist das ẞ Bestandteil der amtlichen deutschen Rechtschreibung.
(since that date, the capital-ß is part of official German spelling).

Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
To modern readers of German, sz or SZ would appear slightly weird and invite wrong pronunciation. In Hungarian, "sz" indicates a voiceless s.
I seem to remember that my mom (who learned German before WW2) had learned to transcribe it as "sz". I think the "ss" transcription even more invites a wrong pronunciation, especially after the 1995 spelling reform which made the use of ß more logical. The letter ß not only indicates a voiceless /s/, but also that the preceding vowel is long; while "ss" also indicates a voiceless /s/ but after a short vowel; e.g., Straße has a long /a:/ sound, Strasser has a short /a/ sound. And while "ss" occurs frequently in German words, the letter combination "sz" does not.

ETA: that's not meant to argue that you're wrong about the transcription - I know "ss" is the official transcription if you have no ß available, or if you're Swiss and deny the letter ß exists - but with the reason you give.
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Old 17th October 2017, 09:17 AM   #66
TX50
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
But was it really with Alexander that the tradition began?
Bear in mind that there's actually no contemporary evidence that Alexander III was called "The great". The first reference to this is in a 2nd century BC work by a Roman comedy playwright.
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Old 17th October 2017, 10:31 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Bear in mind that there's actually no contemporary evidence that Alexander III was called "The great". The first reference to this is in a 2nd century BC work by a Roman comedy playwright.
Looks like you're right, Plautus is the guy.

"Alexandrum magnum atque Agathoclem aiunt maximas"

However, in Greek, he was referred to as "King Alexander" or "Great King Alexander" at least as late as Plutarch. I think we can safely say that "the Great" is a latinism by confusion with Latin cognomens.
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Old Yesterday, 08:21 AM   #68
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Stumbled upon another silly tautological juxtaposition - "Akbar the Great" of the Mughal empire. Yes, "Greater the Great".

I think Akbar was actually originally a honorific in "Jalal ud-din Muhammad Akbar"...
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Old Yesterday, 08:45 AM   #69
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Only Donald The Great can be The Great from now on. Everyone else gets downgraded to The Pretty Good, at most.
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