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Tags Capitol riot , donald trump , protest incidents , Trump controversies , Washington DC incidents

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Old 24th January 2021, 12:46 PM   #2681
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ON the issue of whether it's good or bad to charge people to the max, it's an interesting reminder, perhaps, of the difference between factions. Those who just left power, and those who rioted to prevent the leaving, were pretty notorious for prosecution that came at least uncomfortably close to barratry, recognizing that the poor can ill afford an arrest, and a record can be a disqualifier for the innocent as well as the guilty. That's of course aside from the more effective practice of just shooting them and lying about it. Their predecessors, the segregationists, were masters at this. If you can't murder them, at least round them all up and make them spend a night in jail. Even if you let them go in the morning, it's a shot across the bow.

I don't much like that approach, but it's ironic now that the people who will likely most benefit from good behavior will be the first, given any new opportunity, to abrogate it.
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Old 24th January 2021, 02:39 PM   #2682
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ugh, I must be a nerd because every time someone says "Q" I think of the guy from Star Trek who would play magical mischief on Picard.
Probably at least 50% of us here too
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Old 24th January 2021, 03:08 PM   #2683
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Probably at least 50% of us here too
Not all the time, here, but a few.
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Old 24th January 2021, 03:39 PM   #2684
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Probably at least 50% of us here too
I guess I'm in a minority because Q makes me think of trick watches and rocket-firing Aston Martins.
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Old 24th January 2021, 04:05 PM   #2685
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After WW2, the Allies had a policy of not trying to prosecute low-level camp operatives. There were too many of them, they were dull, easily led brutes, and they left little evidence that could be used readily.

The present case is different in that the dull etc. brutes have strewn clear, fresh evidence, irrefutable evidence, all over the map. And there aren't so many of them that the courts would be overwhelmed.

And catching the ones who try to hide is looking like good clean fun.

I particularly like when they burst into tears.
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Old 24th January 2021, 04:11 PM   #2686
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Like others and I have said; if this goes unanswered it becomes nothing but a training exercise. The fact that we're even asking the question is insane.
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Old 24th January 2021, 04:17 PM   #2687
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
After WW2, the Allies had a policy of not trying to prosecute low-level camp operatives. There were too many of them, they were dull, easily led brutes, and they left little evidence that could be used readily.

The present case is different in that the dull etc. brutes have strewn clear, fresh evidence, irrefutable evidence, all over the map. And there aren't so many of them that the courts would be overwhelmed.

And catching the ones who try to hide is looking like good clean fun.

I particularly like when they burst into tears.

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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 24th January 2021, 04:57 PM   #2688
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Like others and I have said; if this goes unanswered it becomes nothing but a training exercise. The fact that we're even asking the question is insane.
Absolutely.

The 120+ idiots who are up on Federal charges, the majority of which entered the Capitol, should have the book thrown at them. That goes for the ones who intended to harm people right down to the idiots who think they're innocent because they were let in or wandered in through an open door but didn't engage in any otherwise criminal behavior. Bull. ****. They went in to get some social media love by showing their friends they're one of the cool kids who stormed the Capitol. They need to be shown the error of their ways. Harshly.

Then there's the idiots out on the grounds who didn't go in yet assaulted police officers and others or committed acts of vandalism and other crimes. If any of those were arrested, throw the book at them.

Anyone else who were peacefully protesting but got arrested for civil disobedience? Take a hike.

What ever it takes, these idiots must be taught a hard lesson.
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Old 24th January 2021, 05:04 PM   #2689
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The people who actually crossed the threshold, who actually made it into the Capitol building, need to have the book thrown at them, charged with sedition and any other crimes they committed on an individual level.

The mob outside... fine let those who just stood there and cheered on the crowd plead out to "Disturbing the peace" or some other nonsense, save for those who on individual levels committed additional crimes.
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Old 24th January 2021, 05:07 PM   #2690
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Originally Posted by TJM View Post
Absolutely.

The 120+ idiots who are up on Federal charges, the majority of which entered the Capitol, should have the book thrown at them. That goes for the ones who intended to harm people right down to the idiots who think they're innocent because they were let in or wandered in through an open door but didn't engage in any otherwise criminal behavior. Bull. ****. They went in to get some social media love by showing their friends they're one of the cool kids who stormed the Capitol. They need to be shown the error of their ways. Harshly.

Then there's the idiots out on the grounds who didn't go in yet assaulted police officers and others or committed acts of vandalism and other crimes. If any of those were arrested, throw the book at them.

Anyone else who were peacefully protesting but got arrested for civil disobedience? Take a hike.

What ever it takes, these idiots must be taught a hard lesson.
Yes, but I'll take no pleasure in it.

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Old 25th January 2021, 02:17 AM   #2691
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
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This one's still the best:

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Old 25th January 2021, 02:20 AM   #2692
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While I agree that people shouldn't get away with insurrection and a message needs to be sent, I think it's also important not to set any precedents which could later be used against peaceful protesters.
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Old 25th January 2021, 02:24 AM   #2693
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
While I agree that people shouldn't get away with insurrection and a message needs to be sent, I think it's also important not to set any precedents which could later be used against peaceful protesters.
it is pretty easy to draw the line here - I don't see the risk of creating precedent.
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Old 25th January 2021, 06:18 AM   #2694
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
This one's still the best:

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That was awesome.
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Old 25th January 2021, 06:52 AM   #2695
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
So as presumably those in who accessed the Capitol building were the most serious about seditioning, we can say that folk with a military history are overrepresented when looking at the more serious population?

The ones outside, we do not know.
You are doing nothing more than making a guess.
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Old 25th January 2021, 07:35 AM   #2696
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
While I agree that people shouldn't get away with insurrection and a message needs to be sent, I think it's also important not to set any precedents which could later be used against peaceful protesters.
Keep in mind we already have a precedent set... In the past, people have been arrested for things like peaceful protests over republican attempts to revoke Obamacare.

So going after the rioters that stormed the Capitol (even if they caused no damage or engaged in violence) is not setting a precedent... It is following it.

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Old 25th January 2021, 07:46 AM   #2697
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And we've made it to "Okay but how do we define" handwringing and the discussion is over, dead, and nothing will ever bring it back.

Evil keeps being done because we're all so goddamn, wetting our pants scared of defining where the evil starts.
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Old 25th January 2021, 07:55 AM   #2698
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Quote:
NEW: US Justice Dept court filing says 81 US Capitol Police officers and 58 DC Police officers are injured from the US Capitol Insurrection on Jan 6
https://twitter.com/MacFarlaneNews/s...02251685150723
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Old 25th January 2021, 09:00 AM   #2699
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Keep in mind we already have a precedent set... In the past, people have been arrested for things like peaceful protests over republican attempts to revoke Obamacare.

So going after the rioters that stormed the Capitol (even if they caused no damage or engaged in violence) is not setting a precedent... It is following it.

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I assume you mean the Obamacare repeal protesters were trespassing and/or disrupting proceedings, right? (I'm not familiar with what you are talking about, so I'm just trying to understand your point.)

If that's your point, I agree. The thing about protests is if they go on to civil disobedience, they are, in fact, disobedient, i.e. lawbreaking, and arrests do occur. No need for "precedent", really. It's just normal. The people in the Capitol were trespassing (a fairly specific form of trespassing with its own special statute for it). They can be arrested.

Remember back in the days of anti-apartheid protests? It was all the rage to get arrested for illegally protesting at the White House. I remember Jesse Jackson and Amy Carter being arrested. I remember other celebrities were arrested. I just don't remember their names. I can't remember where they were or what they were doing that made their protests illegal. I just remember it was kind of a badge of honor being arrested for protesting apartheid. It made everyone feel all Thoreau-ish.

Some will plead that they didn't realize entering the Capitol was a crime because they walked through the open doors without being impeded, but that's hogwash. There is not one person in that crowd who did not know that there was a police barricade set up specifically to keep them out. By the time they got to the doors, every one of them knew that in order to reach that point, the police had to be thrown out of the way. Even if they, themselves, did not participate in the scuffles with police that resulted in the barricades being breached, they knew that there had been a police line.

So, they have no leg to stand on.

On the other hand......

Usually, even if a protest gets violent, people aren't generally rounded up afterward based on a photo being taken, unless the person being rounded up did a bunch more than just trespassing. There has sort of been an unwritten rule that you only end up with charges filed against you if you are caught in the act at the time of the riot, or you do something particularly nasty, like getting caught on video firing a gun or causing a serious injury. It will be interesting to see what happens the next time protesters block streets without parade permits, throw rocks or bottles, or use their handy pepper spray guns. I suspect police departments will decide that if its good enough for Capitol Police, it's good enough for them.
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Old 25th January 2021, 09:05 AM   #2700
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The number given in the tweet in your link is the number assaulted, not the number injured.

The tweeter you linked to said "injured" even though the very text he quoted said "assaulted".
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Old 25th January 2021, 09:23 AM   #2701
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Quote:
Keep in mind we already have a precedent set... In the past, people have been arrested for things like peaceful protests over republican attempts to revoke Obamacare.

So going after the rioters that stormed the Capitol (even if they caused no damage or engaged in violence) is not setting a precedent... It is following it.
I assume you mean the Obamacare repeal protesters were trespassing and/or disrupting proceedings, right? (I'm not familiar with what you are talking about, so I'm just trying to understand your point.)
The ones I am thinking of were arrested in and around various senators offices. (They weren't interrupting the senate or house, but they were charged with "“Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding” over things like passive resistance.) I'm not sure how they actually got into the senate buildings in the first place.

See: CNN
Quote:
Usually, even if a protest gets violent, people aren't generally rounded up afterward based on a photo being taken, unless the person being rounded up did a bunch more than just trespassing. There has sort of been an unwritten rule that you only end up with charges filed against you if you are caught in the act at the time of the riot, or you do something particularly nasty, like getting caught on video firing a gun or causing a serious injury.
You're right... they don't often go through the trouble of tracking down protestors via photos. But, usually they don't have to because they would have been arrested when they were actually engaged in the protests.

If the 'authorities' (Capitol Police/Trump administration/national guard) had been functioning properly on January 6, the terrorists would have been apprehended while they were still in the capitol building, so the FBI wouldn't HAVE to go through the effort of tracking them down with photos.
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Old 25th January 2021, 10:15 AM   #2702
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The number given in the tweet in your link is the number assaulted, not the number injured.

The tweeter you linked to said "injured" even though the very text he quoted said "assaulted".
Trump rioters incompetence in assault doesn't make them any less criminal.
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Old 25th January 2021, 10:23 AM   #2703
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I assume you mean the Obamacare repeal protesters were trespassing and/or disrupting proceedings, right? (I'm not familiar with what you are talking about, so I'm just trying to understand your point.)

If that's your point, I agree. The thing about protests is if they go on to civil disobedience, they are, in fact, disobedient, i.e. lawbreaking, and arrests do occur. No need for "precedent", really. It's just normal. The people in the Capitol were trespassing (a fairly specific form of trespassing with its own special statute for it). They can be arrested.

Remember back in the days of anti-apartheid protests? It was all the rage to get arrested for illegally protesting at the White House. I remember Jesse Jackson and Amy Carter being arrested. I remember other celebrities were arrested. I just don't remember their names. I can't remember where they were or what they were doing that made their protests illegal. I just remember it was kind of a badge of honor being arrested for protesting apartheid. It made everyone feel all Thoreau-ish.

Some will plead that they didn't realize entering the Capitol was a crime because they walked through the open doors without being impeded, but that's hogwash. There is not one person in that crowd who did not know that there was a police barricade set up specifically to keep them out. By the time they got to the doors, every one of them knew that in order to reach that point, the police had to be thrown out of the way. Even if they, themselves, did not participate in the scuffles with police that resulted in the barricades being breached, they knew that there had been a police line.

So, they have no leg to stand on.

On the other hand......

Usually, even if a protest gets violent, people aren't generally rounded up afterward based on a photo being taken, unless the person being rounded up did a bunch more than just trespassing. There has sort of been an unwritten rule that you only end up with charges filed against you if you are caught in the act at the time of the riot, or you do something particularly nasty, like getting caught on video firing a gun or causing a serious injury. It will be interesting to see what happens the next time protesters block streets without parade permits, throw rocks or bottles, or use their handy pepper spray guns. I suspect police departments will decide that if its good enough for Capitol Police, it's good enough for them.

Of course it's hogwash. There were lines of cops barring entry. They had to batter doors down and smash windows. No way could anyone have wandered in 'by accident'.

Except that unfortunate off-duty cop who was unfairly arrested, when all he wanted to do was look at the fine historical oil paintings.
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Old 25th January 2021, 11:29 AM   #2704
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
The ones I am thinking of were arrested in and around various senators offices. (They weren't interrupting the senate or house, but they were charged with "“Crowding, Obstructing, or Incommoding” over things like passive resistance.) I'm not sure how they actually got into the senate buildings in the first place.

See: CNN
The last time I was in Washington DC, anyone could waltz right into the House or Senate office buildings. I know I did. I don't remember going through metal detectors or being searched, but it might have happened. I attended a couple of Senate hearings that were held in those buildings that day. Ted Kennedy's face really did get red when he was preaching.

That was a long time ago, pre 9/11, in the early days of the Clinton administration. I don't know if security is more formidable now.

I'm fairly certain, though, that if one of the nice men with guns and blue shirts told you to move along or be quiet, there was a legal obligation to do so.
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Old 25th January 2021, 12:07 PM   #2705
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
While I agree that people shouldn't get away with insurrection and a message needs to be sent, I think it's also important not to set any precedents which could later be used against peaceful protesters.
Such as?

Curious minds want to know.
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Old 25th January 2021, 12:09 PM   #2706
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wrong post quoted

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Old 25th January 2021, 12:12 PM   #2707
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The number given in the tweet in your link is the number assaulted, not the number injured.

The tweeter you linked to said "injured" even though the very text he quoted said "assaulted".
I would think the 'assaulted but not injured' list would be much longer.
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Old 25th January 2021, 12:51 PM   #2708
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The last time I was in Washington DC, anyone could waltz right into the House or Senate office buildings. I know I did. I don't remember going through metal detectors or being searched, but it might have happened. I attended a couple of Senate hearings that were held in those buildings that day. Ted Kennedy's face really did get red when he was preaching.

That was a long time ago, pre 9/11, in the early days of the Clinton administration. I don't know if security is more formidable now.

I'm fairly certain, though, that if one of the nice men with guns and blue shirts told you to move along or be quiet, there was a legal obligation to do so.

Security at the Capitol has been much tougher since 9/11, and even more so post-covid. There haven't been public tours since March, and guests must be escorted by members or their staff. Before that, they built a huge, zillion-dollar underground Visitors Center that screens and processes visitors. You can only observe sessions with a pass from your Senator or Representative. The days of waltzing in and strolling around ended long ago.
https://www.visitthecapitol.gov/

I note that there is security screening at most museums and many other public places in D.C., certainly all federal buildings. No one assaulting the Capitol could possibly have thought they weren't doing anything wrong.

Last edited by Bob001; 25th January 2021 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 25th January 2021, 12:57 PM   #2709
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I would think the 'assaulted but not injured' list would be much longer.

It sounds like the filing uses "assaulted" and "injured" interchangeably. I doubt they they are treating a shove as an assault.

Quote:
A Justice Department court filing has revealed that at least 134 police officers were assaulted during the Capitol riots on January 6.

The document says that 81 officers from the Capitol Police force and 58 from the Washington D.C. Metropolitan Police Department sustained injuries when crowds of Donald Trump supporters breached the building while lawmakers were preparing to count electoral college votes, cementing Joe Biden's election victory.
https://www.newsweek.com/134-police-...filing-1564166
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Old 25th January 2021, 02:28 PM   #2710
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Quote:
Brandon Straka, founder of the "Walk Away" campaign who describes himself as a "former liberal," charged in the Capitol insurrection:
https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/statu...92976800129024

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...-affidavit.pdf

Sounds like he should have walked away before committing multiple felonies.
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Old 25th January 2021, 02:48 PM   #2711
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It sounds like the filing uses "assaulted" and "injured" interchangeably. I doubt they they are treating a shove as an assault.


https://www.newsweek.com/134-police-...filing-1564166
It looks like the news story substituted "assaulted".

134 injuries is an awful lot of injuries. I would guess that means injuries for which first aid was administered. That's a lot of injuries, even if those injuries are just minor cuts. I suppose it probably includes anyone who sought help after being maced, or possibly the cops did post-action reports and it includes anyone who mentioned an injury in an after action report.

Regardless, that's a lot of injuries. Even if most of them were minor, it's pretty easy to understand why the cops are pretty unhappy about things, especially with one dead. I haven't heard any numbers on severity of injuries or transportation to hospitals.
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Old 25th January 2021, 09:13 PM   #2712
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sounds like he should have walked away before committing multiple felonies.
Or in deeper retrospect, remained a liberal.
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Old 26th January 2021, 03:08 AM   #2713
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It looks like the news story substituted "assaulted".

134 injuries is an awful lot of injuries. I would guess that means injuries for which first aid was administered. That's a lot of injuries, even if those injuries are just minor cuts. I suppose it probably includes anyone who sought help after being maced, or possibly the cops did post-action reports and it includes anyone who mentioned an injury in an after action report.

Regardless, that's a lot of injuries. Even if most of them were minor, it's pretty easy to understand why the cops are pretty unhappy about things, especially with one dead. I haven't heard any numbers on severity of injuries or transportation to hospitals.
In the UK at least, reports of the number of injured officers would include someone banging their head getting out of the police van, someone putting their back out filing incident reports or someone getting scalded by a hot cup of coffee while waiting to be deployed.
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Old 26th January 2021, 06:00 AM   #2714
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In the UK at least, reports of the number of injured officers would include someone banging their head getting out of the police van, someone putting their back out filing incident reports or someone getting scalded by a hot cup of coffee while waiting to be deployed.
You missed the one that got a paper cut from writing the incident report.
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Old 26th January 2021, 07:12 AM   #2715
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Much of the violence in the Capitol siege took place outside the building. It would be a mistake to go easy on those involved in the battle of tunnel, the organizers who encouraged the crowd to attack or those that brought weapons.
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Old 26th January 2021, 07:38 AM   #2716
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I assume you mean the Obamacare repeal protesters were trespassing and/or disrupting proceedings, right? (I'm not familiar with what you are talking about, so I'm just trying to understand your point.)

If that's your point, I agree. The thing about protests is if they go on to civil disobedience, they are, in fact, disobedient, i.e. lawbreaking, and arrests do occur. No need for "precedent", really. It's just normal. The people in the Capitol were trespassing (a fairly specific form of trespassing with its own special statute for it). They can be arrested.

Remember back in the days of anti-apartheid protests? It was all the rage to get arrested for illegally protesting at the White House. I remember Jesse Jackson and Amy Carter being arrested. I remember other celebrities were arrested. I just don't remember their names. I can't remember where they were or what they were doing that made their protests illegal. I just remember it was kind of a badge of honor being arrested for protesting apartheid. It made everyone feel all Thoreau-ish.

Some will plead that they didn't realize entering the Capitol was a crime because they walked through the open doors without being impeded, but that's hogwash. There is not one person in that crowd who did not know that there was a police barricade set up specifically to keep them out. By the time they got to the doors, every one of them knew that in order to reach that point, the police had to be thrown out of the way. Even if they, themselves, did not participate in the scuffles with police that resulted in the barricades being breached, they knew that there had been a police line.

So, they have no leg to stand on.

On the other hand......

Usually, even if a protest gets violent, people aren't generally rounded up afterward based on a photo being taken, unless the person being rounded up did a bunch more than just trespassing. There has sort of been an unwritten rule that you only end up with charges filed against you if you are caught in the act at the time of the riot, or you do something particularly nasty, like getting caught on video firing a gun or causing a serious injury. It will be interesting to see what happens the next time protesters block streets without parade permits, throw rocks or bottles, or use their handy pepper spray guns. I suspect police departments will decide that if its good enough for Capitol Police, it's good enough for them.
I recall NATO 2012, quite a few activists were arrested.

At the homes of people they were staying in town with.

Before the protest.

So even this big show of arrests and pressing hard charges seems slow and reactionary compared to what I experienced when I was into filming civil unrest.
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Old 26th January 2021, 07:49 AM   #2717
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post

If the 'authorities' (Capitol Police/Trump administration/national guard) had been functioning properly on January 6, the terrorists would have been apprehended while they were still in the capitol building, so the FBI wouldn't HAVE to go through the effort of tracking them down with photos.
If the authorities had been functioning there would have been nobody unauthorized in the building.
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Old 26th January 2021, 08:51 AM   #2718
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Mod WarningPlease try to concentrate your posts on discussion of the incidents in and around the Capitol Building. We have other threads for matters such as "cancel culture" and the usage of slurs towards groups/individuals holding beliefs with which some disagree.
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Old 26th January 2021, 12:21 PM   #2719
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In the UK at least, reports of the number of injured officers would include someone banging their head getting out of the police van, someone putting their back out filing incident reports or someone getting scalded by a hot cup of coffee while waiting to be deployed.
Similarly in the US, but only if they reported the head banging in an official manner, i.e. filled out an incident report, or some such. a guy getting punched in the face would not count as an injury. A guy getting punched in the face and asking for an ice pack would count as an injury.

Still, 134 people requesting first aid is a lot of people.

Historical aside, not relevant to this specific thread:
My great uncle was with the Marines on Guadalcanal. The initial American landings were unopposed. My great uncle would tell of the 1st Purple Heart given on Guadalcanal. On the day of the landings, one of his buddies cut his finger opening a rations can.
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Old 26th January 2021, 12:29 PM   #2720
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The point above about pepperspray is probably the correct one. A lot of spray was used by the cops, and a few of the capitol invaders even had their own cans. Given that it's an area affect weapon, pretty much every cop inside probably experienced at least mild exposure effects which could be recorded as an injury. It may not be an injury that requires any aid at all beyond a shower, but it's an injury nonetheless.
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