Continuation Transwomen are not women - part XI

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Samson

I am perplexed by one thing.
The only trans person I ever knew was my brother.
I don't believe he was part of a trans community, yet many posters here talk of having a lot of trans friends.
How is this realistically true?

I have two trans friends, both trans-women.

I had three, but she committed suicide (in a car, hose pipe from the exhaust through window!)

Incidentally, neither of the two I know think trans-women should be using women's restrooms. I never asked the one who killed herself.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

A genuine trans woman is someone born male who actually believes they're the wrong gender. A fake one is doing it to exploit women.

As I've said several times, there isn't an easy way to tell, and the onus on solving the problem rests with the trans community.

Originally Posted by smartcooky

I have two trans friends, both trans-women.

I had three, but she committed suicide (in a car, hose pipe from the exhaust through window!)

Incidentally, neither of the two I know think trans-women should be using women's restrooms. I never asked the one who killed herself.

My brother died 2005, age 53. I never saw a "sister" so I am wilfully misgendering. None of us really engaged or interviewed as it were. He clearly took estrogen, but how or by whom prescribed I have no idea. This would have begun late 40s so appears to follow a pattern of late onset of a need to attend to dysphoria.

[Samson]

Meanwhile a religious freak speaks, and I agree with every word he says, and with fluency.
New law from North Dakota

https://youtu.be/3BhYg0e511I

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Samson

New law from North Dakota

Any luck finding the actual text of the bill? I was wondering whether it leaves schools and counselors free to use preferred pronouns or not.

[d4m10n]

Meanwhile in Montana:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Have to say, I'm profoundly impressed. GOP reactionaries have managed to pass a law so obviously unconstitutional on its face that even the Roberts Thomas Court won't uphold it.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Meanwhile in Montana:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Have to say, I'm profoundly impressed. GOP reactionaries have managed to pass a law so obviously unconstitutional on its face that even the Roberts Thomas Court won't uphold it.

Every time you think the dumb has hit its limit... it goes a bit further.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Samson

Helen Joyce etc
The rest still have their jobs because they probably have mortgages and families.

You're referring to this truly sick bigot?

https://twitter.com/ICanSeeForever1/...47507418492928

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Elaedith

Note that LJ applauds the hounding out of those who disagree with the party line, then attaches great significance to people not disagreeing with the party line as though it's a free choice.

What? Explain please.

Is this perhaps because you feel very uncomfortable that your own beliefs are in such dramatic opposition to those of the mainstream medical community (AKA "the party line" in your parlance)?


As a side note, I am indeed constantly pleased and impressed that around the industrialised world of modern liberal democracies, governments, public institutions, regulatory bodies and other positions of public authority are being ever-more-increasingly populated by those who fully support/endorse the rights & protections of transgender people, and who share the consensus view of global mainstream medicine that transgender identity is valid and real (ie not a mental health disorder).

And at the same time, I'm constantly pleased and impressed that people in public institutions who oppose the fundamental validity/reality of transgender identity, and who fight against the notion of transgender rights and protections, are becoming fewer and fewer*. Just as anti-gay-rights individuals in the 60s-80s became fewer and fewer.


* Which, for clarity, is NOT "applauding the hounding of those who disagree with the party line"

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

It's not confusing, it's appalling.

To you it is.

It's a genuine wonder why apparently intelligent people who share your views - people who allegedly possess critical thinking skills - never seem to stop for a moment to wonder why their beliefs on this issue are so extremely out of step with those of almost all the "western" world's executive governments, legislatures, judiciaries and regulatory bodies, as well as being diametrically opposite to modern mainstream medicine's understanding and practice. All of those bodies, incidentally, contain healthy proportions of cis women (or "natal females" in case the usual suspects kick off again....).

I mean, I realise that it's easy and lazy to shout "ideological capture", but it's also wrong to make that claim, isn't it?

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

It's a genuine wonder why apparently intelligent people who share your views - people who allegedly possess critical thinking skills - never seem to stop for a moment to wonder why their beliefs on this issue are so extremely out of step with those of almost all the "western" world's executive governments, legislatures, judiciaries and regulatory bodies, as well as being diametrically opposite to modern mainstream medicine's understanding and practice.

These are the same governments, legislatures, judiciaries and regulatory bodies which criminalized consensual sodomy in living memory. If it was wrong to appeal to them then, why is it right now?

[Samson]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

You're referring to this truly sick bigot?

https://twitter.com/ICanSeeForever1/...47507418492928

Yes all sorts of people consider puberty the only path to health.

And from the comments

Frances Oldham Kelsey stopped Thalidomide being approved in the USA not because she hated people with Thalidomide damage but because she wanted to prevent harm.

[Matthew Best]

British Cycling to ban transgender women from competing in female category

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/65718748


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew Best]

Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges has called this “a violent act” and accused British Cycling of “furthering a genocide” so it looks like she’s against it.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges has called this “a violent act” and accused British Cycling of “furthering a genocide” so it looks like she’s against it.

Oh boo ******* hoo.

[d4m10n]

https://twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/...47099196678144

Quote:

Mermaids is extremely disappointed by British Cyclings’ new cruel and exclusionary transgender guidance which will see much fewer trans athletes be able to compete in their sport. As a youth organisation we see what these top-down policies mean for the daily lives of trans youth

I was expecting they'd make a statement about the legitimate need for sex segregation at the elite and sub-elite level, but apparently they want the entire sport to be based on gender rather than sex.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges has called this “a violent act” and accused British Cycling of “furthering a genocide” so it looks like she’s against it.

Our speech is violence, their violence is speech.

[Lithrael]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Our speech is violence, their violence is speech.

Bold words from the guy whose reaction to someone being beaten for going to the loo that the genitals cops told them to go to was essentially "that's what you guys get for making this so confusing"

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

You're referring to this truly sick bigot?

https://twitter.com/ICanSeeForever1/...47507418492928

Yep, it's truly sick and bigoted to believe that people being reconciled with the material reality of the only body they have is a safer and more compassionate solution than turning every person who doesn't conform to a set of stereotypes into a permanent medical patient.

Seriously, think about this.

A person goes into their therapist and says "I really hate my left arm, it causes me distress"

What's the most sane and compassionate approach to this, in your view? Do you engage in therapy and discussion to alleviate their mental discord and get them to be comfortable with their left arm? Or do you immediately affirm their distress and chop off their arm, even though you know that's going to present them with a lifetime of medical complications and impacts to their ability to function well in society?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

As a side note, I am indeed constantly pleased and impressed that around the industrialised world of modern liberal democracies, governments, public institutions, regulatory bodies and other positions of public authority are being ever-more-increasingly populated by those who fully support/endorse the rights & protections of transgender people, and who share the consensus view of global mainstream medicine that transgender identity is valid and real (ie not a mental health disorder).

And at the same time, I'm constantly pleased and impressed that people in public institutions who oppose the fundamental validity/reality of transgender identity, and who fight against the notion of transgender rights and protections, are becoming fewer and fewer*. Just as anti-gay-rights individuals in the 60s-80s became fewer and fewer.

Pretty much, you're super happy that females across the globe are being silenced, threatened, and harassed, are losing their voices in politics, are losing their jobs, and are being forced out of public life. You're really happy and excited that females are being exiled from equal participation in society.

Yay you.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

British Cycling to ban transgender women from competing in female category

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/65718748


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges has called this “a violent act” and accused British Cycling of “furthering a genocide” so it looks like she’s against it.

How the hell is it "genocide" to expect males to participate against other males? Honestly, this kind of hyperbolic idiocy is a big part of the problem. Telling someone that they don't meet the sex-based criteria of a sex-based category isn't ******* "violence".

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

https://twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/...47099196678144

I was expecting they'd make a statement about the legitimate need for sex segregation at the elite and sub-elite level, but apparently they want the entire sport to be based on gender rather than sex.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Oh goodness, it's "cruel" to expect males to participate against other males. None of these males are being made unable to participate in their sport - they simply have to qualify against other males... rather than excluding females from their female-only sports.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Our speech is violence, their violence is speech.

Pretty much. The hypocrisy is mind boggling.

[Lplus]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

https://twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/...47099196678144

I was expecting they'd make a statement about the legitimate need for sex segregation at the elite and sub-elite level, but apparently they want the entire sport to be based on gender rather than sex.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Of course. To state a legitimate need for sex based segregation at elite level is to accept that the word "woman" is at least part defined by biological sex. and if that is the case then males can never be "women" and that would never do, would it...

[Aber]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Transgender cyclist Emily Bridges has called this “a violent act” and accused British Cycling of “furthering a genocide” so it looks like she’s against it.

Full post in this tweet

https://twitter.com/colwight/status/...DQyePX5ZAuAAAA

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

British Cycling to ban transgender women from competing in female category

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/65718748

Bravo!

Now, if they can just convince the world body to follow suit.

I've been thinking and wonder if I've been thinking about sport the wrong way and it actually might be the best sledgehammer to beat the insane wing into sensibility.

If all sports stand up and disallow trans women to compete, it must encourage them to seek a new category for themselves. I don't see such a move having any push-back by sports or fans. Women didn't compete at Olympic Games in the first instance, and it's only 11 years ago that women were allowed to box, so let's add a trans category.

If they successfully get their own category at sport, then they can have their own bathrooms, refuges and prisons.

Problem gone.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Lithrael

Bold words from the guy whose reaction to someone being beaten for going to the loo that the genitals cops told them to go to was essentially "that's what you guys get for making this so confusing"

I have no connection to people who beat others up for using the wrong bathroom. I want nothing to do with them, and I said so explicitly. My connection is to people who voice their opinions peacefully, and then get physically attacked for doing so. That's who I side with.

And you have confused the proscriptive with the descriptive. When I describe how things are, that doesn't mean that's the way I want them to be. You also seem to think that I'm saying someone deserves violence. But "deserve" has nothing to do with it. If I walk down a dark alley with money hanging out of my pockets, I don't deserve to get robbed, but it's a real risk. When you knock down Chesterton's fence, that doesn't mean you deserve the chaos that follows, but it will follow regardless. Moreover, the people who are responsible for creating a problem are frequently not the people who pay the price, and that seems to be the case here too.

[d4m10n]

General question on the trendlines in this article

Why do you suppose that diagnoses of youth gender dysphoria are doubling every two to three years in some parts of the U.S. such as NY & PA?

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[Brainster]

SF Chronicle runs with a "who really knows if transgender athletes have an advantage" article. Here's the opening:

Quote:

Two female runners competing in a state high school championship this weekend have come under attack because people believe they are transgender and therefore may have an unfair advantage. But the science is far from clear as to whether trans athletes are actually faster or stronger than their cisgender peers, experts say.

The experts are wheeled in:

Quote:

Another study, also from Loughborough University and published in 2021, found that for several key markers of athletic performance, trans female athletes on hormone therapy for at least three months were very similar to cisgender athletes.

“It’s not unreasonable to suggest that in endurance performance, trans women who are on hormone therapy may not have any significant advantages,” said Joanna Harper, a doctoral student at Loughborough who was an author on both studies and is a transgender runner herself.

The conflict of interest there is rather transparent, but even the summary of the study is misleading. Here's the paper, and note this part:

Quote:

Conclusion In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy.

However, even that is irrelevant to the question of those high school runners, because the two studies cited were focused on transwomen who were taking hormone therapy; that does not have to be the case in high school, as the reporter eventually gets around to admitting:

Quote:

The public backlash against the two runners competing in the California Interscholastic Federation championships Friday and Saturday hinges on assumptions that both athletes are transgender, based in part on them having run on boys’ teams in previous seasons.

But neither girl has identified publicly as transgender, and it’s not known if they are currently or have ever taken hormone-suppressing drugs. And they shouldn’t have to reveal that information, say experts in sports medicine and biology, along with trans rights advocates.

So all the talk about studies being inconclusive is a diversion. The question is not whether transgirls have an advantage over girls; it's whether biological boys with no hormone therapy regimen have an advantage over girls, and there we have oodles of evidence.

Predictably the article veers into the "they're all just haters" territory at the end:

Quote:

“What’s happening now is not for the most part about any legitimate concerns or questions,” he added. “It’s just a political targeting of a vulnerable group. It’s not that problems have suddenly arisen, it’s that it’s suddenly become a political issue. And that’s really tragic for these kids.”

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by TRAs

It’s not that problems have suddenly arisen, it’s that it’s suddenly become a political issue.

"And we would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling TERFs!"

Goddamn right it's not that problems have suddenly arisen. The problems have been there all along. What's finally being overcome is the political stonewalling that kept these problems covered up.

[Elaedith]

In response to a freedom of information request, Tavistock denied that it had any relevant information on it's associations with Mermaids. A week or so ago the information regulator found on the balance of probabilities that it did, and ordered it to release the information under threat of further action. Tavistock has now released 300 pages of information (which it previously claimed not to have). Ophelia Benson has a brief summary of this on Butterflies and Wheels.

A twitter user has posted links to the released papers which documents links between Mermaids, the then head of Mermaids Susie Green (who has no medical qualifications but was on advisory panels) and GIDs, so you can see for yourself.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Samson

I am perplexed by one thing.
The only trans person I ever knew was my brother.
I don't believe he was part of a trans community, yet many posters here talk of having a lot of trans friends.
How is this realistically true?

I suppose it depends on one’s exposure to people who are different from themselves.

I’ve been a member of my local LGBT community band for 20+ years. For a stretch, I was a member of a Unitarian Universalist church, which was very welcoming of LGBT folks. I’ve gotten to known many trans men and women through those organizations over the decades.

Yet, even still, I knew at least one trans-woman outside of all that through work but, to be fair, she knew of my band participation for years and probably felt more comfortable announcing her transition in a group who she knew would at least have some sympathetic people in it.

My experiences might not be typical, but your experiences might not be either. And I still contend that you probably know more trans folks than you realize, just like I used to have to tell people that probably know more gay folks then they realize. History rhymes again and again.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Upchurch

I suppose it depends on one’s exposure to people who are different from themselves.

I’ve been a member of my local LGBT community band for 20+ years. For a stretch, I was a member of a Unitarian Universalist church, which was very welcoming of LGBT folks. I’ve gotten to known many trans men and women through those organizations over the decades.

Yet, even still, I knew at least one trans-woman outside of all that through work but, to be fair, she knew of my band participation for years and probably felt more comfortable announcing her transition in a group who she knew would at least have some sympathetic people in it.

My experiences might not be typical, but your experiences might not be either. And I still contend that you probably know more trans folks than you realize, just like I used to have to tell people that probably know more gay folks then they realize. History rhymes again and again.

Yeah.... but according to many of the participants in this toxic little thread, trans women are nothing but mentally ill men in dresses, and trans men are nothing but mentally ill women who've somehow been browbeaten into "masquerading" as men. And trans kids are gay kids who are being "transed into straightness".

Personally, I don't find people holding such beliefs worthy of debating on any aspect of this subject. But of course YMMV.

[crazycat]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Yeah.... but according to many of the participants in this toxic little thread, trans women are nothing but mentally ill men in dresses, and trans men are nothing but mentally ill women who've somehow been browbeaten into "masquerading" as men. And trans kids are gay kids who are being "transed into straightness".

Personally, I don't find people holding such beliefs worthy of debating on any aspect of this subject. But of course YMMV.

What forum do you think you're reading? Nobody here has stated that all trans people are mentally ill. It's a strawman of your own making.

What they have been saying is that self-id allows men who don't in any way consider themselves to be female to utter the magic spell and gain access to places where biological women are vulnerable. A point that is continually ignored by trans advocates.

They are also saying that some trans kids are being pushed to be trans beccause their parents are anti-gay. Some. That means "not all"

And if you think this thread is toxic, look in the mirror. For the self-proclaimed adult in the room, you do a terrible job of representing other people's views.

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Yeah.... but according to many of the participants in this toxic little thread, trans women are nothing but mentally ill men in dresses, and trans men are nothing but mentally ill women who've somehow been browbeaten into "masquerading" as men.

Bearing in mind that mental illness ought not be stigmatized or invalidated, do you believe a significant fraction of trans identified adults have never experienced any of the diagnosable conditions listed in the DSM? Say, more than 25% or so?

Originally Posted by crazycat

Nobody here has stated that all trans people are mentally ill. It's a strawman of your own making.

Some have said that people need to experience gender dysphoria in order to really be trans, IIRC.

[Samson]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Yeah.... but according to many of the participants in this toxic little thread, trans women are nothing but mentally ill men in dresses, and trans men are nothing but mentally ill women who've somehow been browbeaten into "masquerading" as men. And trans kids are gay kids who are being "transed into straightness".

Personally, I don't find people holding such beliefs worthy of debating on any aspect of this subject. But of course YMMV.

This thread can only be toxic if the forum at large is toxic.
This is a corollary of consistent moderation.

[crazycat]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Bearing in mind that mental illness ought not be stigmatized or invalidated, do you believe a significant fraction of trans identified adults have never experienced any of the diagnosable conditions listed in the DSM? Say, more than 25% or so?

Some have said that people need to experience gender dysphoria in order to really be trans, IIRC.

Um, yes, I forgot that London John considers gender dysphoria to be a mental illness, and claims that not all trans people have it. And that any suggestion of mental illness in trans people is abhorrent (except of course an illness brought about by society's refusal to accomodate them)

I dare say that most of the people here on this forum have or have had a condition in the DSM at sometime in their lives, whether diagnosed or not. As do people in general.

Mental illness should never be stigmatized. Unfortunately it often is.

I've been thinking how to say the following and I still haven't come up with a good neutral way of saying this, so I'll probably get shot for asking this. What does being trans even mean outside of saying there is a mismatch between their body and their brain or mind?

[Parsman]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

General question on the trendlines in this article

Why do you suppose that diagnoses of youth gender dysphoria are doubling every two to three years in some parts of the U.S. such as NY & PA?

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50 years ago when homosexuality was illegal almost no-one openly identified as gay. When the legal oppression stopped, more claimants appeared. Seems to be a similar pattern with people suffering gender dysmorphia.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by Parsman

50 years ago when homosexuality was illegal almost no-one openly identified as gay. When the legal oppression stopped, more claimants appeared. Seems to be a similar pattern with people suffering gender dysmorphia.

Yeah, no. There's a strong social contagion component to gender dysphoria among teenagers (particularly girls) that never existed with homosexuals.

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Parsman

50 years ago when homosexuality was illegal almost no-one openly identified as gay. When the legal oppression stopped, more claimants appeared. Seems to be a similar pattern with people suffering gender dysmorphia.

Legal and sociocultural oppression of transgender people never stopped, according to trans activist groups. In some ways, it is noticeably worse than before.