So: Many experts now agree ... some birds use fire as a weapon. - Page 10

dann · 7th May 2018, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

These raptors can always be seen in numbers circling and swooping around the many small, cool bushfires that are starting to consume a season’s worth of dry grass and fallen timber. If I had more time I might have pulled off the road on my way home today and watched the birds working one such fire.

How hard can it be to film them not just working such fire, but setting and spreading it as well?!

Sideroxylon · 7th May 2018, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by dann

How hard can it be to film them not just working such fire, but setting and spreading it as well?!

Not hard at all. Just have to be there at the right time. But must as not every heron will go fishing with a piece of bread that you throw it, not every hawk is going to engage in this behaviour every time.

However if you have a lot of time on your hands and are keen enough it seems worthwhile to put in the hours of observation and recording their behaviour around fires.

Dabop · 7th May 2018, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by dann

What makes you think that I think that every inch of Oz is covered by CCTV???

I am?! That's news to me! Where exactly am I extrapolating that?! What I've been pointing out for a very long time is that this alleged phenomenon with so much anecdotal evidence behind it still hasn't been captured on film, in spite of all the cameras everywhere. Apparently some bushfires do break out in areas with CCTV, and some people make expeditions with the sole purpose of filming fire-starting birds - so far with nothing to show for it.
If I were to argue like you and macdoc, I would now resort to something along the lines of: After 40,000 years of eyewitness reports - and still not one second of actual footage!

Firstly the cctv cameras were not at the park, they were in the surrounding areas...
Secondly, people are not only dissuaded from "make expeditions with the sole purpose of filming fire-starting birds", but can (and will) face criminal charges if they do not leave the area when told to by firefighters (and they will be, it's a dangerous place to be, firefighters have died fighting fires)
Thirdly firefighters themselves tend not to be wandering around ignoring the fire to watch and film the birds...

As some may have mentioned before, Oz is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated, it is not confirmed, neither is it unconfirmed. I have no doubt there are many places that have never had a single photo or video taken of them ever, yet do these places not exist?

And with that, I am leaving the conversation unless something new comes up, it is pointless going around and around over the same points

dann · 10th May 2018, 03:07 AM

So Australia "is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated", too BIIIIG and too sparsely populated for people to film birds spreading fires, but exactly the right size for (allegedly) observing them do so!
1) Apparently CCTV cameras can only catch sight of actual arsonists, but not the alleged birds.
2) We know that some people have made expeditions with the explicit purpose to film these alleged avian activities, but when actual footage still hasn't appeared, it's because "they will be" told by firefighters not to do so.
3) And firefighters are so busy paying attention to the fires that they couldn't possibly catch sight of the birds spreading them and pull out their cellphones and film them doing so. (I guess there are also strict penalties for doing so because of a conspiracy to prevent the truth from being revealed, aren't there?! And the real assignment of all the bushfire detectives is to cover up all the obvious tracks of fire-spreading birds, right?!)

Yes, it all seems very logical!
We are supposed to believe the anecdotes without any hard evidence because circumstances just prevent hard evidence form being obtained in spite of the prevalence of modern cellphones with video features and several posted photos of bushfires and birds online but never a single one of a bird with a burning twig in its beak. (Where do we usually hear similar excuses?!)

dann · 1st June 2018, 06:53 AM

Guess who appears to be under consideration for an Ig Nobel Prize: improbableresearch.com

Sideroxylon · 1st June 2018, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by dann

So Australia "is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated", too BIIIIG and too sparsely populated for people to film birds spreading fires, but exactly the right size for (allegedly) observing them do so!
1) Apparently CCTV cameras can only catch sight of actual arsonists, but not the alleged birds.
2) We know that some people have made expeditions with the explicit purpose to film these alleged avian activities, but when actual footage still hasn't appeared, it's because "they will be" told by firefighters not to do so.
3) And firefighters are so busy paying attention to the fires that they couldn't possibly catch sight of the birds spreading them and pull out their cellphones and film them doing so. (I guess there are also strict penalties for doing so because of a conspiracy to prevent the truth from being revealed, aren't there?! And the real assignment of all the bushfire detectives is to cover up all the obvious tracks of fire-spreading birds, right?!)

Yes, it all seems very logical!
We are supposed to believe the anecdotes without any hard evidence because circumstances just prevent hard evidence form being obtained in spite of the prevalence of modern cellphones with video features and several posted photos of bushfires and birds online but never a single one of a bird with a burning twig in its beak. (Where do we usually hear similar excuses?!)

Straw burns well.

macdoc · 1st June 2018, 10:45 AM

Wow Dann your ignorance of Australia, how to film wildlife, especially birds in flight and even the tenents of skepticism are sure on full display in that rant.

dann · 2nd June 2018, 08:36 AM

I sure hope they win! This year it's Sep. 13, 2018, and unless they come up with footage before that time, I think they stand a chance of at least being shortlisted. And we have them in Europe, too!
Well, I guess I'll just settle for the T-shirt ...

dann · 2nd June 2018, 12:51 PM

I almost forgot this one, which shows that the the UK seems to have been haunted by these fire-starting birds even as late as the 1950s! And they also appear to be terrorizing Central Park in New York! It’s about time something was done about this menace to humanity!
There’s even a picture of brave firefighters trying to put out the burning twigs carried by these devious dino descendants!

Quote:

Burton linked this avian love of fire and smoke to “anting”, which typically involves birds disturbing ants’ nests to expose themselves to formic acid that may act as a fungicide, bactericide and insect repellent. He cites a report by a fire brigade officer in 1950s Guildford, UK, of a nest smouldering in a tree, and he notes of a fire 8 metres up a tree in New York’s Central Park that “it is one of the unfortunate features of these entries in fire-brigade journals that they are laconic in the extreme”.
Avian arsonists spreading fire through the ages (New Scientist, Feb. 3, 2018, p. 52)

dann · 3rd June 2018, 02:09 PM

This one’s also from the UK, but much more recent. And I tend to believe it! Bird starts flat fire by dropping a smoking cigarette butt (Telegraph, Mar. 6, 2014)

Kimberly Moynahan didn’t jump on the bandwagon, but remained skeptical: About those birds starting fires in Australia (Feb. 18, 2016)

We’re still waiting for videos, but in the meantime there’s Angry Birds:

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And the Human Empire Strikes Back:

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dann · 13th September 2018, 10:53 PM

This year's Ig® Nobel Prize Ceremony took place yesterday, but unfortunately the fire-starting-birds idea was not among the Ig Nobel Prize Winners.

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lionking · 13th September 2018, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by dann

This year's Ig® Nobel Prize Ceremony took place yesterday, but unfortunately the fire-starting-birds idea was not among the Ig Nobel Prize Winners.

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You have been clutching at straws (wording deliberate) since this thread started. This takes the cake.

dann · 14th September 2018, 12:08 AM

So still no evidence of birds starting fires? Apart from old myths and hear-say ...
Well, that makes sense.
It's not that no research is done into to relationship between birds and fires, real research, but still not a single piece of evidence in the case of the fire-starting birds!

lionking · 14th September 2018, 12:13 AM

Cut it out. Underestimate birds’ intelligence at your own peril.

But to raise the igNoble awards in support of your own shaky position smacks of desperation.

I have nothing against you and enjoy many of your posts, but the way you have ignored evidence contrary to your views in this thread is just sad.

dann · 15th September 2018, 05:00 AM

No actual evidence was ever presented.
And pointing out that no evidence was presented has nothing to do with underestimating birds' intelligence. I can appreciate birds' intelligence without making up stories about birds starting fires. Strawman.
I look forward to either proof that they do or the acknowledgement that, no, now we've been trying to film birds starting fires for decades, but we have to admit that they don't seem to do so, so the claim that they do was probably false.

EHocking · 17th September 2018, 11:18 PM

Remember that the aim of the paper was to try to prove that Dreamtime stories are historical documents. If it were the Bible and not the Noble Savage syndrome, most proponents of this idea would not be so vociferous in their support of this idea.

This is religious science and as such, doesn’t rely on the same level of scrutiny of “data”.
Anecdotes = data therefore TRUE.

macdoc · 18th September 2018, 10:06 AM

sure

Quote:

It is a fundamental requirement of scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world, rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation.

Hence, science is considered to be methodologically empirical in nature.

Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management.
It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE.

Accepted wisdom was the night parrot was extinct for a century ...until it wasn't.

Quote:

New Australian Night Parrots Discovery — Extinct Birds Found Alive ...
https://www.audubon.org/.../yes-more...een-discovered
Nov 1, 2016 - The nocturnal bird is so rare that it was once thought to be extinct.

documenting a behavior that is completely within the capability of the species involved and that has been observed ,multiple times, takes time and effort and this one is not subject in the least to your "disbelief".......
That only shows the level of your ignorance....
With your attitude, you'd claim video evidence was "one off" or faked....
your mind is made up so your refuge is to ridicule observations made by people in the field.

Pathetic hardly covers it.

Observations and video and still nothing conclusive

https://www.news.com.au/technology/s...9275ca0f21d89c

It means that there is material worth pursuing.

Significant snip

Quote:

“Look, negative people are always going to be negative and there’s nothing you can do about that,” Mr Day said.

EHocking · 18th September 2018, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by macdoc

sure

Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management.
It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE.

I guess you're right.
I wonder why they included all that junk about Aboriginal myths etc in the paper's references then?

References Cited
…
Berndt, R. M., and C. H. Berndt. 1994. The Speaking Land. Myth and Story in Aboriginal Australia. Inner Traditions International, Rochester, VT.
…
Capell, A. 1960a. The Wandarang and Other Tribal Myths of the Yabuduruwa Ritual. Oceania 30:206–224. Crossref,

Capell, A. 1960b. Myths and Tales of the Nunggubuyu, S. E. Arnhem Land. Oceania 31:31–62. Crossref,
…
Frazer, J. G. 1930. Myths of the Origin of Fire: An Essay. MacMillan and Co, London, UK.
…
Holmes, C., dir.1965. The Yabuduwra Ceremony of the Lower Roper River [Film].Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studies, Canberra.
…
Maddock, K. J. 1969. The Jabuduruwa: A Study of the Structure of Rite and Myth in an Australian Aboriginal Religious Cult on the Beswick Reserve, Northern Territory. Unpublished Doctoral Dissertation, University of Sydney, Sydney.

Maddock, K. J. 1970. Myths of the Acquisition of Fire in Northern and Eastern Australia. InAustralian Aboriginal Anthropology: Modern Studies in the Social Anthropology of the Australian Aborigines, edited by R. M. Berndt, pp. 174–199. University of Western Australia Press, Perth.
…
Waterman, P. P. 1987. A Tale-Type Index of Australian Aboriginal Oral Narratives. Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia, Helsinki, Finland. Google Scholar

And let's not forget.
...
Tidemann, S., and A. Gosler. 2010. Ethno-ornithology: Birds, Indigenous Peoples, Culture and Society. Earthscan, London UK and Washington D.C.
…
An except on ethno-ornithology?

This book looks at the significance of indigenous knowledge of birds and their cultural significance, and how these can assist in framing research methods of western scientists working in related areas

The fact that this is ethno-biology should be a huge hint to you that it is ALL tied up with indigenous myth and legend.

Quote:

Accepted wisdom was the night parrot was extinct for a century ...until it wasn't.

... until definitive evidence for its existence was brought to the scientific community.

Wake me in a century when this lot have more that mere anecdotes. Perhaps then the accepted wisdom will be turned on it's head.
In the meantime - uncompelling.

Quote:

documenting a behavior that is completely within the capability of the species involved and that has been observed ,multiple times, takes time and effort and this one is not subject in the least to your "disbelief".......

I am sceptical. Belief has nothing to do with it.

Remember the Ivory-billed Woodpecker fiasco?
Accepted wisdom was the IBWP was extinct - until it was found to be (again).
Mountains and mountains of anecdotal "evidence", costing millions of dollars to collect, collate and study, only underlined the fact that it is still extinct.

Quote:

That only shows the level of your ignorance....
With your attitude, you'd claim video evidence was "one off" or faked....
your mind is made up so your refuge is to ridicule observations made by people in the field.

IBWP QED.

Quote:

Pathetic hardly covers it.

ad hom attacks are usually the last resort of an argument being lost. . .

Quote:

Observations and video and still nothing conclusive

This is exactly my point. Inconclusive.

So the sensible position (e.g., Night Parrot and IBWP) is that it has not been demonstrated.

Quote:

https://www.news.com.au/technology/s...9275ca0f21d89c

It means that there is material worth pursuing.

But has it been?
I mean, but actual biologists, not some unqualified nutjob with a website and a Facebook page.
If not, why not?

You would have thought his claim of 4700 thylacine sightings since it was declared extinct should have elicited some interest from the scientific community. That seems way more "evidence" than the other lot have for fire-starting kites.

dann · 19th September 2018, 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by macdoc

Quote:

“Look, negative people are always going to be negative and there’s nothing you can do about that,” Mr Day said.

You are aware that this is what it always comes down to when we are dealing with woos, aren't you?
'You have to keep an open mind!'
However, I don't think that any of the participants in this thread who are skeptical about the idea that birds start fires (and that they do so deliberately!) have declared that it is impossible and completely out the question that birds might be able to start fires and maybe even to do so deliberately. We also don't hate birds or look down on them. (Nor do we despise the indigenous population of Australia, but we do know that they weren't scientifically educated observers.)
What we are saying is that those of you who believe in the idea should be aware that there is no actual proof - instead of resorting to wooism just because somebody doubts your favourite hypothesis.
I tend to think that this proof will never appear. You, macdoc and others, think that it will.

Quote:

Observations and video and still nothing conclusive

So far: anecdotal evidence only.

What I have been pointing out is that, this day and age, the more anecdotal evidence you have, the more bothered I am by the lack of real footage, real evidence, because nowadays everybody has a video recording device.
(Birds are more difficult to fake than Bigfoot, of course, so if actual reliable footage appears, you'll have convinced me.)

Sideroxylon · 19th September 2018, 03:22 PM

These are not extraordinary claims. There is helping yourself to the ontological buffet of your imagination thereby ignoring Occam’s razor.

rockinkt · 19th September 2018, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by macdoc

Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management.
It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE.

By that criteria - we should just accept the fact that Bigfoot or Sasquatch exists because the "people that live there" have reported sightings and there are reports by "those tasked with fire management" that the bodies of Bigfoots were removed by the government by helicopter sling after the Mt St. Helens eruption.

Sideroxylon · 19th September 2018, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

By that criteria - we should just accept the fact that Bigfoot or Sasquatch exists because the "people that live there" have reported sightings and there are reports by "those tasked with fire management" that the bodies of Bigfoots were removed by the government by helicopter sling after the Mt St. Helens eruption.

Intelligent actions by birds universally are accepted. Particular instances of these while interesting are mundane claims in comparison to the Bigfoot claims, which fail many predicted observations that would be true if they were real.

rockinkt · 19th September 2018, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

Intelligent actions by birds universally are accepted. Particular instances of these while interesting are mundane claims in comparison to the Bigfoot claims, which fail many predicted observations that would be true if they were real.

The burden of proof is not met in either case by anecdotal evidence.

Sideroxylon · 19th September 2018, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by rockinkt

The burden of proof is not met in either case by anecdotal evidence.

Do you agree with the concept of extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence? If so what kind of evidence do mundane claims require?

The out of hand dismissal of indigenous lore and packing it off as religion is undeserved.

macdoc · 19th September 2018, 08:19 PM

Quote:

For that reason alone, our relationship to them is unlike our connection to any other ... The intellect of birds is arguably the closest in the animal world to our own.

from

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/b...9780812983760/
Spend a little money and learn something....

Picking up a burning stick to spread flames to aid hunting IS mundane as is chimps using tools to spear bushbabies or crack nuts., gulls dropping snails to crack them open or sea otters using rocks to crack shell fish or whales using bubble nets to trap fish ....etc etc
...but some seem to think they are extraordinary claims......pure unadulterated horsepucky

Get over yourselves, you're not the only smart ones on the planet tho you've given enough reason in this thread to provide exceptions to the "smart" aspect...

Indigenes all over the planet and to this day use fire to hunt and have perhaps even before modern humans arose. Why ever would you consider it beyond a carnivore that has dwelt in the region of fire and brush for millenia to sort it out?
Related species pack hunt and the 3 species of raptor involved are patently NOT in the least afraid of fire.

Crows can figure out problems from first principles merely by looking at the available materials and the problem .....without trial and error.

Living thylacine in Queensland requires extraordinary proof....not a smart predator spreading fire to hunt.

Sideroxylon · 19th September 2018, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon

These are not extraordinary claims. There is helping yourself to the ontological buffet of your imagination thereby ignoring Occam’s razor.

Should have read “there is not a helping yourself..”

dann · 20th September 2018, 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by macdoc

Picking up a burning stick to spread flames to aid hunting IS mundane as is chimps using tools to spear bushbabies or crack nuts., gulls dropping snails to crack them open or sea otters using rocks to crack shell fish or whales using bubble nets to trap fish ....etc etc

You can resort to

as much as you want, but it doesn't really support your claim. For some reason fire and the wheel are celebrated as extraordinary human accomplishments. Sticks? No, not so much ...
By the way, have you seen the footage of chimps spearing hushbabies and using rocks to crack nuts? Have you seen footage of gulls cracking snails and mussels by dropping them onto stones from a great height? Have you seen footage of otters using rocks to crack shell fish? Have you seen footage of dolphins using bubble nets to trap fish? Have you seen footage of crows and parrots solving relatively complicated problems?
So have we!!!
What we are still missing is footage of birds starting fires! You seem to think that the other cases support your claim. They don't. On the contrary, actually. They just serve to make the difference much more obvious.
(We have also seen footage of the okapi. We haven't seen any of Bigfoot. Does that tell you anything?!)

Quote:

Get over yourselves, you're not the only smart ones on the planet tho you've given enough reason in this thread to provide exceptions to the "smart" aspect...

So you consider the call for proof to be a sign of inferior intelligence. I'm not at all surprised.

EHocking · 6th February 2019, 04:37 PM

Or certainly that's what the trailer for their new short natural histories series, "The Magical Land of Oz" seems to want us to think.
https://iview.abc.net.au/show/magical-land-of-oz

In the trailer we see a closeup of the head/shoulders of, what looks like, a Black Kite picking up a smouldering brand in it's beak. Cut to Black Kite in flight dropping burning brand (it looks to me) held in its talons. Cut to bushfire.

It should be noted that the introduction on the trailer states,
"For tens of thousands of years, indigenous people have been telling the stories of this ancient land and its creatures."

It is not called magical by mistake. A number of other shorts from their Facebook page also allude to magic in the supernatural sense of the world.

It will be interesting to find out where (or how) they obtained that short footage. Trained bird? CGI? Real life?

Too bad we have to wait until next week for the "Land" episode to find out.
Of course, being a public entity, the ABC is probably obliged to answer such a question if it was put to their production group.

Skeptic Ginger · 6th February 2019, 05:50 PM

Video says error for me.

I love that spider, BTW.

macdoc · 6th February 2019, 09:27 PM

Wow Dann - so invested in denial of a very reasonable behaviour by smart predators. Perhaps travel to Oz and interview the people who have seen it.

EHocking · 6th February 2019, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Video says error for me.

I love that spider, BTW.

Probably due to country restrictions.

I’ll be looking for shareable media after the show has aired.

novaphile · 7th February 2019, 02:34 AM

Originally Posted by EHocking

Probably due to country restrictions.

I’ll be looking for shareable media after the show has aired.

If it is ABC Australia, you may be disappointed. They seem to aggressively block external access (i.e. other countries).

Maybe use a VPN which allows you to appear as a local?

EHocking · 8th February 2019, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by novaphile

If it is ABC Australia, you may be disappointed. They seem to aggressively block external access (i.e. other countries).

Maybe use a VPN which allows you to appear as a local?

I won’t be disappointed.
(hint: my hint was to Skeptic Ginger who was unable to view the trailer)

Dabop · 8th February 2019, 04:58 AM

I contacted them to both ask for permission to use that portion of the clip, plus asked who was the original person who shot it, hopefully will get something back

macdoc · 8th February 2019, 01:09 PM

do you guys not use VPN ?

With DeepFake tech it won't be believed anyways so why bother since eye witnesses seem to not to alter some ingrained views.v

Dabop · 9th February 2019, 03:51 PM

I've watched it (I'm in Oz, so it works fine for me) it clearly shows a raptor picking up a smoldering stick, and then of it dropping it again, I was hoping to find the location etc of the original footage and who shot it

macdoc · 16th February 2019, 12:05 PM

No indication of trained bird jesses in this shot tho easy to edit out

very easy to CG this shot

maybe more detail when the segment airs.

https://support.unlocator.com/articl...-to-setup-os-x

unlocator may work better for this than VPN

William Parcher · 16th February 2019, 12:59 PM

Is that supposed to be the same bird with the same stick in both photos?

Elagabalus · 16th February 2019, 01:14 PM

It's here. It's just the trailer but it plays for me.

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Goto 0:15

macdoc · 17th February 2019, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Is that supposed to be the same bird with the same stick in both photos?

you are meant to think that certainly. Clearly some more detail is needed. Second bird is for sure a kite which are on of the suspect species and are all over the outback

The next episode is on in 1/2 hour Brisbane Aus time on SBS.

https://www.episodate.com/tv-show/th...cal-land-of-oz

7th May 2018, 01:48 PM	#361
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon These raptors can always be seen in numbers circling and swooping around the many small, cool bushfires that are starting to consume a season’s worth of dry grass and fallen timber. If I had more time I might have pulled off the road on my way home today and watched the birds working one such fire. How hard can it be to film them not just working such fire, but setting and spreading it as well?!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

7th May 2018, 05:16 PM	#363
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 975	Originally Posted by dann What makes you think that I think that every inch of Oz is covered by CCTV??? I am?! That's news to me! Where exactly am I extrapolating that?! What I've been pointing out for a very long time is that this alleged phenomenon with so much anecdotal evidence behind it still hasn't been captured on film, in spite of all the cameras everywhere. Apparently some bushfires do break out in areas with CCTV, and some people make expeditions with the sole purpose of filming fire-starting birds - so far with nothing to show for it. If I were to argue like you and macdoc, I would now resort to something along the lines of: After 40,000 years of eyewitness reports - and still not one second of actual footage! Firstly the cctv cameras were not at the park, they were in the surrounding areas... Secondly, people are not only dissuaded from "make expeditions with the sole purpose of filming fire-starting birds", but can (and will) face criminal charges if they do not leave the area when told to by firefighters (and they will be, it's a dangerous place to be, firefighters have died fighting fires) Thirdly firefighters themselves tend not to be wandering around ignoring the fire to watch and film the birds... As some may have mentioned before, Oz is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated, it is not confirmed, neither is it unconfirmed. I have no doubt there are many places that have never had a single photo or video taken of them ever, yet do these places not exist? And with that, I am leaving the conversation unless something new comes up, it is pointless going around and around over the same points
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 975	__________________ It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader 'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin

10th May 2018, 03:07 AM	#364
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	So Australia "is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated", too BIIIIG and too sparsely populated for people to film birds spreading fires, but exactly the right size for (allegedly) observing them do so! 1) Apparently CCTV cameras can only catch sight of actual arsonists, but not the alleged birds. 2) We know that some people have made expeditions with the explicit purpose to film these alleged avian activities, but when actual footage still hasn't appeared, it's because "they will be" told by firefighters not to do so. 3) And firefighters are so busy paying attention to the fires that they couldn't possibly catch sight of the birds spreading them and pull out their cellphones and film them doing so. (I guess there are also strict penalties for doing so because of a conspiracy to prevent the truth from being revealed, aren't there?! And the real assignment of all the bushfire detectives is to cover up all the obvious tracks of fire-spreading birds, right?!) Yes, it all seems very logical! We are supposed to believe the anecdotes without any hard evidence because circumstances just prevent hard evidence form being obtained in spite of the prevalence of modern cellphones with video features and several posted photos of bushfires and birds online but never a single one of a bird with a burning twig in its beak. (Where do we usually hear similar excuses?!)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 10th May 2018 at 04:15 AM.

1st June 2018, 06:53 AM	#365
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	Guess who appears to be under consideration for an Ig Nobel Prize: improbableresearch.com
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 1st June 2018 at 06:55 AM.

1st June 2018, 10:45 AM	#367
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	Wow Dann your ignorance of Australia, how to film wildlife, especially birds in flight and even the tenents of skepticism are sure on full display in that rant.
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries}

7th May 2018, 02:08 PM	#362
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,428	Originally Posted by dann How hard can it be to film them not just working such fire, but setting and spreading it as well?! Not hard at all. Just have to be there at the right time. But must as not every heron will go fishing with a piece of bread that you throw it, not every hawk is going to engage in this behaviour every time. However if you have a lot of time on your hands and are keen enough it seems worthwhile to put in the hours of observation and recording their behaviour around fires.

1st June 2018, 10:32 AM	#366
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,428	Originally Posted by dann So Australia "is a BIIIIG place, and sparsely populated", too BIIIIG and too sparsely populated for people to film birds spreading fires, but exactly the right size for (allegedly) observing them do so! 1) Apparently CCTV cameras can only catch sight of actual arsonists, but not the alleged birds. 2) We know that some people have made expeditions with the explicit purpose to film these alleged avian activities, but when actual footage still hasn't appeared, it's because "they will be" told by firefighters not to do so. 3) And firefighters are so busy paying attention to the fires that they couldn't possibly catch sight of the birds spreading them and pull out their cellphones and film them doing so. (I guess there are also strict penalties for doing so because of a conspiracy to prevent the truth from being revealed, aren't there?! And the real assignment of all the bushfire detectives is to cover up all the obvious tracks of fire-spreading birds, right?!) Yes, it all seems very logical! We are supposed to believe the anecdotes without any hard evidence because circumstances just prevent hard evidence form being obtained in spite of the prevalence of modern cellphones with video features and several posted photos of bushfires and birds online but never a single one of a bird with a burning twig in its beak. (Where do we usually hear similar excuses?!) Straw burns well.

2nd June 2018, 08:36 AM	#368
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	I sure hope they win! This year it's Sep. 13, 2018, and unless they come up with footage before that time, I think they stand a chance of at least being shortlisted. And we have them in Europe, too! Well, I guess I'll just settle for the T-shirt ...
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 2nd June 2018 at 08:41 AM.

2nd June 2018, 12:51 PM	#369
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	Avian arsonists spreading fire through the ages I almost forgot this one, which shows that the the UK seems to have been haunted by these fire-starting birds even as late as the 1950s! And they also appear to be terrorizing Central Park in New York! It’s about time something was done about this menace to humanity! There’s even a picture of brave firefighters trying to put out the burning twigs carried by these devious dino descendants! Quote: Burton linked this avian love of fire and smoke to “anting”, which typically involves birds disturbing ants’ nests to expose themselves to formic acid that may act as a fungicide, bactericide and insect repellent. He cites a report by a fire brigade officer in 1950s Guildford, UK, of a nest smouldering in a tree, and he notes of a fire 8 metres up a tree in New York’s Central Park that “it is one of the unfortunate features of these entries in fire-brigade journals that they are laconic in the extreme”. Avian arsonists spreading fire through the ages (New Scientist, Feb. 3, 2018, p. 52)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

14th September 2018, 12:08 AM	#373
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	So still no evidence of birds starting fires? Apart from old myths and hear-say ... Well, that makes sense. It's not that no research is done into to relationship between birds and fires, real research, but still not a single piece of evidence in the case of the fire-starting birds!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

14th September 2018, 12:13 AM	#374
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,420	Cut it out. Underestimate birds’ intelligence at your own peril. But to raise the igNoble awards in support of your own shaky position smacks of desperation. I have nothing against you and enjoy many of your posts, but the way you have ignored evidence contrary to your views in this thread is just sad.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

15th September 2018, 05:00 AM	#375
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	No actual evidence was ever presented. And pointing out that no evidence was presented has nothing to do with underestimating birds' intelligence. I can appreciate birds' intelligence without making up stories about birds starting fires. Strawman. I look forward to either proof that they do or the acknowledgement that, no, now we've been trying to film birds starting fires for decades, but we have to admit that they don't seem to do so, so the claim that they do was probably false.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

17th September 2018, 11:18 PM	#376
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	Remember that the aim of the paper was to try to prove that Dreamtime stories are historical documents. If it were the Bible and not the Noble Savage syndrome, most proponents of this idea would not be so vociferous in their support of this idea. This is religious science and as such, doesn’t rely on the same level of scrutiny of “data”. Anecdotes = data therefore TRUE.
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	__________________ Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite

18th September 2018, 10:06 AM	#377
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	sure Quote: It is a fundamental requirement of scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world, rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation. Hence, science is considered to be methodologically empirical in nature. Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management. It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE. Accepted wisdom was the night parrot was extinct for a century ...until it wasn't. Quote: New Australian Night Parrots Discovery — Extinct Birds Found Alive ... https://www.audubon.org/.../yes-more...een-discovered Nov 1, 2016 - The nocturnal bird is so rare that it was once thought to be extinct. documenting a behavior that is completely within the capability of the species involved and that has been observed ,multiple times, takes time and effort and this one is not subject in the least to your "disbelief"....... That only shows the level of your ignorance.... With your attitude, you'd claim video evidence was "one off" or faked.... your mind is made up so your refuge is to ridicule observations made by people in the field. Pathetic hardly covers it. Observations and video and still nothing conclusive https://www.news.com.au/technology/s...9275ca0f21d89c It means that there is material worth pursuing. Significant snip Quote: “Look, negative people are always going to be negative and there’s nothing you can do about that,” Mr Day said.
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries} Last edited by macdoc; 18th September 2018 at 10:37 AM.

18th September 2018, 11:10 PM	#378
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	Originally Posted by macdoc sure Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management. It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE. I guess you're right. I wonder why they included all that junk about Aboriginal myths etc in the paper's references then? References Cited … Berndt, R. M., and C. H. Berndt. 1994. The Speaking Land. Myth and Story in Aboriginal Australia. Inner Traditions International, Rochester, VT. … Capell, A. 1960a. The Wandarang and Other Tribal Myths of the Yabuduruwa Ritual. Oceania 30:206–224. Crossref, Capell, A. 1960b. Myths and Tales of the Nunggubuyu, S. E. Arnhem Land. Oceania 31:31–62. Crossref, … Frazer, J. G. 1930. Myths of the Origin of Fire: An Essay. MacMillan and Co, London, UK. … Holmes, C., dir.1965. The Yabuduwra Ceremony of the Lower Roper River [Film].Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studies, Canberra. … Maddock, K. J. 1969. The Jabuduruwa: A Study of the Structure of Rite and Myth in an Australian Aboriginal Religious Cult on the Beswick Reserve, Northern Territory. Unpublished Doctoral Dissertation, University of Sydney, Sydney. Maddock, K. J. 1970. Myths of the Acquisition of Fire in Northern and Eastern Australia. InAustralian Aboriginal Anthropology: Modern Studies in the Social Anthropology of the Australian Aborigines, edited by R. M. Berndt, pp. 174–199. University of Western Australia Press, Perth. … Waterman, P. P. 1987. A Tale-Type Index of Australian Aboriginal Oral Narratives. Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia, Helsinki, Finland. Google Scholar And let's not forget. ... Tidemann, S., and A. Gosler. 2010. Ethno-ornithology: Birds, Indigenous Peoples, Culture and Society. Earthscan, London UK and Washington D.C. … An except on ethno-ornithology? This book looks at the significance of indigenous knowledge of birds and their cultural significance, and how these can assist in framing research methods of western scientists working in related areas The fact that this is ethno-biology should be a huge hint to you that it is ALL tied up with indigenous myth and legend. Quote: Accepted wisdom was the night parrot was extinct for a century ...until it wasn't. ... until definitive evidence for its existence was brought to the scientific community. Wake me in a century when this lot have more that mere anecdotes. Perhaps then the accepted wisdom will be turned on it's head. In the meantime - uncompelling. Quote: documenting a behavior that is completely within the capability of the species involved and that has been observed ,multiple times, takes time and effort and this one is not subject in the least to your "disbelief"....... I am sceptical. Belief has nothing to do with it. Remember the Ivory-billed Woodpecker fiasco? Accepted wisdom was the IBWP was extinct - until it was found to be (again). Mountains and mountains of anecdotal "evidence", costing millions of dollars to collect, collate and study, only underlined the fact that it is still extinct. Quote: That only shows the level of your ignorance.... With your attitude, you'd claim video evidence was "one off" or faked.... your mind is made up so your refuge is to ridicule observations made by people in the field. IBWP QED. Quote: Pathetic hardly covers it. ad hom attacks are usually the last resort of an argument being lost. . . Quote: Observations and video and still nothing conclusive This is exactly my point. Inconclusive. So the sensible position (e.g., Night Parrot and IBWP) is that it has not been demonstrated. Quote: https://www.news.com.au/technology/s...9275ca0f21d89c It means that there is material worth pursuing. But has it been? I mean, but actual biologists, not some unqualified nutjob with a website and a Facebook page. If not, why not? You would have thought his claim of 4700 thylacine sightings since it was declared extinct should have elicited some interest from the scientific community. That seems way more "evidence" than the other lot have for fire-starting kites.
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	__________________ Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite

19th September 2018, 02:31 AM	#379
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	Originally Posted by macdoc Quote: “Look, negative people are always going to be negative and there’s nothing you can do about that,” Mr Day said. You are aware that this is what it always comes down to when we are dealing with woos, aren't you? 'You have to keep an open mind!' However, I don't think that any of the participants in this thread who are skeptical about the idea that birds start fires (and that they do so deliberately!) have declared that it is impossible and completely out the question that birds might be able to start fires and maybe even to do so deliberately. We also don't hate birds or look down on them. (Nor do we despise the indigenous population of Australia, but we do know that they weren't scientifically educated observers.) What we are saying is that those of you who believe in the idea should be aware that there is no actual proof - instead of resorting to wooism just because somebody doubts your favourite hypothesis. I tend to think that this proof will never appear. You, macdoc and others, think that it will. Quote: Observations and video and still nothing conclusive So far: anecdotal evidence only. What I have been pointing out is that, this day and age, the more anecdotal evidence you have, the more bothered I am by the lack of real footage, real evidence, because nowadays everybody has a video recording device. (Birds are more difficult to fake than Bigfoot, of course, so if actual reliable footage appears, you'll have convinced me.)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

19th September 2018, 03:22 PM	#380
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,428	These are not extraordinary claims. There is helping yourself to the ontological buffet of your imagination thereby ignoring Occam’s razor.

19th September 2018, 03:51 PM	#381
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,342	Originally Posted by macdoc Get over it ....the phenomena has been reliably witnessed by multiple observers including those tasked with fire management. It has zilch to do with Dreamtime myths beyond similar observations over time being made BY THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE THERE. By that criteria - we should just accept the fact that Bigfoot or Sasquatch exists because the "people that live there" have reported sightings and there are reports by "those tasked with fire management" that the bodies of Bigfoots were removed by the government by helicopter sling after the Mt St. Helens eruption.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,342	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt*

19th September 2018, 04:04 PM	#382
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,428	Originally Posted by rockinkt By that criteria - we should just accept the fact that Bigfoot or Sasquatch exists because the "people that live there" have reported sightings and there are reports by "those tasked with fire management" that the bodies of Bigfoots were removed by the government by helicopter sling after the Mt St. Helens eruption. Intelligent actions by birds universally are accepted. Particular instances of these while interesting are mundane claims in comparison to the Bigfoot claims, which fail many predicted observations that would be true if they were real.
	Last edited by Sideroxylon; 19th September 2018 at 04:05 PM.

19th September 2018, 05:40 PM	#383
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,342	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon Intelligent actions by birds universally are accepted. Particular instances of these while interesting are mundane claims in comparison to the Bigfoot claims, which fail many predicted observations that would be true if they were real. The burden of proof is not met in either case by anecdotal evidence.
rockinkt Master Poster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,342	__________________ "Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." *Steve Earle* "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." *Townes Van Zandt* Last edited by rockinkt; 19th September 2018 at 05:41 PM. Reason: succinctness

19th September 2018, 06:51 PM	#384
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,428	Originally Posted by rockinkt The burden of proof is not met in either case by anecdotal evidence. Do you agree with the concept of extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence? If so what kind of evidence do mundane claims require? The out of hand dismissal of indigenous lore and packing it off as religion is undeserved.

19th September 2018, 08:19 PM	#385
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	Quote: For that reason alone, our relationship to them is unlike our connection to any other ... The intellect of birds is arguably the closest in the animal world to our own. from https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/b...9780812983760/ Spend a little money and learn something.... Picking up a burning stick to spread flames to aid hunting IS mundane as is chimps using tools to spear bushbabies or crack nuts., gulls dropping snails to crack them open or sea otters using rocks to crack shell fish or whales using bubble nets to trap fish ....etc etc ...but some seem to think they are extraordinary claims......pure unadulterated horsepucky Get over yourselves, you're not the only smart ones on the planet tho you've given enough reason in this thread to provide exceptions to the "smart" aspect... Indigenes all over the planet and to this day use fire to hunt and have perhaps even before modern humans arose. Why ever would you consider it beyond a carnivore that has dwelt in the region of fire and brush for millenia to sort it out? Related species pack hunt and the 3 species of raptor involved are patently NOT in the least afraid of fire. Crows can figure out problems from first principles merely by looking at the available materials and the problem .....without trial and error. Living thylacine in Queensland requires extraordinary proof....not a smart predator spreading fire to hunt.
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19th September 2018, 10:06 PM	#386
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,428	Originally Posted by Sideroxylon These are not extraordinary claims. There is helping yourself to the ontological buffet of your imagination thereby ignoring Occam’s razor. Should have read “there is not a helping yourself..”

20th September 2018, 03:49 AM	#387
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	Originally Posted by macdoc Picking up a burning stick to spread flames to aid hunting IS mundane as is chimps using tools to spear bushbabies or crack nuts., gulls dropping snails to crack them open or sea otters using rocks to crack shell fish or whales using bubble nets to trap fish ....etc etc You can resort to as much as you want, but it doesn't really support your claim. For some reason fire and the wheel are celebrated as extraordinary human accomplishments. Sticks? No, not so much ... By the way, have you seen the footage of chimps spearing hushbabies and using rocks to crack nuts? Have you seen footage of gulls cracking snails and mussels by dropping them onto stones from a great height? Have you seen footage of otters using rocks to crack shell fish? Have you seen footage of dolphins using bubble nets to trap fish? Have you seen footage of crows and parrots solving relatively complicated problems? So have we!!! What we are still missing is footage of birds starting fires! You seem to think that the other cases support your claim. They don't. On the contrary, actually. They just serve to make the difference much more obvious. (We have also seen footage of the okapi. We haven't seen any of Bigfoot. Does that tell you anything?!) Quote: Get over yourselves, you're not the only smart ones on the planet tho you've given enough reason in this thread to provide exceptions to the "smart" aspect... So you consider the call for proof to be a sign of inferior intelligence. I'm not at all surprised.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 20th September 2018 at 03:51 AM.

6th February 2019, 04:37 PM	#388
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	ABC captures black kite starting fire Or certainly that's what the trailer for their new short natural histories series, "The Magical Land of Oz" seems to want us to think. https://iview.abc.net.au/show/magical-land-of-oz In the trailer we see a closeup of the head/shoulders of, what looks like, a Black Kite picking up a smouldering brand in it's beak. Cut to Black Kite in flight dropping burning brand (it looks to me) held in its talons. Cut to bushfire. It should be noted that the introduction on the trailer states, "For tens of thousands of years, indigenous people have been telling the stories of this ancient land and its creatures." It is not called magical by mistake. A number of other shorts from their Facebook page also allude to magic in the supernatural sense of the world. It will be interesting to find out where (or how) they obtained that short footage. Trained bird? CGI? Real life? Too bad we have to wait until next week for the "Land" episode to find out. Of course, being a public entity, the ABC is probably obliged to answer such a question if it was put to their production group.
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	__________________ Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite

6th February 2019, 05:50 PM	#389
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 93,917	Video says error for me. I love that spider, BTW.

6th February 2019, 09:27 PM	#390
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	Wow Dann - so invested in denial of a very reasonable behaviour by smart predators. Perhaps travel to Oz and interview the people who have seen it.
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries}

6th February 2019, 10:36 PM	#391
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Video says error for me. I love that spider, BTW. Probably due to country restrictions. I’ll be looking for shareable media after the show has aired.
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	__________________ Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite

7th February 2019, 02:34 AM	#392
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 4,933	Originally Posted by EHocking Probably due to country restrictions. I’ll be looking for shareable media after the show has aired. If it is ABC Australia, you may be disappointed. They seem to aggressively block external access (i.e. other countries). Maybe use a VPN which allows you to appear as a local?
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

8th February 2019, 01:35 AM	#393
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	Originally Posted by novaphile If it is ABC Australia, you may be disappointed. They seem to aggressively block external access (i.e. other countries). Maybe use a VPN which allows you to appear as a local? I won’t be disappointed. (hint: my hint was to Skeptic Ginger who was unable to view the trailer)
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	__________________ Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite

8th February 2019, 04:58 AM	#394
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 975	I contacted them to both ask for permission to use that portion of the clip, plus asked who was the original person who shot it, hopefully will get something back
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 975	__________________ It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader 'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin

8th February 2019, 01:09 PM	#395
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	do you guys not use VPN ? With DeepFake tech it won't be believed anyways so why bother since eye witnesses seem to not to alter some ingrained views.v
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9th February 2019, 03:51 PM	#396
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 975	I've watched it (I'm in Oz, so it works fine for me) it clearly shows a raptor picking up a smoldering stick, and then of it dropping it again, I was hoping to find the location etc of the original footage and who shot it
Dabop Muse Join Date: May 2015 Location: Oz Posts: 975	__________________ It's a kind of a strawman thing in that it's exactly a strawman thing. Loss Leader 'When you're born into this world, you're given a ticket to the freak show. If you're born in America you get a front row seat.' George Carlin

16th February 2019, 12:05 PM	#397
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	No indication of trained bird jesses in this shot tho easy to edit out very easy to CG this shot maybe more detail when the segment airs. https://support.unlocator.com/articl...-to-setup-os-x unlocator may work better for this than VPN
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries} Last edited by macdoc; 16th February 2019 at 12:12 PM.

16th February 2019, 12:59 PM	#398
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,163	Is that supposed to be the same bird with the same stick in both photos?
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.