So: Many experts now agree ... some birds use fire as a weapon. - Page 3

dann · 16th January 2018, 01:28 AM

Some locals were sceptical:

Quote:

Previously, some local experts had been sceptical of whether hawks were setting fires intentionally—or were merely doing so unintentionally.
“If [hawks] have missed the prey and perhaps grabbed a stick... they will then drop that stick or rock,” wrote Anthony Molyneux of the Alice Springs Desert Park in 2011. “If the stick is smouldering or on fire, it will then start another fire.”
Why these birds carry flames in their beaks (National Geographic, Jan. 8, 2018)

MikeG · 16th January 2018, 01:39 AM

Even that is a mountain of deduction based on a molehill of evidence.

lionking · 16th January 2018, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

How can they know this? Aboriginals didn't write anything down, nor date their oral histories.

It can be very dangerous to question aboriginal claims......

Now OT, but one so-called aborigine historian told me that as there was no oral history of aborigines coming to Australia, they must have evolved here. I'm serious. He wouldn't be swayed by the fact that there is no evidence of great apes ever existing in Australia.

Personally I take all claims based on ancient aboriginal oral traditions with a huge grain of salt.

dann · 16th January 2018, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Even that is a mountain of deduction based on a molehill of evidence.

What is a mountain of deduction? That a fire may start if a hawk picks up a smoldering stick and drops it again in dry grass???!

MikeG · 16th January 2018, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by dann

What is a mountain of deduction? That a fire may start if a hawk picks up a smoldering stick and drops it again in dry grass???!

Everything from "if" onwards. No-one has produced any evidence that any bird has ever done this, let alone developed it as a feeding strategy.

dann · 16th January 2018, 05:34 AM

It is merely a hypothesis, hence to two ifs:
If a hawk has actually managed to set fire to something - they don't claim that it has - it might have been accidental rather than deliberate.

My own hypotheses if ... was that it might have picked up a stick or a straw for the purpose of nest building/maintenance. A 'hunting accident' is just another hypothesis that doesn't require intentionality.

William Parcher · 18th January 2018, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by EHocking

Your daughter's response did it for me.

This is the confirmation bias I was talking about. The researchers are taking Dreamings literally. Let us just examine the firebird Dreaming for a second.

(this from a workshop on the mythologies)

Black Kite, Chicken Hawk (Kerrk – Malamalak, Num – Matngala). Milvus migrans. Often seen flying around near fires hunting for insects and small lizards escaping the fire. The name refers to its distinctive call “kerrk-kerrk-kerrk“. In the creation period or dreamtime, Kerrk stole fire sticks from the Dingo, so that he could cook the Ckeeky yam. Kerrk is still attracted to fires and occasionally he can be seen carrying burning sticks from an existing fire to start more fires further away.

Are we really meant to take this literally?
For starters - Dingoes now make fire?
Black Kites cook and eat yams?

These are Dreaming stories.

As for accurate observations, let's just see how accurate they are.

The workshop allowed for clarification of the rather confusing overlap of three bird names, karrkkanj, ngalmirlangmirlang and wunwunbu. Karrkkanj, it turns out, is a term for the Black Kite but can also be applied to two other raptor species, the Peregrine Falcon and the Brown Falcon.

Really?
They apparently confuse Black Kites with Peregrine and Brown Falcons?
That's not very observant. I could tell the difference by the time I was 11.
But of course, this is not about direct observations of a phenomenon, but "researchers" forcing fireside (hah!) stories to fit their confirmation bias.

Here is the Dreamtime explanation for the apparent confusion between these species, "The Peregrine Falcon can also be known more specifically as ngalmirlangmirlang and the Brown Falcon as wunwunbu; these are said to be husband and wife."
As a participant tells it, “Back in the Dreamtime, we believed animals were like us, the birds, all the reptiles were people like us.”
Taking these stories literally would require us to believe that male Peregrine only breed with female Brown Falcons.
If these were Bible stories, would we be having the same conversation in this thread?

Next scientific paper coming up from this group of researchers...

The Yowie Exists. (Photos and videos will be presented when available to show what the Aborigine People have always known about.)

luchog · 18th January 2018, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

It can be very dangerous to question aboriginal claims......

Now OT, but one so-called aborigine historian told me that as there was no oral history of aborigines coming to Australia, they must have evolved here. I'm serious. He wouldn't be swayed by the fact that there is no evidence of great apes ever existing in Australia.

Personally I take all claims based on ancient aboriginal oral traditions with a huge grain of salt.

Many of the aboriginal peoples are strongly opposed to having their genomes sequenced, for the sole reason that doing so challenges their belief that they originated in Australia during the Dreamtime, rather than originating in Africa like the rest of us.

smartcooky · 18th January 2018, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by luchog

Many of the aboriginal peoples are strongly opposed to having their genomes sequenced, for the sole reason that doing so challenges their belief that they originated in Australia during the Dreamtime, rather than originating in Africa like the rest of us.

Same applies to many Native American tribes. They claim to have originated in North America and disagree with the fact that their ancestors came across the Bering land bridge.

Elagabalus · 19th January 2018, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Same applies to many Native American tribes. They claim to have originated in North America and disagree with the fact that their ancestors came across the Bering land bridge.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. They could have gone down and around. Given the same departure point, their genes would still be the same.

Cheetah · 19th January 2018, 03:21 AM

Down where? Around what?

This is The End · 19th January 2018, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by MikeG

Dropping a shellfish onto hard ground involves 1 prediction: "drop this here and it breaks".

Picking up a burning stick to start a fire elsewhere involves 2 predictions: "drop this here and it will start a fire" and
"if a fire starts, prey animals will be driven from cover".

It appears that being favorable to one of the examples has made you leave out the exact same part of the second analogy from the first analogy.

Quote:

Dropping a shellfish onto hard ground involves 2 predictions: "drop this here and it breaks". and "if it breaks, the food will be expelled from the container"

Picking up a burning stick to start a fire elsewhere involves 2 predictions: "drop this here and it will start a fire" and
"if a fire starts, prey animals will be expelled from cover".

dann · 19th January 2018, 12:27 PM

There's a big difference between picking up something that you want to eat, but can't crack, and picking up something that has nothing to do with what you want to eat, doesn't look or smell like anything you want to eat, and may even burn you.

dann · 19th January 2018, 02:31 PM

The important thing here is that "dropping a shellfish onto hard ground" doesn't necessarily involve any predictions at all, at first. It may happen accidentally: bird drops shellfish, oyster, walnut, whatever, on hard ground, picks it up again and notices that it has cracked and is 'pret a manger'.
I don't know how many accidental droppings it will take for a bird brain to learn that this seems to work.
However, picking up something as inedible, unpleasant and potentially damaging as a burning stick, dropping it because you don't want it near you, waiting for it to start a fire, waiting for the fire to scare away prey animals?! Whole different ball game!

EHocking · 19th January 2018, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by dann

There's a big difference between picking up something that you want to eat, but can't crack, and picking up something that has nothing to do with what you want to eat, doesn't look or smell like anything you want to eat, and may even burn you.

I can (only just) see it perhaps happening by accident. Bird grabs prey in burnt out area behind fire front and accidentally picks up debris.

Now I've bee an avid birder for the best part of 45 years.
A lot of it in Australia and a lot of it in the bush.
I have never seen any birds of prey accidentally pick up debris with their prey.

So I don't know what is happening with these unverified anecdotes of birds picking up brands.

dann · 21st January 2018, 06:38 AM

Some birds seem to be able to manufacture and use primitive tools, but I have never seen any bird deliberately pick up something recognizably unpleasant and harmful.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

What some crows can do is pretty amazing, but I would still like to see something akin to the water displacement test done with candles and matches.

By the way, my love birds loved to push things off shelves and tables to let them drop to the floor. They seemed to enjoy the noise it made and usually flew down to see (some people would probably say, "to investigate") what had happened to the objects.
We soon learned not to let them into any rooms with fragile stuff on the shelves. Only stuff too heavy for them to push down was safe from this behavior.

MikeG · 21st January 2018, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by EHocking

........I don't know what is happening with these unverified anecdotes of birds picking up brands.

Confirmation bias. Observers in the field looking for evidence to support aboriginal stories, which they have some sort of incentive to support, see (or think they see) something which supports aboriginal stories.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st January 2018, 01:57 PM

Dann, you are simply arguing from incredulity. No need for long examples and explanations.

We don't know from the anecdotal evidence we have so far, but claiming it isn't possible goes against scientific principles.

dann · 21st January 2018, 02:19 PM

Now all you have to do is find somebody who claims that "it isn't possible"!
Personally, I think it's improbable.

EHocking · 22nd January 2018, 05:58 PM

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not after these exchanges.

Originally Posted by MikeG

Originally Posted by EHocking

...Of course if you are an eye witness to behaviour that appears to support your religious beliefs or merely your knowledge of this belief, you might not pay that much attention to the details. Typical of confirmation bias.

What is it about this supposed behaviour of birds which is a religious belief?

So here ^^^ you question what this has to do with religious belief,
and then next you state it is all to do with religious belief.

Originally Posted by MikeG

Originally Posted by EHocking

...So I don't know what is happening with these unverified anecdotes of birds picking up brands.

Confirmation bias. Observers in the field looking for evidence to support aboriginal stories, which they have some sort of incentive to support, see (or think they see) something which supports aboriginal stories.

macdoc · 22nd January 2018, 08:15 PM

So this is "accidental" I suppose

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614

480/Master-fisherman-heron-catches-fish-using-bread-bait.html

snip

Quote:

This green heron's fishing methods, while impressive, are not unusual.

The bird is known to crouch in shallow water, waiting to surprise fish with its dagger-like beak.

And if there's no bread handy, the heron will use insects, twigs or even its own feathers.

Herons are the bait-fishing champions of the world, with seven of the 12 species of bird known to use bait to catch fish being herons.

The outback is pretty sparse of game ...any bright kite could associate spreading fire with better results....

I don't think it's a stretch at all.

Quote:

Tool making in crows, and bait-fishing in birds
Crows of Caledonia are known to prepare sticks and adjust their size, or bend metal hooks for hunting larvae in wood. Ravens are known to pool fishermen’s bait out of the water, and steal their fish. Crows all over the world are known to lift up pecan nuts and drop them on the road to crack and eat them. They are also known for using this technique to break clams on rocks. However, giving up bread in order to gain fish is unique, mostly because the crow gives up some resource it owns (food), not just expending energy.

They understand action and consequence and predict future outcomes giving up one resource....bread ...for a better resource ..fish..

People simply are stuck in the "dumb animals" mind set

Three different species.....get that locked down mindset opened up a bit.

Quote:

A new study based on numerous observations has identified three species of birds of prey that deliberately spread forest fires to force animals to flee the flames and therefore be able to hunt them more easily.

http://electronicnewsnetwork.com/sci...unt-201032920/

I'm also a life longer twitcher and live in Australia part time ....I see nothing in the reports that would not make this a feasible observation of wild bird behavior.

Just recall the shock of the black swan before you pronounce "no birds hunt with fire ".

Quote:

Dick Eussen thought he had the fire beat. It was stuck on one side of a highway deep in the Australian outback. But it didn’t look set to jump. And then, suddenly, without warning or obvious cause, it did.

Eussen, a veteran firefighter in the Northern Territory, set off after the new flames. He found them, put them out, then looked up into the sky.

What he saw sounds now like something out of a fairy tale or dark myth. A whistling kite, wings spread, held a burning twig in its talons. It flew about 20 metres ahead of Eussen and dropped the ember into the brittle grass.

And the fire kicked off once again.

All told that day, Eussen put out seven new flare-ups, according to a research paper published recently in the Journal of Ethnobiology. All of them, he claims, were caused by the birds and their burning sticks.

Occam's razor sez was the birds wut done it....not drop bears.

Quote:

“MJ,” a Kimberley, (Western Australia) cattle station caretaker manager … saw kites working together to move a late dry season fire across a river by picking up, transporting, and dropping small, burning sticks in grass, which immediately ignited in several places,” they write. “The experience resulted in an uncontrollable blaze that destroyed part of the station’s infrastructure.”

Quote:

Bob White, a firefighter in the Northern Territory saw a small group of raptors, likely black kites, “pick up numerous smouldering sticks and transport them ahead of a fire front, successfully helping the blaze spread up a small valley.”

Don't take Skeptik scout badge too seriously

macdoc · 22nd January 2018, 10:23 PM

We have multiple observations across multiple species.

We have a trained scientist with a published hypothesis for the observations

We have parallel anticipatory behaviour by other birds.

All I've heard in response is codswallop....oh bird brains can't do THAT, people living there for 40,000 years must be wrong, firefighters doing the observations must be mistaken ......yada yada

lionking · 22nd January 2018, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by macdoc

We have multiple observations across multiple species.

We have a trained scientist with a published hypothesis for the observations

We have parallel anticipatory behaviour by other birds.

All I've heard in response is codswallop....oh bird brains can't do THAT, people living there for 40,000 years must be wrong, firefighters doing the observations must be mistaken ......yada yada

Yeah, all we are waiting on is that pesky little thing called evidence. Not saying that people are mistaken. Also not a lot to ask for.

JJM 777 · 23rd January 2018, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Yeggster

Some experts now agree, with old tales aboriginal people have told for centuries

Though no evidence exists, despite efforts to detect the said phenomenon. But tales, yes.

MikeG · 23rd January 2018, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by EHocking

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not after these exchanges.

So here ^^^ you question what this has to do with religious belief,
and then next you state it is all to do with religious belief.

I had no idea whether I'm agreeing with you or not. I asked a straightforward non-loaded question. However, this response of yours does lead me into disagreement with you, because I don't accept aboriginal oral traditions are religious. It isn't a religious belief that birds set their own fires.........it is word-of-mouth received wisdom. To claim otherwise would be to accept that "red sky at night, shepherds' delight" is some sort of religious incantation.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2018, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Yeah, all we are waiting on is that pesky little thing called evidence. Not saying that people are mistaken. Also not a lot to ask for.

Just to be precise, there is evidence, but at this point it is only anecdotal and insufficient to support the conclusion.

I do get annoyed when people don't consider anecdotal evidence at all just because some anecdotal evidence is unreliable.

lionking · 23rd January 2018, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Just to be precise, there is evidence, but at this point it is only anecdotal and insufficient to support the conclusion.

I do get annoyed when people don't consider anecdotal evidence at all just because some anecdotal evidence is unreliable.

Sorry SG, "anecdotal" and "evidence" shouldn't be used in the same sentence.

Sideroxylon · 23rd January 2018, 01:41 AM

This is my part of the world and would love to be the first to get some video. We are in the middle of the monsoon right now but come the dry reckon it might be worth observing the goings on the edge of one of our common dry season grass fires. Hawks are always overhead waiting for snakes and rodents to break cover in their escape.

This sort of behaviour doesn’t surprise me at all given the many intelligent things birds are known to do.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

macdoc · 23rd January 2018, 07:56 AM

Even video, unless like one of the heron videos that documents the behaviour end to end ....the naysayers will have an excuse...." it's accidental", they are warming their nest etc etc ad nauseum,

William Parcher · 23rd January 2018, 08:07 AM

I betcha those firefighters who say they saw it happen are Aborigines.

dann · 23rd January 2018, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by macdoc

So this is "accidental" I suppose

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614

480/Master-fisherman-heron-catches-fish-using-bread-bait.html

snip

No, it doesn't appear to be accidental. Did anybody claim that it was?

And if you combine the text of the article with the video you can learn a lot.
This is the link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...read-bait.html (Your linking skills leave a lot to be desired!)

The text claims that, "The catch of the day is a huge fish almost as big as the bird."

And what you can learn is how unreliable witness reports often are even when, like in this case, the witness can watch the video again and again. "almost as big as the bird." Come on!

Yet you want to rule out the possibility that the firefighters might have embellished a little on their stories about avian arsonists! Most of the rest of us won't. And it's not that we insist that the idea is insane. It isn't. It's just that the idea is rather implausible, which is why we would like to see other evidence than aboriginal fairy tales.
Where are the videos? Are they really this difficult to make? Firefighters don't carry any equipment that can be used to document how fires start and spread?

Also: Consider what birds do with stale and hard bread when they are near water, which they usually are!
I live right next to a big park in Copenhagen with a lot of herons, and they are clever enough to pick up bread fed to the ducks. I haven't seen them catch any fish in this way, however, but I wouldn't rule it out. At least they are clever enough to ]follow this guy when he shows up in Frederiksberg Have:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Sideroxylon · 23rd January 2018, 10:37 AM

“Aboriginal fairy tales.” Bloody lovely.

macdoc · 23rd January 2018, 01:03 PM

Quote:

It's just that the idea is rather implausible, which is why we would like to see other evidence than aboriginal fairy tales.

Implausible to your set in concrete mindset ....nice bit of bigotry in addition.

One thing I can pretty much guarantee....no level of observation will satisfy you ......that = dogma.

MikeG · 23rd January 2018, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by macdoc

Implausible to your set in concrete mindset ....nice bit of bigotry in addition.

One thing I can pretty much guarantee....no level of observation will satisfy you ......that = dogma.

How about using the quote function properly so that we can see who you are responding to, and what the context of their comments was.

macdoc · 23rd January 2018, 04:22 PM

Implausible ??? How do you think young birds learn?? …..by watching and observing their parents….I had one of the most wonderful experiences as a twitcher watching two mature jays teach their offspring in our back garden

The two eldest watched intently and mimicked what the older birds did.

The little one begged but got ignored …..it went on for half hour ..the two elder fledglings were so intent and then went and did the same

I’ve seen robins teach their young as well.

How big a stretch do you think it is for a hungry bird to learn to carry a burning twig for a fresh feast ……geez.

Birds are big time problem solvers and can even figure out problems they’ve never seen before to get at food. Give the rest of the creatures you share the planet with some credit for intelligence....most have been around longer.

and the " I bet they were indigenous " snark ???? ....wrong as well

Quote:

We document Indigenous Ecological Knowledge and non-Indigenous observations of intentional fire-spreading by the fire-foraging raptors Black Kite (Milvus migrans), Whistling Kite (Haliastur sphenurus), and Brown Falcon (Falco berigora) in tropical Australian savannas. Observers report both solo and cooperative attempts, often successful, to spread wildfires intentionally via single-occasion or repeated transport of burning sticks in talons or beaks. This behavior, often represented in sacred ceremonies, is widely known to local people in the Northern Territory, where we carried out ethno-ornithological research from 2011 to 2017; it was also reported to us from Western Australia and Queensland. Though Aboriginal rangers and others who deal with bushfires take into account the risks posed by raptors that cause controlled burns to jump across firebreaks, official skepticism about the reality of avian fire-spreading hampers effective planning for landscape management and restoration. Via ethno-ornithological workshops and controlled field experiments with land managers, our collaborative research aims to situate fire-spreading as an important factor in fire management and fire ecology. In a broader sense, better understanding of avian fire-spreading, both in Australia and, potentially, elsewhere, can contribute to theories about the evolution of tropical savannas and the origins of human fire use.

http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.2993/0278-0771-37.4.700

William Parcher · 23rd January 2018, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by macdoc

Birds are big time problem solvers and can even figure out problems they’ve never seen before to get at food.

Shoot, they can probably put out a fire that is headed towards their nest. Why would someone just say no when they don't really know?

Quote:

and the " I bet they were indigenous " snark ???? ....wrong as well

Well we might presume that the paper authors aren't Aborigines and at least some of them claim to have seen it happen. But those firefighters... I betcha they are Aborigines.

EHocking · 23rd January 2018, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by MikeG

I had no idea whether I'm agreeing with you or not. I asked a straightforward non-loaded question. However, this response of yours does lead me into disagreement with you, because I don't accept aboriginal oral traditions are religious.

Ah well, whether you do or not,
Aboriginal people accept that their oral traditions about their Dreamtime is, in fact, their religion.
I don't think that you get to choose what a particular group of people call their religion or not.
You can not believe in it, but you can't declare that they cannot believe in it.

Quote:

It isn't a religious belief that birds set their own fires.........it is word-of-mouth received wisdom. To claim otherwise would be to accept that "red sky at night, shepherds' delight" is some sort of religious incantation.

Strawman.
I gave an example of this Dreaming (religious belief) upthread.

She said songs were sung and stories told in at least four different traditional languages (Kunwinjku/Kune, Dalabon, Rembarrnga and Wagilak) as well as in Kriol and English. “The older people were really driving it (the knowledge),” she said. “I was fascinated by stories of a firebird; people got very excited about it.”

lionking · 23rd January 2018, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by EHocking

Ah well, whether you do or not,
Aboriginal people accept that their oral traditions about their Dreamtime is, in fact, their religion.

What is this religion called?

I don't think you can take a bunch of oral tales and dances and call it a religion.

William Parcher · 23rd January 2018, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

What is this religion called?

I don't think you can take a bunch of oral tales and dances and call it a religion.

Here...

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Dreamtime (also dream time, dream-time) is a term devised by early anthropologists to refer to a religio-cultural worldview attributed to Australian Aboriginal beliefs...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime

EHocking · 23rd January 2018, 07:03 PM

Oral Traditions / Belief System / Religion

Are we really going to split hairs over this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austra...e</blockquote>

Indigenous Australians' oral tradition and spiritual values build on reverence for the land and on a belief in the Dreamtime. The Dreaming is considered to be both the ancient time of creation and the present-day reality of Dreaming. There are many different groups, each with their own individual culture, belief structure and language.

According to your criteria, apparently Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism are not religions either?

Ancient texts of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism were preserved and transmitted by an oral tradition.

16th January 2018, 01:28 AM	#81
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	Some locals were sceptical: Quote: Previously, some local experts had been sceptical of whether hawks were setting fires intentionally—or were merely doing so unintentionally. “If [hawks] have missed the prey and perhaps grabbed a stick... they will then drop that stick or rock,” wrote Anthony Molyneux of the Alice Springs Desert Park in 2011. “If the stick is smouldering or on fire, it will then start another fire.” Why these birds carry flames in their beaks (National Geographic, Jan. 8, 2018)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

16th January 2018, 01:39 AM	#82
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	Even that is a mountain of deduction based on a molehill of evidence.
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

16th January 2018, 02:15 AM	#83
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,421	Originally Posted by MikeG How can they know this? Aboriginals didn't write anything down, nor date their oral histories. It can be very dangerous to question aboriginal claims...... Now OT, but one so-called aborigine historian told me that as there was no oral history of aborigines coming to Australia, they must have evolved here. I'm serious. He wouldn't be swayed by the fact that there is no evidence of great apes ever existing in Australia. Personally I take all claims based on ancient aboriginal oral traditions with a huge grain of salt.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

16th January 2018, 04:26 AM	#84
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	Originally Posted by MikeG Even that is a mountain of deduction based on a molehill of evidence. What is a mountain of deduction? That a fire may start if a hawk picks up a smoldering stick and drops it again in dry grass???!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

16th January 2018, 04:32 AM	#85
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	Originally Posted by dann What is a mountain of deduction? That a fire may start if a hawk picks up a smoldering stick and drops it again in dry grass???! Everything from "if" onwards. No-one has produced any evidence that any bird has ever done this, let alone developed it as a feeding strategy.
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

16th January 2018, 05:34 AM	#86
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	It is merely a hypothesis, hence to two ifs: If a hawk has actually managed to set fire to something - they don't claim that it has - it might have been accidental rather than deliberate. My own hypotheses if ... was that it might have picked up a stick or a straw for the purpose of nest building/maintenance. A 'hunting accident' is just another hypothesis that doesn't require intentionality.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

18th January 2018, 02:15 PM	#87
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,163	Originally Posted by EHocking Your daughter's response did it for me. This is the confirmation bias I was talking about. The researchers are taking Dreamings literally. Let us just examine the firebird Dreaming for a second. (this from a workshop on the mythologies) Black Kite, Chicken Hawk (Kerrk – Malamalak, Num – Matngala). Milvus migrans. Often seen flying around near fires hunting for insects and small lizards escaping the fire. The name refers to its distinctive call “kerrk-kerrk-kerrk“. In the creation period or dreamtime, Kerrk stole fire sticks from the Dingo, so that he could cook the Ckeeky yam. Kerrk is still attracted to fires and occasionally he can be seen carrying burning sticks from an existing fire to start more fires further away. Are we really meant to take this literally? For starters - Dingoes now make fire? Black Kites cook and eat yams? These are Dreaming stories. As for accurate observations, let's just see how accurate they are. The workshop allowed for clarification of the rather confusing overlap of three bird names, karrkkanj, ngalmirlangmirlang and wunwunbu. Karrkkanj, it turns out, is a term for the Black Kite but can also be applied to two other raptor species, the Peregrine Falcon and the Brown Falcon. Really? They apparently confuse Black Kites with Peregrine and Brown Falcons? That's not very observant. I could tell the difference by the time I was 11. But of course, this is not about direct observations of a phenomenon, but "researchers" forcing fireside (hah!) stories to fit their confirmation bias. Here is the Dreamtime explanation for the apparent confusion between these species, "The Peregrine Falcon can also be known more specifically as ngalmirlangmirlang and the Brown Falcon as wunwunbu; these are said to be husband and wife." As a participant tells it, “Back in the Dreamtime, we believed animals were like us, the birds, all the reptiles were people like us.” Taking these stories literally would require us to believe that male Peregrine only breed with female Brown Falcons. If these were Bible stories, would we be having the same conversation in this thread? Next scientific paper coming up from this group of researchers... The Yowie Exists. (Photos and videos will be presented when available to show what the Aborigine People have always known about.)
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

18th January 2018, 04:05 PM	#88
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 16,202	Originally Posted by lionking It can be very dangerous to question aboriginal claims...... Now OT, but one so-called aborigine historian told me that as there was no oral history of aborigines coming to Australia, they must have evolved here. I'm serious. He wouldn't be swayed by the fact that there is no evidence of great apes ever existing in Australia. Personally I take all claims based on ancient aboriginal oral traditions with a huge grain of salt. Many of the aboriginal peoples are strongly opposed to having their genomes sequenced, for the sole reason that doing so challenges their belief that they originated in Australia during the Dreamtime, rather than originating in Africa like the rest of us.
	__________________ When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.

18th January 2018, 05:50 PM	#89
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,587	Originally Posted by luchog Many of the aboriginal peoples are strongly opposed to having their genomes sequenced, for the sole reason that doing so challenges their belief that they originated in Australia during the Dreamtime, rather than originating in Africa like the rest of us. Same applies to many Native American tribes. They claim to have originated in North America and disagree with the fact that their ancestors came across the Bering land bridge.
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

19th January 2018, 02:38 AM	#90
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,051	Originally Posted by smartcooky Same applies to many Native American tribes. They claim to have originated in North America and disagree with the fact that their ancestors came across the Bering land bridge. I wouldn't be so sure of that. They could have gone down and around. Given the same departure point, their genes would still be the same.
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,051

19th January 2018, 03:21 AM	#91
Cheetah Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,934	Down where? Around what?
	__________________ "... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB

19th January 2018, 11:05 AM	#92
This is The End Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 10,924	Originally Posted by MikeG Dropping a shellfish onto hard ground involves 1 prediction: "drop this here and it breaks". Picking up a burning stick to start a fire elsewhere involves 2 predictions: "drop this here and it will start a fire" and "if a fire starts, prey animals will be driven from cover". It appears that being favorable to one of the examples has made you leave out the exact same part of the second analogy from the first analogy. Quote: Dropping a shellfish onto hard ground involves 2 predictions: "drop this here and it breaks". and "if it breaks, the food will be expelled from the container" Picking up a burning stick to start a fire elsewhere involves 2 predictions: "drop this here and it will start a fire" and "if a fire starts, prey animals will be expelled from cover".
This is The End Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 10,924	__________________ ________________________

19th January 2018, 12:27 PM	#93
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	There's a big difference between picking up something that you want to eat, but can't crack, and picking up something that has nothing to do with what you want to eat, doesn't look or smell like anything you want to eat, and may even burn you.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

19th January 2018, 02:31 PM	#94
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	The important thing here is that "dropping a shellfish onto hard ground" doesn't necessarily involve any predictions at all, at first. It may happen accidentally: bird drops shellfish, oyster, walnut, whatever, on hard ground, picks it up again and notices that it has cracked and is 'pret a manger'. I don't know how many accidental droppings it will take for a bird brain to learn that this seems to work. However, picking up something as inedible, unpleasant and potentially damaging as a burning stick, dropping it because you don't want it near you, waiting for it to start a fire, waiting for the fire to scare away prey animals?! Whole different ball game!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

19th January 2018, 07:48 PM	#95
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	Originally Posted by dann There's a big difference between picking up something that you want to eat, but can't crack, and picking up something that has nothing to do with what you want to eat, doesn't look or smell like anything you want to eat, and may even burn you. I can (only just) see it perhaps happening by accident. Bird grabs prey in burnt out area behind fire front and accidentally picks up debris. Now I've bee an avid birder for the best part of 45 years. A lot of it in Australia and a lot of it in the bush. I have never seen any birds of prey accidentally pick up debris with their prey. So I don't know what is happening with these unverified anecdotes of birds picking up brands.
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	__________________ Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite

21st January 2018, 01:16 PM	#97
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	Originally Posted by EHocking ........I don't know what is happening with these unverified anecdotes of birds picking up brands. Confirmation bias. Observers in the field looking for evidence to support aboriginal stories, which they have some sort of incentive to support, see (or think they see) something which supports aboriginal stories.
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

21st January 2018, 01:57 PM	#98
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 93,917	Dann, you are simply arguing from incredulity. No need for long examples and explanations. We don't know from the anecdotal evidence we have so far, but claiming it isn't possible goes against scientific principles.

21st January 2018, 02:19 PM	#99
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 17,846	Now all you have to do is find somebody who claims that "it isn't possible"! Personally, I think it's improbable.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

22nd January 2018, 05:58 PM	#100
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not after these exchanges. Originally Posted by MikeG Originally Posted by EHocking ...Of course if you are an eye witness to behaviour that appears to support your religious beliefs or merely your knowledge of this belief, you might not pay that much attention to the details. Typical of confirmation bias. What is it about this supposed behaviour of birds which is a religious belief? So here ^^^ you question what this has to do with religious belief, and then next you state it is all to do with religious belief. Originally Posted by MikeG Originally Posted by EHocking ...So I don't know what is happening with these unverified anecdotes of birds picking up brands. Confirmation bias. Observers in the field looking for evidence to support aboriginal stories, which they have some sort of incentive to support, see (or think they see) something which supports aboriginal stories.
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	__________________ Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite

22nd January 2018, 08:15 PM	#101
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	So this is "accidental" I suppose http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2614 480/Master-fisherman-heron-catches-fish-using-bread-bait.html snip Quote: This green heron's fishing methods, while impressive, are not unusual. The bird is known to crouch in shallow water, waiting to surprise fish with its dagger-like beak. And if there's no bread handy, the heron will use insects, twigs or even its own feathers. Herons are the bait-fishing champions of the world, with seven of the 12 species of bird known to use bait to catch fish being herons. The outback is pretty sparse of game ...any bright kite could associate spreading fire with better results.... I don't think it's a stretch at all. Quote: Tool making in crows, and bait-fishing in birds Crows of Caledonia are known to prepare sticks and adjust their size, or bend metal hooks for hunting larvae in wood. Ravens are known to pool fishermen’s bait out of the water, and steal their fish. Crows all over the world are known to lift up pecan nuts and drop them on the road to crack and eat them. They are also known for using this technique to break clams on rocks. However, giving up bread in order to gain fish is unique, mostly because the crow gives up some resource it owns (food), not just expending energy. They understand action and consequence and predict future outcomes giving up one resource....bread ...for a better resource ..fish.. People simply are stuck in the "dumb animals" mind set Three different species.....get that locked down mindset opened up a bit. Quote: A new study based on numerous observations has identified three species of birds of prey that deliberately spread forest fires to force animals to flee the flames and therefore be able to hunt them more easily. http://electronicnewsnetwork.com/sci...unt-201032920/ I'm also a life longer twitcher and live in Australia part time ....I see nothing in the reports that would not make this a feasible observation of wild bird behavior. Just recall the shock of the black swan before you pronounce "no birds hunt with fire ". Quote: Dick Eussen thought he had the fire beat. It was stuck on one side of a highway deep in the Australian outback. But it didn’t look set to jump. And then, suddenly, without warning or obvious cause, it did. Eussen, a veteran firefighter in the Northern Territory, set off after the new flames. He found them, put them out, then looked up into the sky. What he saw sounds now like something out of a fairy tale or dark myth. A whistling kite, wings spread, held a burning twig in its talons. It flew about 20 metres ahead of Eussen and dropped the ember into the brittle grass. And the fire kicked off once again. All told that day, Eussen put out seven new flare-ups, according to a research paper published recently in the Journal of Ethnobiology. All of them, he claims, were caused by the birds and their burning sticks. Occam's razor sez was the birds wut done it....not drop bears. Quote: “MJ,” a Kimberley, (Western Australia) cattle station caretaker manager … saw kites working together to move a late dry season fire across a river by picking up, transporting, and dropping small, burning sticks in grass, which immediately ignited in several places,” they write. “The experience resulted in an uncontrollable blaze that destroyed part of the station’s infrastructure.” Quote: Bob White, a firefighter in the Northern Territory saw a small group of raptors, likely black kites, “pick up numerous smouldering sticks and transport them ahead of a fire front, successfully helping the blaze spread up a small valley.” Don't take Skeptik scout badge too seriously
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries} Last edited by macdoc; 22nd January 2018 at 10:14 PM.

22nd January 2018, 10:23 PM	#102
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	We have multiple observations across multiple species. We have a trained scientist with a published hypothesis for the observations We have parallel anticipatory behaviour by other birds. All I've heard in response is codswallop....oh bird brains can't do THAT, people living there for 40,000 years must be wrong, firefighters doing the observations must be mistaken ......yada yada
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries}

22nd January 2018, 11:23 PM	#103
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,421	Originally Posted by macdoc We have multiple observations across multiple species. We have a trained scientist with a published hypothesis for the observations We have parallel anticipatory behaviour by other birds. All I've heard in response is codswallop....oh bird brains can't do THAT, people living there for 40,000 years must be wrong, firefighters doing the observations must be mistaken ......yada yada Yeah, all we are waiting on is that pesky little thing called evidence. Not saying that people are mistaken. Also not a lot to ask for.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

23rd January 2018, 12:39 AM	#104
JJM 777 Suspended Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,060	Originally Posted by Yeggster Some experts now agree, with old tales aboriginal people have told for centuries Though no evidence exists, despite efforts to detect the said phenomenon. But tales, yes.
JJM 777 Suspended Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 4,060

23rd January 2018, 12:44 AM	#105
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	Originally Posted by EHocking I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not after these exchanges. So here ^^^ you question what this has to do with religious belief, and then next you state it is all to do with religious belief. I had no idea whether I'm agreeing with you or not. I asked a straightforward non-loaded question. However, this response of yours does lead me into disagreement with you, because I don't accept aboriginal oral traditions are religious. It isn't a religious belief that birds set their own fires.........it is word-of-mouth received wisdom. To claim otherwise would be to accept that "red sky at night, shepherds' delight" is some sort of religious incantation.
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. Last edited by MikeG; 23rd January 2018 at 12:46 AM.

23rd January 2018, 01:05 AM	#106
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 93,917	Originally Posted by lionking Yeah, all we are waiting on is that pesky little thing called evidence. Not saying that people are mistaken. Also not a lot to ask for. Just to be precise, there is evidence, but at this point it is only anecdotal and insufficient to support the conclusion. I do get annoyed when people don't consider anecdotal evidence at all just because some anecdotal evidence is unreliable.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 23rd January 2018 at 01:06 AM.

23rd January 2018, 01:27 AM	#107
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,421	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Just to be precise, there is evidence, but at this point it is only anecdotal and insufficient to support the conclusion. I do get annoyed when people don't consider anecdotal evidence at all just because some anecdotal evidence is unreliable. Sorry SG, "anecdotal" and "evidence" shouldn't be used in the same sentence.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

23rd January 2018, 07:56 AM	#109
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	Even video, unless like one of the heron videos that documents the behaviour end to end ....the naysayers will have an excuse...." it's accidental", they are warming their nest etc etc ad nauseum,
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries}

23rd January 2018, 08:07 AM	#110
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,163	I betcha those firefighters who say they saw it happen are Aborigines.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

23rd January 2018, 10:37 AM	#112
Sideroxylon Featherless biped Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Aporia Posts: 26,428	“Aboriginal fairy tales.” Bloody lovely.

23rd January 2018, 01:03 PM	#113
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	Quote: It's just that the idea is rather implausible, which is why we would like to see other evidence than aboriginal fairy tales. Implausible to your set in concrete mindset ....nice bit of bigotry in addition. One thing I can pretty much guarantee....no level of observation will satisfy you ......that = dogma.
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries}

23rd January 2018, 01:12 PM	#114
MikeG Now. Do it now. Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: UK Posts: 24,804	Originally Posted by macdoc Implausible to your set in concrete mindset ....nice bit of bigotry in addition. One thing I can pretty much guarantee....no level of observation will satisfy you ......that = dogma. How about using the quote function properly so that we can see who you are responding to, and what the context of their comments was.
	__________________ "The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

23rd January 2018, 04:22 PM	#115
macdoc Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Planet earth on slow boil Posts: 8,064	Implausible ??? How do you think young birds learn?? …..by watching and observing their parents….I had one of the most wonderful experiences as a twitcher watching two mature jays teach their offspring in our back garden The two eldest watched intently and mimicked what the older birds did. The little one begged but got ignored …..it went on for half hour ..the two elder fledglings were so intent and then went and did the same I’ve seen robins teach their young as well. How big a stretch do you think it is for a hungry bird to learn to carry a burning twig for a fresh feast ……geez. Birds are big time problem solvers and can even figure out problems they’ve never seen before to get at food. Give the rest of the creatures you share the planet with some credit for intelligence....most have been around longer. and the " I bet they were indigenous " snark ???? ....wrong as well Quote: We document Indigenous Ecological Knowledge and non-Indigenous observations of intentional fire-spreading by the fire-foraging raptors Black Kite (Milvus migrans), Whistling Kite (Haliastur sphenurus), and Brown Falcon (Falco berigora) in tropical Australian savannas. Observers report both solo and cooperative attempts, often successful, to spread wildfires intentionally via single-occasion or repeated transport of burning sticks in talons or beaks. This behavior, often represented in sacred ceremonies, is widely known to local people in the Northern Territory, where we carried out ethno-ornithological research from 2011 to 2017; it was also reported to us from Western Australia and Queensland. Though Aboriginal rangers and others who deal with bushfires take into account the risks posed by raptors that cause controlled burns to jump across firebreaks, official skepticism about the reality of avian fire-spreading hampers effective planning for landscape management and restoration. Via ethno-ornithological workshops and controlled field experiments with land managers, our collaborative research aims to situate fire-spreading as an important factor in fire management and fire ecology. In a broader sense, better understanding of avian fire-spreading, both in Australia and, potentially, elsewhere, can contribute to theories about the evolution of tropical savannas and the origins of human fire use. http://www.bioone.org/doi/10.2993/0278-0771-37.4.700
	__________________ _{Mainstream climate science sources • http://www.skepticalscience.com/empi...al-warming.htm • https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...cting-a-future} https://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...05/start-here/ _{Travelphotos >https://500px.com/macdoc/galleries}

23rd January 2018, 04:42 PM	#116
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,163	Originally Posted by macdoc Birds are big time problem solvers and can even figure out problems they’ve never seen before to get at food. Shoot, they can probably put out a fire that is headed towards their nest. Why would someone just say no when they don't really know? Quote: and the " I bet they were indigenous " snark ???? ....wrong as well Well we might presume that the paper authors aren't Aborigines and at least some of them claim to have seen it happen. But those firefighters... I betcha they are Aborigines.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

23rd January 2018, 05:46 PM	#117
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	Originally Posted by MikeG I had no idea whether I'm agreeing with you or not. I asked a straightforward non-loaded question. However, this response of yours does lead me into disagreement with you, because I don't accept aboriginal oral traditions are religious. Ah well, whether you do or not, Aboriginal people accept that their oral traditions about their Dreamtime is, in fact, their religion. I don't think that you get to choose what a particular group of people call their religion or not. You can not believe in it, but you can't declare that they cannot believe in it. Quote: It isn't a religious belief that birds set their own fires.........it is word-of-mouth received wisdom. To claim otherwise would be to accept that "red sky at night, shepherds' delight" is some sort of religious incantation. Strawman. I gave an example of this Dreaming (religious belief) upthread. She said songs were sung and stories told in at least four different traditional languages (Kunwinjku/Kune, Dalabon, Rembarrnga and Wagilak) as well as in Kriol and English. “The older people were really driving it (the knowledge),” she said. “I was fascinated by stories of a firebird; people got very excited about it.”
EHocking Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 8,592	__________________ Vote like you’re poor. A closed mouth gathers no feet" "Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke "It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite

23rd January 2018, 06:47 PM	#118
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,421	Originally Posted by EHocking Ah well, whether you do or not, Aboriginal people accept that their oral traditions about their Dreamtime is, in fact, their religion. What is this religion called? I don't think you can take a bunch of oral tales and dances and call it a religion.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill