Dear Users… (A thread for Sysadmin, Technical Support, and Help Desk people) Part 10 - Page 3

CORed · 21st July 2021, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Users are advised that any use of this technology will increase the amount of entropy in the system. While no liability is implied, this will eventually lead to the heat death of the universe.

Hey, don't think you can duck your liability so easily with that smarmy disclaimer. If your product causes the heat death of the universe, I will sue you for everything you've got.

Seems to be a flaw in that plan, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Filippo Lippi · 21st July 2021, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

Last night I had a nightmare that I had been woken up and made to go and test all of the connectivity to and from our application in a three hour window.

It's fine though, in actuality I have just under a month to invent a big team of people, train us all up in the application (millions of lines of code), the connection technologies, and then design efficient, thorough, but fast protocols to test it all.

And run two other projects being staffed by a very inexperienced team.

"It'll be fine," he says as he Googles for jobs elsewhere.

Actually, it won't be fine.

Thank ****, my concerns have been heard and have been raised at "the top." Whether it trickles down the other side and things change is another matter

Filippo Lippi · 21st July 2021, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I have this recurring dream that I'm back at my old operations job, having to follow a schedule, and I've mostly forgotten how and when to do everything. It's been over 30 years since I did that job, and it still has the power to stress me out!

One of our next tasks is to bring the QA batch into line with production so we can start running in a couple of weeks.

"Our" task, but, importantly, not "my" task

Filippo Lippi · 22nd July 2021, 09:31 AM

It is my task

gnome · 22nd July 2021, 10:03 AM

I hear that as one of those contradicting Morgan Freeman voice overs.

Wudang · 22nd July 2021, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

It is my task

As foretold by prophecy.

Filippo Lippi · 22nd July 2021, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

I hear that as one of those contradicting Morgan Freeman voice overs.

If anything my voice is richer, more velvety than Morgan's

arthwollipot · 28th July 2021, 08:35 PM

So I took a fun call this morning. The Chief Financial Officer of one of our smaller agencies submitted a request to get access to SAP Financials. We require a business case. His business case was:

Quote:

I am the Chief Financial officer for <agency> and I require full access to <agency>'s financial management information.

Our Definitive Media Library replied:

Quote:

Unfortunately, the business case provided in your SAR does not provide enough details for us to approve the installation of the software. Your business case needs to clearly explain what you will be using the software for and how it applies to departmental, programme, policy or project work outcomes. Please do not use acronyms in your business case. Please provide the license key details to allow DML to assign the key to you.
Regards
Definitive Media Library (DML)

He lost his ****. He threw a massive wobbly. He called me and chewed my ear off for five minutes, talking over me while I explained that yes, he will have to resubmit the request with a more detailed business case, and advised him of the established procedure for submitting feedback to our Service Delivery area. His rage was barely suppressed.

Now we've received the (strongly-worded) feedback, and all the agents are having a good laugh in the Teams chat.

ETA: This is his feedback:

Quote:

I find this disgraceful that my business case is being rejected. I indicated in my form that I am <agency>’s Chief Financial Officer and require full access to SAP financials for <agency>. This is inefficient, stupid and makes no sense. Why some nameless and contactless folk referred to as DML can make such a dumb decision for the CFO of an independent commonwealth entity is beyond me.

zooterkin · 29th July 2021, 01:07 AM

I can see his point of view.

Darat · 29th July 2021, 01:09 AM

Who actually makes this decision? Surely not the technical team?

arthwollipot · 29th July 2021, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Who actually makes this decision? Surely not the technical team?

It's the DML. And they do so according to a very strict set of rules. There is no-one that those rules do not apply to.

Procedure doesn't exist to inconvenience people. It exists to make the job of providing services to an 8,000 strong workforce easier and more streamlined.

Gord_in_Toronto · 29th July 2021, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

It's the DML. And they do so according to a very strict set of rules. There is no-one that those rules do not apply to.

Procedure doesn't exist to inconvenience people. It exists to make the job of providing services to an 8,000 strong workforce easier and more streamlined.

My response in this sort of situation, based on being on both sides of the fence on various occasions, is to accept that "Them's the Rules". You can rail against them and potentially do your career and mental health irreparable harm. Bur it is better to conform (or "play along", if you will) and get the results you want.

Whatever you do, don't take it out on the poor guy responding. He did not make the rules and you don't know who his friends are or what damage he can do if he is the vindictive sort.

malbui · 29th July 2021, 08:48 AM

Over the years on different consulting assignments I've taken great pleasure in refusing this kind of request. Show me a business case and exactly which data and functionality you need access to. "All the data" just doesn't cut it. In my experience, the more senior the role, the lesser the need to actually get their hands dirty.

At one company the access rights were such a disaster that the board decided to remove all application access rights over one weekend and wait for people to complain on the Monday morning, after which we'd reactivate rights based on our assessment of operational need. My analysis a month later showed that only about 25% of user accounts were brought back to life, which shows just how necessary the thousands of previous accounts actually had been.

arthwollipot · 29th July 2021, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

My response in this sort of situation, based on being on both sides of the fence on various occasions, is to accept that "Them's the Rules". You can rail against them and potentially do your career and mental health irreparable harm. Bur it is better to conform (or "play along", if you will) and get the results you want.

Whatever you do, don't take it out on the poor guy responding. He did not make the rules and you don't know who his friends are or what damage he can do if he is the vindictive sort.

Yes. 100%. Later that day, one of the other T2 agents took a call from someone who was being similarly unreasonable. It was that kind of day. She's pretty new, and she has some stress and anxiety issues, but she handled it very well.

BowlOfRed · 29th July 2021, 11:36 PM

Tell her to embellish the experience and write it up on NotAlwaysRight.

arthwollipot · 29th July 2021, 11:42 PM

"...and everybody applauded."

catsmate · 30th July 2021, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

"...and everybody applauded."

"So that's why I tracked down his desk and, on my next visit, sprinkled some zinc phosphide on his unattended latte".

Gord_in_Toronto · 30th July 2021, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

"So that's why I tracked down his desk and, on my next visit, sprinkled some zinc phosphide on his unattended latte".

Not hugely imaginative. And much too fast. An incident I remember from the days when Batch Processing was king was the story from a friend who knew the guy who maintained the payroll system for a large US city. The guy was hassled by a city cop and told him, "Your paycheck will never be right again". It never was and every two weeks the poor cop had to deal with the payroll department to get it corrected.

TragicMonkey · 2nd August 2021, 12:16 PM

Dear User: if you're going to ask me for the spreadsheet, please don't do so by replying to the email to which the spreadsheet in question was attached. It demeans us both.

JoeMorgue · 2nd August 2021, 12:35 PM

When people move desk (which the do way too often for no reason but that's neither her nor there) I move IT equipment. I do not move anything else.

Like I honestly do try to maintain a good working relationship with my users but I'm not "the help." I don't work for your company. My company has a contract with your company for me to perform very specific actions.

I'm not the janitor, I'm not the on call "there's a spider in the bathroom" guy, I'm not the electrician, I'm not the "Do things on my computer that are my job but I never bothered how to do" guy.

So do not make some backhanded appeal to "We're both on the same team" because we're honestly not.

TragicMonkey · 2nd August 2021, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

When people move desk (which the do way too often for no reason but that's neither her nor there) I move IT equipment. I do not move anything else.

Like I honestly do try to maintain a good working relationship with my users but I'm not "the help." I don't work for your company. My company has a contract with your company for me to perform very specific actions.

I'm not the janitor, I'm not the on call "there's a spider in the bathroom" guy, I'm not the electrician, I'm not the "Do things on my computer that are my job but I never bothered how to do" guy.

So do not make some backhanded appeal to "We're both on the same team" because we're honestly not.

What a terrible lack of teamgetherness and syngergisticism! Why, in those situations, the proper and professional thing to do is say "Twenty bucks." If they decline, mutter "I know what your car looks like" and slink off. They'll think twice about ad hoc requests from now on. And isn't that the goal of support? To get people to stop calling for it? Mission accomplished!

TragicMonkey · 2nd August 2021, 12:54 PM

I just told someone "Claudia handles those things" and now he won't bother me again. I don't know who Claudia is. I don't think there even is a Claudia here. But I performed helpful service so the requestor is satisfied, and I prevented myself from having to possibly do something, so I'm satisfied. Claudia, if and when she exists, may not be satisfied, but I can't be responsible for other people's happiness, even if they exist. That would be too big a burden.

Wudang · 2nd August 2021, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

What a terrible lack of teamgetherness and syngergisticism! Why, in those situations, the proper and professional thing to do is say "Twenty bucks." If they decline, mutter "I know what your car looks like" and slink off. They'll think twice about ad hoc requests from now on. And isn't that the goal of support? To get people to stop calling for it? Mission accomplished!

Very good point. Apparently some people want us to think of people at work as "customers" and what do customers do? ~~Complain~~ Pay!

arthwollipot · 2nd August 2021, 08:08 PM

We refer to "clients". I was told many years ago that some people objected to being called "users" (despite the TRON reference) so for a long time I avoided that term. I think people are less precious about it now.

TragicMonkey · 2nd August 2021, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

We refer to "clients". I was told many years ago that some people objected to being called "users" (despite the TRON reference) so for a long time I avoided that term. I think people are less precious about it now.

I think they're better off not knowing what I call them.

arthwollipot · 2nd August 2021, 11:11 PM

I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks!

I was expecting next year.

I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating.

Norman Alexander · 3rd August 2021, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks!

I was expecting next year.

I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating.

Hi from the SN salt mine!

arthwollipot · 3rd August 2021, 01:55 AM

Another day, another hell client who was suddenly a lot less hellish when I was speaking to them.

This may be my superpower.

Hellbound · 3rd August 2021, 05:41 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks!

I was expecting next year.

I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating.

This is the most common mistake I see.

SN can be a very powerful tool, and provide enormous efficiencies, but it takes careful planning and solid groundwork to be truly useful. I see a LOT of companies jumping to it without those plans and groundwork, then complaining about how awful it is (which is because of the poor implementation).

Most of the issues I see are, #1 by far, an inconsistent CMDB and a lack of policies/procedures to keep it accurate. Without that, SN isn’t much more useful than any ticketing system.

SN is NOT just a help desk ticket system. In a mature implementation, it’s a combination of asset management, configuration management, project management, business lifecycle management, change control, knowledge base, and several other components. It’s power lies in that combination, allowing each system to feed data to other systems, and leverage all functions to assist others.

When we went live at my last job it was the same kind of thing; our license got CA was coming due, so they decided to swap to SN for ticketing early. It took us 3 years to get to past that SNAFU and make SN truly useful. Most of that was cleaning the CMDB, streamlining and optimizing discovery, getting procedures in place for for manual CIs (non-discoverable assets), and data normalization. Once that was mostly done, the system started becoming enormously more useful.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Norman Alexander · 3rd August 2021, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Another day, another hell client who was suddenly a lot less hellish when I was speaking to them.

This may be my superpower.

That...and the bullhorn.

Norman Alexander · 3rd August 2021, 06:06 AM

Originally Posted by Hellbound

This is the most common mistake I see.

SN can be a very powerful tool, and provide enormous efficiencies, but it takes careful planning and solid groundwork to be truly useful. I see a LOT of companies jumping to it without those plans and groundwork, then complaining about how awful it is (which is because of the poor implementation).

Most of the issues I see are, #1 by far, an inconsistent CMDB and a lack of policies/procedures to keep it accurate. Without that, SN isn’t much more useful than any ticketing system.

SN is NOT just a help desk ticket system. In a mature implementation, it’s a combination of asset management, configuration management, project management, business lifecycle management, change control, knowledge base, and several other components. It’s power lies in that combination, allowing each system to feed data to other systems, and leverage all functions to assist others.

When we went live at my last job it was the same kind of thing; our license got CA was coming due, so they decided to swap to SN for ticketing early. It took us 3 years to get to past that SNAFU and make SN truly useful. Most of that was cleaning the CMDB, streamlining and optimizing discovery, getting procedures in place for for manual CIs (non-discoverable assets), and data normalization. Once that was mostly done, the system started becoming enormously more useful.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

++1000. Especially the CMDB, which is what I am working on right now.

Also, having the feature modules separately licensable means penny-pinching organisations leave out critical components, deeming them "not useful just yet". Gah!

TragicMonkey · 3rd August 2021, 06:18 AM

My company switched to Service Now a few years ago. The switch went okay, but the team responsible for supporting Service Now all quit within two weeks of going live. That seems to hint there was some drama behind the scenes.

And managers never bothered to learn how to do the things they're supposed to do so a lot of tickets languish "awaiting approval". The ones who did learn to click a button mostly do it without reading the tickets they're approving, so they scream at you later for doing work they approved but didn't want done. But that's not unique to SN.

catsmate · 3rd August 2021, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I just told someone "Claudia handles those things" and now he won't bother me again. I don't know who Claudia is. I don't think there even is a Claudia here. But I performed helpful service so the requestor is satisfied, and I prevented myself from having to possibly do something, so I'm satisfied. Claudia, if and when she exists, may not be satisfied, but I can't be responsible for other people's happiness, even if they exist. That would be too big a burden.

Personally I'd have avoided "Claudia". I prefer something a little more generic, like "Kathy" or "whats-her-name, her with the browny-blonde hair".

Originally Posted by Wudang

Very good point. Apparently some people want us to think of people at work as "customers" and what do customers do? ~~Complain~~ Pay!

They also get ignored a lot.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

We refer to "clients". I was told many years ago that some people objected to being called "users" (despite the TRON reference) so for a long time I avoided that term. I think people are less precious about it now.

Thick clients, fat clients or dumb clients?

catsmate · 3rd August 2021, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks!

I was expecting next year.

I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Hi from the SN salt mine!

Not personally familiar with SN, though I've been to several of their events. Good lunches and excellent swag.

Blue Mountain · 3rd August 2021, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks!

I was expecting next year.

I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating.

Count yourself lucky you're not moving to a new payroll system [wikipedia.org].

BowlOfRed · 3rd August 2021, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Another day, another hell client who was suddenly a lot less hellish when I was speaking to them.

This may be my superpower.

I hate it, but I've determined my superpower is that I exude something that causes unwarranted belief that things are going okay. I can put up with it when it's something that I actually know and work with. But when it's outside my field, I feel dirty.

I do Unix work, some python stuff, used to do a ton of storage. I can probably create a table in a SQL database and do a lookup, but I am *not* a DBA. A client of ours had a few of our staff on contract. One of the other jobs was having some argument with client and it was escalating. I "solved" some DB problem for them by walking over and asking a couple of questions. The clients went from screaming at the others to looking fairly pleased. But since I had no idea what was happening, I was stressed out. Unfortunately for me, the other folks at our company told me that they like being able to use me as a totem and drag me around to calm down folks.

Another power of mine is "Consultant hands", but I think most IT staff have that as well. That was what we called it when the helpdesk folks do the exact same thing the customer does, but it works. All due to consultant hands.

theprestige · 3rd August 2021, 02:13 PM

A conversation I had today:

THEM: Can you show me how to change my default browser.

ME: End users, right? Sure!

THEM: I'm IT, but I'm not *that much* in IT!

ME: How?

Norman Alexander · 3rd August 2021, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by BowlOfRed

Another power of mine is "Consultant hands", but I think most IT staff have that as well. That was what we called it when the helpdesk folks do the exact same thing the customer does, but it works. All due to consultant hands.

Been in that game for 20 years. You don't even need Consultant Hands, you just need to be nearby. I learned that if you sit beside them and ask them to repeat the actions that "went wrong" but to do it slowly so you can "take notes", it will work then as well. Who hasn't heard the phrase "Well, it didn't work last time I tried it!" (Inevitably PIBKAC

)

rdaneel · 3rd August 2021, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

A conversation I had today:

THEM: Can you show me how to change my default browser.

ME: End users, right? Sure!

THEM: I'm IT, but I'm not *that much* in IT!

ME: How?

I've put this up before, but your post sounds a lot like this clip, especially because the woman in this clip is the supposed to be the head of the IT department.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

arthwollipot · 3rd August 2021, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

A conversation I had today:

THEM: Can you show me how to change my default browser.

ME: End users, right? Sure!

THEM: I'm IT, but I'm not *that much* in IT!

ME: How?

Especially since if you open your non-default browser, a little message generally pops up saying "This is not your default browser. Would you like to make it your default browser?"

21st July 2021, 10:29 AM	#82
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4,377	Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi Last night I had a nightmare that I had been woken up and made to go and test all of the connectivity to and from our application in a three hour window. It's fine though, in actuality I have just under a month to invent a big team of people, train us all up in the application (millions of lines of code), the connection technologies, and then design efficient, thorough, but fast protocols to test it all. And run two other projects being staffed by a very inexperienced team. "It'll be fine," he says as he Googles for jobs elsewhere. Actually, it won't be fine. Thank ****, my concerns have been heard and have been raised at "the top." Whether it trickles down the other side and things change is another matter
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

21st July 2021, 10:30 AM	#83
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4,377	Originally Posted by alfaniner I have this recurring dream that I'm back at my old operations job, having to follow a schedule, and I've mostly forgotten how and when to do everything. It's been over 30 years since I did that job, and it still has the power to stress me out! One of our next tasks is to bring the QA batch into line with production so we can start running in a couple of weeks. "Our" task, but, importantly, not "my" task
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

22nd July 2021, 09:31 AM	#84
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4,377	It is my task
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

22nd July 2021, 10:03 AM	#85
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,764	I hear that as one of those contradicting Morgan Freeman voice overs.
	__________________

22nd July 2021, 10:57 AM	#86
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,452	Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi It is my task As foretold by prophecy.
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

21st July 2021, 07:23 AM	#81
CORed Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central City, Colorado, USA Posts: 10,564	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Users are advised that any use of this technology will increase the amount of entropy in the system. While no liability is implied, this will eventually lead to the heat death of the universe. Hey, don't think you can duck your liability so easily with that smarmy disclaimer. If your product causes the heat death of the universe, I will sue you for everything you've got. Seems to be a flaw in that plan, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

22nd July 2021, 11:25 AM	#87
Filippo Lippi Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4,377	Originally Posted by gnome I hear that as one of those contradicting Morgan Freeman voice overs. If anything my voice is richer, more velvety than Morgan's
	__________________ You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis

28th July 2021, 08:35 PM	#88
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	So I took a fun call this morning. The Chief Financial Officer of one of our smaller agencies submitted a request to get access to SAP Financials. We require a business case. His business case was: Quote: I am the Chief Financial officer for <agency> and I require full access to <agency>'s financial management information. Our Definitive Media Library replied: Quote: Unfortunately, the business case provided in your SAR does not provide enough details for us to approve the installation of the software. Your business case needs to clearly explain what you will be using the software for and how it applies to departmental, programme, policy or project work outcomes. Please do not use acronyms in your business case. Please provide the license key details to allow DML to assign the key to you. Regards Definitive Media Library (DML) He lost his ****. He threw a massive wobbly. He called me and chewed my ear off for five minutes, talking over me while I explained that yes, he will have to resubmit the request with a more detailed business case, and advised him of the established procedure for submitting feedback to our Service Delivery area. His rage was barely suppressed. Now we've received the (strongly-worded) feedback, and all the agents are having a good laugh in the Teams chat. ETA: This is his feedback: Quote: I find this disgraceful that my business case is being rejected. I indicated in my form that I am <agency>’s Chief Financial Officer and require full access to SAP financials for <agency>. This is inefficient, stupid and makes no sense. Why some nameless and contactless folk referred to as DML can make such a dumb decision for the CFO of an independent commonwealth entity is beyond me.
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224 Last edited by arthwollipot; 28th July 2021 at 08:39 PM.

29th July 2021, 01:07 AM	#89
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 55,834	I can see his point of view.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

29th July 2021, 01:09 AM	#90
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 109,607	Who actually makes this decision? Surely not the technical team?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

29th July 2021, 01:30 AM	#91
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	Originally Posted by Darat Who actually makes this decision? Surely not the technical team? It's the DML. And they do so according to a very strict set of rules. There is no-one that those rules do not apply to. Procedure doesn't exist to inconvenience people. It exists to make the job of providing services to an 8,000 strong workforce easier and more streamlined.
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224

29th July 2021, 06:29 AM	#92
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,697	Originally Posted by arthwollipot It's the DML. And they do so according to a very strict set of rules. There is no-one that those rules do not apply to. Procedure doesn't exist to inconvenience people. It exists to make the job of providing services to an 8,000 strong workforce easier and more streamlined. My response in this sort of situation, based on being on both sides of the fence on various occasions, is to accept that "Them's the Rules". You can rail against them and potentially do your career and mental health irreparable harm. Bur it is better to conform (or "play along", if you will) and get the results you want. Whatever you do, don't take it out on the poor guy responding. He did not make the rules and you don't know who his friends are or what damage he can do if he is the vindictive sort.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

29th July 2021, 08:48 AM	#93
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,492	Over the years on different consulting assignments I've taken great pleasure in refusing this kind of request. Show me a business case and exactly which data and functionality you need access to. "All the data" just doesn't cut it. In my experience, the more senior the role, the lesser the need to actually get their hands dirty. At one company the access rights were such a disaster that the board decided to remove all application access rights over one weekend and wait for people to complain on the Monday morning, after which we'd reactivate rights based on our assessment of operational need. My analysis a month later showed that only about 25% of user accounts were brought back to life, which shows just how necessary the thousands of previous accounts actually had been.
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,492	__________________ "But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

29th July 2021, 07:38 PM	#94
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto My response in this sort of situation, based on being on both sides of the fence on various occasions, is to accept that "Them's the Rules". You can rail against them and potentially do your career and mental health irreparable harm. Bur it is better to conform (or "play along", if you will) and get the results you want. Whatever you do, don't take it out on the poor guy responding. He did not make the rules and you don't know who his friends are or what damage he can do if he is the vindictive sort. Yes. 100%. Later that day, one of the other T2 agents took a call from someone who was being similarly unreasonable. It was that kind of day. She's pretty new, and she has some stress and anxiety issues, but she handled it very well.
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224

29th July 2021, 11:36 PM	#95
BowlOfRed Master Poster Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Silicon Valley Posts: 2,341	Tell her to embellish the experience and write it up on NotAlwaysRight.

29th July 2021, 11:42 PM	#96
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	"...and everybody applauded."
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224

30th July 2021, 12:19 AM	#97
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,613	Originally Posted by arthwollipot "...and everybody applauded." "So that's why I tracked down his desk and, on my next visit, sprinkled some zinc phosphide on his unattended latte".
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

30th July 2021, 09:40 AM	#98
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 23,697	Originally Posted by catsmate "So that's why I tracked down his desk and, on my next visit, sprinkled some zinc phosphide on his unattended latte". Not hugely imaginative. And much too fast. An incident I remember from the days when Batch Processing was king was the story from a friend who knew the guy who maintained the payroll system for a large US city. The guy was hassled by a city cop and told him, "Your paycheck will never be right again". It never was and every two weeks the poor cop had to deal with the payroll department to get it corrected.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

2nd August 2021, 12:16 PM	#99
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	Dear User: if you're going to ask me for the spreadsheet, please don't do so by replying to the email to which the spreadsheet in question was attached. It demeans us both.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

2nd August 2021, 12:35 PM	#100
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,114	When people move desk (which the do way too often for no reason but that's neither her nor there) I move IT equipment. I do not move anything else. Like I honestly do try to maintain a good working relationship with my users but I'm not "the help." I don't work for your company. My company has a contract with your company for me to perform very specific actions. I'm not the janitor, I'm not the on call "there's a spider in the bathroom" guy, I'm not the electrician, I'm not the "Do things on my computer that are my job but I never bothered how to do" guy. So do not make some backhanded appeal to "We're both on the same team" because we're honestly not.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

2nd August 2021, 12:51 PM	#101
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue When people move desk (which the do way too often for no reason but that's neither her nor there) I move IT equipment. I do not move anything else. Like I honestly do try to maintain a good working relationship with my users but I'm not "the help." I don't work for your company. My company has a contract with your company for me to perform very specific actions. I'm not the janitor, I'm not the on call "there's a spider in the bathroom" guy, I'm not the electrician, I'm not the "Do things on my computer that are my job but I never bothered how to do" guy. So do not make some backhanded appeal to "We're both on the same team" because we're honestly not. What a terrible lack of teamgetherness and syngergisticism! Why, in those situations, the proper and professional thing to do is say "Twenty bucks." If they decline, mutter "I know what your car looks like" and slink off. They'll think twice about ad hoc requests from now on. And isn't that the goal of support? To get people to stop calling for it? Mission accomplished!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

2nd August 2021, 12:54 PM	#102
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	I just told someone "Claudia handles those things" and now he won't bother me again. I don't know who Claudia is. I don't think there even is a Claudia here. But I performed helpful service so the requestor is satisfied, and I prevented myself from having to possibly do something, so I'm satisfied. Claudia, if and when she exists, may not be satisfied, but I can't be responsible for other people's happiness, even if they exist. That would be too big a burden.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

2nd August 2021, 12:58 PM	#103
Wudang BOFH Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 15,452	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey What a terrible lack of teamgetherness and syngergisticism! Why, in those situations, the proper and professional thing to do is say "Twenty bucks." If they decline, mutter "I know what your car looks like" and slink off. They'll think twice about ad hoc requests from now on. And isn't that the goal of support? To get people to stop calling for it? Mission accomplished! Very good point. Apparently some people want us to think of people at work as "customers" and what do customers do? ~~Complain~~ Pay!
	__________________ "Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

2nd August 2021, 08:08 PM	#104
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	We refer to "clients". I was told many years ago that some people objected to being called "users" (despite the TRON reference) so for a long time I avoided that term. I think people are less precious about it now.
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224

2nd August 2021, 08:24 PM	#105
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	Originally Posted by arthwollipot We refer to "clients". I was told many years ago that some people objected to being called "users" (despite the TRON reference) so for a long time I avoided that term. I think people are less precious about it now. I think they're better off not knowing what I call them.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

2nd August 2021, 11:11 PM	#106
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks! I was expecting next year. I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating.
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224

3rd August 2021, 12:01 AM	#107
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,982	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks! I was expecting next year. I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating. Hi from the SN salt mine!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

3rd August 2021, 01:55 AM	#108
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	Another day, another hell client who was suddenly a lot less hellish when I was speaking to them. This may be my superpower.
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224

3rd August 2021, 05:41 AM	#109
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 15,112	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks! I was expecting next year. I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating. This is the most common mistake I see. SN can be a very powerful tool, and provide enormous efficiencies, but it takes careful planning and solid groundwork to be truly useful. I see a LOT of companies jumping to it without those plans and groundwork, then complaining about how awful it is (which is because of the poor implementation). Most of the issues I see are, #1 by far, an inconsistent CMDB and a lack of policies/procedures to keep it accurate. Without that, SN isn’t much more useful than any ticketing system. SN is NOT just a help desk ticket system. In a mature implementation, it’s a combination of asset management, configuration management, project management, business lifecycle management, change control, knowledge base, and several other components. It’s power lies in that combination, allowing each system to feed data to other systems, and leverage all functions to assist others. When we went live at my last job it was the same kind of thing; our license got CA was coming due, so they decided to swap to SN for ticketing early. It took us 3 years to get to past that SNAFU and make SN truly useful. Most of that was cleaning the CMDB, streamlining and optimizing discovery, getting procedures in place for for manual CIs (non-discoverable assets), and data normalization. Once that was mostly done, the system started becoming enormously more useful. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

3rd August 2021, 06:03 AM	#110
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,982	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Another day, another hell client who was suddenly a lot less hellish when I was speaking to them. This may be my superpower. That...and the bullhorn.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

3rd August 2021, 06:06 AM	#111
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,982	Originally Posted by Hellbound This is the most common mistake I see. SN can be a very powerful tool, and provide enormous efficiencies, but it takes careful planning and solid groundwork to be truly useful. I see a LOT of companies jumping to it without those plans and groundwork, then complaining about how awful it is (which is because of the poor implementation). Most of the issues I see are, #1 by far, an inconsistent CMDB and a lack of policies/procedures to keep it accurate. Without that, SN isn’t much more useful than any ticketing system. SN is NOT just a help desk ticket system. In a mature implementation, it’s a combination of asset management, configuration management, project management, business lifecycle management, change control, knowledge base, and several other components. It’s power lies in that combination, allowing each system to feed data to other systems, and leverage all functions to assist others. When we went live at my last job it was the same kind of thing; our license got CA was coming due, so they decided to swap to SN for ticketing early. It took us 3 years to get to past that SNAFU and make SN truly useful. Most of that was cleaning the CMDB, streamlining and optimizing discovery, getting procedures in place for for manual CIs (non-discoverable assets), and data normalization. Once that was mostly done, the system started becoming enormously more useful. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ++1000. Especially the CMDB, which is what I am working on right now. Also, having the feature modules separately licensable means penny-pinching organisations leave out critical components, deeming them "not useful just yet". Gah!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

3rd August 2021, 06:18 AM	#112
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	My company switched to Service Now a few years ago. The switch went okay, but the team responsible for supporting Service Now all quit within two weeks of going live. That seems to hint there was some drama behind the scenes. And managers never bothered to learn how to do the things they're supposed to do so a lot of tickets languish "awaiting approval". The ones who did learn to click a button mostly do it without reading the tickets they're approving, so they scream at you later for doing work they approved but didn't want done. But that's not unique to SN.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

3rd August 2021, 09:17 AM	#113
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,613	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I just told someone "Claudia handles those things" and now he won't bother me again. I don't know who Claudia is. I don't think there even is a Claudia here. But I performed helpful service so the requestor is satisfied, and I prevented myself from having to possibly do something, so I'm satisfied. Claudia, if and when she exists, may not be satisfied, but I can't be responsible for other people's happiness, even if they exist. That would be too big a burden. Personally I'd have avoided "Claudia". I prefer something a little more generic, like "Kathy" or "whats-her-name, her with the browny-blonde hair". Originally Posted by Wudang Very good point. Apparently some people want us to think of people at work as "customers" and what do customers do? ~~Complain~~ Pay! They also get ignored a lot. Originally Posted by arthwollipot We refer to "clients". I was told many years ago that some people objected to being called "users" (despite the TRON reference) so for a long time I avoided that term. I think people are less precious about it now. Thick clients, fat clients or dumb clients?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

3rd August 2021, 09:20 AM	#114
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,613	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks! I was expecting next year. I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating. Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Hi from the SN salt mine! Not personally familiar with SN, though I've been to several of their events. Good lunches and excellent swag.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

3rd August 2021, 11:30 AM	#115
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,339	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I just found out that we're shifting to the ServiceNow environment in 5 weeks. 5 weeks! I was expecting next year. I am also given to understand that it is not ready. Not five weeks away from being ready, at least. The TLs and management have been doing UAT and it appears to be frustrating. Count yourself lucky you're not moving to a new payroll system [wikipedia.org].
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)