Continuation The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

That must have been the other now missing Estonian.

You mean: the other Estonian who was mistakenly thought to have been rescued on the first chaotic day of the rescue operation, but who subsequently turned out to have died (via drowning, hypothermia, blunt force trauma or crush injuries) in or near the Estonia on the night it sank? That other Estonian?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I hope you now understand why it seems odd why Svensson said he flew eight and a deceased person straight to Huddinge Hospital

No.

Svensson did not say he did that. Because Svensson was not a pilot. He was one of 3 rescue men aboard Y74 and was injured. He didn't fly anyone anywhere.

And it was not odd in the least that Y74 flew back to base to change crew and refuel after dropping all the rescued and injured at the nearby hospital. They did not attempt to land on a ferry because their flight was not the mystery one you speculate about before all the others and so the original plan to attempt ferry landings had already been abandoned. They did not drop the rescued off at Utö either as that would not have hastened their return to the rescue; they had to change crew at Berga so they went there via the neighbouring Huddinge hospital.

There is nothing odd or confusing about any of that.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Marras

Do you really think that we will believe you when you invent sources out of thin air?

CTs are almost always riddled with these sorts of things: "so-and-so says they saw such-and-such evidence" or "so-and-so says they spoke with Mr X, who told them such-and-such".

And of course these pieces of purely anecdotal hearsay (and often double-hearsay) *conveniently* cannot be backed up with any reliable evidence whatsoever. Strange, that......

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

If 'fuel was running low', it made sense to go to Utö. Unless of course, if it was an earlier flight before the refuelling units were installed in place.

No. That would actually have been slower when they also had to change crew at Berga.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The On Scene Commander ordered that any helicopters with defective winches should return to base. He also ordered that survivors and the dead be brought to the ships (if they could land a helicopter - and only the Finnish ones could as they had trained for this) or transferred to the special base set up at Utö for them, staffed with a team of doctors and nurses.

A helicopter with a broken winch is not in any immediate danger. It could still drop off the survivors at Utö, as ordered, refuel and then return to base, as ordered.

Instead, whilst obeying the order to return the helicopter with a defective winch to base Y74 seems to have directly disobeyed the order by flying the survivors direct to Huddinge. Claiming low fuel and a defective winch is a pathetic excuse and a likely story by the JAIC.

JAIC 7.5.5

Why would any member of the Defence Forces get the highest medal in the land after having wilfully disobeyed a command from the person in official command of them, the On Scene Commander of all people?

You are confused.

Y74 did not return with a defective winch. Y64, Y65 and Y69 had winch failures.

Y74 did not try to land on a ferry as the OSC's original plan to do that had already been abandoned as too dangerous in the conditions.

Nor did it fly to Utö as that was chosen as the best place to drop off in Sweden if the helicopter was immediately returning to the search area. It was not. It was going to pick up fresh crew. Going to Utö would have wasted time.

You accuse them of a "pathetic excuse and a likely story" based on your woefully poor grasp of the facts.

Plus of course Svensson was not the pilot so did not control where Y64 or Y74 flew and so could not have been disobeying OSC's instructions in that regard.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson...

Citation required.

[Stamuel]

Originally Posted by Vixen

An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.

If Svensson rescued Piht, where did Piht end up? You have claimed that the secretly rescued crew were brought to Huddinge, but the people who claim they saw Piht on TV claim they saw him at Turku.

[MarkCorrigan]

Christopher Bollyn is "a likely pseudonym"?

Ok it's a windup people. She isn't serious, she's just stringing us along.

[SpitfireIX]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Did you not understand my response? I said I have been following this case since 1994 as I knew this vessel as Viking Sally and had travel on her. So we have some guy who calls himself 'Christopher Bollyn', a likely pseudonym, and probably a Russian Pro-Iran disinformation agent, who pops up in 2012 pulling bits out of the Estonia scandal into an article, not saying anything not already in the public domain and you have the audacity to claim he must be my guru.

From the Anti-Defamation League:

Anti-Semite Christopher Bollyn Scheduled to Attend 9-11 Events in California
September 11, 2014

Christopher Bollyn, an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist who focuses on the 9-11 attacks, reportedly will be making several appearances at 9-11 events in California. Bollyn was one of the earliest promoters of anti-Semitic 9-11 theories blaming Israel and Jews for the attacks. . . .

Bollyn has focused most of his research on 9-11 and has continued to make the claim that the terrorist attacks were orchestrated by Israel and the Jews. In Bollyn’s 2012 book, Solving 9-11: The Deception that Changed the World, he writes, “The ‘false flag’ terrorism of 9-11 is a monstrous Jewish-Zionist crime of our time. The true culprits of this heinous crime are clearly being protected by a gang of like-minded Jewish Zionists in the highest positions of the U.S. government….”

Bollyn has also written numerous other articles on his website that accuse Jews of controlling the media and government. Bollyn has attended Holocaust denial conferences in the U.S. and one in Russia in 2002. . . .

In 2007, Bollyn was found guilty of misdemeanor aggravated assault and resisting arrest, after a confrontation with police officers in front of his home in the Chicago area. He never appeared for sentencing and has since is presumed to be living in Europe with his wife, a Swedish citizen, and children.

Additionally, Bollyn and his wife both acted in Baltic Storm (source), and according to your favored source, Estonia Ferry Disaster, he participated in a symposium along with Björkman [ETA: and Rabe,] and several other Estonia conspiracy theorists.

So the fact is you just pulled the assertion that Bollyn is "probably a . . . disinformation agent" out of an orifice, without even bothering to do any research. You undoubtedly did this because you desperately wish it to be true, in order to avoid even further discrediting your already shredded claims about the Estonia.

Direct question, Vixen: How is it that everything else Björkman and Bollyn say is extremely outrageous, ridiculous, and offensive, but what they say about the Estonia is completely reasonable and totally not a conspiracy theory?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Stamuel

If Svensson rescued Piht, where did Piht end up? You have claimed that the secretly rescued crew were brought to Huddinge, but the people who claim they saw Piht on TV claim they saw him at Turku.

That's a remarkable point.

I had not registered, if it was ever mentioned, where this piece claimed to have been shown on German TV was shot. If it was recorded in Turku, and if it was actually Piht, then the Finns had him, and not the Swedes.

Now my assumption is the most likely explanation is mistaken identity of the person shown on TV news, but otherwise it contradicts rather than supports claims that a Swedish helicopter saved him. So far as I know, Swedish helicopters only delivered their rescues to Sweden. None to ferries and none to Finland. And it makes an imagined plot by Sweden to disappear him an awful lot more complicated than it already was.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Stamuel

If Svensson rescued Piht, where did Piht end up? You have claimed that the secretly rescued crew were brought to Huddinge, but the people who claim they saw Piht on TV claim they saw him at Turku.

Contradictory information from Vixen? Say it aint so!

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Since I had never read 'Bollyn' it must have been from elsewhere.

If that particularly daft pseudo-legal claim is reproduced in a number of places, you can surely point us at where you heard it. It wasn't Wilson, contrary to your first attempt at deflection. You say it's not Bollyn. So where?

Quote:

Where does one gets information about the world from?

I get my information about the law from lawyers and law professors. Where do you get yours? You say you "looked up" the legal theory regarding the Egyptian deportees. You tell us a court found that Sweden had violated the 1998 Rome Statute as regards enforced disappearance. Tell us where you looked it up.

As usual you're dodging the question. And that usually means that your critics are onto you. And in this case that means your source probably is Bollyn but you had hoped no one would find out that your noble crusade to vindicate the survivors of MS Estonia is being fed by obvious crackpots.

I'm quite willing to believe that Bollyn is not your source for the claim. But I require evidence. Since what you claim and what he has published seem to be exactly the same thing, I can really draw no other conclusion until you tell us exactly what other (verifiable) source you "looked up" that told you what you're now claiming.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You are the liar. Faking indignation.

He's reporting verifiable fact. You claimed you never spoke ill of Svensson. But you did, and you have been presented with examples of it. Your inability to address, excuse, or deny those examples is all the proof we need.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Drew Wilson's book came out in 2006, for a start, and I dare say the newspapers covered the story at the time.

You dare say? Or you know as much? You said Wilson's mention of the topic in a note in his book led you to research it on your own and stumble across the enforced-disappearance accusation. So can you tell us what newspapers you think proffered the claim that a court had found Sweden in violation of the Rome Statute on enforced disappearances? It's your claim and your burden of proof, and you tell us you previously did your research. So you shouldn't have any problem providing your source.

The thing is, the theory has no legal validity whatsoever, and no factual support you have managed to uncover. It's the kind of thing a lay person would make up and hope nobody consulted a lawyer about it or delved too deeply into the facts. As such, it has a particular smell. So when you and exactly one other person manage to stumble upon the same blatantly wrong theory, it's pretty hard to believe that you both independently came up with it. It's too uniquely stupid to be a common thing.

But as I've said, I'm entirely willing to believe you didn't crib your Egyptian deportee theory from a known crackpot. Just tell us where else you "looked it up," and let us verify it.

[Reformed Offlian]

For the record, Vixen's lying about never having seen or used Bollyn's work before.

She cited Bollyn, after much prodding from me and others about her sources, in post #2966 of the very first thread of this topic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2966

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

I'm quite willing to believe that Bollyn is not [Vixen's] source for the claim. But I require evidence.

Oh, look. There's the evidence.

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

For the record, Vixen's lying about never having seen or used Bollyn's work before.

She cited Bollyn, after much prodding from me and others about her sources, in post #2966 of the very first thread of this topic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2966

Vixen lied. Her source, according to her, is Bollyn.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

For the record, Vixen's lying about never having seen Bollyn's article before.

She cited it, after much prodding from me and others about her sources, in post #2966 of the very first thread of this topic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2966

Ooooh! It's almost like Vixen's statements are not trustworthy.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Steve

Ooooh! It's almost like Vixen's statements are not trustworthy.

I was shocked, too.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

That's a remarkable point.

I had not registered, if it was ever mentioned, where this piece claimed to have been shown on German TV was shot. If it was recorded in Turku, and if it was actually Piht, then the Finns had him, and not the Swedes.

Now my assumption is the most likely explanation is mistaken identity of the person shown on TV news, but otherwise it contradicts rather than supports claims that a Swedish helicopter saved him. So far as I know, Swedish helicopters only delivered their rescues to Sweden. None to ferries and none to Finland. And it makes an imagined plot by Sweden to disappear him an awful lot more complicated than it already was.

In Conspiracyland, it just means that Finland was in on it as well.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

For the record, Vixen's lying about never having seen or used Bollyn's work before.

She cited Bollyn, after much prodding from me and others about her sources, in post #2966 of the very first thread of this topic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2966

Well well well, would you look at that?

So Vixen, why are you feigning ignorance of Christopher Bollyn, and claiming he is obviously a disinformation agent using a pseudonym when you have outright admitted to using him as your source previously?

Also, are you going to provide the evidence I asked for yet? It's getting awfully tedious to keep asking, and the longer you ignore it the more dishonest you look, shocking that it is that you could look more dishonest.

[Steve]

There is a popular quote, not sure by who, along the lines of "If you always tell the truth you will never have to keep your story straight". There is someone in this thread who would do well to take those words to heart.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

For the record, Vixen's lying about never having seen or used Bollyn's work before.

She cited Bollyn, after much prodding from me and others about her sources, in post #2966 of the very first thread of this topic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2966

That’s quite astonishing. If Vixen had just posted the link we’d never have known where she got it!

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Mojo

That’s quite astonishing. If Vixen had just posted the link we’d never have known where she got it!

You mean the stuff from Bjorkman? Indeed. She was already on record having cited Bjorkman, so you'd think she wouldn't have a problem doing it again. Unless she were ashamed of her sources or something.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

You mean the stuff from Bjorkman? Indeed. She was already on record having cited Bjorkman, so you'd think she wouldn't have a problem doing it again. Unless she were ashamed of her sources or something.

She was quite happy with the wild speculations and CT's of her source(s) until she realized that everyone else already knew what total whackos they are. Then the distancing dance, with the requisite lies, became necessary.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

You mean the stuff from Bjorkman?

No, she seems to have got it from Bollyn.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

For the record, Vixen's lying ...

(Respectfully removed redundant words)

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.

What a non-sensical inference, even assuming the rest of the story is true.

I know that Beethoven was born in Bonn, Germany. Does that mean I must have spoken to him?

Or is it some kind of Estonian cultural thing to keep one's birthplace secret, like "true names"? Do birthplaces have magical powers in Estonian folklore or something?

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

What a non-sensical inference, even assuming the rest of the story is true.

No need to assume, the story is not true.

But I can guarantee to you that a Swedish rescue man will not know the birthplaces of captains of random ships sailing across the Baltic Sea.

So, if the story was true, it would be evidence of recent contact between the two men.

But it is not true, because Vixen is lying once again.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Where to start?

Why do you think the on scene commander has any jurisdiction over military assets?

Why do you think it would be a good idea to make the helicopter fly in the opposite direction to it's base, drop off survivors then attempt to refuel to then return to it's own base rather than save a lot of time getting it fixed and back in to the rescue?

Why do you think the rescue man has any say in where the helicopter goes?

Why do you think a someone who was no longer on the helicopter would have any say in where it went?

Helicopter Y 65 also flew direct to it's base and dropped off a survivor as it passed Stockholm.

Wait a minute. The MRCC has authoritative powers. The MRCC Turku designated Silja Europa Captain the On Scene Commander. Whilst the helicopters from Berga might have been Swedish Defence Forces helicopters, that would not give them the right to do their own thing. Captain Mäkela had absolute authority. A restriction was put in place as to how many aircraft could be in that particular region, for example. The whole idea was to coordinate rescue.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Marras

Could you please elaborate a little here:

Who was the person who got the medal after disobeying a command from the person in official command of them?

And what was the command?

From JAIC:

Quote:

7.1 Summary of the operation

The ESTONIA sank in international waters in Finland's Search and Rescue Region (SRR), in its Archipelago Sea maritime SRR under the responsibility of the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (MRCC) in Turku. Consequently Finland was responsible for the overall co-ordination of the Search and Rescue (SAR) operation.

7.1


<snip>

Quote:

As well as in the SAR Convention, the tasks of an MRCC are laid down in the IMO Search and Rescue Manual and in national provisions. Some of their main tasks are summarised below:

An MRCC prepares detailed plans for conduct of SAR operations in its own area. Each MRCC and MRSC maintains up-to-date information relevant to SAR operations in its area.

An MRCC should be in a constant state of operational readiness.

When an MRCC receives a distress signal, it must establish the facts of the situation, so as to determine the state of emergency and decide on the extent of the operation required.

The MRCC initiates and co-ordinates the operation through the available rescue units in accordance with a plan of action.

The MRCC notifies the owner of the vessel and the appropriate authorities of the operations being launched. Other MRCC’s and MRSC’s and rescue units which may be concerned must also be notified and kept informed of developments.

When the emergency no longer exists, or further search seems useless, the MRCC terminates the operation and notifies the authorities and individuals who had previously been informed.

The sphere of authority of the MRCC in each country is established by national provisions.

ibid

<snip>

Quote:

At 0205 hrs MRCC Turku appointed the master On-Scene Commander (OSC). The SILJA EUROPA arrived at the scene at 0230 hrs.

<snip>

Quote:

Planning of action

At 0325 hrs the deputy commander of the rescue operation determined as the principle for the use of the helicopters that they would retrieve people from the sea and from the rafts and take them to the nearest passenger ferries. This was intended to optimise use of the helicopters and minimize transfer flights.

<snip>

When it became clear that not all the rescued survivors could be carried to the vessels, MRCC Turku gave instructions to bring them to Utö as necessary The reasons were that the flight time would be shorter and the risk of hypothermia less. Utö thus became the most important assembly point for survivors, of whom the helicopters brought 24 to the fortress for transfer to hospital care. The fortress personnel, guided by nurses, attended to the survivors' treatment. The medical team arrived at Utö at about 0650 hrs.

The use of Utö as an assembly point became more difficult by 0630 hrs when the supply of helicopter fuel ran out. Helicopters were advised to fly to Nauvo, Turku or Hanko for refuelling. MRCC Turku ordered hospitals to prepare to receive patients, and ground transport was organised from the refuelling sites to the hospitals. Helicopters arriving in Turku for refuelling landed first at the Turku University Central Hospital landing site to leave the survivors before proceeding to the base for refuelling.

7.5.4

So you see, instructions were explicit.

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Wait a minute. The MRCC has authoritative powers. The MRCC Turku designated Silja Europa Captain the On Scene Commander. Whilst the helicopters from Berga might have been Swedish Defence Forces helicopters, that would not give them the right to do their own thing. Captain Mäkela had absolute authority. A restriction was put in place as to how many aircraft could be in that particular region, for example. The whole idea was to coordinate rescue.

Does he? Please provide a citation showing the authority the OSC has.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

This really needs a citation or link, but it might be a bit more credible if it was a named Estonian radio station, rather than just one that goes to a different school.

Radio Kuku, 28.9.1994.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Which other 'now missing Estonian'?

There are many hundreds of missing people.

That was tongue in cheek. However, as you have seen from the OSC commands, above, no Swedish helicopter had the right to just take survivors straight to Huddinge, Stockholm, contrary to the orders.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Radio Kuku, 28.9.1994.

How do you know?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Why would the on scene commander object to a damaged helicopter dropping off survivors at a hospital on it's direct route for repair and refuel?

There were problems with fuel availability throughout the day, any way to avoid using the restricted supplies at Utö, Nauvo, Turku and Hanko would have been welcomed.

Wouldn't he want it repaired, re-crewed, fueled and back in to the rescue as soon as possible?

What does she think the duties and responsibilities of the on scene commander were?

What authority over Swedish military helicopter does she think the captain of a Finnish ferry would actually have?

There is such a thing as jurisdiction.

Anyway, by your own account there was no urgency at MRCC Stockholm as you think it quite normal for a rescue helicopter to get there two hours later.

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

From JAIC:

Lots of non-answer snipped.

My first question was:

Who was the person who got the medal after disobeying a command from the person in official command of them?

Please answer this.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Wait a minute. The MRCC has authoritative powers. The MRCC Turku designated Silja Europa Captain the On Scene Commander. Whilst the helicopters from Berga might have been Swedish Defence Forces helicopters, that would not give them the right to do their own thing. Captain Mäkela had absolute authority. A restriction was put in place as to how many aircraft could be in that particular region, for example. The whole idea was to coordinate rescue.

As already belaboured, there was no reason to think any of the helicopters defied OSC instructions as everything they did makes sense. If you have any evidence the OSC instructed them to make pointless trips and they refused then by all means present it.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Obviously the on scene commander is in on the conspiracy too.

The now retired OSC Esa Mäkela is sceptical of the JAIC conclusion. Likewise, the Captain of Mariella in his interview when asked how many his ship rescued stated 'about 40' (so much for the JAIC figure of 15 (or was it 17). This is why Finland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world, because people state what they really think and there is nothing you can do about it.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

I did. Which is why I know you did not answer my question. The question was: where did you get the idea that the case with the Egyptians was an incident of enforced disappearance?



blah blah blah

You said lots of things. Where you got your notions that the case involving the two Egyptians involved enforce disappearance was not one of them.

You've not given your audience any reason to believe you arrived at that conclusion on your own by a cogent independent thought process, so the obvious surmise is that you simply borrowed the conclusion from a source. I want to know what that source was, if not Bollyn.

Here is a Finnish newspaper for a start: MV Lehti

Quote:

Airport documents obtained by him reveal that at the same time as the disappearances, a private plane owned by the CIA, owned by Lars Magnusson , took to the air, destined for Washington.

According to eyewitnesses, in addition to the crew, nine unidentified people had boarded the plane. Similar incidents have been linked to the alleged CIA abduction of two Egyptian men suspected of terrorism in the early 2000s.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

You are confused.

Y74 did not return with a defective winch. Y64, Y65 and Y69 had winch failures.

Y74 did not try to land on a ferry as the OSC's original plan to do that had already been abandoned as too dangerous in the conditions.

Nor did it fly to Utö as that was chosen as the best place to drop off in Sweden if the helicopter was immediately returning to the search area. It was not. It was going to pick up fresh crew. Going to Utö would have wasted time.

You accuse them of a "pathetic excuse and a likely story" based on your woefully poor grasp of the facts.

Plus of course Svensson was not the pilot so did not control where Y64 or Y74 flew and so could not have been disobeying OSC's instructions in that regard.

That is not how SAR or military operations work. Each person does not do his or her own thing nor decide that following instructions 'wastes time' so 'I've decided off my own bat to do something other than what was instructed'.