Continuation The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Here is a Finnish newspaper for a start: MV Lehti

For those who don't know. MV Lehti is not a real newspaper. It's a far right publication by Ilja Janitskin that became Putin's mouthpiece in Finland.

Citing it is far less reliable than citing New York Post.

[Jack by the hedge]

Is it your claim, Vixen, that the OSC ordered all Swedish helicopters to take survivors to Utö and would not let them do otherwise even if they were not returning directly to the search area and the diversion to Utö would actually waste precious time?

Is that your claim?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Stamuel

If Svensson rescued Piht, where did Piht end up? You have claimed that the secretly rescued crew were brought to Huddinge, but the people who claim they saw Piht on TV claim they saw him at Turku.

He was supposedly seen in an ambulance with the Huddinge code on it (supplied by a Russian tv company, so not sure how authentic that is) and also was seen getting out of an ambulance at Turku hospital. Lots of people saw this and recognised Piht. He was described as being the fourth person getting out. When researchers searched the news archives, it was found the picture suddenly now cut off just as the fourth person was getting out.

Jutta Rabe tried to get hold of the Radio KuKu interview but was told the Estonian security forces had already seized it, likewise the ZDF newsreel and as broadcast by Der Speigel, had also been seized by the German security forces.

If true, and there is no reason to believe all of these independent witnesses did not see or hear what they say they did see and hear, then it does suggest a decision to remove the key Estonians from the survivors lists and to remove all news traces likewise.

In addition, Y64 or rather, Svensson's, rescues trimmed down to one.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

That is not how SAR or military operations work. Each person does not do his or her own thing nor decide that following instructions 'wastes time' so 'I've decided off my own bat to do something other than what was instructed'.

And of course you have evidence that they did not ask permission or declare their intentions. No, of course you don't. You just have the same info we do; that a drop off point was set up at Utö so that helicopters could return to the search as soon as possible. You obstinately refuse to consider why this was done and presume it was some inflexible edict with no consideration for what would assist the rescue effort. That's idiotic.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Marras

For those who don'y know. MV Lehti is not a real newspaper. It's a far right publication by Ilja Janitskin that became Putin's mouthpiece in Finland.



Citing it is far less reliable than citing New York Post.

Thanks. I was wondering who the Lars Magnusson is who appears to own the CIA. I shall stop wondering. I do still wonder who the unnamed "he" is at the start of the quote, who claims to have all this "evidence".

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

He was supposedly seen in an ambulance with the Huddinge code on it (supplied by a Russian tv company, so not sure how authentic that is) and also was seen getting out of an ambulance at Turku hospital.

You do realize that Huddinge is not in Turku, don't you?

Quote:

In addition, Y64 or rather, Svensson's, rescues trimmed down to one.

You again pretend to believe that Svenssons was in Y64 for the whole time. You know very well that Svensson wasn't in Y64 when he did most of his credited rescues.

Remember the Swedish helicopter logs that you posted some days ago? Have you forgotten them already?

Remember how I asked you what one part of the operations report of Y74 meant? Remember how you never answered the question. How about you look at those papers again and tell us what they say about Y74's operations?

I tell you what they say: they say that Svensson rescued people while on Y74.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

He was supposedly seen in an ambulance with the Huddinge code on it (supplied by a Russian tv company, so not sure how authentic that is) and also was seen getting out of an ambulance at Turku hospital. Lots of people saw this and recognised Piht. He was described as being the fourth person getting out. When researchers searched the news archives, it was found the picture suddenly now cut off just as the fourth person was getting out.



Jutta Rabe tried to get hold of the Radio KuKu interview but was told the Estonian security forces had already seized it, likewise the ZDF newsreel and as broadcast by Der Speigel, had also been seized by the German security forces.



If true, and there is no reason to believe all of these independent witnesses did not see or hear what they say they did see and hear, then it does suggest a decision to remove the key Estonians from the survivors lists and to remove all news traces likewise.



In addition, Y64 or rather, Svensson's, rescues trimmed down to one.

Do you begin to wonder if Kremlin mouthpieces might be providing misinformation?

The stuff you quoted way back when did not say the German authorities had seized the news footage. It says the archivist said they had already come looking for it. It is left to your spy-movie imagination to dream up their seizing every copy.

[Here_to_learn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

This is why Finland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world, because people state what they really think and there is nothing you can do about it.

I wonder what other countries would rank the same on the Transparency International Corruption Perception Index.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

...

In addition, Y64 or rather, Svensson's, rescues trimmed down to one.

Why do you persist in lying about how many rescues Svensson is credited with? It's bizarre.

[Here_to_learn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

he MRCC has authoritative powers.

No. Show where in the IAMSAR/SOLAS/COLREG instructions this is stated.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Captain Mäkela had absolute authority.

Absolutely not. Show where in the IAMSAR/SOLAS/COLREG instructions this is stated.

Originally Posted by Vixen

The whole idea was to coordinate rescue.

Yes, now you got it. The OSC role has even be renamed since, and it's now On Scene Coordinator to ensure that the naming matches the actual responsibility.

Originally Posted by Vixen

However, as you have seen from the OSC commands, above, no Swedish helicopter had the right to just take survivors straight to Huddinge, Stockholm, contrary to the orders.

Again - show from the transcripts/logs/reports where the helicopter was told not to return to Berga/Huddinge, and where the non-corrupt non-gay Finns criticized the helicopter captain for still making the decision .

Originally Posted by Vixen

That is not how SAR or military operations work. Each person does not do his or her own thing nor decide that following instructions 'wastes time' so 'I've decided off my own bat to do something other than what was instructed'.

How man SAR operations have you participated in?

I have participated in many, including being part of the OSC in both exercisers and real SAR situations. The captains of each vessel retain full command of their own vessels, as well as full responsibility. As OSC I cannot order them to do anything that is outside of their own parameters for operating their vessel.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

From the Anti-Defamation League:

Anti-Semite Christopher Bollyn Scheduled to Attend 9-11 Events in California
September 11, 2014

Christopher Bollyn, an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist who focuses on the 9-11 attacks, reportedly will be making several appearances at 9-11 events in California. Bollyn was one of the earliest promoters of anti-Semitic 9-11 theories blaming Israel and Jews for the attacks. . . .

Bollyn has focused most of his research on 9-11 and has continued to make the claim that the terrorist attacks were orchestrated by Israel and the Jews. In Bollyn’s 2012 book, Solving 9-11: The Deception that Changed the World, he writes, “The ‘false flag’ terrorism of 9-11 is a monstrous Jewish-Zionist crime of our time. The true culprits of this heinous crime are clearly being protected by a gang of like-minded Jewish Zionists in the highest positions of the U.S. government….”

Bollyn has also written numerous other articles on his website that accuse Jews of controlling the media and government. Bollyn has attended Holocaust denial conferences in the U.S. and one in Russia in 2002. . . .

In 2007, Bollyn was found guilty of misdemeanor aggravated assault and resisting arrest, after a confrontation with police officers in front of his home in the Chicago area. He never appeared for sentencing and has since is presumed to be living in Europe with his wife, a Swedish citizen, and children.

Additionally, Bollyn and his wife both acted in Baltic Storm (source), and according to your favored source, Estonia Ferry Disaster, he participated in a symposium along with Björkman [ETA: and Rabe,] and several other Estonia conspiracy theorists.

So the fact is you just pulled the assertion that Bollyn is "probably a . . . disinformation agent" out of an orifice, without even bothering to do any research. You undoubtedly did this because you desperately wish it to be true, in order to avoid even further discrediting your already shredded claims about the Estonia.

Direct question, Vixen: How is it that everything else Björkman and Bollyn say is extremely outrageous, ridiculous, and offensive, but what they say about the Estonia is completely reasonable and totally not a conspiracy theory?

Heh, has anyone ever seen Bollyn and Bjorkman in the same room together...?


So some American eccentric who claims to believe 9/11 was a Zionist plot has anything to do with the Estonia disaster is an important figure in your eyes?

As I said, I do not agree with either Bollyn or Bjorkman. For example, Bjorkman says he agrees with AB Silve Linde. I do not.

As for 9/11 I believe it was some kind of a Saudi Arabian plot on the face of it, so not sure how that fits your conspiracy theory about blaming Israel.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

That's a remarkable point.

I had not registered, if it was ever mentioned, where this piece claimed to have been shown on German TV was shot. If it was recorded in Turku, and if it was actually Piht, then the Finns had him, and not the Swedes.

Now my assumption is the most likely explanation is mistaken identity of the person shown on TV news, but otherwise it contradicts rather than supports claims that a Swedish helicopter saved him. So far as I know, Swedish helicopters only delivered their rescues to Sweden. None to ferries and none to Finland. And it makes an imagined plot by Sweden to disappear him an awful lot more complicated than it already was.

Your assumption is incorrect. Swedish helicopters dropped off their survivors at Utö. AFAIAA only one helicopter carrying nine and apparently one carrying one, went direct to Huddinge.

One guy named Altti, who lives in Stockholm, says he was in one of those helicopters, although not put on the list. He says the helicopter stopped in an airfield and all kinds of weird things went on.

Helsingin Sanomat 1.10.1994 reported Danish and Swedish newspapers saying Piht had gone missing from a Helsinki hospital. That makes sense, as he may have travelled with Bildt, Aho and Laar (the Prime Ministers of Sweden, Finland and Estonia) when they flew to Turku to interview Sillaste (and probably Piht, too) and Piht then flew to Helsinki, on the same plane as them, where the JAIC was set up.

Quote:

There are several versions of the fate of Estonia's second captain, sea captain Avo Pihti. Last Friday, Swedish and Danish newspapers reported that Piht had disappeared from a hospital in Helsinki. The newspapers referred to information provided by the Helsinki police.

HS

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

If that particularly daft pseudo-legal claim is reproduced in a number of places, you can surely point us at where you heard it. It wasn't Wilson, contrary to your first attempt at deflection. You say it's not Bollyn. So where?



I get my information about the law from lawyers and law professors. Where do you get yours? You say you "looked up" the legal theory regarding the Egyptian deportees. You tell us a court found that Sweden had violated the 1998 Rome Statute as regards enforced disappearance. Tell us where you looked it up.

As usual you're dodging the question. And that usually means that your critics are onto you. And in this case that means your source probably is Bollyn but you had hoped no one would find out that your noble crusade to vindicate the survivors of MS Estonia is being fed by obvious crackpots.

I'm quite willing to believe that Bollyn is not your source for the claim. But I require evidence. Since what you claim and what he has published seem to be exactly the same thing, I can really draw no other conclusion until you tell us exactly what other (verifiable) source you "looked up" that told you what you're now claiming.

Here you go then.

MV Lehti, as quoted earlier.

A generally read newspaper.

You ought to know that nobody has copyright on the news.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

When researchers searched the news archives, it was found the picture suddenly now cut off just as the fourth person was getting out.

Aside from the "I could have sworn it showed Piht getting out" bit, if the footage was located then it ought to be possible to confirm or refute the claim of an anomalous Huddinge hospital ambulance in Turku. Right? I mean if these unnamed researchers were serious about investigating the case.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

He's reporting verifiable fact. You claimed you never spoke ill of Svensson. But you did, and you have been presented with examples of it. Your inability to address, excuse, or deny those examples is all the proof we need.

What I actually said was that I was sure he deserved a medal but wasn't sure it should be for the highest medal in the land if it was for what was described in the JAIC report timed circa 0600 - 0930.

This is because of the reasons I stated.

To twist that into 'speaking ill of Svensson' shows a certain kind of dishonesty, likewise pretending to be outraged that I should ask, if the medal was for what the JAIC described, then how come none of his team also got medals, as the helicopter rescues were based on team work. It was just as hazardous for the helicopters being thrown around by the wind.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

For the record, Vixen's lying about never having seen or used Bollyn's work before.

She cited Bollyn, after much prodding from me and others about her sources, in post #2966 of the very first thread of this topic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2966

I didn't register the author nor did I know who he was.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Well well well, would you look at that?

So Vixen, why are you feigning ignorance of Christopher Bollyn, and claiming he is obviously a disinformation agent using a pseudonym when you have outright admitted to using him as your source previously?

Also, are you going to provide the evidence I asked for yet? It's getting awfully tedious to keep asking, and the longer you ignore it the more dishonest you look, shocking that it is that you could look more dishonest.

Who knows what the truth is about this person. Fact is I am not interested in the cult of personality. Full stop.

[junkshop]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

For the record, Vixen's lying about never having seen or used Bollyn's work before.

She cited Bollyn, after much prodding from me and others about her sources, in post #2966 of the very first thread of this topic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2966

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't register the author nor did I know who he was.

Maybe you should have vetted your source before using it? I can only imagine how embarrassing it would be to inadvertently cite an known conspiracy theorist and anti-semite in an attempt to bolster my arguments.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

You mean the stuff from Bjorkman? Indeed. She was already on record having cited Bjorkman, so you'd think she wouldn't have a problem doing it again. Unless she were ashamed of her sources or something.

I cite things from many eclectic sources. You had the link.

Imagine if I said all of your thoughts and opinions were controlled by Trump / Charles Manson / Bagwan / JK Rowling: you would be outraged or laughing at the obvious fallacy of it just because you both agree on one factual news item in the public domain.

Or maybe you are reliant on a particular dogma or person yourself so you just cannot comprehend it when you meet someone is not.

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Here you go then.

MV Lehti, as quoted earlier.

A generally read newspaper.

You ought to know that nobody has copyright on the news.

And another remainder that MV Lehti is a far right propaganda outlet of Putin, not a generally read newspaper.

Vixen, a few years ago I wrote that I don't think that you are a neo-fascist but that you do a good impression of being one.

This again such a moment: you are quoting neo-fascist sources. If you don't want to look like a neo-fascist, you probably shouldn't do that.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

What a non-sensical inference, even assuming the rest of the story is true.

I know that Beethoven was born in Bonn, Germany. Does that mean I must have spoken to him?

Or is it some kind of Estonian cultural thing to keep one's birthplace secret, like "true names"? Do birthplaces have magical powers in Estonian folklore or something?

Had you ever heard of Hiumaa before I mentioned it?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Since I had never read 'Bollyn' it must have been from elsewhere.

But you had read Bollyn.

Quote:

Where does one gets information about the world from?

That’s what people are asking you. You seem unable to provide a source other than Bollyn and MV Lehti.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Your assumption is incorrect. Swedish helicopters dropped off their survivors at Utö. AFAIAA only one helicopter carrying nine and apparently one carrying one, went direct to Huddinge.

Isn't that what I said? Swedish helicopters took survivors to Sweden. Not to Turku. What version of your abduction story has the Swedes transport Piht to Finland?

Quote:

Helsingin Sanomat 1.10.1994 reported Danish and Swedish newspapers saying Piht had gone missing from a Helsinki hospital. That makes sense, as he may have travelled with Bildt, Aho and Laar (the Prime Ministers of Sweden, Finland and Estonia) when they flew to Turku to interview Sillaste (and probably Piht, too) and Piht then flew to Helsinki, on the same plane as them, where the JAIC was set up.



HS

So now you have the three nations prime ministers in on it as they travel to Finland with Piht, where he's allegedly filmed by TV news, and then Piht is transferred to the Finnish capital and then is disappeared. You seem to be making a case against the famously honest Finns now, and throwing the Estonians in for good measure.

How exactly does this tie in to your conspiracy theory of his being spirited away by Sweden after a secret early helicopter rescue from a posh lifeboat?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Does he? Please provide a citation showing the authority the OSC has.

Once again:

Quote:

7.1 Summary of the operation

The ESTONIA sank in international waters in Finland's Search and Rescue Region (SRR), in its Archipelago Sea maritime SRR under the responsibility of the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centre (MRCC) in Turku. Consequently Finland was responsible for the overall co-ordination of the Search and Rescue (SAR) operation.

<snip

7.5.4 At 0205 hrs MRCC Turku appointed the master On-Scene Commander (OSC). The SILJA EUROPA arrived at the scene at 0230 hrs.

ibid

On-scene commander (OSC)
MARINE
The commander of a rescue unit designated to co-ordinate search and rescue operations within a specified area.

Captain Esa Mäkela of Silja Europa was appointed On Scene Commander by Commander Montonen, MRCC Turku chief coast guard and he had absolute power to make instructions as to the rescue coordination.

Here to Learn gave a good account of what an OSC does, if you want to learn more.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Marras

Lots of non-answer snipped.

My first question was:

Who was the person who got the medal after disobeying a command from the person in official command of them?

Please answer this.

Whoever took nine survivors direct to Huddinge, instead of dropping them off at Utö. These helicopters had a whole team of people but it seems this is what Svensson told Aftonbladet he did. According to witnesses he was heard telling an interviewer live on Radio Kuku he had rescued Piht.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

As already belaboured, there was no reason to think any of the helicopters defied OSC instructions as everything they did makes sense. If you have any evidence the OSC instructed them to make pointless trips and they refused then by all means present it.

Why is it pointless?

[Jack by the hedge]

"Absolute power". Hilariously nonsensical description.

And you have exactly no evidence any helicopter crew did anything without OSC's approval.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Why is it pointless?

Because it would have taken longer to get back to the rescue area and it would have taken longer to get the survivors to a proper hospital. Are you actually absorbing the stuff other people write here?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Is it your claim, Vixen, that the OSC ordered all Swedish helicopters to take survivors to Utö and would not let them do otherwise even if they were not returning directly to the search area and the diversion to Utö would actually waste precious time?

Is that your claim?

No, it is your claim that in order 'not to waste time bothering to go to Utö to refuel and drop off the survivors as instructed by the OSC, it was decided to go straight to Huddinge instead'.

The JAIC dresses this up as 'because fuel was low'.

It was an instruction that helicopters with faulty winches had to return to base but not that survivors or the dead had to be taken there.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Whoever took nine survivors direct to Huddinge, instead of dropping them off at Utö. These helicopters had a whole team of people but it seems this is what Svensson told Aftonbladet he did. According to witnesses he was heard telling an interviewer live on Radio Kuku he had rescued Piht.

Weasel words. Svensson was not the pilot. Flying Y64 or Y74 was not what "he did".

Your claim of what Radio Kuku claim to have broadcast appears to be morphing into something "witnesses" (listeners?) claim it broadcast. Which is it?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Because it would have taken longer to get back to the rescue area and it would have taken longer to get the survivors to a proper hospital. Are you actually absorbing the stuff other people write here?

What? Did you not look at the map I gave you? Stockholm was >200km away, Utö less than 38km.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Marras

And another remainder that MV Lehti is a far right propaganda outlet of Putin, not a generally read newspaper.

Vixen, a few years ago I wrote that I don't think that you are a neo-fascist but that you do a good impression of being one.

This again such a moment: you are quoting neo-fascist sources. If you don't want to look like a neo-fascist, you probably shouldn't do that.

Is it? I didn't know that.


I am pretty left wing, actually.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

But you had read Bollyn.




That’s what people are asking you. You seem unable to provide a source other than Bollyn and MV Lehti.

Helsingin Sanomat?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't register the author nor did I know who he was.

Then how do you know you didn’t get the idea of the disappearances from him? You don’t seem to know where it came from, which suggests that you didn’t register its author.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Helsingin Sanomat?

Link?

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

What? Did you not look at the map I gave you? Stockholm was >200km away, Utö less than 38km.

There is no hospital at Utö.

At the time there was a coastal artillery fortress there and the sick house of such a fortress is no real hospital.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Marras

There is no hospital at Utö.

At the time there was a coastal artillery fortress there and the sick house of such a fortress is no real hospital.

There was a medical base set up for the dead and the survivors, who were then transferred to Turku Hospital.

There is a free of charge public ferry that will take you all the way to Utö from Parainen. It is quite local to Turku, actually.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

Then how do you know you didn’t get the idea of the disappearances from him? You don’t seem to know where it came from, which suggests that you didn’t register its author.

Er, the story of Piht's disappearance has been running since 1994. Did you not see the James Meek or the Colin Adamson citations from British newspapers of the day?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

What? Did you not look at the map I gave you? Stockholm was >200km away, Utö less than 38km.

Is pretending not to understand a simple logistical puzzle another of your "jokes"?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

There was a medical base set up for the dead and the survivors, who were then transferred to Turku Hospital.



There is a free of charge public ferry that will take you all the way to Utö from Parainen. It is quite local to Turku, actually.

Is the ferry faster than a helicopter to Huddinge?