Continuation The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Er, the story of Piht's disappearance has been running since 1994. Did you not see the James Meek or the Colin Adamson citations from British newspapers of the day?

We were talking about the alleged disappearance of the two Egyptians, remember? You were trying to use it as evidence that Sweden disappears people.

Do you have any source for your claim that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians beyond Bollyn and MV Lehti? If you are going to claim that Helsingin Sanomat reported it, please provide a link or a proper citation.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Here is a Finnish newspaper for a start: MV Lehti

An opinion piece from the pen of a reader
...which in turn cites Christopher Bollyn as a source. Are you even trying?

[Reformed Offlian]

Ladies and gentlemen, remember, the MV Lehti article isn't even a second source. The author cites Bollyn among his sources (they're listed at the bottom). Vixen is just identifying other people who also used his stuff.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

An opinion piece from the pen of a reader
...which in turn cites Christopher Bollyn as a source. Are you even trying?

The web of lies has become so convoluted that Vixen no longer has any hope of coherence. All we are seeing now is desperate, feeble attempts try to appear rational and relevant.

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Is the ferry faster than a helicopter to Huddinge?

Nowadays the ferry+car combination from Utö to Turku takes ~6.5 hours, and the ferry goes once a day. I don't know about the timetables in 1994.

I have absolutely no idea if the organized separate ships to go fetch the Estonia survivors.

[whoanellie]

From Wikipedia

Quote:

MV-media, also known as MV??!!, formerly Mitä Vittua? ("What the ****?") and MV-lehti is a Finnish alternative media site based in Spain and from 2018 Finland. It was founded by Ilja Janitskin in 2014.

MV-lehti has been accused of racism and spreading fake news and hate speech.[1][2] Due to this, Janitskin was suspected of several crimes, including incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, libel and copyright infringement, and was taken into custody by the Andorran police in August 2017.[3] He was later extradited to Finland, and in October 2018, Janitskin was convicted of 16 offences and given a 22-month prison sentence. According to the court, Janitskin was the chief editor and owner of MV-lehti, and as such he was responsible for its content. Among the convictions were defamation of the journalist Jessikka Aro and two other women. Janitskin was likely to be spared from any more prison time, however, as he had been in custody and in home arrest for almost a year, and as a first-timer he would have been released after completing half of his sentence.[4][5]

In January 2018, Janitskin left MV-media. The new owner, Juha Korhonen, said he would turn the website into a "cleaner" version.[6]

Janitskin died of cancer in February 2020 at the age of 42. He had been appealing his convictions.[7]

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Wait a minute. The MRCC has authoritative powers. The MRCC Turku designated Silja Europa Captain the On Scene Commander. Whilst the helicopters from Berga might have been Swedish Defence Forces helicopters, that would not give them the right to do their own thing. Captain Mäkela had absolute authority. A restriction was put in place as to how many aircraft could be in that particular region, for example. The whole idea was to coordinate rescue.

Yes the rescue was coordinated but the on scene commander had no authoritative powers over the Swedish Navy helicopters.
They were cooperating with the 'civil power'. He could not order them to do anything.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

From JAIC:

7.1


<snip>


ibid

<snip>



<snip>

7.5.4

So you see, instructions were explicit.

That didn't answer the question.
Who got a medal for disobeying a command?

A rescue man does not control the helicopter, the pilot does.
A Swedish navy pilot will be taking orders from his own squadron commander.

Where is your evidence anyone got a medal for disobeying a command?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Radio Kuku, 28.9.1994.

So show us the transcript or recording of the broadcast.

[whoanellie]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Here is a Finnish newspaper for a start: MV Lehti

That article provides a summary of many of your arguments - interference with radio communications, explosives, disappearing crew. Whether MV lehti and Bollyn are sources of your opinions it is very interesting to learn the sort of people who share your opinion.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

That was tongue in cheek. However, as you have seen from the OSC commands, above, no Swedish helicopter had the right to just take survivors straight to Huddinge, Stockholm, contrary to the orders.

All Swedish helicopters were taking survivors back to Swede.

Why would a request from a pilot to drop survivors at a hospital closer to it's base not be given the OK if it would speed up the repair and return to service of a helicopter?

Do you think the pilot would have done it without the OK from his commander?

What is your evidence that the squadron commander didn't instruct the helicopter to shorten it's journey by changing a flight plan?


Why would the on scene commander not agree if it would return a helicopter back to service more quickly?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

There is such a thing as jurisdiction.

Anyway, by your own account there was no urgency at MRCC Stockholm as you think it quite normal for a rescue helicopter to get there two hours later.

Sweden has jurisdiction over it's military helicopters.

I don't understand the second part.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

As already belaboured, there was no reason to think any of the helicopters defied OSC instructions as everything they did makes sense. If you have any evidence the OSC instructed them to make pointless trips and they refused then by all means present it.

Even if they refused the OSC has no power to force a Swedish military helicopter to do anything.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The now retired OSC Esa Mäkela is sceptical of the JAIC conclusion. Likewise, the Captain of Mariella in his interview when asked how many his ship rescued stated 'about 40' (so much for the JAIC figure of 15 (or was it 17). This is why Finland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world, because people state what they really think and there is nothing you can do about it.

What does that have to do with the question asked?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

That is not how SAR or military operations work. Each person does not do his or her own thing nor decide that following instructions 'wastes time' so 'I've decided off my own bat to do something other than what was instructed'.

Don't try to tell me how military operations work, I have plenty of first hand experience.
Good military planning allows for changing circumstances and gives flexibility to commanders to react as situations change.

Pilots are in communication with their commanders. They will not have just decided to 'do their own thing'
When the winch failed they will have requested a diversion to a hospital closer to their base as they were returning to repair the winch and change the crews.

Their commander will have agreed as it makes sense and will reduce the down time of the helicopter.

That is how military operations work.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Who knows what the truth is about this person. Fact is I am not interested in the cult of personality. Full stop.

You keep using that word phrase. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Vixen what is a cult of personality?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Marras

For those who don't know. MV Lehti is not a real newspaper. It's a far right publication by Ilja Janitskin that became Putin's mouthpiece in Finland.

Citing it is far less reliable than citing New York Post.

MV-media, also known as MV??!!, formerly Mitä Vittua? ("What the ****?") and MV-lehti is a Finnish alternative media site based in Spain.

MV-lehti has been accused of racism and spreading fake news and hate speech. Due to this, Janitskin was suspected of several crimes, including incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, libel and copyright infringement, and was taken into custody by the Andorran police in August 2017.He was later extradited to Finland, and in October 2018, Janitskin was convicted of 16 offences and given a 22-month prison sentence

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

He was supposedly seen in an ambulance with the Huddinge code on it (supplied by a Russian tv company, so not sure how authentic that is) and also was seen getting out of an ambulance at Turku hospital. Lots of people saw this and recognised Piht. He was described as being the fourth person getting out. When researchers searched the news archives, it was found the picture suddenly now cut off just as the fourth person was getting out.

Jutta Rabe tried to get hold of the Radio KuKu interview but was told the Estonian security forces had already seized it, likewise the ZDF newsreel and as broadcast by Der Speigel, had also been seized by the German security forces.

If true, and there is no reason to believe all of these independent witnesses did not see or hear what they say they did see and hear, then it does suggest a decision to remove the key Estonians from the survivors lists and to remove all news traces likewise.

In addition, Y64 or rather, Svensson's, rescues trimmed down to one.

How convenient that there isn't any evidence for the claims, it has all mysteriously disappeared, even the claimed German reports were seized by German security forces.

How far does this conspiracy run? Why wasn't the seizing of news footage by the 'security forces' reported in Germany, it would be a big scandal if they were acting on behalf of a foreign government to sensor German news organisations.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

MV-media, also known as MV??!!, formerly Mitä Vittua? ("What the ****?") and MV-lehti is a Finnish alternative media site based in Spain.

MV-lehti has been accused of racism and spreading fake news and hate speech. Due to this, Janitskin was suspected of several crimes, including incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, libel and copyright infringement, and was taken into custody by the Andorran police in August 2017.He was later extradited to Finland, and in October 2018, Janitskin was convicted of 16 offences and given a 22-month prison sentence

According to Vixen’s definition he was disappeared by the Andorran and Finnish governments.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Once again:

ibid

On-scene commander (OSC)
MARINE
The commander of a rescue unit designated to co-ordinate search and rescue operations within a specified area.

Captain Esa Mäkela of Silja Europa was appointed On Scene Commander by Commander Montonen, MRCC Turku chief coast guard and he had absolute power to make instructions as to the rescue coordination.

Here to Learn gave a good account of what an OSC does, if you want to learn more.

Coordinate. He has no authority to order any ship or aircraft to do anything.
It is all done through cooperation as laid down by the IMO through SOLAS.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Whoever took nine survivors direct to Huddinge, instead of dropping them off at Utö. These helicopters had a whole team of people but it seems this is what Svensson told Aftonbladet he did. According to witnesses he was heard telling an interviewer live on Radio Kuku he had rescued Piht.

So where is the recording of the things he told this radio station?

Where are these witnesses?

All you ever produce are second hand accounts that claim unknown witnesses heard him say things.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Why is it pointless?

Because it would add time to the flight when it was important to get the helicopters back in to action as quickly as possible and it would reduce congestion and fuel usage at the other sites.

It's how the military plan an operation.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Here you go then.

MV Lehti, as quoted earlier.

The author lists Bollyn as one of his sources.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No, it is your claim that in order 'not to waste time bothering to go to Utö to refuel and drop off the survivors as instructed by the OSC, it was decided to go straight to Huddinge instead'.

The JAIC dresses this up as 'because fuel was low'.

It was an instruction that helicopters with faulty winches had to return to base but not that survivors or the dead had to be taken there.

They weren't taken to the base, they were dropped at a hospital on the route to the base rather than making an unnecessary diversion that would have added time to the flight and used the dwindling fuel supplies at the site.

That's how the military works, they are flexible as the situation changes.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

What? Did you not look at the map I gave you? Stockholm was >200km away, Utö less than 38km.

But it was a longer diversion from the direct route back to the base for repairs and crew change.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Is it? I didn't know that.


I am pretty left wing, actually.

Quote:

MV-media, also known as MV??!!, formerly Mitä Vittua? ("What the ****?") and MV-lehti is a Finnish alternative media site based in Spain and from 2018 Finland. It was founded by Ilja Janitskin in 2014.

MV-lehti has been accused of racism and spreading fake news and hate speech. Due to this, Janitskin was suspected of several crimes, including incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, libel and copyright infringement, and was taken into custody by the Andorran police in August 2017.He was later extradited to Finland, and in October 2018, Janitskin was convicted of 16 offences and given a 22-month prison sentence. According to the court, Janitskin was the chief editor and owner of MV-lehti, and as such he was responsible for its content.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV-media

You should check your sources.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

The author lists Bollyn as one of his sources.

But that is ok with Vixen. Any source in a storm.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

Ladies and gentlemen, remember, the MV Lehti article isn't even a second source. The author cites Bollyn among his sources (they're listed at the bottom). Vixen is just identifying other people who also used his stuff.

Can I ask who labelled Bollyn an 'Anti-Semite'? Being pro-Palestinian doesn't make a person a foot-stomping nazi fascist anti-Semite? I have a friend who spent time in Palestine doing charity work. The idea that she is anti-Semitic because she passionately supports the Palestinian cause, is utterly laughable. Likewise, there are plenty of books on Amazon by Jewish intellectuals who are critical of the Israeli state. Come on people, you are better than slapping two-word labels on other people without any other further explanation.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

~ Evelyn Beatrice Hall in 1906

The Estonia disaster is a human disaster not a battle of ideology.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Marras

Nowadays the ferry+car combination from Utö to Turku takes ~6.5 hours, and the ferry goes once a day. I don't know about the timetables in 1994.

I have absolutely no idea if the organized separate ships to go fetch the Estonia survivors.

The point I was making was the idea that 'the Swedish helicopters had to fly directly to Huddinge because there were no other hospitals nearby' is utter nonsense.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Can I ask who labelled Bollyn an 'Anti-Semite'? Being pro-Palestinian doesn't make a person a foot-stomping nazi fascist anti-Semite? I have a friend who spent time in Palestine doing charity work. The idea that she is anti-Semitic because she passionately supports the Palestinian cause, is utterly laughable. Likewise, there are plenty of books on Amazon by Jewish intellectuals who are critical of the Israeli state. Come on people, you are better than slapping two-word labels on other people without any other further explanation.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

~ Evelyn Beatrice Hall in 1906

The Estonia disaster is a human disaster not a battle of ideology.

So now we're in the bit where you try to rehabilitate Bollyn as a source, now that you find yourself unable to deny that he is in fact your source. Just like you did with Bjorkman.

I had been thinking of posting that as a prediction, but wimped out, so I don't get to do my "called it" dance. But the behavior was expected.

[MarkCorrigan]

Bollyn isn't "pro-Palestinian" he's a rabid anti-Semite who thinks Israel did 9/11 because Jews.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by whoanellie

From Wikipedia

Looking up this character, it seems MV-Lehti, like some of the once 'edgy' alternative media, such as Julie Burchill, an erstwhile prize-winning 'young journalist of the year' who wrote about alternative rock for NME, is now today's far right / anarchists.

This magazine still seems to be in circulation so presumably it is no longer raiding police central computers to illegally publish personal details of immigrants, interestingly, Ilya Janitskin himself having a Russian-sounding name.

OK, I wasn't aware of any of this. I only ever read HS, TS, I-L and I-S.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Yes the rescue was coordinated but the on scene commander had no authoritative powers over the Swedish Navy helicopters.
They were cooperating with the 'civil power'. He could not order them to do anything.

Yes, he did have authority. Only designated aircraft were allowed in the area.

[SpitfireIX]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Can I ask who labelled Bollyn an 'Anti-Semite'? Being pro-Palestinian doesn't make a person a foot-stomping nazi fascist anti-Semite? I have a friend who spent time in Palestine doing charity work. The idea that she is anti-Semitic because she passionately supports the Palestinian cause, is utterly laughable. Likewise, there are plenty of books on Amazon by Jewish intellectuals who are critical of the Israeli state. Come on people, you are better than slapping two-word labels on other people without any other further explanation.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

~ Evelyn Beatrice Hall in 1906

The Estonia disaster is a human disaster not a battle of ideology.

Excerpt from his book on the September 11 attacks:

This chapter examines an extensive Zionist criminal network, which the evidence indicates is behind the false-flag terrorism of 9/11. The information in this chapter strongly supports the thesis that senior officers from Israeli military intelligence agencies were the chief architects of 9/11. . . .

Aware of the increasing prevalence and dominance of Zionist Jews in the political, financial, and academic sectors, I came to the conclusion that I was living in Jewish times. As an American raised with traditional Christian values, I realized that the culture I had grown up in was under attack and being reduced to a sub-culture. Through the Jewish-controlled media, a distinctly foreign and anti-Christian culture of pornography, perversion, and violence was being pushed. The producers of this "new culture" were primarily Jews of Eastern European origin. Through their control of the mass media, film, radio, and television networks, a diet of perverse entertainment and un-American values was being force-fed to the unsuspecting American population.

Concurrent with the rise of the Jewish-Zionist faction in the U.S. media there was a significant increase in Zionist power in the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government. This influence could be seen in the way the U.S. government and federal courts unfairly prosecuted innocent people, including the president of Austria, on unfounded allegations of crimes having been committed decades ago against Jews in distant countries. Meanwhile, there was a noticeable increase in the number and magnitude of crimes committed by Jews in the United States and the international arena that went completely unpunished.

As in the Soviet Union, Jewish criminals in America used the "holocaust" and the slanderous charge of anti-Semitism as a shield to protect their criminal network and extortion rackets by intimidating and silencing those who would dare to expose the monstrous crimes they were involved in. A secret "combination" or Zionist network was clearly at work pulling the strings at the highest level behind the scenes.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

OK, I wasn't aware of any of this. I only ever read HS, TS, I-L and I-S.

Which one of those were the source for the claim that the Egyptions were disappeared?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Can I ask who labelled Bollyn an 'Anti-Semite'?

Try a Google search.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

That didn't answer the question.
Who got a medal for disobeying a command?

A rescue man does not control the helicopter, the pilot does.
A Swedish navy pilot will be taking orders from his own squadron commander.

Where is your evidence anyone got a medal for disobeying a command?

The JAIC itself tells you the parameters of the OSC commands and one of them was to drop off the dead or the survivors either on the deck of the ships or at Utö, to be transferred to a relevant hospital. Once Turku was full, they were taken to Mariehamn.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Even if they refused the OSC has no power to force a Swedish military helicopter to do anything.

If a ship overturns in the English Channel, can a helicopter from Sweden pop over and cart the survivors off to Sweden?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

OK, I wasn't aware of any of this. I only ever read HS, TS, I-L and I-S.

Then why did you say that MV Lehti was the source for your claim that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The point I was making was the idea that 'the Swedish helicopters had to fly directly to Huddinge because there were no other hospitals nearby' is utter nonsense.

Two helicopters on their way back to their base for repairs dropped survivors they had onboard at a hospital close to their direct route.