Continuation The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

If a ship overturns in the English Channel, can a helicopter from Sweden pop over and cart the survivors off to Sweden?

No, somebody closer is bound to get there first.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

MV-media, also known as MV??!!, formerly Mitä Vittua? ("What the ****?") and MV-lehti is a Finnish alternative media site based in Spain.

MV-lehti has been accused of racism and spreading fake news and hate speech. Due to this, Janitskin was suspected of several crimes, including incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, libel and copyright infringement, and was taken into custody by the Andorran police in August 2017.He was later extradited to Finland, and in October 2018, Janitskin was convicted of 16 offences and given a 22-month prison sentence

He denied in court he was ever editor-in-chief of that paper.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Yes, he did have authority. Only designated aircraft were allowed in the area.

It was not in his power to directly control aircraft.
How would he know what aircraft were in the area or the position of those that were there? Ferries do not have air search radar or an aircraft plot or plotting crew.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

How convenient that there isn't any evidence for the claims, it has all mysteriously disappeared, even the claimed German reports were seized by German security forces.

How far does this conspiracy run? Why wasn't the seizing of news footage by the 'security forces' reported in Germany, it would be a big scandal if they were acting on behalf of a foreign government to sensor German news organisations.

You haven't answered how they got listed as survivors in the first place.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

The author lists Bollyn as one of his sources.

Can someone tell me what Bollyn's crimes are, other than writing a book about 9/11 claiming Mossad was behind it?

There are all kinds of theories about 9/11. Who cares if some guy has yet another theory?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Excerpt from his book on the September 11 attacks:

This chapter examines an extensive Zionist criminal network, which the evidence indicates is behind the false-flag terrorism of 9/11. The information in this chapter strongly supports the thesis that senior officers from Israeli military intelligence agencies were the chief architects of 9/11. . . .

Aware of the increasing prevalence and dominance of Zionist Jews in the political, financial, and academic sectors, I came to the conclusion that I was living in Jewish times. As an American raised with traditional Christian values, I realized that the culture I had grown up in was under attack and being reduced to a sub-culture. Through the Jewish-controlled media, a distinctly foreign and anti-Christian culture of pornography, perversion, and violence was being pushed. The producers of this "new culture" were primarily Jews of Eastern European origin. Through their control of the mass media, film, radio, and television networks, a diet of perverse entertainment and un-American values was being force-fed to the unsuspecting American population.

Concurrent with the rise of the Jewish-Zionist faction in the U.S. media there was a significant increase in Zionist power in the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of government. This influence could be seen in the way the U.S. government and federal courts unfairly prosecuted innocent people, including the president of Austria, on unfounded allegations of crimes having been committed decades ago against Jews in distant countries. Meanwhile, there was a noticeable increase in the number and magnitude of crimes committed by Jews in the United States and the international arena that went completely unpunished.

As in the Soviet Union, Jewish criminals in America used the "holocaust" and the slanderous charge of anti-Semitism as a shield to protect their criminal network and extortion rackets by intimidating and silencing those who would dare to expose the monstrous crimes they were involved in. A secret "combination" or Zionist network was clearly at work pulling the strings at the highest level behind the scenes.

But apart from that, how was your holiday in Netanya?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Can I ask who labelled Bollyn an 'Anti-Semite'? Being pro-Palestinian doesn't make a person a foot-stomping nazi fascist anti-Semite? I have a friend who spent time in Palestine doing charity work. The idea that she is anti-Semitic because she passionately supports the Palestinian cause, is utterly laughable. Likewise, there are plenty of books on Amazon by Jewish intellectuals who are critical of the Israeli state. Come on people, you are better than slapping two-word labels on other people without any other further explanation.

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

~ Evelyn Beatrice Hall in 1906

The Estonia disaster is a human disaster not a battle of ideology.

Why would you care. You have never heard of him, and certainly never used him as a source. He is just some dude on the internet.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The JAIC itself tells you the parameters of the OSC commands and one of them was to drop off the dead or the survivors either on the deck of the ships or at Utö, to be transferred to a relevant hospital. Once Turku was full, they were taken to Mariehamn.

OSC could not issue 'commands' the OSC was a coordinator for the various resources at the scene.

If a Swedish Navy helicopter wanted to vary it's route to drop of survivors at a hospital more convenient for the overall mission, why would the OSC object. How would he stop it happening?

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

He denied in court he was ever editor-in-chief of that paper.

He lied. Fascists lie.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

But it was a longer diversion from the direct route back to the base for repairs and crew change.

Berga is 35km from Huddinge Hospital.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

If a ship overturns in the English Channel, can a helicopter from Sweden pop over and cart the survivors off to Sweden?

Why would it? For obvious reasons, If a ship sank in the channel French and British helicopters would be involved.
Survivors would be taken to the most convenient location.

If it sank close to the French coast I would expect just French helicopters to respond, and similar for British helicopters if it was near the British coast.

A request could be made to other nations to assist the rescue but the country a helicopter belonged to would still have control if it.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

He denied in court he was ever editor-in-chief of that paper.

Well they had evidence otherwise and convicted him.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You haven't answered how they got listed as survivors in the first place.

Because it was a confusing situation involving helicopter and surface SAR teams from four nations and ships from three taking survivors to several locations in two different countries.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

Then why did you say that MV Lehti was the source for your claim that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians?

Obviously, I am talking about regularly read newspapers.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Berga is 35km from Huddinge Hospital.

But the route from the rescue area the helicopter was working in to it's base via Huddinge is the shortest route.

[junkshop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

OK, I wasn't aware of any of this. I only ever read HS, TS, I-L and I-S.

Originally Posted by Mojo

Then why did you say that MV Lehti was the source for your claim that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians?

Originally Posted by Vixen

Obviously, I am talking about regularly read newspapers.

How is the latter statement obvious from the former?

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Obviously, I am talking about regularly read newspapers.

Once again, MV Lehti is not a regularly read newspaper.

It is a right-wing propaganda outlet.

You are beginning to convince me that you actually are neo-fascist.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Vixen

He denied in court he was ever editor-in-chief of that paper.

Originally Posted by Marras

He lied. Fascists lie.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Well they had evidence otherwise and convicted him.

If someone makes a statement that may even marginally support Vixen's fantasy they are, in her mind, 100% honest and above reproach.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Two helicopters on their way back to their base for repairs dropped survivors they had onboard at a hospital close to their direct route.

No, the JIAC gives the reason as being 'low on fuel'.

This underlines my belief there was a helicopter on the scene, having left just after 0200 (EET) within the standard 15-minute time frame, and as there was no OSC as of that time, it simply took the persons it rescued to Huddinge. As these turned out to include some members of the senior crew - who unsurprisingly would be travelling together - just like, Sillaste, Treu, Linde and Kadak, who were also all in one raft - as they were accommodated in the upper decks in nearby cabins.

As they had to be removed from the list of survivors later, JAIC found it easier to simply ignore the early flight all together and pretend Svensson's team did not arrive until near six o'clock and only picked up one survivor.

The fact one team member might have swapped with another team member does not obscure the fact that Y64's tally was one, when earlier Svensson had been giving it large to Aftonbladet that he (his team) had rescued eight human beings plus one who died.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Obviously, I am talking about regularly read newspapers.

Are you saying that MV Lehti was the source for your claim that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

Excerpt from his book on the September 11 attacks:

[indent]This chapter examines an extensive Zionist criminal network, which the evidence indicates is behind the false-flag terrorism of 9/11. The information in this chapter strongly supports the thesis that senior officers from Israeli military intelligence agencies were the chief architects of 9/11. . . <snip>

Blimey.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Mojo

Are you saying that MV Lehti was the source for your claim that Sweden disappeared the Egyptians?

No I did not. The point being made was that it was in the general public domain and the MV Lehti article (which I actually mistook for MTV) was one I found at random as an example.

[MarkCorrigan]

Vixen, would you please enlighten me as to what you think a cult of personality is?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No I did not. The point being made was that it was in the general public domain and the MV Lehti article (which I actually mistook for MTV)

Quote:

…was one I found at random as an example.

Do you have a reputable source that said it?

ETA: Perhaps one of the four newspapers that you actually read?

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Heh, has anyone ever seen Bollyn and Bjorkman in the same room together...?

I've had lengthy interactions with Björkman, but none whatsoever with Bollyn. From what they've written I conclude they are separate people. Besides, you don't seem to be a very reliable authority on who is real and who isn't.

Quote:

...is an important figure in your eyes?

You cited him as your source. You seem to believe he is important.

Quote:

As I said, I do not agree with either Bollyn or Bjorkman.

You have cited both men as your sources, and now are trying to pretend you didn't and don't. In Björkman's case, you vacillate between denouncing him and rehabilitating him as an expert. You continue to use both men as authorities in your argument, even if you do not directly cite to them. You have learned not to mention them, but you have not stopped repeating their ideas.

What is more egregious in my mind is your habitual lying, especially since so much of your argument appears to rest on facts you present on your own authority. Tell us why a rational person should pay attention to someone whose first impulse seems to be to lie.

Quote:

For example, Bjorkman says he agrees with AB Silve Linde. I do not.

Straw man. I may disagree with Sir Patrick Moore on political topics, but I still cite him as an authority on astronomy. You are still relying on Björkman to feed you snippets from Aftonbladet, and upon his version of ship stability. Although you tried very hard to conceal that Bollyn was your source for the enforced disappearance claim, you were unsuccessful.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

A generally read newspaper.

No.

In any case, the new citation is irrelevant. You already cited Bollyn as your source, and it's the same source your newspaper cites.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

What I actually said was...

No. What you actually said was what other posters have quoted you as saying.

Quote:

To twist that into 'speaking ill of Svensson' shows a certain kind of dishonesty...

No twisting was required. You seem to have a very selective memory for what you and others have posted.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't register the author nor did I know who he was.

You cited him as a source. The article you cited spells out exactly the legal theory you're now trying to say has been so commonly reported that it must have come from someplace else. You have yet to cite any other source that makes these same pseudo-legal claims. Just how dumb do you think other people are?

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Who knows what the truth is about this person. Fact is I am not interested in the cult of personality. Full stop.

This is the same lame excuse you offer every time one of your authorities revealed not to be one. With neither Björkman nor Bollyn is the question of one of a "personality cult." The question is whether they are reliable authorities for the claims they have made, which you have happily borrowed. The amount of effort you expend dodging an examination of your sources leads me to conclude you know full well who they are and what their reputation is, but you plan to see how far you can lie about what your sources are.

Bollyn is clearly your source for the claim that Sweden committed the crime of enforced disappearance against two Egyptian deportees, and that this should be considered a continuation of their behavior in the MS Estonia case. An honest person would have realized after some discussion that the claim is factually wrong and legally absurd. You have not; you have pressed onward hoping enough of that claim seems superficially credible and that no one would find out where you got it from.

[Steve]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

You cited him as a source. The article you cited spells out exactly the legal theory you're now trying to say has been so commonly reported that it must have come from someplace else. You have yet to cite any other source that makes these same pseudo-legal claims. Just how dumb do you think other people are?

No doubt Vixen thinks all other people are just a little dumber than she is.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No, the JIAC gives the reason as being 'low on fuel'.

This underlines my belief there was a helicopter on the scene, having left just after 0200 (EET) within the standard 15-minute time frame, and as there was no OSC as of that time, it simply took the persons it rescued to Huddinge. As these turned out to include some members of the senior crew - who unsurprisingly would be travelling together - just like, Sillaste, Treu, Linde and Kadak, who were also all in one raft - as they were accommodated in the upper decks in nearby cabins.

As they had to be removed from the list of survivors later, JAIC found it easier to simply ignore the early flight all together and pretend Svensson's team did not arrive until near six o'clock and only picked up one survivor.

The fact one team member might have swapped with another team member does not obscure the fact that Y64's tally was one, when earlier Svensson had been giving it large to Aftonbladet that he (his team) had rescued eight human beings plus one who died.

Why does taking the most direct route for repair and dropping survivors on the way mean they weren't also low on fuel?
By the time they returned they had been in the air for hours.

There was no 'standard 15 minute timefraim'

We went through this in great detail just a week or so ago. At the time of the Estonia sinking the standby time was one hour.

Also Y 64 was not a SAR helicopter. It was not on standby to do anything. It was an Anti Submarine helicopter. It' along with a number of others was brought in to supplement the SAR helicopters.

[junkshop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

... the MV Lehti article (which I actually mistook for MTV) was one I found at random as an example.

Maybe you should read things more carefully before you cite them.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Can someone tell me what Bollyn's crimes are, other than writing a book about 9/11 claiming Mossad was behind it?

There are all kinds of theories about 9/11. Who cares if some guy has yet another theory?

Because examining people's theories informs us how devoted they are to the otherwise discoverable truth.

I see that in a short space of time you've gone from denying that Christopher Bollyn is a real person -- claiming it to be a pen name of "disiniformationists" -- to saying he's an okay chap and we should listen to him even if he has strange beliefs. As others have noted, this change of heart coincides with your inability to hide him any further as your source for the claim regarding Sweden, the Egyptians, and international law. You'll find him just as difficult to whitewash as Björkman.

You're asking us to trust Bollyn's judgment and legal analysis. You're asking us to trust that he has represented the facts correctly. We're showing you the reasons why such trust should not be granted.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Obviously, I am talking about regularly read newspapers.

You tried to cite MV Lehti as an independent source for the legal theory that Sweden's deportation of two Egyptians constituted enforced disappearance as defined in the 1998 Rome Statute, and that a court found as much. It is not an independent source, as it cites to Bollyn.

You have insinuated that this theory is well enough known that other sources have reported on it. But you have yet to cite any such sources, "regularly read" or otherwise. And it really does not matter at this point, because you seem to have forgotten that you identified Bollyn as your source. Bollyn is your problem because you made it so.

[Marras]

Originally Posted by junkshop

Maybe you should read things more carefully before you cite them.

That's also on the level of "I confused OANN with CNN" or "I confused Epoch Times with New York Times".

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No I did not. The point being made was that it was in the general public domain and the MV Lehti article (which I actually mistook for MTV) was one I found at random as an example.

Since it's not an independent source, please cite to another one. While I'm sure MV Lehti will not be the only publication that refers to Bollyn, the point is that you referred to Bollyn and identified him as the source, citing to the very article in which the theory was explained. Whatever other reporting there may be, your source is Bollyn.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Blimey.

Is that a concession that the excerpt shows that the label "anti-Semitic" is properly applied to Christopher Bollyn?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The point I was making was the idea that 'the Swedish helicopters had to fly directly to Huddinge because there were no other hospitals nearby' is utter nonsense.

That may be nonsense but it's your nonsense because as usual it wasn't the claim. Y74 had to return to base for a change of crew before rejoining the search. Diverting to Utö would have delayed that and would not have got the survivors to a proper hospital as soon as flying them to Huddinge.

What part did you not understand?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Berga is 35km from Huddinge Hospital.

And Huddinge hospital is a hospital, which Utö is not. And Utö did not have an inexhaustible supply of beds or fuel for helicopters. There was no good reason to go there instead and indeed sensible reasons not to.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Vixen, would you please enlighten me as to what you think a cult of personality is?

In this context, the idea that one idealised person is the possessor of some kind of esoteric knowledge; his or her followers lap up every word like pearls of wisdom which they can quote like shining drops of molten gold off by heart, whenever the occasion demands it.

The idea that I am a follower of some not-even-particularly bright or literate person is just so funny.