[Continuation] The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V - Page 7

JayUtah · 9th January 2022, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

I have not hitched my horse to any cart.

You have clearly done so in Björkman's case because you have cited to him on several occasions, some of them recently. If you now propose to unhitch your horse from Björkman, will you now concede he is an unreliable witness on the subject of science and engineering? Will you stop using his material, cited or uncited? Can this finally be decided once and for all?

As I've mentioned several times, this thread is lengthy largely because we must have this same discussion over and over again. You disavow a source, and then just days later you're hitched back up to it as if nothing had ever happened. I tend to agree with Mark Corrigan. I see no evidence you plan to stop using Björkman as a source. It seems your plan is simply not to give a citation to him, but to continue using his material uncredited in the hopes that no one will be able to recognize where it's coming from.

Jack by the hedge · 9th January 2022, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

There was a refuelling station especially for the helicopters at Utö.

Which ran out of fuel about 06:30. Before Y74 could have refuelled there.

Jack by the hedge · 9th January 2022, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

From JAIC:

"Q 97 (Super Puma)

The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97 took off from Visby at 0250 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 0350 hrs. The OSC requested the helicopter to pick up as many people as possible from the sea.

On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible." 7.5.5

This was the first 'urgent' helicopter to arrive according to JAIC.

Right. And why should we take your inference of what your source's claim about what a newspaper said about what two helicopter crew said over that?

Mojo · 9th January 2022, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

I mistook it for an ordinary newspaper because that is what it looks like when you click on it.

You said you mistook it for MTV.

Jack by the hedge · 9th January 2022, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

...
This underlines my belief there was a helicopter on the scene, having left just after 0200 (EET) within the standard 15-minute time frame, and as there was no OSC as of that time, it simply took the persons it rescued to Huddinge.

I just checked the report again and MRCC Turku designated the master of the Silja Europa to be OSC at 02:05.

Even if some undocumented flight had existed which took off from Sweden "just after 02:00" there was no possibility of this helicopter arriving at the location of the sinking before there was an appointed OSC.

MarkCorrigan · 9th January 2022, 11:28 AM

Also Vixen, you've still not provided a real world example of a disinformation agent pretending to hold a specific view in order to link it to extremism. You claimed it happens, so provide evidence.

abaddon · 9th January 2022, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

There was a refuelling station especially for the helicopters at Utö.

Except it was out of fuel.
Any idea why it ran out so fast, vixen?

abaddon · 9th January 2022, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Mojo

You said you mistook it for MTV.

Indeed.

The two quotes in question are...

Originally Posted by Vixen

the MV Lehti article (which I actually mistook for MTV)

Why on earth would anyone get their news from MTV anyway?

Originally Posted by Vixen

I mistook it for an ordinary newspaper because that is what it looks like when you click on it.

"Looks like" does not mean "is". Surely a genius like you can work that out, right?

In any event, you have suffered another blow to your credibility, Vixen.

What's next? You mistook MV Lehti for the Lord of the Rings?

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by JayUtah

You have clearly done so in Björkman's case because you have cited to him on several occasions, some of them recently. If you now propose to unhitch your horse from Björkman, will you now concede he is an unreliable witness on the subject of science and engineering? Will you stop using his material, cited or uncited? Can this finally be decided once and for all?

As I've mentioned several times, this thread is lengthy largely because we must have this same discussion over and over again. You disavow a source, and then just days later you're hitched back up to it as if nothing had ever happened. I tend to agree with Mark Corrigan. I see no evidence you plan to stop using Björkman as a source. It seems your plan is simply not to give a citation to him, but to continue using his material uncredited in the hopes that no one will be able to recognize where it's coming from.

You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Which ran out of fuel about 06:30. Before Y74 could have refuelled there.

Where does it say that?

Was that before or after:

"At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves."

MarkCorrigan · 9th January 2022, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.

Except you have attempted, regularly, to use him as an authority on naval architecture and buoyancy, so that's also a lie.

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Also Vixen, you've still not provided a real world example of a disinformation agent pretending to hold a specific view in order to link it to extremism. You claimed it happens, so provide evidence.

If you had studied Eastern Europe as you claim in International Relations, you would know that this was a typical Russian activity, intelligence agencies manipulating the public.

One such example is MI5 setting up Combat-18.

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Except it was out of fuel.
Any idea why it ran out so fast, vixen?

Citation please it ran out of fuel.

MarkCorrigan · 9th January 2022, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

If you had studied Eastern Europe as you claim in International Relations, you would know that this was a typical Russian activity, intelligence agencies manipulating the public.

One such example is MI5 setting up Combat-18.

I'm sorry but what?

That's just all nonsense. Provide evidence of Russian intelligence agencies pretending to support something in order to associate it with extremism. You still seem to think you can vaguely allude to things and be taken seriously. Provide examples.

Secondly not only would the hilighted NOT be an example of what you claimed and what I'm asking you for, but it's not even true! Combat 18 was formed by the BNP in order to provide protection details for it's events from anti0fascist groups.

Where on earth did you get the insane idea that MI5 founded it?

JayUtah · 9th January 2022, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.

False. You have cited him multiple times as an expert in marine engineering. You continue to use him as an uncredited source. Not only is he "on your radar," you have based large portions of your presentation here on what he says.

In the wake of your recent acknowledgement that you are not careful in how you choose your sources, and your recent resolve to be more careful, it seems prudent to revisit your reliance on a witness we know far better than you, and whom you seem utterly incapable of forsaking.

If you believe he is not "on your radar," you should have no problem conceding that he is not a recognized expert in any sort of science or engineering, and abiding by a promise never to use his material again, credited or uncredited. Will you do that? Or are we going to have to revisit this again in two weeks or so when you sneak back to his material?

Steve · 9th January 2022, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Why on earth would anyone get their news from MTV anyway?

"Money for nothing and my chicks for free"!

Jack by the hedge · 9th January 2022, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Where does it say that?

Was that before or after:

"At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves."

It's from here:

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt17_1.html#6

"At about 0630 hrs the helicopter fuel supply at Utö ran out. After this, the helicopters flew the survivors and the deceased to Hanko or Nauvo, where refuelling took place. The fuel supply at Hanko, in turn, ran out at about 1000 hrs, and five helicopters had to wait for half an hour for a new supply."

Your quotation about the rescue man's flippers is from what the report says about the actions of helicopter Y74. Since it is a quote from a paragraph whose immediately preceding sentence is "At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter" I suggest the flipper incident was soon after 07:15.

I think you can probably work out whether 06:30 is before or after 07:15.

Actually, your quote is not quite the same as mine: My copy/paste says "because" where your copy/paste says "be- cause". I infer that you are quoting from a secondary source and not the report itself. Perhaps that explains why you didn't know what time the flipper incident happened even though it says so right in the same paragraph.

GlennB · 9th January 2022, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.

Then why have you repeatedly used his crackpot ideas about Archimedes' principle/buoyancy/the inevitability of turtling etc. so relentlessly over many weeks? You linked to his work. He is/was very much 'on your radar'.

Why lie so brazenly when your words are here in black+white for all to see?

Captain_Swoop · 9th January 2022, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

Sources please for what Olsson and Svensson allegedly said. What time did any Swedish helicopter get alerted and by whom?

First Swedish helicopter alerted was the Standby RAS helicopter Q97 at Visby. It was a Super Puma. It was on one hour standby. It was alerted at 02:07 by ARCC Arlanda. It was in the air at 02:50 and was on scene at 03:50. It rescued 15 survivors.
On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible.
After refuelling, Q 97 returned at 0540 hrs to the scene and rescued nine survivors, five from a liferaft and four from the water. They were in very poor condition. The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland. Q 97 landed at a sports field in Hanko at 0735 hrs, and local residents quickly summoned ambulances to the field. The crew was advised to fly to the Hanko coast guard station landing field, where they could refuel.
Q 97 took off from Hanko for the accident scene at 0810 hrs and returned to Hanko at 1050 hrs. After refuelling Q 97 returned to its base and finished the mission at 1615 hrs.

Notice that the pilot made the decision to fly to Hanko, I suppose he should have been castigated for not following the OSC commands.

Jack by the hedge · 9th January 2022, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Citation please it ran out of fuel.

Have you read the report?

I mean the report. Not someone else's interpretation.

Steve · 9th January 2022, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Where does it say that?

Was that before or after:

"At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves."

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

It's from here:

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt17_1.html#6

"At about 0630 hrs the helicopter fuel supply at Utö ran out. After this, the helicopters flew the survivors and the deceased to Hanko or Nauvo, where refuelling took place. The fuel supply at Hanko, in turn, ran out at about 1000 hrs, and five helicopters had to wait for half an hour for a new supply."

Your quotation about the rescue man's flippers is from what the report says about the actions of helicopter Y74. Since it is a quote from a paragraph whose immediately preceding sentence is "At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter" I suggest the flipper incident was soon after 07:15.

I think you can probably work out whether 06:30 is before or after 07:15.

Will you look at that Vixen. A link to a reputable source that actually supports what was posted. You should try this sometime. Do it enough times and people just might, maybe, start to take a few of your more sane ideas a little more seriously.

Reformed Offlian · 9th January 2022, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Actually the source Reformed Offlian provided as a wikipedia footnote as to why Kenneth Svensson got the Swedish Defence Forces Gold Medal of Merit with Sword, also seems to quote the same Aftonbladet article.

I'd still like to know what you're talking about here. The wiki I recall linking was this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record

Which doesn't say anything about Aftonbladet or Svensson.

Could you be thinking of a different poster, or a different article?

Reformed Offlian · 9th January 2022, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.

Feel free to help us with that fixation by citing any credible, independent source for any of the relevant claims. As long as Bjorkman is your go-to source, your interlocutors are going to keep bringing up his name, especially when your attempts to minimize his role as your authority require such corrective emphasis.

Expect a similar outcome with Bollyn.

Jack by the hedge · 9th January 2022, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

...
Notice that the pilot made the decision to fly to Hanko, I suppose he should have been castigated for not following the OSC commands.

Yes, I saw that and thanks for the extra details.

The window of opportunity for Vixen's undocumented flight is pretty well shut. Especially since her explanation of the reason for its secrecy has abandoned any idea that the flight was originally intended to be secret, but rather that it was a straightforward search and rescue flight which just so happened to rescue the 9 officers, and only later in hindsight was it decided to erase all record of it.

Captain_Swoop · 9th January 2022, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

From JAIC:

"Q 97 (Super Puma)

The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97 took off from Visby at 0250 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 0350 hrs. The OSC requested the helicopter to pick up as many people as possible from the sea.

On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible." 7.5.5

This was the first 'urgent' helicopter to arrive according to JAIC.

Because at the time the standby for SAR helicopters was one hour.

There was a standby SAR already in the air, Q 99, the stand-by helicopter at Ronneby was already on another rescue mission just south of Öland, where it rescued two survivors from a fishing vessel.
This mission finished at 0238 hrs. Ordered immediately to proceed to the scene of the accident, Q 99 landed at 0325 hrs at Visby for refuelling and maintenance of equipment and took off from Visby at 0355 hrs, reaching the scene of the accident at 0440 hrs.

Marras · 9th January 2022, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Why on earth would anyone get their news from MTV anyway?

MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

It's from here:

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt17_1.html#6

"At about 0630 hrs the helicopter fuel supply at Utö ran out. After this, the helicopters flew the survivors and the deceased to Hanko or Nauvo, where refuelling took place. The fuel supply at Hanko, in turn, ran out at about 1000 hrs, and five helicopters had to wait for half an hour for a new supply."

Your quotation about the rescue man's flippers is from what the report says about the actions of helicopter Y74. Since it is a quote from a paragraph whose immediately preceding sentence is "At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter" I suggest the flipper incident was soon after 07:15.

I think you can probably work out whether 06:30 is before or after 07:15.

Actually, your quote is not quite the same as mine: My copy/paste says "because" where your copy/paste says "be- cause". I infer that you are quoting from a secondary source and not the report itself. Perhaps that explains why you didn't know what time the flipper incident happened even though it says so right in the same paragraph.

It was from the report.

Nauvo is just a short journey away from Utö and is between it and Parainen.

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

First Swedish helicopter alerted was the Standby RAS helicopter Q97 at Visby. It was a Super Puma. It was on one hour standby. It was alerted at 02:07 by ARCC Arlanda. It was in the air at 02:50 and was on scene at 03:50. It rescued 15 survivors.
On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible.
After refuelling, Q 97 returned at 0540 hrs to the scene and rescued nine survivors, five from a liferaft and four from the water. They were in very poor condition. The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland. Q 97 landed at a sports field in Hanko at 0735 hrs, and local residents quickly summoned ambulances to the field. The crew was advised to fly to the Hanko coast guard station landing field, where they could refuel.
Q 97 took off from Hanko for the accident scene at 0810 hrs and returned to Hanko at 1050 hrs. After refuelling Q 97 returned to its base and finished the mission at 1615 hrs.

Notice that the pilot made the decision to fly to Hanko, I suppose he should have been castigated for not following the OSC commands.

Hanko was the OSC designated destination for those with fractures as it has a specialised unit that deals with fractures.

Quote:

. It was announced this afternoon that no more survivors were coming. A doctor and nurse were sent from Ekenäs to Tulliniemi in Hanko to receive patients brought there by helicopter. They had to assess the condition of the patients on site and send them to the right place of treatment.
However, not much could be done. By the time Dr. Jukka Leinonen got to Hanko, 14 live and one dead had been brought there. After that, six more dead people were admitted to the hospital.

HS 29.9.1994

Captain_Swoop · 9th January 2022, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Where does it say that?

Was that before or after:

"At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves."

Section 7.5.4

Quote:

Maintenance
At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there.
Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo.
At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there.
Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites.

Have you read the report?

Captain_Swoop · 9th January 2022, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Citation please it ran out of fuel.

From the report section 7.5.4

Quote:

Maintenance
At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there.
Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo.
At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there.
Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites.

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Will you look at that Vixen. A link to a reputable source that actually supports what was posted. You should try this sometime. Do it enough times and people just might, maybe, start to take a few of your more sane ideas a little more seriously.

You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.

abaddon · 9th January 2022, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Citation please it ran out of fuel.

Sure.

JAIC 7.5.4

Quote:

Maintenance

At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there.
Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo.
At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there.
Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites.

Think you can read this reference for a change?

Captain_Swoop · 9th January 2022, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

Hanko was the OSC designated destination for those with fractures as it has a specialised unit that deals with fractures.

HS 29.9.1994

Q 97 was the first to arrive. It was the pilot that made the decision.

Quote:

The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland.

Captain_Swoop · 9th January 2022, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.

Your point being?

You do know there was a backup of aircraft waiting for refueling?

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

I'd still like to know what you're talking about here. The wiki I recall linking was this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record

Which doesn't say anything about Aftonbladet or Svensson.

Could you be thinking of a different poster, or a different article?

What does that have to do with Svensson.

The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8.

Quote:

Ensign Kenneth Svensson, surface rescuer at the sinking of M / S Estonia 27 September 1994, awarded 15 January 1996. [ 8 ]

...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago':

Quote:

After ten years: No one has forgotten Estonia
Ten years after the Estonia disaster. Life has gone on for survivors, relatives and everyone else who was affected.

TT has investigated what some of the main characters do today.

HEAD OF GOVERNMENT. Carl Bildt, Esko Aho and Mart Laar were heads of government in Sweden, Finland and Estonia at the time of the sinking.
On Wednesday afternoon, September 28, 1994, less than a day after the disaster, the three gathered for a joint press conference in Turku.

SURFACE RESCUERS. Survivors were a professional group that came into focus during the rescue work. Kenneth Svensson, then ensign at the helicopter division in Berga, is one of these heroes. He rescued eight people from the raging sea, seven of whom survived.

"I will never forget the visions I encountered when I went down to those in need," he said afterwards.

When the winch for the helicopter got into trouble, he at one point dived into the water without a lifeline to try to save another person in need. Kenneth Svensson was later awarded the Defense Medal of Merit in gold.

He still serves as a lifeguard, now at the Malmen helicopter flotilla outside Linköping. (TT)

Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.

Steve · 9th January 2022, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Will you look at that Vixen. A link to a reputable source that actually supports what was posted. You should try this sometime. Do it enough times and people just might, maybe, start to take a few of your more sane ideas a little more seriously.

Originally Posted by Vixen

You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.

But then "responses" like this that have zero to do with the post you quoted just send your credibility even further into the negative.

Captain_Swoop · 9th January 2022, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

What does that have to do with Svensson.

The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8.

...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago':

Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.

You think there isn't an official record of his award and commendation?

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

Feel free to help us with that fixation by citing any credible, independent source for any of the relevant claims. As long as Bjorkman is your go-to source, your interlocutors are going to keep bringing up his name, especially when your attempts to minimize his role as your authority require such corrective emphasis.

Expect a similar outcome with Bollyn.

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Quote:

Sweden’s Disappeared: The Search for Justice and the Right to the Truth
Von Susanne Berger

For the Swedish victims of enforced disappearance and their families, the legal Right to the Truth is only meaningful if governments and international courts are committed to its enforcement.

Vixen · 9th January 2022, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Q 97 was the first to arrive. It was the pilot that made the decision.

Yes, a whole two hours after Estonia disappeared off the radar with >500 stricken Swedish nationals on board.

Captain Swoop: "That's fine."

Jack by the hedge · 9th January 2022, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Vixen

It was from the report.

If it wasn't from a secondary source, why does yours have the weird formatting then? I quoted the report and it doesn't have that.

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt07_2.html Search the one mention of "flippers" on the page.

9th January 2022, 10:53 AM	#241
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,561	Originally Posted by Vixen I have not hitched my horse to any cart. You have clearly done so in Björkman's case because you have cited to him on several occasions, some of them recently. If you now propose to unhitch your horse from Björkman, will you now concede he is an unreliable witness on the subject of science and engineering? Will you stop using his material, cited or uncited? Can this finally be decided once and for all? As I've mentioned several times, this thread is lengthy largely because we must have this same discussion over and over again. You disavow a source, and then just days later you're hitched back up to it as if nothing had ever happened. I tend to agree with Mark Corrigan. I see no evidence you plan to stop using Björkman as a source. It seems your plan is simply not to give a citation to him, but to continue using his material uncredited in the hopes that no one will be able to recognize where it's coming from.
	Last edited by JayUtah; 9th January 2022 at 10:55 AM.

9th January 2022, 11:11 AM	#244
Mojo Mostly harmless Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 37,079	Originally Posted by Vixen I mistook it for an ordinary newspaper because that is what it looks like when you click on it. You said you mistook it for MTV.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky

9th January 2022, 11:28 AM	#246
MarkCorrigan ¡No pasarán! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Слава Україні Posts: 11,579	Also Vixen, you've still not provided a real world example of a disinformation agent pretending to hold a specific view in order to link it to extremism. You claimed it happens, so provide evidence.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara

9th January 2022, 11:30 AM	#247
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,499	Originally Posted by Vixen There was a refuelling station especially for the helicopters at Utö. Except it was out of fuel. Any idea why it ran out so fast, vixen?
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

9th January 2022, 11:42 AM	#248
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,499	Originally Posted by Mojo You said you mistook it for MTV. Indeed. The two quotes in question are... Originally Posted by Vixen the MV Lehti article (which I actually mistook for MTV) Why on earth would anyone get their news from MTV anyway? Originally Posted by Vixen I mistook it for an ordinary newspaper because that is what it looks like when you click on it. "Looks like" does not mean "is". Surely a genius like you can work that out, right? In any event, you have suffered another blow to your credibility, Vixen. What's next? You mistook MV Lehti for the Lord of the Rings?
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

9th January 2022, 11:00 AM	#242
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,697	Originally Posted by Vixen There was a refuelling station especially for the helicopters at Utö. Which ran out of fuel about 06:30. Before Y74 could have refuelled there.

9th January 2022, 11:07 AM	#243
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,697	Originally Posted by Vixen From JAIC: "Q 97 (Super Puma) The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97 took off from Visby at 0250 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 0350 hrs. The OSC requested the helicopter to pick up as many people as possible from the sea. On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible." 7.5.5 This was the first 'urgent' helicopter to arrive according to JAIC. Right. And why should we take your inference of what your source's claim about what a newspaper said about what two helicopter crew said over that?

9th January 2022, 11:28 AM	#245
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,697	Originally Posted by Vixen ... This underlines my belief there was a helicopter on the scene, having left just after 0200 (EET) within the standard 15-minute time frame, and as there was no OSC as of that time, it simply took the persons it rescued to Huddinge. I just checked the report again and MRCC Turku designated the master of the Silja Europa to be OSC at 02:05. Even if some undocumented flight had existed which took off from Sweden "just after 02:00" there was no possibility of this helicopter arriving at the location of the sinking before there was an appointed OSC.

9th January 2022, 11:42 AM	#249
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 32,715	Originally Posted by JayUtah You have clearly done so in Björkman's case because you have cited to him on several occasions, some of them recently. If you now propose to unhitch your horse from Björkman, will you now concede he is an unreliable witness on the subject of science and engineering? Will you stop using his material, cited or uncited? Can this finally be decided once and for all? As I've mentioned several times, this thread is lengthy largely because we must have this same discussion over and over again. You disavow a source, and then just days later you're hitched back up to it as if nothing had ever happened. I tend to agree with Mark Corrigan. I see no evidence you plan to stop using Björkman as a source. It seems your plan is simply not to give a citation to him, but to continue using his material uncredited in the hopes that no one will be able to recognize where it's coming from. You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

9th January 2022, 11:45 AM	#250
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 32,715	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge Which ran out of fuel about 06:30. Before Y74 could have refuelled there. Where does it say that? Was that before or after: "At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves."
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

9th January 2022, 11:47 AM	#251
MarkCorrigan ¡No pasarán! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Слава Україні Posts: 11,579	Originally Posted by Vixen You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar. Except you have attempted, regularly, to use him as an authority on naval architecture and buoyancy, so that's also a lie.
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara

9th January 2022, 11:49 AM	#252
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 32,715	Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan Also Vixen, you've still not provided a real world example of a disinformation agent pretending to hold a specific view in order to link it to extremism. You claimed it happens, so provide evidence. If you had studied Eastern Europe as you claim in International Relations, you would know that this was a typical Russian activity, intelligence agencies manipulating the public. One such example is MI5 setting up Combat-18.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

9th January 2022, 11:50 AM	#253
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 32,715	Originally Posted by abaddon Except it was out of fuel. Any idea why it ran out so fast, vixen? Citation please it ran out of fuel.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

9th January 2022, 11:53 AM	#254
MarkCorrigan ¡No pasarán! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Слава Україні Posts: 11,579	Originally Posted by Vixen If you had studied Eastern Europe as you claim in International Relations, you would know that this was a typical Russian activity, intelligence agencies manipulating the public. One such example is MI5 setting up Combat-18. I'm sorry but what? That's just all nonsense. Provide evidence of Russian intelligence agencies pretending to support something in order to associate it with extremism. You still seem to think you can vaguely allude to things and be taken seriously. Provide examples. Secondly not only would the hilighted NOT be an example of what you claimed and what I'm asking you for, but it's not even true! Combat 18 was formed by the BNP in order to provide protection details for it's events from anti0fascist groups. Where on earth did you get the insane idea that MI5 founded it?
	__________________ Naturalism adjusts it's principles to fit with the observed data. It's a god of the facts world view. -joobz When I give food to the poor, they call me a Saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist. - Hélder Câmara Last edited by MarkCorrigan; 9th January 2022 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Clarity

9th January 2022, 11:53 AM	#255
JayUtah Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: The great American West Posts: 22,561	Originally Posted by Vixen You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar. False. You have cited him multiple times as an expert in marine engineering. You continue to use him as an uncredited source. Not only is he "on your radar," you have based large portions of your presentation here on what he says. In the wake of your recent acknowledgement that you are not careful in how you choose your sources, and your recent resolve to be more careful, it seems prudent to revisit your reliance on a witness we know far better than you, and whom you seem utterly incapable of forsaking. If you believe he is not "on your radar," you should have no problem conceding that he is not a recognized expert in any sort of science or engineering, and abiding by a promise never to use his material again, credited or uncredited. Will you do that? Or are we going to have to revisit this again in two weeks or so when you sneak back to his material?

9th January 2022, 11:58 AM	#256
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,576	Originally Posted by abaddon Why on earth would anyone get their news from MTV anyway? "Money for nothing and my chicks for free"!
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

9th January 2022, 11:58 AM	#257
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,697	Originally Posted by Vixen Where does it say that? Was that before or after: "At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves." It's from here: https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt17_1.html#6 "At about 0630 hrs the helicopter fuel supply at Utö ran out. After this, the helicopters flew the survivors and the deceased to Hanko or Nauvo, where refuelling took place. The fuel supply at Hanko, in turn, ran out at about 1000 hrs, and five helicopters had to wait for half an hour for a new supply." Your quotation about the rescue man's flippers is from what the report says about the actions of helicopter Y74. Since it is a quote from a paragraph whose immediately preceding sentence is "At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter" I suggest the flipper incident was soon after 07:15. I think you can probably work out whether 06:30 is before or after 07:15. Actually, your quote is not quite the same as mine: My copy/paste says "because" where your copy/paste says "be- cause". I infer that you are quoting from a secondary source and not the report itself. Perhaps that explains why you didn't know what time the flipper incident happened even though it says so right in the same paragraph.
	Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 9th January 2022 at 12:02 PM.

9th January 2022, 11:59 AM	#258
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 29,715	Originally Posted by Vixen You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar. Then why have you repeatedly used his crackpot ideas about Archimedes' principle/buoyancy/the inevitability of turtling etc. so relentlessly over many weeks? You linked to his work. He is/was very much 'on your radar'. Why lie so brazenly when your words are here in black+white for all to see?
	__________________ "There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury

9th January 2022, 12:01 PM	#259
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge Sources please for what Olsson and Svensson allegedly said. What time did any Swedish helicopter get alerted and by whom? First Swedish helicopter alerted was the Standby RAS helicopter Q97 at Visby. It was a Super Puma. It was on one hour standby. It was alerted at 02:07 by ARCC Arlanda. It was in the air at 02:50 and was on scene at 03:50. It rescued 15 survivors. On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible. After refuelling, Q 97 returned at 0540 hrs to the scene and rescued nine survivors, five from a liferaft and four from the water. They were in very poor condition. The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland. Q 97 landed at a sports field in Hanko at 0735 hrs, and local residents quickly summoned ambulances to the field. The crew was advised to fly to the Hanko coast guard station landing field, where they could refuel. Q 97 took off from Hanko for the accident scene at 0810 hrs and returned to Hanko at 1050 hrs. After refuelling Q 97 returned to its base and finished the mission at 1615 hrs. Notice that the pilot made the decision to fly to Hanko, I suppose he should have been castigated for not following the OSC commands.
	Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 9th January 2022 at 12:03 PM.

9th January 2022, 12:04 PM	#260
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,697	Originally Posted by Vixen Citation please it ran out of fuel. Have you read the report? I mean the report. Not someone else's interpretation.

9th January 2022, 12:04 PM	#261
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,576	Originally Posted by Vixen Where does it say that? Was that before or after: "At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves." Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge It's from here: https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt17_1.html#6 "At about 0630 hrs the helicopter fuel supply at Utö ran out. After this, the helicopters flew the survivors and the deceased to Hanko or Nauvo, where refuelling took place. The fuel supply at Hanko, in turn, ran out at about 1000 hrs, and five helicopters had to wait for half an hour for a new supply." Your quotation about the rescue man's flippers is from what the report says about the actions of helicopter Y74. Since it is a quote from a paragraph whose immediately preceding sentence is "At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter" I suggest the flipper incident was soon after 07:15. I think you can probably work out whether 06:30 is before or after 07:15. Will you look at that Vixen. A link to a reputable source that actually supports what was posted. You should try this sometime. Do it enough times and people just might, maybe, start to take a few of your more sane ideas a little more seriously.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

9th January 2022, 12:05 PM	#262
Reformed Offlian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: USA Posts: 1,105	Originally Posted by Vixen Actually the source Reformed Offlian provided as a wikipedia footnote as to why Kenneth Svensson got the Swedish Defence Forces Gold Medal of Merit with Sword, also seems to quote the same Aftonbladet article. I'd still like to know what you're talking about here. The wiki I recall linking was this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record Which doesn't say anything about Aftonbladet or Svensson. Could you be thinking of a different poster, or a different article?

9th January 2022, 12:06 PM	#263
Reformed Offlian Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: USA Posts: 1,105	Originally Posted by Vixen You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar. Feel free to help us with that fixation by citing any credible, independent source for any of the relevant claims. As long as Bjorkman is your go-to source, your interlocutors are going to keep bringing up his name, especially when your attempts to minimize his role as your authority require such corrective emphasis. Expect a similar outcome with Bollyn.

9th January 2022, 12:10 PM	#264
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,697	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop ... Notice that the pilot made the decision to fly to Hanko, I suppose he should have been castigated for not following the OSC commands. Yes, I saw that and thanks for the extra details. The window of opportunity for Vixen's undocumented flight is pretty well shut. Especially since her explanation of the reason for its secrecy has abandoned any idea that the flight was originally intended to be secret, but rather that it was a straightforward search and rescue flight which just so happened to rescue the 9 officers, and only later in hindsight was it decided to erase all record of it.

9th January 2022, 12:12 PM	#265
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Vixen From JAIC: "Q 97 (Super Puma) The Swedish stand-by helicopter Q 97 took off from Visby at 0250 hrs, arriving at the scene of the accident at 0350 hrs. The OSC requested the helicopter to pick up as many people as possible from the sea. On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible." 7.5.5 This was the first 'urgent' helicopter to arrive according to JAIC. Because at the time the standby for SAR helicopters was one hour. There was a standby SAR already in the air, Q 99, the stand-by helicopter at Ronneby was already on another rescue mission just south of Öland, where it rescued two survivors from a fishing vessel. This mission finished at 0238 hrs. Ordered immediately to proceed to the scene of the accident, Q 99 landed at 0325 hrs at Visby for refuelling and maintenance of equipment and took off from Visby at 0355 hrs, reaching the scene of the accident at 0440 hrs.

9th January 2022, 12:27 PM	#266
Marras Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 416	Originally Posted by abaddon Why on earth would anyone get their news from MTV anyway? MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.
Marras Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 416

9th January 2022, 12:29 PM	#267
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 32,715	Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge It's from here: https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt17_1.html#6 "At about 0630 hrs the helicopter fuel supply at Utö ran out. After this, the helicopters flew the survivors and the deceased to Hanko or Nauvo, where refuelling took place. The fuel supply at Hanko, in turn, ran out at about 1000 hrs, and five helicopters had to wait for half an hour for a new supply." Your quotation about the rescue man's flippers is from what the report says about the actions of helicopter Y74. Since it is a quote from a paragraph whose immediately preceding sentence is "At 0715 hrs Y 74 found a raft with three survivors, who were winched up into the helicopter" I suggest the flipper incident was soon after 07:15. I think you can probably work out whether 06:30 is before or after 07:15. Actually, your quote is not quite the same as mine: My copy/paste says "because" where your copy/paste says "be- cause". I infer that you are quoting from a secondary source and not the report itself. Perhaps that explains why you didn't know what time the flipper incident happened even though it says so right in the same paragraph. It was from the report. Nauvo is just a short journey away from Utö and is between it and Parainen.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

9th January 2022, 12:30 PM	#268
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 32,715	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop First Swedish helicopter alerted was the Standby RAS helicopter Q97 at Visby. It was a Super Puma. It was on one hour standby. It was alerted at 02:07 by ARCC Arlanda. It was in the air at 02:50 and was on scene at 03:50. It rescued 15 survivors. On its first flight Q 97 rescued six survivors from the keels of two upside-down lifeboats. As instructed by the OSC, Q 97 flew them to Utö, where it landed at 0500 hrs. During the stop the crew called ARCC Arlanda, informing about the situation at the scene and asking for as many helicopters as possible. After refuelling, Q 97 returned at 0540 hrs to the scene and rescued nine survivors, five from a liferaft and four from the water. They were in very poor condition. The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland. Q 97 landed at a sports field in Hanko at 0735 hrs, and local residents quickly summoned ambulances to the field. The crew was advised to fly to the Hanko coast guard station landing field, where they could refuel. Q 97 took off from Hanko for the accident scene at 0810 hrs and returned to Hanko at 1050 hrs. After refuelling Q 97 returned to its base and finished the mission at 1615 hrs. Notice that the pilot made the decision to fly to Hanko, I suppose he should have been castigated for not following the OSC commands. Hanko was the OSC designated destination for those with fractures as it has a specialised unit that deals with fractures. Quote: . It was announced this afternoon that no more survivors were coming. A doctor and nurse were sent from Ekenäs to Tulliniemi in Hanko to receive patients brought there by helicopter. They had to assess the condition of the patients on site and send them to the right place of treatment. However, not much could be done. By the time Dr. Jukka Leinonen got to Hanko, 14 live and one dead had been brought there. After that, six more dead people were admitted to the hospital. HS 29.9.1994
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend Last edited by Vixen; 9th January 2022 at 12:33 PM.

9th January 2022, 12:32 PM	#269
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Vixen Where does it say that? Was that before or after: "At one point the rescue man had to be brought up be- cause his flippers had been torn off by the waves." Section 7.5.4 Quote: Maintenance At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there. Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo. At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there. Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites. Have you read the report?
	Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 9th January 2022 at 12:40 PM.

9th January 2022, 12:33 PM	#270
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Vixen Citation please it ran out of fuel. From the report section 7.5.4 Quote: Maintenance At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there. Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo. At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there. Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites.

9th January 2022, 12:35 PM	#271
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 32,715	Originally Posted by Steve Will you look at that Vixen. A link to a reputable source that actually supports what was posted. You should try this sometime. Do it enough times and people just might, maybe, start to take a few of your more sane ideas a little more seriously. You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend

9th January 2022, 12:36 PM	#272
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,499	Originally Posted by Vixen Citation please it ran out of fuel. Sure. JAIC 7.5.4 Quote: Maintenance At 0300 hrs MRCC Turku sent a tank truck to Nauvo to establish a refuelling site for helicopters. Later during the morning a tank truck was also sent to Hanko to replenish the supply there. Utö had a permanent refuelling facility for maritime rescue helicopters. The oil spill exercise that had been conducted during the previous evening had depleted this, however, and a new supply did not arrive until the following day. Meanwhile, the refuelling took place in Hanko and Nauvo. At 1000 hrs the Hanko fuel supply was exhausted and later during the morning a tank truck was sent there. Meals for the helicopter crews had also been arranged at the refuelling sites. Think you can read this reference for a change?
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

9th January 2022, 12:39 PM	#273
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Vixen Hanko was the OSC designated destination for those with fractures as it has a specialised unit that deals with fractures. HS 29.9.1994 Q 97 was the first to arrive. It was the pilot that made the decision. Quote: The pilot decided to take them directly to Hanko on the mainland.

9th January 2022, 12:41 PM	#274
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	Originally Posted by Vixen You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters. Your point being? You do know there was a backup of aircraft waiting for refueling?

9th January 2022, 12:43 PM	#275
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 32,715	Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian I'd still like to know what you're talking about here. The wiki I recall linking was this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_of_record Which doesn't say anything about Aftonbladet or Svensson. Could you be thinking of a different poster, or a different article? What does that have to do with Svensson. The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8. Quote: Ensign Kenneth Svensson, surface rescuer at the sinking of M / S Estonia 27 September 1994, awarded 15 January 1996. [ 8 ] ...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago': Quote: After ten years: No one has forgotten Estonia Ten years after the Estonia disaster. Life has gone on for survivors, relatives and everyone else who was affected. TT has investigated what some of the main characters do today. HEAD OF GOVERNMENT. Carl Bildt, Esko Aho and Mart Laar were heads of government in Sweden, Finland and Estonia at the time of the sinking. On Wednesday afternoon, September 28, 1994, less than a day after the disaster, the three gathered for a joint press conference in Turku. SURFACE RESCUERS. Survivors were a professional group that came into focus during the rescue work. Kenneth Svensson, then ensign at the helicopter division in Berga, is one of these heroes. He rescued eight people from the raging sea, seven of whom survived. "I will never forget the visions I encountered when I went down to those in need," he said afterwards. When the winch for the helicopter got into trouble, he at one point dived into the water without a lifeline to try to save another person in need. Kenneth Svensson was later awarded the Defense Medal of Merit in gold. He still serves as a lifeguard, now at the Malmen helicopter flotilla outside Linköping. (TT) Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.
	__________________ The parting on the Left Is now parting on the Right ~ Pete Townshend