Continuation The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You do know that Nauvo is quite nearby Utö, so just an extra few minutes for the helicopters.

What's your point? That there were places Y74 could refuel closer than Berga? So what? It couldn't replace its exhausted or injured crew at Nauvo.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Quote:

Sweden’s Disappeared: The Search for Justice and the Right to the Truth
Von Susanne Berger

For the Swedish victims of enforced disappearance and their families, the legal Right to the Truth is only meaningful if governments and international courts are committed to its enforcement.

Did you read any further than that?

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

What does that have to do with Svensson.

The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8.

...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago':

Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.

There's nothing at all in there which indicates the Svensson quote is lifted from that day's Aftonbladet. It says "he said afterwards". Anything more is just wishful thinking.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian

Feel free to help us with that fixation by citing any credible, independent source for any of the relevant claims. As long as Bjorkman is your go-to source, your interlocutors are going to keep bringing up his name, especially when your attempts to minimize his role as your authority require such corrective emphasis.

Expect a similar outcome with Bollyn.

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Quote:

Sweden’s Disappeared: The Search for Justice and the Right to the Truth
Von Susanne Berger

For the Swedish victims of enforced disappearance and their families, the legal Right to the Truth is only meaningful if governments and international courts are committed to its enforcement.

That article says nothing at all about Sweden "disappearing" anyone. It claims the Russians did it all, holding some of them in Lubyanka.

Either you did not read it or did not understand it.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Yes, a whole two hours after Estonia disappeared off the radar with >500 stricken Swedish nationals on board.


Captain Swoop: "That's fine."

It is what it is. One hour standby was what was done at the time in Sweden and Finland.
It was on one hour standby, the crew were not on the base, they came from home.
It takes a while to prepare a Super Puma. It was in the air within it's alert time and took an hour flight time.

Finland's standby helicopter OH-HVG, also a Super Puma was alerted first at 01:35.
It was also on a one hour standby, that was standard at the time. It got in to the air at 02:30 and arrived at 03:05. It had less flight time because it eas closer.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Nope. That report does not mention the Egyptians, and discusses Swedes who had been disappeared by the Russians, not people Sweden disappeared.

Are you not reading your sources again?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Marras

MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.

Gosh, one might think that this would be necessary to include. Maybe Vixen is simply unaware of what everyone understands MTV to be. It makes no material difference, though. Either way, Vixen has contradicted her own claims.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

What does that have to do with Svensson.

The article you linked was from here, footnote no. 8.

Are you talking about the TT writeup or are we talking about a wikipedia article?

Quote:

...which seems to quote directly from that earlier Aftonbladet article 'ten years ago':

The Aftonblad article doesn't say that Svensson retrieved seven survivors and one dead body. The JAIC report does.

Quote:

Either that or the TT draws on the JAIC, which draws on the Aftonbladet article.

Ah, so you're referring to the TT article, not a wiki.

The JAIC draws on the Aftonblad article? Really? Why would you assume that?

The only people drawing on the article in question are you and Bjorkman.

Where does Aftonbladet say that Svensson rescued exactly seven people?
Neither you nor Bjorkman got that number from it.

I thought the JAIC only credited Svensson with one rescue?

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

About Swedish subjects being disappeared by another country.

Do you have any other sources saying the Egyptians who were deported in 2002 were disappeared?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by abaddon

That article says nothing at all about Sweden "disappearing" anyone. It claims the Russians did it all, holding some of them in Lubyanka.

Not entirely the Russians: there are also Swedes disappeared by the Argentines, Eritreans, Chinese security forces in Thailand, and Al-Qaida. The Swedish government evidently has a longer reach than any of us imagined.

Quote:

Either you did not read it or did not understand it.

Or just hopes that we won’t read it.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Marras

MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.

Remarkably, having mistaken it for whichever MTV she means, Vixen managed to correctly identify it when she originally posted the link:

Originally Posted by Vixen

Here is a Finnish newspaper for a start: MV Lehti

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Mojo

Not entirely the Russians: there are also Swedes disappeared by the Argentines, Eritreans, Chinese security forces in Thailand, and Al-Qaida. The Swedish government evidently has a longer reach than any of us imagined.

Sure. I was just lazy. The problem here is that Vixen reads "Swedish disappeared" and thinks it refers to "people disappeared by the Swedes" when it, in fact, it refers to "Swedish people who have been disappeared by others". And she cannot work that out for some reason.

Originally Posted by Mojo

Or just hopes that we won’t read it.

This style of thing happens quite often. Read the headline and the byline, then assume the rest of the article must agree with whatever the CT du jour is being proposed.

When attentive people actually read the whole article, as Corporal Jones would say, they don't like it up 'em.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Sure. I was just lazy. The problem here is that Vixen reads "Swedish disappeared" and thinks it refers to "people disappeared by the Swedes" when it, in fact, it refers to "Swedish people who have been disappeared by others". And she cannot work that out for some reason.

This style of thing happens quite often. Read the headline and the byline, then assume the rest of the article must agree with whatever the CT du jour is being proposed.

When attentive people actually read the whole article, as Corporal Jones would say, they don't like it up 'em.

Yes, I noticed that with regards to the “Through German Eyes” column that was cited as the source for the claim that the Times had embedded reporters eavesdropping on German soldiers at the battle of Stalingrad. You only needed to read beyond the headline for it to become obvious that it was a round-up of the German media, not first-hand reports by reporters on the ground.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Your assumption is incorrect. Swedish helicopters dropped off their survivors at Utö. AFAIAA only one helicopter carrying nine and apparently one carrying one, went direct to Huddinge.

One guy named Altti, who lives in Stockholm, says he was in one of those helicopters, although not put on the list. He says the helicopter stopped in an airfield and all kinds of weird things went on.

Helsingin Sanomat 1.10.1994 reported Danish and Swedish newspapers saying Piht had gone missing from a Helsinki hospital. That makes sense, as he may have travelled with Bildt, Aho and Laar (the Prime Ministers of Sweden, Finland and Estonia) when they flew to Turku to interview Sillaste (and probably Piht, too) and Piht then flew to Helsinki, on the same plane as them, where the JAIC was set up.

HS

Vixen. For god's sake, STOP USING NEWSPAPER REPORTS FROM THE FIRST DAY(S) AFTER THE DISASTER AS SOME SORT OF RELIABLE SOURCE OF INFORMATION.

Do you even comprehend why I'm saying this? Do you have an ounce of intellectual honesty?

Why do you keep doing this, Vixen? Do you actually care about having a proper, well-informed debate? When you keep going back to these newspaper reports from days 1-5 following the accident, it's clear that either a) you genuinely (still) have no idea how/why those reports cannot be trusted to be reliable, or b) you do understand this, yet continue in your attempts to misdirect. There is no third option. So which of those two is it, Vixen?

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I didn't register the author nor did I know who he was.

So from where did you get the notion related to the Egyptians, Vixen?

Because it's a racing certainty that you didn't come up with it all by yourself.

So you gleaned it from some source, didn't you?

And which source was it?

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Who knows what the truth is about this person. Fact is I am not interested in the cult of personality. Full stop.

What the hell has this to do with the "cult of personality".

It is entirely to do with 1) some crackpot deciding that those Egyptians were "disappeared" by Sweden (when in fact Sweden did nothing of the sort), and 2) you finding what this someone had written, and assimilating it into your own crazy theory.

So, once again: who was your source wrt the Egyptians, their "disappearance" (not), and the notion that this serves as some sort of template for Sweden to have "disappeared" the Estonians (not)?

Why will you not answer this question, VIxen?

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

How convenient that there isn't any evidence for the claims, it has all mysteriously disappeared, even the claimed German reports were seized by German security forces.

How far does this conspiracy run? Why wasn't the seizing of news footage by the 'security forces' reported in Germany, it would be a big scandal if they were acting on behalf of a foreign government to sensor German news organisations.

It's absolutely pitiful, isn't it?

Funny how it's always the most ridiculous CTs which are "supported" by this sort of thing - "Lots of people remember hearing that....", "A radio/TV station is said to have reported that....", "Someone was overheard saying that...." - where there's no actual tangible evidence backing up those claims.

See: most reasonable, intellectually-honest people - even if they held opinions bordering on CTs - would look at this sort of "evidence" and rather easily conclude, at the very least, that it was in fact no evidence at all. And they would then start to question whether the conclusions to which this "evidence" pertains can actually stand up at all.

Not Vixen, though.........

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

He denied in court he was ever editor-in-chief of that paper.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

And Ian Huntley denied in court that he'd killed those two young girls.

Your attempts here are pitiful, laughable and ridiculous.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Steve

"Money for nothing and my chicks for free"!

God I am old enough to have bought that single.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

In this context, the idea that one idealised person is the possessor of some kind of esoteric knowledge; his or her followers lap up every word like pearls of wisdom which they can quote like shining drops of molten gold off by heart, whenever the occasion demands it.

The idea that I am a follower of some not-even-particularly bright or literate person is just so funny.

Well, absolutely. Seeing as how your contributions to this thread have been bristling with intelligence and information-literacy........

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Any decision that has been before a court of law is in the public domain (with a few exceptions, such as a Family Court).

Why do you believe that only Bollyn (in 2012) is the only person who could have known about the two Egyptians?

Well, seeing as the court ruling had nothing whatsoever to do with Sweden "disappearing" anyone....

So, Vixen: from whom/where did you get the notion that Sweden "disappeared" those two Egyptians (which you and your source are both using to suggest that Sweden was capable of "disappearing" the Estonians as well)?

And why are you continuing to lie about it?

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Utter rot. Now that Spitfire has pointed out that Bollyn has a deluded idea that there is a granfalloon group of people who are running the world, bringing down Christianity and mocking up terror attacks, such as 9/11, I will obviously avoid him like the plague from now on.

***Laughing dog emoji x3***

Are you incapable of evaluating sources properly - especially where these sources are a) previously unknown to you and b) well outside the normal scope of trusted sources - before considering them credible/reliable?

Or do you always require others to do that due diligence work for you (when those others are doing nothing more than the work you yourself could & should have done up-front)?

Pathetic. Truly, deeply pathetic on your part, Vixen.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Has anyone ever seen the Pope and Johnathan Price in the same room together?

That is the level of "argument" you have sunk to, Vixen. Bollyn and Bjorkman don't even look alike.

Oh, I think that Vixen's "in the same room" gambit was an attempt to demonstrate that she shares the same low opinion about untrustworthy sources as the decent, rigorous, intellectually-honest posters in this thread.

As an attempt to misdirect about her own use of those two people as trustworthy sources.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I see nothing wrong with critiquing the Middle East: pro-Israel, pro-Palestine <shrug>. However, to actually believe there is a conspiracy to bombard the Christian world with pornography is just plain bonkers.

I disagree that the issue of the two Egyptians is Bollyn's copyrighted work. He doesn't have ownership of the news. I am not sure what his motive is, an American (?) guy getting involved in the Estonia disaster. I can only imagine it is the neo-fascist strategy of infiltrating various protest groups and inveigling themselves like cuckoo's eggs. For example, there was a lot of ant-vaxxer protesters in London, a vague meeting of disparate groups and individuals, so course, the far right was in there pretending to be one of them, deliberately causing trouble with the police and agitating civil unrest.

So who/what was your source for the nonsense about Sweden "disappearing" those Egyptians, Vixen?

And why do you keep lying about it?

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I mistook it for an ordinary newspaper because that is what it looks like when you click on it.

*runs out of laughing dog emojis*

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Absolutely. Reads like an Anders Brevik manisfesto, except instead of Muslims, we have Jews.

So why did you reflexively dispute the notion that Bollyn held disgusting anti-Semitic views..... when you could have found this information for yourself incredibly easily?

Well, Vixen: why? And why do you keep lying about relying on Bollyn as a trusted source re the Egyptians (or, at worst, relying on someone who themselves relies on Bollyn)?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Mojo

Yes, I noticed that with regards to the “Through German Eyes” column that was cited as the source for the claim that the Times had embedded reporters eavesdropping on German soldiers at the battle of Stalingrad. You only needed to read beyond the headline for it to become obvious that it was a round-up of the German media, not first-hand reports by reporters on the ground.

I must be honest. I have lost the will to chase the random links provided anymore. It just is not worth the effort.

Outright mockery seems the way to go. I have already wasted more time on the nonsense than I should to the point that I don't care anymore.

What annoys me the most is that our proponent will faithfully promise not to cite Byjorkman or Bollyn ever again. We all know our proponent will, but will merely leave out the names as if that makes some difference. As though nobody could tell.

That is absurd. Does there exist anyone who is unaware what MTV actually is?

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I would never rely on the call of a crowd who often are just a baying mob who enjoy the sport of chasing someone down. It's like being lost and then following the crowd thinking they are going the same way and then discovering they were not at all.

Wait. So, what? You believe people would tell you lies (and conspire with others to tell lies) about things like this, simply because they hold an opposite position in the debate from you, and that they'll resort to any and all means - including dishonest means - in an attempt to contradict or discredit you???

Astonishing, and disgusting. And I strongly suspect that in fact, this reflects the way in which you choose to conduct debate.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Marras

MTV in this context is "Mainos-TV", the oldest commercial TV station in Finland that nowadays has also a news service on the internet.

And I will give you kudos for telling me something I never knew, and had no reason to do so. I thank you.

Not sure Vixen is too happy about your presence in this thread, but we shall have to find that as we go.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

It showed that the two Egyptians' plight was in the public domain.

God almighty, Vixen.

Of course the Egyptians' plight was "in the public domain".

But the Egyptians' plight was not the plight that you and your source claim.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You have mentioned the 'B' name SEVEN times within the last page. You are fixated by someone who doesn't even register on my radar.

That's a lie, Vixen.

[LondonJohn]

Originally Posted by Steve

"Money for nothing and my chicks for free"!

Maybe Vixen took the "That ain't working" line as a tacit instruction not to do any work understanding/evaluating her key sources for reliability, credibility and honesty?

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Bollyn was not the first to draw attention to Sweden's so-called 'disappeared'. It has been a meme in that country for a long time.

Here is an article reproduced from Svenska Dagbladet on June 20, 2017:

Bollyn's article dates from January 22, 2005. He hasn't even been active since 2007, AFAICT. What earlier source do you have for the claim that Sweden disappeared the two Egyptian deportees?

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Utter rot. Now that Spitfire has pointed out that Bollyn has a deluded idea that there is a granfalloon group of people who are running the world, bringing down Christianity and mocking up terror attacks, such as 9/11, I will obviously avoid him like the plague from now on.

Having disavowed Bollyn, what other, independent source do you now have left for the claim that Sweden engaged in enforced disappearance when they deported the two Egyptians in 2002?

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Vixen

He was supposedly seen in an ambulance with the Huddinge code on it (supplied by a Russian tv company, so not sure how authentic that is) and also was seen getting out of an ambulance at Turku hospital. Lots of people saw this and recognised Piht. He was described as being the fourth person getting out. When researchers searched the news archives, it was found the picture suddenly now cut off just as the fourth person was getting out.

No.

This was just covered. Nobody involved with the rescue saw Piht. Some Germany watching a video said he saw Piht, and it became a rumor that continued to be reported as true for a period of time until the record was solid. So not, nobody saw him.

The best parallel is the Jessica Lynch fiasco wherein a reporter with the Miami Herald based in a CENTCOM press-pool in Kuwait quoted a back-channel source who told him she had been captured after fighting it out with Iraqi soldiers. Later, Stars & Stripes corrected the story, and reported she had been knocked unconscious when her vehicle rear-ended the one in front of it, and the soldier shooting it out with the Iraqis was some other dude in her unit.

All that has to happen is to have a "reliable source" report something as fact, and the other news services will run with it without double-checking. Piht was not rescued.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Er, the story of Piht's disappearance has been running since 1994. Did you not see the James Meek or the Colin Adamson citations from British newspapers of the day?

Yes, and it's been wrong since 1994.

The big question would be why keep his rescue secret?

He wasn't in command of the Estonia that night. If I had to guess his fate, I like to think he was doing his best to help out.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

No.

This was just covered. Nobody involved with the rescue saw Piht. Some Germany watching a video said he saw Piht, and it became a rumor that continued to be reported as true for a period of time until the record was solid. So not, nobody saw him.

The best parallel is the Jessica Lynch fiasco wherein a reporter with the Miami Herald based in a CENTCOM press-pool in Kuwait quoted a back-channel source who told him she had been captured after fighting it out with Iraqi soldiers. Later, Stars & Stripes corrected the story, and reported she had been knocked unconscious when her vehicle rear-ended the one in front of it, and the soldier shooting it out with the Iraqis was some other dude in her unit.

All that has to happen is to have a "reliable source" report something as fact, and the other news services will run with it without double-checking. Piht was not rescued.

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

Quote:

In its report of 19 December 2006, the Estonian Parliamentary Commission recommended that the fate of the missing Estonians be investigated further. From their report, Chapter VII:

"3. Proceeding from the fact that several persons who allegedly survived the catastrophe of the ferry Estonia are still missing, and taking into account the fact that they might have important information concerning the ferry Estonia, propose to the Government of the Republic to continue the search for these persons. "

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I have not hitched my horse to any cart.

You have hitched your horse to a conspiracy theory that says the Estonia was not sunk by accident when the bow visor was knocked off in rough seas, but was sunk either by an act of sabotage, or after a collision with a submarine.

These theories have been advanced by a disgraced German reporter, with help from a marketing wing of a German ship-building company. This new investigation is based on the "discovery" of a rupture in the hull made by a "documentary film maker" on an expedition to "reveal the truth". This film maker is advancing the conspiracy theory, the proof is the footage of the fracture in the hull - he cropped it. He obviously edited out the images of the rocky outcrop from the final piece because it would have been obvious that the rupture was caused by impact with the sea floor.

For some reason you need the MS Estonia to have been sunk as a result of some dark conspiracy involving Bildt, and Clinton, and other western powers. And for some reason you need it badly enough to fill pages on this message board with poorly researched points of view, and very few facts to support them.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

It is what it is. One hour standby was what was done at the time in Sweden and Finland.
It was on one hour standby, the crew were not on the base, they came from home.
It takes a while to prepare a Super Puma. It was in the air within it's alert time and took an hour flight time.

Finland's standby helicopter OH-HVG, also a Super Puma was alerted first at 01:35.
It was also on a one hour standby, that was standard at the time. It got in to the air at 02:30 and arrived at 03:05. It had less flight time because it eas closer.

You are incorrect here. The protocol (today and yesterday) is fifteen minutes for the initial helicopter/s.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Sure. I was just lazy. The problem here is that Vixen reads "Swedish disappeared" and thinks it refers to "people disappeared by the Swedes" when it, in fact, it refers to "Swedish people who have been disappeared by others". And she cannot work that out for some reason.

This style of thing happens quite often. Read the headline and the byline, then assume the rest of the article must agree with whatever the CT du jour is being proposed.

When attentive people actually read the whole article, as Corporal Jones would say, they don't like it up 'em.

No. The Swedish intelligence forces knew where those downed airmen from 1952 were all along. The were in Swedish waters, just east of Gotland.

No flannel please about gulags and Russian territory.