Continuation The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part V

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

What the hell has this to do with the "cult of personality".

It is entirely to do with 1) some crackpot deciding that those Egyptians were "disappeared" by Sweden (when in fact Sweden did nothing of the sort), and 2) you finding what this someone had written, and assimilating it into your own crazy theory.

So, once again: who was your source wrt the Egyptians, their "disappearance" (not), and the notion that this serves as some sort of template for Sweden to have "disappeared" the Estonians (not)?

Why will you not answer this question, VIxen?

Can you remember how you found out Elvis had died? Name and date of the media.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You are incorrect here. The protocol (today and yesterday) is fifteen minutes for the initial helicopter/s.

No, the standby time when Estonia sank was one hour in both Sweden and Finland.

Repeating your claim will not make it right.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

So why did you reflexively dispute the notion that Bollyn held disgusting anti-Semitic views..... when you could have found this information for yourself incredibly easily?

Well, Vixen: why? And why do you keep lying about relying on Bollyn as a trusted source re the Egyptians (or, at worst, relying on someone who themselves relies on Bollyn)?

Investigative journalists often get smeared in order to discredit them for finding out the truth.

Look at scientist Dr David Kelly. Dared to say there were no WMD's.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

And?

They've had 16 years to investigate this issue. What have they found? They have their own police force and their own intelligence agency, are you telling us that they've found nothing?

Hold that thought.

Funny thing, in 1976, the US Congress created theHouse Select Committee on Assassinations to take another look at the JFK and MLK assassinations. In the end they found nothing conclusive and made some rumors worse.

It gets better...

In 2007, Senator Harry Reid secured funding for an investigation into UFOs.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Squeaky wheels get the grease. Just because a small group thinks something happened doesn't mean it happened. The man went down with the ship. End of story.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Can you remember how you found out Elvis had died? Name and date of the media.

NBC News, the day it happened. John Chancellor broke into the soap opera to make the announcement.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Can you remember how you found out Elvis had died? Name and date of the media.

BBC Radio One news, 16th August 1977 on the day he died.
We were camping in a field at Newton Mulgrave just by the farm on Newton Lane off the Hinderwell to Whitby coast road.
I can’t remember the name of the farm but we had just bought a jug of milk off them from the cooler in the milking barn, fresh from the cow.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Axxman300

You have hitched your horse to a conspiracy theory that says the Estonia was not sunk by accident when the bow visor was knocked off in rough seas, but was sunk either by an act of sabotage, or after a collision with a submarine.

These theories have been advanced by a disgraced German reporter, with help from a marketing wing of a German ship-building company. This new investigation is based on the "discovery" of a rupture in the hull made by a "documentary film maker" on an expedition to "reveal the truth". This film maker is advancing the conspiracy theory, the proof is the footage of the fracture in the hull - he cropped it. He obviously edited out the images of the rocky outcrop from the final piece because it would have been obvious that the rupture was caused by impact with the sea floor.

For some reason you need the MS Estonia to have been sunk as a result of some dark conspiracy involving Bildt, and Clinton, and other western powers. And for some reason you need it badly enough to fill pages on this message board with poorly researched points of view, and very few facts to support them.

Jutta Rabe is not disgraced at all. She lost her job and was menaced and threatened for daring to investigate. Good journalists tend to be nosey and want to find out what is being kept secret, like Henrik Evertsson, for example, or John Pilger, or Paul Foot. They are not always right but their heart is in the right place.

I thought Baltic Storm was an interesting take, but pure fiction. But then I began to look into this case more, and the more I found out, the more horrified I was to realise that Baltic Storm is actually more a fictitionalised documentary than a fiction film. Horrifying true in essence.

I believe Baltic Storm is banned in Sweden.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Vixen

No. The Swedish intelligence forces knew where those downed airmen from 1952 were all along. The were in Swedish waters, just east of Gotland.

No flannel please about gulags and Russian territory.

But Sweden did not disappear them, which is your claim, remember?

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

I'm sorry but what?

That's just all nonsense. Provide evidence of Russian intelligence agencies pretending to support something in order to associate it with extremism. You still seem to think you can vaguely allude to things and be taken seriously. Provide examples.

Secondly not only would the hilighted NOT be an example of what you claimed and what I'm asking you for, but it's not even true! Combat 18 was formed by the BNP in order to provide protection details for it's events from anti0fascist groups.

Where on earth did you get the insane idea that MI5 founded it?

Also please deal with the above.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Jutta Rabe is not disgraced at all. She lost her job and was menaced and threatened for daring to investigate. Good journalists tend to be nosey and want to find out what is being kept secret, like Henrik Evertsson, for example, or John Pilger, or Paul Foot. They are not always right but their heart is in the right place.

I thought Baltic Storm was an interesting take, but pure fiction. But then I began to look into this case more, and the more I found out, the more horrified I was to realise that Baltic Storm is actually more a fictitionalised documentary than a fiction film. Horrifying true in essence.

I believe Baltic Storm is banned in Sweden.

Jutta Rabe seems to think that a German news company had one of its reports about the cover up of the Estonia crew being kidnapped seized by ‘security forces’ to suppress it.
She also claims to have seen Swedish flight logs for the helicopter crew that contain the names of the missing crew.

Bonkers.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I believe Baltic Storm is banned in Sweden.

Do you have any evidence to support this belief?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

But Sweden did not disappear them, which is your claim, remember?

The families not knowing the fate of their loved ones was a 'disappearing' of them and they had to live with that uncertainty for forty years.

People spend a life time looking for a missing person.

Far kinder to give them closure and just tell them one of their own was killed in action. No massive detail needs to be given.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Jutta Rabe is not disgraced at all. She lost her job and was menaced and threatened for daring to investigate. Good journalists tend to be nosey and want to find out what is being kept secret, like Henrik Evertsson, for example, or John Pilger, or Paul Foot. They are not always right but their heart is in the right place.

I thought Baltic Storm was an interesting take, but pure fiction. But then I began to look into this case more, and the more I found out, the more horrified I was to realise that Baltic Storm is actually more a fictitionalised documentary than a fiction film. Horrifying true in essence.

I believe Baltic Storm is banned in Sweden.

You believe wrong, as usual.

However the director did ban Swedish journalists from the debut screening.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The families not knowing the fate of their loved ones was a 'disappearing' of them and they had to live with that uncertainty for forty years.

People spend a life time looking for a missing person.

Far kinder to give them closure and just tell them one of their own was killed in action. No massive detail needs to be given.

No it isn't. Stop attempting to obfuscate what enforced disappearance means.

There is, as you have pointed out yourself, a legal definition of enforced disappearance. Nothing you have mentioned comes close to meeting that definition.

Words have meaning Vixen, no matter how much you wish they could mean whatever you want them to mean.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Also please deal with the above.

They were infiltrated.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

They were infiltrated.

Who? combat 18?
So they weren’t founded by MI5?

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Jutta Rabe seems to think that a German news company had one of its reports about the cover up of the Estonia crew being kidnapped seized by ‘security forces’ to suppress it.
She also claims to have seen Swedish flight logs for the helicopter crew that contain the names of the missing crew.

Bonkers.

You forget, she was a high profile journalist privy to insider information.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

Who? combat 18?
So they weren’t founded by MI5?

They were infiltrated by Ray Hill.

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You forget, she was a high profile journalist privy to insider information.

So where is her evidence to support the claims?
How do you know she was ‘privy to insider information’?

Do you really think the German government collaborated with Sweden to suppress a story and seize materials relating to the Estonia officers kidnapping?

Do you really think aircrew flight logs list names of people rescued and she had access to these logs on a Swedish air base?

[Captain_Swoop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

They were infiltrated by Ray Hill.

So they weren’t founded by MI5?

[BazBear]

Originally Posted by Vixen

I believe Baltic Storm is banned in Sweden.

Wrong again.

https://variety.com/2004/film/review...rm-1200534380/

Quote:

The real-life 1994 sinking of the ferry M/S Estonia in the Baltic Sea, which claimed 852 lives, has been turned into a standard conspiracy thriller in English-lingo German feature “Baltic Storm.” Controversial during production, pic finally opened in a couple of Swedish cinemas in February, to negative reviews and lackluster B.O., paralleling its opening in Germany last October. For Anglo markets, the only hook is the presence of names like Greta Scacchi and Donald Sutherland, with TV its likeliest avenue.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by Vixen

They were infiltrated by Ray Hill.

Nope. Ray Hill never infiltrated Combat 18, and even if he had that doesn't in any way shape or form answer my question.

Stop obfuscating, you're terrible at it and it's highly dishonest.

[junkshop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

...One such example is MI5 setting up Combat-18.

Originally Posted by Vixen

They were infiltrated by Ray Hill.

The latter does not equal the former. Do you accept that your first claim was untrue, and retract it?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

But Sweden did not disappear them, which is your claim, remember?

Oh you have to pay attention. Tomorrow the claims will be entirely different. It matters not to the proponent.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

This is just a recommendation by a commission. How did the decision makers actually respond?

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Can you remember how you found out Elvis had died? Name and date of the media.

No one is quizzing you to see what you can remember off the top of your head. Your audience's lack of trust in your offhand recollections is part of the issue.

The other posters here already have a good idea where you got the idea that the Egyptians deported by Sweden in 2002 were disappeared; you inadvertently told us yourself. You don't seem to appreciate how recognizable certain CT canards are to people used to confronting them. It's up to you to prove otherwise at this point.

Either you have a non-Bollyn-adjacent source supporting your claim that the Egyptian's deportations were a case of enforced disappearance or you don't.

If you do, pray do tell. If you don't, admit it so that we can put this toxic talking point in the bin with all the other CT trash.

[Reformed Offlian]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Investigative journalists often get smeared in order to discredit them for finding out the truth.

Look at scientist Dr David Kelly. Dared to say there were no WMD's.

Dr. Kelly wasn't an investigative journalist. The journalist who covered him, Andrew Gilligan, remained a successful and respected, if sometimes controversial, member of his profession.

[Axxman300]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You forget, she was a high profile journalist privy to insider information.

You forget that nobody with an important job willingly talks to journalists unless they need to spin something.

You also forget she has never proven any of her charges about the Estonia being sunk by the Russians. She's not the first journalist to be disgraced by their own hubris.

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The Swedes have the cheek to call Utö, Finska Utö as though theirs is the real one.

By the way, this post is yet again a good example of Vixen's need to denigrate Sweden and the Swedish.

The name "Utö" is Swedish and it means simply "Outer Island". There are at least two Utös in Finland (and I strongly suspect there are more). I suspect that there are several in Sweden in addition to the most famous one next to Stockholm but haven't checked. They are all place names and there's absolutely no reason to consider any of them "the real one". They all are real places with that name. The Finnish island has a Swedish name because it is in an area that has been populated by Swedish-speaking people since before the start of recorded history. (Which starts quite late in Finland).

The documented history of the more famous Finnish Utö starts at 1540s. There are claims that a pile of rocks was built there as a sea sign already in the 9th century, but I personally find that claim a bit dubious. I didn't go digging through the sources to see who proposed that, when, why, and based on what evidence. Quite a few internet sites mention it as an established fact. It may be true, but I need some convincing before I accept that.

On the other hand, the Utö next to Stockholm has documented history going to several hundreds of years earlier. It is mentioned by that name in the Danish Itinerary that was written in the 13th century (probably sometime between 1240-90). The itinerary doesn't mention the Finnish Utö and we shouldn't really expect it to mention it because the sailing route that it describes goes well North of the island, from Kökar to Aspö.

The Stockholm Utö was mentioned earlier than the Finnish one, it got permanent population before the Finnish one, and it now has far more inhabitants than the Finnish Utö. I don't see any reason why it would be less "real" than the Finnish one.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Investigative journalists often get smeared in order to discredit them for finding out the truth.



Look at scientist Dr David Kelly. Dared to say there were no WMD's.

Very bad example. Kelly killed himself after a journalist essentially threw him under the bus as the source of a leak that the government's view on WMDs was baseless.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

An Estonian radio station claims to have interviewed Svensson, who seemed only too eager to let the world know, and that he said in the interview that he had rescued Avo Piht. He even said Piht came from Hiumaa, an island off Estonia, which surely, only Piht himself could have told him that.

Originally Posted by Mojo

This really needs a citation or link, but it might be a bit more credible if it was a named Estonian radio station, rather than just one that goes to a different school.

Originally Posted by Vixen

Radio Kuku, 28.9.1994.

What is your source for this?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

Note the word “allegedly”.

[junkshop]

Originally Posted by Vixen

...One such example is MI5 setting up Combat-18.

Originally Posted by Vixen

They were infiltrated by Ray Hill.

Originally Posted by junkshop

The latter does not equal the former. Do you accept that your first claim was untrue, and retract it?

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Nope. Ray Hill never infiltrated Combat 18...

My apologies Vixen,
I see now that both statements are equal. They are equally untrue. Do you accept that both of your claims are untrue, and retract them?



I won't hold my breath.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

So where is her evidence to support the claims?
How do you know she was ‘privy to insider information’?

Do you really think the German government collaborated with Sweden to suppress a story and seize materials relating to the Estonia officers kidnapping?

Do you really think aircrew flight logs list names of people rescued and she had access to these logs on a Swedish air base?

There are plenty of whistleblowers.

Germany never signed the treaty.

Intelligence agencies do cooperate with each other if a request is made.

[Marras]

Originally Posted by Vixen

There are plenty of whistleblowers.

Germany never signed the treaty.

Intelligence agencies do cooperate with each other if a request is made.

According to the ever unreliable Wikipedia five German citizens died in Estonia.

Why did the German intelligence agencies agree to help Sweden in covering up their murder?

[zooterkin]

Originally Posted by Vixen

There are plenty of whistleblowers.

Germany never signed the treaty.

Intelligence agencies do cooperate with each other if a request is made.

No evidence, then.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Vixen

The Estonian government officials believes the Estonians as originally listed to be 'missing':

That doesn't mean they believe them to be alive. It doesn't even mean they suspect they survived the sinking. At best it means they're not declaring them to be presumed dead.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Marras

By the way, this post is yet again a good example of Vixen's need to denigrate Sweden and the Swedish.

The name "Utö" is Swedish and it means simply "Outer Island". There are at least two Utös in Finland (and I strongly suspect there are more). I suspect that there are several in Sweden in addition to the most famous one next to Stockholm but haven't checked. They are all place names and there's absolutely no reason to consider any of them "the real one". They all are real places with that name. The Finnish island has a Swedish name because it is in an area that has been populated by Swedish-speaking people since before the start of recorded history. (Which starts quite late in Finland).

The documented history of the more famous Finnish Utö starts at 1540s. There are claims that a pile of rocks was built there as a sea sign already in the 9th century, but I personally find that claim a bit dubious. I didn't go digging through the sources to see who proposed that, when, why, and based on what evidence. Quite a few internet sites mention it as an established fact. It may be true, but I need some convincing before I accept that.

On the other hand, the Utö next to Stockholm has documented history going to several hundreds of years earlier. It is mentioned by that name in the Danish Itinerary that was written in the 13th century (probably sometime between 1240-90). The itinerary doesn't mention the Finnish Utö and we shouldn't really expect it to mention it because the sailing route that it describes goes well North of the island, from Kökar to Aspö.

The Stockholm Utö was mentioned earlier than the Finnish one, it got permanent population before the Finnish one, and it now has far more inhabitants than the Finnish Utö. I don't see any reason why it would be less "real" than the Finnish one.

Thanks for the information. However, I was being tongue-in-cheek. My fifth great grandmother was a listed Swedish noble. Thus, I have zero motivation to 'denigrate Sweden and the Swedish'. Your ad hominem claim is a preposterous one, based on zero justification.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by junkshop

My apologies Vixen,
I see now that both statements are equal. They are equally untrue. Do you accept that both of your claims are untrue, and retract them?



I won't hold my breath.

You obviously do not know the story and I am not going to enlighten you as it has little to do with this topic, other than as an example for Mark Corrigan, who claims to have never heard of 'disinformation' or how it works and who thus asked for one.

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by Marras

According to the ever unreliable Wikipedia five German citizens died in Estonia.

Why did the German intelligence agencies agree to help Sweden in covering up their murder?

My theory is that the West (Bildt, Clinton, et al) feared that a face-off with Russia would see Russian troops using it as an excuse to reinvade Estonia. Sensitive political situation. Sweden for the CIA smuiggling Russian state secrets, the Russians warning the intelligence agencies to stop doing it and then exacting ruthless revenge when ignored. Why else would Sweden immediately cover it up, and th e UK sign a Baltic treaty, when it is nowhere near the Baltic.

Note how Russia exhumed every single one of the dead 97 Russian sailors in the Kursk disaster, at a much deeper and more difficult location than Estonia.