The DeSantis gambit

Venom · 11th November 2022, 02:09 PM

If you regard Donald Trump as a uniquely toxic and dangerous threat to the nation, should we starting considering backing Ron DeSantis? He's currently gaining approval among establishment Republicans and major media outlets, provoking the ire of Trump and much of his base. I've also seen many other MAGA people sharply criticize the former president after he introduced DeSantis' new nickname at a Pennsylvania rally last week.

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I AGREE

And the grumblings grew louder after Trump doubled down on his attacks the day after the midterms on Truth Social.

I regard DeSantis as another shameless buffoon. He's done three things that have caught my eye recently though. He's put in work to protect the environment and natural resources of Florida, raised minimum teacher pay, and backed candidates not aligned with Trump. These are things the rightwing base do not normally crusade for. And IMO they provide an opening for liberals and Never-Trumpers to ingratiate themselves with the DeSantis coalition as it may turn out to be.

This I think could backfire if DeSantis decides not to run and backs Trump; he's 44 and he may feel he has plenty of time. It could also backfire if the establishment cannot or will not reign him in and he goes full Trumpist once in power. But I think if there's any opportunity to create a wedge within the Republican power structure, if only to take away a single-digit slice of the general election numbers in 2024, it's now.

Chris_Halkides · 11th November 2022, 02:29 PM

Governor DeSantis appointed Dr. Joseph Ladapo as Surgeon General of Florida, who is a crank when it comes to Covid-19 vaccines. Link1 Link2. Enough said, because I don't want this to become a derail.

bruto · 11th November 2022, 03:32 PM

I sort of get the point of the OP, but "should we start considering backing" seems a bit excessive. To be not as bad as Trump requires little virtue.

Venom · 11th November 2022, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

I sort of get the point of the OP, but "should we start considering backing" seems a bit excessive. To be not as bad as Trump requires little virtue.

Just to get the man over the initial ********* Trump will throw at him. It could also possibly hurt DeSantis to be pictured shaking hands with Radical Leftists and RINOs.

Brainster · 11th November 2022, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

Just to get the man over the initial ********* Trump will throw at him. It could also possibly hurt DeSantis to be pictured shaking hands with Radical Leftists and RINOs.

Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists?

Trebuchet · 11th November 2022, 04:10 PM

I actually think that since DeSantis may be both slightly more aware of reality, and more of an actual believer in his "cause", DeSantis may well be MORE dangerous to the USA than Trump.

Trebuchet · 11th November 2022, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists?

"Radical Leftist" = Anyone Trump doesn't like this week.

Venom · 11th November 2022, 04:34 PM

Or...Trump is trying to draw out fake MAGA with this cunning ploy!

Lurch · 11th November 2022, 08:23 PM

If something is retruthed does that make it truthier?

bruto · 11th November 2022, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Lurch

If something is retruthed does that make it truthier?

I assume Trump needs retruthing from time to time because he leaks.

Norman Alexander · 11th November 2022, 11:01 PM

They are both toxic piles of ****. DeSantis is supposed to be much smarter but doesn't show it. Trump is clinically insane and does. Neither is in any way desirable anywhere near government.

Puppycow · 12th November 2022, 02:35 AM

The only thing I'm hoping for is that DeSantis runs because then Trump (and DeSantis) will have a nasty fight for the nomination, and Trump won't be able to just receive it on a silver platter without spending resources including money on the fight to secure the nomination. It could also leave whichever one of them emerges wounded (politically). So yes I did make the argument in another thread that it's a blessing in disguise that DeSantis won, and that he won by a strong margin. Otherwise, who is going to stand between Trump and the Republican nomination. None of this is an endorsement of DeSantis. I'm just rooting for him to take out Trump.

And it all hinges on DeSantis actually deciding to run for president. I think he will, but I don't know what he's thinking. Maybe he wants to wait 4 more years and avoid a direct confrontation with Trump. But by 2028 his star may have faded. Voters can be fickle. I think if he's ambitious, now is the time to strike.

Stacyhs · 12th November 2022, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

I actually think that since DeSantis may be both slightly more aware of reality, and more of an actual believer in his "cause", DeSantis may well be MORE dangerous to the USA than Trump.

I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue.

The OP said DeSantis "backed candidates not aligned with Trump". That's because he doesn't want Trump loyalists in positions of power. He want DeSantis loyalists.

The Great Zaganza · 12th November 2022, 03:57 AM

Just as in 2015, the first Republican to declare will certainly lose the Nomination, no matter who he is.

Horatius · 12th November 2022, 06:31 AM

I think it's time to acknowledge that there are no Republicans who should be "backed" by anyone outside the Republican party.

They're all one of complicit with, indifferent to, or unable to oppose, the antics of the Republican party over the last decade or more. Trumpism is just the latest, most extreme version of a party that has gotten steadily worse, and shows no signs of changing course.

A pox on all their houses. It doesn't matter who they nominate in 2024, everyone else just needs to focus on the one thing that matters: getting as many Democrats elected as possible. And that means motivating a lot of non-voters to come out and vote, and vote Democrat. That's what the Democratic party should focus on, and essentially ignore the Republicans as much as possible.

Lurch · 12th November 2022, 09:25 AM

What a bloody crying shame that an out and out criminal is delicately handled like a king, requiring to be 'de-throned' by an up-and-comer scumbag instead of already being clapped in irons. Will CRIMINAL LEGAL consequences ever be brought to bear against Drumpf? Or will the country settle for a series of civil actions that only serves to keep that destructive miscreant forever in our collective misery.

Ladewig · 12th November 2022, 09:50 AM

**** DeSantis and anyone else peddling the lie that grade school textbooks are teaching critical race theory.

zorro99 · 12th November 2022, 09:56 AM

DeSantis appeared with Biden just a few weeks ago following the hurricane. Bipartisanship is not such a bad thing.

And why would he want to wait six years to run? He’s got the momentum right now. Six years is too far away to keep momentum. He should run in 2024.

Cain · 12th November 2022, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Horatius

I think it's time to acknowledge that there are no Republicans who should be "backed" by anyone outside the Republican party.

I thought this was about the "Let's-play-with-FIRE" strategy that paid off for Democrats in the mid-terms: Democrats said Trumpist candidates posed an existential threat to the country, but boosted them in their primary fights anyway because they would be weaker candidates in the general election. Democrats also did better than expected via more effective short-term gerrymandering.

DeSantis is going to do what he's going to do. If he runs, it will make the Republican who emerges less electable. All other things being equal, DeSantis would be more difficult to defeat than Trump. Not all other things are equal, however. Trump plays chicken by throwing the steering wheel out the window and making sure everyone sees him do it. He doesn't care at all about the Republican Party. If DeSantis were to win the nomination, Trump would try to take him down. Trump claimed Lyin' Ted Cruz cheated to win the Iowa caucus in 2016. If Trump were to win the nomination, then DeSantis would kiss the ring. And other Republicans would also fall in line. But Trump has so much baggage. Democrats helping DeSantis would fuel Trump's narrative that Deep State is out to get him. I think prediction markets overstate the likelihood a Republican will win in 2024. Unless Trump dies soon.

Trump's centrist positioning in 2016 is often overlooked. He was considered the least conservative candidate in the wide field. He did not take the stupid tax pledge. He vowed to protect Social Security and Medicare. He ran on the idea that trade wars were good and traditional wars were bad (with the realpolitick defense of Putin "you think our country is so innocent?"). He waved a rainbow flag, said the Electoral College was moronic, and didn't even expect to win. In 2020, he ran as Mr. Conservative, and lost. He has so much baggage, and weak coattails. A DeSantis run forces him to take positions.

What's Trump going to do with a second term? He's interested in attention, not governing.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue.

I don't believe in Republican ideologues anymore. The Trump presidency showed how craven and transactional the vast majority of them are.

One must weigh four more years of Trump against potentially eight years of DeSantis. Was Trump soooo bad? Yes. Yes, he was. People say, "Well, the world didn't come to an end, did it?" No, but if you had a 2% chance and it went to a 4% chance, it was always unlikely, but still, it's the world. What made Trump so bad, apart from the chaos? Mostly his response to the pandemic and election theft (impeachments 1 and 2).

The most remarkable achievement from the Trump White House was the vaccine. DeSantis says Trump came under the spell of the deep state by listening to Fauci and imposing lockdowns.

When someone loses the general election, they're supposed to go away. They don't get to run again. But Trump says the election was stolen, and others have gone along with the lie. A nomination fight could force discussion of the issue. At the debates, moderators will ask everyone who thinks the 2020 election was stolen to raise their hand.

I hoped for a Trump coup because it would almost certainly fail, and then Trumpism would be immediately rejected. Maybe a slow, fading rejection is best in the long run. Trump cost Republicans in 2018, 2020, and 2022. So much winning.

ZiprHead · 12th November 2022, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue.

The OP said DeSantis "backed candidates not aligned with Trump". That's because he doesn't want Trump loyalists in positions of power. He want DeSantis loyalists.

I don't agree. The Trump phenomenon is a cult of personality. It's not easy to replace such a thing.

bruto · 12th November 2022, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by ZiprHead

I don't agree. The Trump phenomenon is a cult of personality. It's not easy to replace such a thing.

The cult or the personality? I'm not sure either is within de Santis's reach.

JoeMorgue · 12th November 2022, 08:31 PM

I think DeSantis's success is more a case of Florida's weird demographics not giving the Democrats the same "in" they have in other places more than anything he's doing.

I think DeSantis is giving himself WAY too much credit for living in a state that's just a tough nut for the Democrat's to crack.

The Dems find a way to sell "Okay we're for abortion, but we're still worth voting for" to Florida's ultrareligious but otherwise left leaning Hispanic population and DeSantis will be selling pencils on the street corner.

Segnosaur · 12th November 2022, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I think DeSantis's success is more a case of Florida's weird demographics not giving the Democrats the same "in" they have in other places more than anything he's doing.

I think DeSantis is giving himself WAY too much credit for living in a state that's just a tough nut for the Democrat's to crack.

.

Plus remember 2 points:

- while Deathsantis had a very strong showing in 2022, in the previous election he won by less than 1%. It's possible that this one election was an abbreviation

- his opponent this time was a former Republican. I wonder if that might have impacted the election at all. i.e.potential democratic voters decided to sit out rather than decide between a republican and Republican-lite (one calorie... Not fascist enough)

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angrysoba · 12th November 2022, 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Plus remember 2 points:

- while Deathsantis had a very strong showing in 2022, in the previous election he won by less than 1%. It's possible that this one election was an abbreviation

- his opponent this time was a former Republican. I wonder if that might have impacted the election at all. i.e.potential democratic voters decided to sit out rather than decide between a republican and Republican-lite (one calorie... Not fascist enough)

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I'm guessing you meant aberration.

No idea, but I suppose if you look at the Senate race, you can see that Rubio also won by about the same amount. DeSantis beat the margin by a couple of percentage points.

Here is one possibility...

...one of my co-workers here in Japan voted in his home state of Arizona but was only able to vote for federal posts such as Senator, but NOT for Governor.

Could it be that Florida does the same for those voting from outside the state only allowing them to vote Senate hence the wider gap?

This could perhaps say more about the anti-Trump turn of the GOP (possibly?). Relatively non-Trumpers did better than pro-Trumpers?

Puppycow · 13th November 2022, 12:27 AM

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I AGREE

autumn1971 · 13th November 2022, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists?

Well it would include you, unless you have personally bowed before him and sucked his weird dick.

All honesty, can you look at Reagan”s fiscal policies and separate them from what Clinton proposed?
It’s a cult, and it needs to stop.

Donal · 13th November 2022, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

If you regard Donald Trump as a uniquely toxic and dangerous threat to the nation,

I regard him as a culmination, perhaps an acceleration of what the GOP has been doing for 40+ years. Thi is why I don't believe in "sensible Republicans".

Quote:

should we starting considering backing Ron DeSantis?

no. Trump was a symptom. The GQP is the disease.

Quote:

He's currently gaining approval among establishment Republicans and major media outlets,

The media has been talking him up for years.

Quote:

provoking the ire of Trump and much of his base. I've also seen many other MAGA people sharply criticize the former president after he introduced DeSantis' new nickname at a Pennsylvania rally last week.

Remember how all the Republicans hated Trump early on? Ya, they'll get back in line.

Quote:

I regard DeSantis as another shameless buffoon. He's done three things that have caught my eye recently though. He's put in work to protect the environment and natural resources of Florida, raised minimum teacher pay, and backed candidates not aligned with Trump. These are things the rightwing base do not normally crusade for. And IMO they provide an opening for liberals and Never-Trumpers to ingratiate themselves with the DeSantis coalition as it may turn out to be.

Never Trumpers will totally jump on this bandwagon. Just give them an excuse. Plenty of white middle-class "moderates" as well.

Quote:

This I think could backfire if DeSantis decides not to run and backs Trump; he's 44 and he may feel he has plenty of time.

The general thought is to strike while the iron is hot. It doesn't matter if it is someone else's "turn". You never know what will happen or who will be the next big thing. There's going to be stiff competition now. Waiting another 4 years will only make it tougher.

Quote:

It could also backfire if the establishment cannot or will not reign him in and he goes full Trumpist once in power.

The only problem they had with Trump was keeping him on message.

Quote:

But I think if there's any opportunity to create a wedge within the Republican power structure, if only to take away a single-digit slice of the general election numbers in 2024, it's now.

I just want to see Trump make him cry at the first debate. People forget how badly Gillam trounced him and damn near got himself and Bill Nelson's boomer ass elected.

autumn1971 · 13th November 2022, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by zorro99

DeSantis appeared with Biden just a few weeks ago following the hurricane. Bipartisanship is not such a bad thing.

And why would he want to wait six years to run? He’s got the momentum right now. Six years is too far away to keep momentum. He should run in 2024.

Biden should have refused to let him appear. Desantis is a scumbag fascist **** and needs to be shown what Americans did to his ilk in the 40s.

ETA: The Americans, i.e., non-republicans, are three parties. The main of it is rightist, a bunch are center-left, and about a dozen people at the state or federal level are progressives.

The republicans are dedicated to a theocratic plutocracy.

Venom · 13th November 2022, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Donal

I just want to see Trump make him cry at the first debate. People forget how badly Gillam trounced him and damn near got himself and Bill Nelson's boomer ass elected.

I think Trump would son him in live debate regardless of material. I think about the optics advantages of Trump being taller and DeSantis' "whiny" voice, etc.

bruto · 13th November 2022, 05:51 PM

I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether.

https://img.ifunny.co/images/f247a0e...48a3e81_1.webp

Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast.

Venom · 13th November 2022, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether.

https://img.ifunny.co/images/f247a0e...48a3e81_1.webp

Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast.

Norman Alexander · 13th November 2022, 06:19 PM

All this shows is Garrison is a raging coward prepared to suck up to the latest "strongman" in order to push his comics. Just watch. When DeSantis crashes and burns, he will pick some other wannabe fascist to latch onto.

Segnosaur · 13th November 2022, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether.
...

Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast.

Maybe he thinks Jesus only allows one character with muscles to be shown in any comic at any time

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Ladewig · 14th November 2022, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Venom

I think Trump would son him in live debate regardless of material. I think about the optics advantages of Trump being taller and DeSantis' "whiny" voice, etc.

Unless DeSantis is prepared to go nuclear and say, “Donald let’s compare our heights - we’ll take our shoes off and stand next to each other.”

Or he could challenge him to race down a ramp.

Donal · 14th November 2022, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether.

Ben Garrison is a bell end.

JoeMorgue · 14th November 2022, 08:37 AM

DeSantis is scarily good at selling the "You want freedom, I want the freedom to oppress you, so we're on even ground" message. He's a poster child for how the Right has blinders on about the Paradox of Tolerance.

His entire campaign was about how Florida is "freedom state" but it's all the same "The only freedom I care about is the freedom to hurt other people or be factually wrong about something" the Republicans love so much.

sackett · 14th November 2022, 08:40 AM

Duh Santas worries me. He has more to offer the corrupt big timers of the rethuglican Partei than Trumpf: real estate, casinos, banking (the laundromat kind), smuggling, public contracts -- hell, outright slavery for all I can see.

Trumpf can service the emotional needs of the hooligan vote and that's about it.

JoeMorgue · 14th November 2022, 08:43 AM

Also I've seen the dude in person a couple/few times (He's a not uncommon presence on military based in Florida) and he does have more like... street level charisma than Trump does. He's harder to "hate" on a raw, personal emotional level then Trump.

Again I'm not AS worried about DeSantis for reasons I outlined before, he's much more a case of Florida's weird demographics being a tough nut to crack for Democrats and I don't think (hope) that would translate to national level success that easily, but I'm still a little worried. He COULD be that "Trump but not so cartoonish about it" problem.

bruto · 14th November 2022, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Donal

Ben Garrison is a bell end.

I played right into that one, didn't I?

sackett · 14th November 2022, 09:29 AM

●JoeMorgue! You're starting to scare me! You say DeSnazi has some little charisma? Jesus, if the professionals could sell a wierd creep like Nixon, with his rancid-dishrag personality, they could turn DeSmutty into a new Huey Long. "Every WHITE man a king! Muh!"

But let's hope that Peak Fascism has passed. We just saw what happens when the rightie tighties overreach themselves -- and they always do, because their doctrine of Perpetual Struggle forces them to.

11th November 2022, 02:29 PM	#2
Chris_Halkides Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 11,077	Surgeon General Ladapo Governor DeSantis appointed Dr. Joseph Ladapo as Surgeon General of Florida, who is a crank when it comes to Covid-19 vaccines. Link1 Link2. Enough said, because I don't want this to become a derail.
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11th November 2022, 03:32 PM	#3
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,758	I sort of get the point of the OP, but "should we start considering backing" seems a bit excessive. To be not as bad as Trump requires little virtue.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

11th November 2022, 04:08 PM	#5
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 19,885	Originally Posted by Venom Just to get the man over the initial ********* Trump will throw at him. It could also possibly hurt DeSantis to be pictured shaking hands with Radical Leftists and RINOs. Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists?
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11th November 2022, 04:10 PM	#6
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,535	I actually think that since DeSantis may be both slightly more aware of reality, and more of an actual believer in his "cause", DeSantis may well be MORE dangerous to the USA than Trump.
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11th November 2022, 04:12 PM	#7
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,535	Originally Posted by Brainster Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists? "Radical Leftist" = Anyone Trump doesn't like this week.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

11th November 2022, 03:39 PM	#4
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,136	Originally Posted by bruto I sort of get the point of the OP, but "should we start considering backing" seems a bit excessive. To be not as bad as Trump requires little virtue. Just to get the man over the initial ********* Trump will throw at him. It could also possibly hurt DeSantis to be pictured shaking hands with Radical Leftists and RINOs.

11th November 2022, 04:34 PM	#8
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,136	Or...Trump is trying to draw out fake MAGA with this cunning ploy!

11th November 2022, 08:23 PM	#9
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,411	If something is retruthed does that make it truthier?

11th November 2022, 10:12 PM	#10
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,758	Originally Posted by Lurch If something is retruthed does that make it truthier? I assume Trump needs retruthing from time to time because he leaks.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

11th November 2022, 11:01 PM	#11
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,982	They are both toxic piles of ****. DeSantis is supposed to be much smarter but doesn't show it. Trump is clinically insane and does. Neither is in any way desirable anywhere near government.
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12th November 2022, 02:35 AM	#12
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 27,962	The only thing I'm hoping for is that DeSantis runs because then Trump (and DeSantis) will have a nasty fight for the nomination, and Trump won't be able to just receive it on a silver platter without spending resources including money on the fight to secure the nomination. It could also leave whichever one of them emerges wounded (politically). So yes I did make the argument in another thread that it's a blessing in disguise that DeSantis won, and that he won by a strong margin. Otherwise, who is going to stand between Trump and the Republican nomination. None of this is an endorsement of DeSantis. I'm just rooting for him to take out Trump. And it all hinges on DeSantis actually deciding to run for president. I think he will, but I don't know what he's thinking. Maybe he wants to wait 4 more years and avoid a direct confrontation with Trump. But by 2028 his star may have faded. Voters can be fickle. I think if he's ambitious, now is the time to strike.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

12th November 2022, 02:42 AM	#13
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 30,320	Originally Posted by Trebuchet I actually think that since DeSantis may be both slightly more aware of reality, and more of an actual believer in his "cause", DeSantis may well be MORE dangerous to the USA than Trump. I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue. The OP said DeSantis "backed candidates not aligned with Trump". That's because he doesn't want Trump loyalists in positions of power. He want DeSantis loyalists.

12th November 2022, 03:57 AM	#14
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,893	Just as in 2015, the first Republican to declare will certainly lose the Nomination, no matter who he is.
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12th November 2022, 06:31 AM	#15
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,685	I think it's time to acknowledge that there are no Republicans who should be "backed" by anyone outside the Republican party. They're all one of complicit with, indifferent to, or unable to oppose, the antics of the Republican party over the last decade or more. Trumpism is just the latest, most extreme version of a party that has gotten steadily worse, and shows no signs of changing course. A pox on all their houses. It doesn't matter who they nominate in 2024, everyone else just needs to focus on the one thing that matters: getting as many Democrats elected as possible. And that means motivating a lot of non-voters to come out and vote, and vote Democrat. That's what the Democratic party should focus on, and essentially ignore the Republicans as much as possible.
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12th November 2022, 09:25 AM	#16
Lurch Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,411	What a bloody crying shame that an out and out criminal is delicately handled like a king, requiring to be 'de-throned' by an up-and-comer scumbag instead of already being clapped in irons. Will CRIMINAL LEGAL consequences ever be brought to bear against Drumpf? Or will the country settle for a series of civil actions that only serves to keep that destructive miscreant forever in our collective misery.

12th November 2022, 09:50 AM	#17
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,767	**** DeSantis and anyone else peddling the lie that grade school textbooks are teaching critical race theory.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

12th November 2022, 09:56 AM	#18
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,268	DeSantis appeared with Biden just a few weeks ago following the hurricane. Bipartisanship is not such a bad thing. And why would he want to wait six years to run? He’s got the momentum right now. Six years is too far away to keep momentum. He should run in 2024.
zorro99 Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,268	__________________ There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact.

12th November 2022, 12:40 PM	#19
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 15,256	Originally Posted by Horatius I think it's time to acknowledge that there are no Republicans who should be "backed" by anyone outside the Republican party. I thought this was about the "Let's-play-with-FIRE" strategy that paid off for Democrats in the mid-terms: Democrats said Trumpist candidates posed an existential threat to the country, but boosted them in their primary fights anyway because they would be weaker candidates in the general election. Democrats also did better than expected via more effective short-term gerrymandering. DeSantis is going to do what he's going to do. If he runs, it will make the Republican who emerges less electable. All other things being equal, DeSantis would be more difficult to defeat than Trump. Not all other things are equal, however. Trump plays chicken by throwing the steering wheel out the window and making sure everyone sees him do it. He doesn't care at all about the Republican Party. If DeSantis were to win the nomination, Trump would try to take him down. Trump claimed Lyin' Ted Cruz cheated to win the Iowa caucus in 2016. If Trump were to win the nomination, then DeSantis would kiss the ring. And other Republicans would also fall in line. But Trump has so much baggage. Democrats helping DeSantis would fuel Trump's narrative that Deep State is out to get him. I think prediction markets overstate the likelihood a Republican will win in 2024. Unless Trump dies soon. Trump's centrist positioning in 2016 is often overlooked. He was considered the least conservative candidate in the wide field. He did not take the stupid tax pledge. He vowed to protect Social Security and Medicare. He ran on the idea that trade wars were good and traditional wars were bad (with the realpolitick defense of Putin "you think our country is so innocent?"). He waved a rainbow flag, said the Electoral College was moronic, and didn't even expect to win. In 2020, he ran as Mr. Conservative, and lost. He has so much baggage, and weak coattails. A DeSantis run forces him to take positions. What's Trump going to do with a second term? He's interested in attention, not governing. Originally Posted by Stacyhs I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue. I don't believe in Republican ideologues anymore. The Trump presidency showed how craven and transactional the vast majority of them are. One must weigh four more years of Trump against potentially eight years of DeSantis. Was Trump soooo bad? Yes. Yes, he was. People say, "Well, the world didn't come to an end, did it?" No, but if you had a 2% chance and it went to a 4% chance, it was always unlikely, but still, it's the world. What made Trump so bad, apart from the chaos? Mostly his response to the pandemic and election theft (impeachments 1 and 2). The most remarkable achievement from the Trump White House was the vaccine. DeSantis says Trump came under the spell of the deep state by listening to Fauci and imposing lockdowns. When someone loses the general election, they're supposed to go away. They don't get to run again. But Trump says the election was stolen, and others have gone along with the lie. A nomination fight could force discussion of the issue. At the debates, moderators will ask everyone who thinks the 2020 election was stolen to raise their hand. I hoped for a Trump coup because it would almost certainly fail, and then Trumpism would be immediately rejected. Maybe a slow, fading rejection is best in the long run. Trump cost Republicans in 2018, 2020, and 2022. So much winning.
	__________________ Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value.

12th November 2022, 07:42 PM	#20
ZiprHead Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sag-Nasty Posts: 927	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I agree. DeSantis could well be an even bigger threat that Trump in the long run. Trump is all about Trump whereas DeSantis may be a true ideologue. The OP said DeSantis "backed candidates not aligned with Trump". That's because he doesn't want Trump loyalists in positions of power. He want DeSantis loyalists. I don't agree. The Trump phenomenon is a cult of personality. It's not easy to replace such a thing.
	__________________ When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy. IIDB is back, baby!

12th November 2022, 07:58 PM	#21
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,758	Originally Posted by ZiprHead I don't agree. The Trump phenomenon is a cult of personality. It's not easy to replace such a thing. The cult or the personality? I'm not sure either is within de Santis's reach.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

12th November 2022, 08:31 PM	#22
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,114	I think DeSantis's success is more a case of Florida's weird demographics not giving the Democrats the same "in" they have in other places more than anything he's doing. I think DeSantis is giving himself WAY too much credit for living in a state that's just a tough nut for the Democrat's to crack. The Dems find a way to sell "Okay we're for abortion, but we're still worth voting for" to Florida's ultrareligious but otherwise left leaning Hispanic population and DeSantis will be selling pencils on the street corner.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

12th November 2022, 10:21 PM	#23
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 19,897	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I think DeSantis's success is more a case of Florida's weird demographics not giving the Democrats the same "in" they have in other places more than anything he's doing. I think DeSantis is giving himself WAY too much credit for living in a state that's just a tough nut for the Democrat's to crack. . Plus remember 2 points: - while Deathsantis had a very strong showing in 2022, in the previous election he won by less than 1%. It's possible that this one election was an abbreviation - his opponent this time was a former Republican. I wonder if that might have impacted the election at all. i.e.potential democratic voters decided to sit out rather than decide between a republican and Republican-lite (one calorie... Not fascist enough) Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

12th November 2022, 11:03 PM	#24
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 34,399	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Plus remember 2 points: - while Deathsantis had a very strong showing in 2022, in the previous election he won by less than 1%. It's possible that this one election was an abbreviation - his opponent this time was a former Republican. I wonder if that might have impacted the election at all. i.e.potential democratic voters decided to sit out rather than decide between a republican and Republican-lite (one calorie... Not fascist enough) Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk I'm guessing you meant aberration. No idea, but I suppose if you look at the Senate race, you can see that Rubio also won by about the same amount. DeSantis beat the margin by a couple of percentage points. Here is one possibility... ...one of my co-workers here in Japan voted in his home state of Arizona but was only able to vote for federal posts such as Senator, but NOT for Governor. Could it be that Florida does the same for those voting from outside the state only allowing them to vote Senate hence the wider gap? This could perhaps say more about the anti-Trump turn of the GOP (possibly?). Relatively non-Trumpers did better than pro-Trumpers?
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13th November 2022, 01:35 PM	#26
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,199	Originally Posted by Brainster Why would you think he would shake hands with radical leftists? Well it would include you, unless you have personally bowed before him and sucked his weird dick. All honesty, can you look at Reagan”s fiscal policies and separate them from what Clinton proposed? It’s a cult, and it needs to stop.
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,199	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

13th November 2022, 01:47 PM	#27
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,628	Originally Posted by Venom If you regard Donald Trump as a uniquely toxic and dangerous threat to the nation, I regard him as a culmination, perhaps an acceleration of what the GOP has been doing for 40+ years. Thi is why I don't believe in "sensible Republicans". Quote: should we starting considering backing Ron DeSantis? no. Trump was a symptom. The GQP is the disease. Quote: He's currently gaining approval among establishment Republicans and major media outlets, The media has been talking him up for years. Quote: provoking the ire of Trump and much of his base. I've also seen many other MAGA people sharply criticize the former president after he introduced DeSantis' new nickname at a Pennsylvania rally last week. Remember how all the Republicans hated Trump early on? Ya, they'll get back in line. Quote: I regard DeSantis as another shameless buffoon. He's done three things that have caught my eye recently though. He's put in work to protect the environment and natural resources of Florida, raised minimum teacher pay, and backed candidates not aligned with Trump. These are things the rightwing base do not normally crusade for. And IMO they provide an opening for liberals and Never-Trumpers to ingratiate themselves with the DeSantis coalition as it may turn out to be. Never Trumpers will totally jump on this bandwagon. Just give them an excuse. Plenty of white middle-class "moderates" as well. Quote: This I think could backfire if DeSantis decides not to run and backs Trump; he's 44 and he may feel he has plenty of time. The general thought is to strike while the iron is hot. It doesn't matter if it is someone else's "turn". You never know what will happen or who will be the next big thing. There's going to be stiff competition now. Waiting another 4 years will only make it tougher. Quote: It could also backfire if the establishment cannot or will not reign him in and he goes full Trumpist once in power. The only problem they had with Trump was keeping him on message. Quote: But I think if there's any opportunity to create a wedge within the Republican power structure, if only to take away a single-digit slice of the general election numbers in 2024, it's now. I just want to see Trump make him cry at the first debate. People forget how badly Gillam trounced him and damn near got himself and Bill Nelson's boomer ass elected.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,628	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

13th November 2022, 01:51 PM	#28
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,199	Originally Posted by zorro99 DeSantis appeared with Biden just a few weeks ago following the hurricane. Bipartisanship is not such a bad thing. And why would he want to wait six years to run? He’s got the momentum right now. Six years is too far away to keep momentum. He should run in 2024. Biden should have refused to let him appear. Desantis is a scumbag fascist **** and needs to be shown what Americans did to his ilk in the 40s. ETA: The Americans, i.e., non-republicans, are three parties. The main of it is rightist, a bunch are center-left, and about a dozen people at the state or federal level are progressives. The republicans are dedicated to a theocratic plutocracy.
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,199	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard Last edited by autumn1971; 13th November 2022 at 02:00 PM.

13th November 2022, 05:42 PM	#29
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,136	Originally Posted by Donal I just want to see Trump make him cry at the first debate. People forget how badly Gillam trounced him and damn near got himself and Bill Nelson's boomer ass elected. I think Trump would son him in live debate regardless of material. I think about the optics advantages of Trump being taller and DeSantis' "whiny" voice, etc.

13th November 2022, 05:51 PM	#30
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,758	I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether. https://img.ifunny.co/images/f247a0e...48a3e81_1.webp Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

13th November 2022, 06:14 PM	#31
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,136	Originally Posted by bruto I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether. https://img.ifunny.co/images/f247a0e...48a3e81_1.webp Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast.

13th November 2022, 06:19 PM	#32
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,982	All this shows is Garrison is a raging coward prepared to suck up to the latest "strongman" in order to push his comics. Just watch. When DeSantis crashes and burns, he will pick some other wannabe fascist to latch onto.
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13th November 2022, 07:50 PM	#33
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 19,897	Originally Posted by bruto I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether. ... Garrison's former superman certainly has lost weight fast. Maybe he thinks Jesus only allows one character with muscles to be shown in any comic at any time Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
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14th November 2022, 08:01 AM	#34
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,767	Originally Posted by Venom I think Trump would son him in live debate regardless of material. I think about the optics advantages of Trump being taller and DeSantis' "whiny" voice, etc. Unless DeSantis is prepared to go nuclear and say, “Donald let’s compare our heights - we’ll take our shoes off and stand next to each other.” Or he could challenge him to race down a ramp.
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14th November 2022, 08:21 AM	#35
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,628	Originally Posted by bruto I don't know if it is symptomatic of anything bigger, but I wonder if Ben Garrison is a bellwether. Ben Garrison is a bell end.
Donal Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 5,628	__________________ SuburbanNerd A blog for making tech make sense

14th November 2022, 08:37 AM	#36
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,114	DeSantis is scarily good at selling the "You want freedom, I want the freedom to oppress you, so we're on even ground" message. He's a poster child for how the Right has blinders on about the Paradox of Tolerance. His entire campaign was about how Florida is "freedom state" but it's all the same "The only freedom I care about is the freedom to hurt other people or be factually wrong about something" the Republicans love so much.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 14th November 2022 at 08:38 AM.

14th November 2022, 08:40 AM	#37
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,393	Duh Santas worries me. He has more to offer the corrupt big timers of the rethuglican Partei than Trumpf: real estate, casinos, banking (the laundromat kind), smuggling, public contracts -- hell, outright slavery for all I can see. Trumpf can service the emotional needs of the hooligan vote and that's about it.
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