The DeSantis gambit

[angrysoba]

I suppose Ziggurat is not going to explain the DeSantis spat with Disney because doing so in simple terms will only highlight how ridiculous it is. Either it will reveal extreme pettiness, some virtue signaling to bigots or some combination of the two.

So, DeSantis is anti-vax, anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-CRT and anti-academic freedom judging by his appointments, statements and legislation all in an attempt to win the crazy vote from the Trump campaign which is effortlessly outflanking him.

I think we can put a fork in this one.

[gnome]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Uh, yeah, no. That's really not an accurate description of what happened, and it's really not what DeSantis objected to.

Is there a reason you haven't described what happened, and what DeSantis objected to?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I suppose Ziggurat is not going to explain the DeSantis spat with Disney because doing so in simple terms will only highlight how ridiculous it is. Either it will reveal extreme pettiness, some virtue signaling to bigots or some combination of the two.

Oh, you can call it all of those if you really want. But what it isn't is simply DeSantis hating teh gays. It was about an opposition to sexualizing children. I'm not interested in debating whether or not that goal is important, whether or not his perception of that problem is correct, whether or not the legislation was an appropriate response. None of that matters for my claim. But that was still the motive. Disney's pride night doesn't really have anything to do with that. That's why it's not going to matter to him.

It was claimed that DeSantis would respond to this to express how upset it made him. If he did, that would prove me wrong. If he didn't, well, that should be suggestive that maybe I'm right. Can you find any response from DeSantis about Disney's pride night? I haven't seen any yet.

[bruto]

We are told, more or less en masse, that we don't understand some of De Santis's actions. That might depend a good deal on how orderly or sane those motivations are in the first place. I wonder why that matters if we consider the actions crazy and stupid anyway. Insight can be recreationally rewarding, and useful for future planning, but it's not always needed in order to understand what ought to be happening right now.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by bruto

We are told, more or less en masse, that we don't understand some of De Santis's actions. That might depend a good deal on how orderly or sane those motivations are in the first place. I wonder why that matters if we consider the actions crazy and stupid anyway.

It's relevant to predicting future actions. Specifically in this case, the prediction was made by others that DeSantis would get upset about Disney's pride night. I predict that he won't. We will see who is correct.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, you can call it all of those if you really want. But what it isn't is simply DeSantis hating teh gays. It was about an opposition to sexualizing children. I'm not interested in debating whether or not that goal is important, whether or not his perception of that problem is correct, whether or not the legislation was an appropriate response. None of that matters for my claim. But that was still the motive. Disney's pride night doesn't really have anything to do with that. That's why it's not going to matter to him.

It was claimed that DeSantis would respond to this to express how upset it made him. If he did, that would prove me wrong. If he didn't, well, that should be suggestive that maybe I'm right. Can you find any response from DeSantis about Disney's pride night? I haven't seen any yet.

What does that mean? This is a vague statement that the GOP loves to embrace but in reality means nothing except as an excuse to hate. It's like "woke."

Desexualizing children? Is that anyone under the age of 18? You do understand that sex is something that is a biological drive for adolescents? Putting your head in the sand doesn't work.

[dudalb]

I see that Ziggy is avoiding talking about the whole reason behind the war on Disney: Disney's support for the LBGTG communitry.
What does Ziggy think about the lastest attack on the LGBT Community in Florida by making them "unpersons" unmetionalble in Florida schools?
Just read Ziggy's 'It is not about gays" statement. What a bunch of stupid BS.

[dudalb]

I think somebody knows that Trump will almost certainly be a disaster for the GOP in 2024, and is blindly supporting De Santis as the most likley alternative.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

What does that mean? This is a vague statement that the GOP loves to embrace but in reality means nothing except as an excuse to hate. It's like "woke."

Desexualizing children? Is that anyone under the age of 18? You do understand that sex is something that is a biological drive for adolescents? Putting your head in the sand doesn't work.

Originally Posted by dudalb

I see that Ziggy is avoiding talking about the whole reason behind the war on Disney: Disney's support for the LBGTG communitry.
What does Ziggy think about the lastest attack on the LGBT Community in Florida by making them "unpersons" unmetionalble in Florida schools?
Just read Ziggy's 'It is not about gays" statement. What a bunch of stupid BS.

Shorter Zig: Gays only exist to groom/convert/rape children. And Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist, not Trum.

[dudalb]

I think it is more a case of 'I don't care if the GOP commits genocide as long as I get my tax breaks".

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Ya gotta love The Onion.

Loved it.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Im not trying to convince you he's right. I'm not suggesting you would agree with him. I'm suggesting that you don't understand him. That doesn't depend on him being, as you say, "high minded". This idea that be just hates gays so much that he would care about Disney holding a pride event doesn't really check out.

Whether or not he hates gays is irrelevant. The people he's trying to impress hate gays.

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It was about an opposition to sexualizing children.

Heterosexuals have been sexualizing everyone for generations. Tucker ******* Carlson got upset that M&Ms aren't sexy anymore.

"Sexualizing children" and "grooming," etc., is a dog whistle for "keep your gayness away from me!"

[Tero]

If not DeSantis then Trump? The young people will hate the 2024 election.

[Stacyhs]

This entire DeSantis fight with Disney is because Disney had the audacity to criticize the 'Don't Say Gay' law. Some may like to deny this, but DeSantis' own words support it.

From POLITICO:

Quote:

DeSantis made clear Friday that the moves, targeting Disney’s self-governing status and a special carve-out in another law, were retribution for the company fighting against Florida’s recently enacted “Parental Rights in Education” bill, branded as “Don’t Say Gay” by opponents.

He specifically took aim at Disney pushing to repeal the law.

“You’re a corporation based in Burbank, California, and you’re going to martial your economic might to attack the parents of my state? We view that as a provocation, and we’re going to fight back against that,” DeSantis said during an event at a Hialeah Gardens charter school.

Quote:

Florida Republicans leveled the punishments on Disney this week largely over the company’s opposition to the parental rights bill that DeSantis signed last month, which prohibits educators from leading classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity for students in kindergarten through third grade. LGBTQ advocates say the measure could lead students to increased bullying or even suicide.

Quote:

The day DeSantis signed the bill, Disney officials made a bold statement that it “should never have passed” and that “our goal as a company is for this law to be repealed.”

Quote:

Aside from the “Don’t Say Gay” criticisms, DeSantis said Friday that he is also against recent statements by Disney executives discussing efforts to include more diverse characters in their content. He cited recorded Zoom calls from the company that were reported by Christopher Rufo, a conservative activist who attended Friday’s bill signing and was praised by DeSantis for “raising the alarm” about critical race theory in schools.

“I’m just not comfortable having that type of agenda get special treatment in my state,” DeSantis said. “I just can’t do it. “

Don't tell me that we "don't actually understand the bill, or the motivation behind it."


And don't tell me that this is about "an opposition to sexualizing children" either. Disney CEO [b]"Chapek said that he called Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Wednesday morning, "to express our disappointment and concern that if the legislation becomes law, it could be used to unfairly target gay, lesbian, non-binary and transgender kids and families."

THAT has zero to do with 'sexualizing children'.

Disney wanting to "include more diversity in its characters" isn't about sexualizing anyone, much less children, either.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

This entire DeSantis fight with Disney is because Disney had the audacity to criticize the 'Don't Say Gay' law. Some may like to deny this, but DeSantis' own words support it.

From POLITICO:

DeSantis made clear Friday that the moves, targeting Disney’s self-governing status and a special carve-out in another law, were retribution for the company fighting against Florida’s recently enacted “Parental Rights in Education” bill, branded as “Don’t Say Gay” by opponents.

He specifically took aim at Disney pushing to repeal the law.

“You’re a corporation based in Burbank, California, and you’re going to martial your economic might to attack the parents of my state? We view that as a provocation, and we’re going to fight back against that,” DeSantis said during an event at a Hialeah Gardens charter school.

Quote:
Florida Republicans leveled the punishments on Disney this week largely over the company’s opposition to the parental rights bill that DeSantis signed last month, which prohibits educators from leading classroom instruction on sexual orientation and gender identity for students in kindergarten through third grade. LGBTQ advocates say the measure could lead students to increased bullying or even suicide.


Quote:
The day DeSantis signed the bill, Disney officials made a bold statement that it “should never have passed” and that “our goal as a company is for this law to be repealed.”

Aside from the “Don’t Say Gay” criticisms, DeSantis said Friday that he is also against recent statements by Disney executives discussing efforts to include more diverse characters in their content. He cited recorded Zoom calls from the company that were reported by Christopher Rufo, a conservative activist who attended Friday’s bill signing and was praised by DeSantis for “raising the alarm” about critical race theory in schools.

“I’m just not comfortable having that type of agenda get special treatment in my state,” DeSantis said. “I just can’t do it. “

Don't tell me that we "don't actually understand the bill, or the motivation behind it."


And don't tell me that this is about "an opposition to sexualizing children" either. Disney CEO [b]"Chapek said that he called Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Wednesday morning, "to express our disappointment and concern that if the legislation becomes law, it could be used to unfairly target gay, lesbian, non-binary and transgender kids and families."

Don't tell me that we "don't actually understand the bill, or the motivation behind it."

And don't tell me that this is about "an opposition to sexualizing children" either. Disney CEO [b]"Chapek said that he called Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Wednesday morning, "to express our disappointment and concern that if the legislation becomes law, it could be used to unfairly target gay, lesbian, non-binary and transgender kids and families."

THAT has zero to do with 'sexualizing children'.

Disney wanting to "include more diversity in its characters" isn't about sexualizing anyone, much less children, either.

There you go Stacy. Inserting facts into the discussion.

Shame on you.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, you can call it all of those if you really want. But what it isn't is simply DeSantis hating teh gays. It was about an opposition to sexualizing children. I'm not interested in debating whether or not that goal is important, whether or not his perception of that problem is correct, whether or not the legislation was an appropriate response. None of that matters for my claim. But that was still the motive. Disney's pride night doesn't really have anything to do with that. That's why it's not going to matter to him.

It was claimed that DeSantis would respond to this to express how upset it made him. If he did, that would prove me wrong. If he didn't, well, that should be suggestive that maybe I'm right. Can you find any response from DeSantis about Disney's pride night? I haven't seen any yet.

Okaaaaay, do we have some examples?

Were they running a children's beauty pageant? Some of those do look a bit dodgy, I will agree. Is that what it was?

[Stacyhs]

Today, FL extended the "Don't Say Gay" law through 12 grade. So no teacher or counselor can talk about gender identification or sexual orientation even in high school. Yeah, this is all about "protecting children for being sexualized".

Quote:

Republican Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis added more wins to his agenda targeting the LGBTQ+ community as a state board approved an expansion of what critics call the “Don’t Say Gay” law Wednesday, and the House passed bills on gender-transition treatments, bathroom use and keeping children out of drag shows.

The Board of Education approved a ban on classroom instruction about sexual orientation and gender identity in all grades, expanding the law that bans those lesson up to grade 3 at the request of DeSantis as he gears up for an expected presidential run.

The rule change would ban lessons on sexual orientation and gender identity from grades 4-12, unless required by existing state standards or as part of reproductive health instruction that students can choose not t

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

There you go Stacy. Inserting facts into the discussion.

Shame on you.

My shame is complete. I'll go all GOP and abstain from inserting fact into discussions and opt for fear mongering in the future.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Okaaaaay, do we have some examples?

Were they running a children's beauty pageant? Some of those do look a bit dodgy, I will agree. Is that what it was?

You're trying to debate the merits of the law. I just told you that's not relevant to my claim. It's also off topic.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You're trying to debate the merits of the law. I just told you that's not relevant to my claim. It's also off topic.

Your basic claim is that DeSantis was acting in Good Faith, which is patently untrue.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Your basic claim is that DeSantis was acting in Good Faith, which is patently untrue.

No, that's not my basic claim. My basic claim is DeSantis doesn't care about Disney pride night, and won't respond to it. The counter claim was that he does, and will.

So has he? Will he? That's the real test. Nobody so far has found a response from him.

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You're trying to debate the merits of the law. I just told you that's not relevant to my claim. It's also off topic.

NONSENSE!!

It is directly relevant to your claim. We are discussing DeSantis's fight with Disney and what the fight is about.

This is all about hatred disguised as caring about children. DeSantis may not personally hate gays but there is little reason to say he isn't selling hate under the guise of caring about children.

[The Great Zaganza]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No, that's not my basic claim. My basic claim is DeSantis doesn't care about Disney pride night, and won't respond to it. The counter claim was that he does, and will.

So has he? Will he? That's the real test. Nobody so far has found a response from him.

Moving goalposts.

What has Disney, a private company and entitled to Free Speech considerations, done that would justify the retaliation visited upon it by DeSantis?

Apart from insinuating that it might not donate that much money to him going forward?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Moving goalposts.

Nope. Trace back this part of the conversation, you will see that's where it started. Do you need me to do that for you, or can you figure it out on your own?

Quote:

What has Disney, a private company and entitled to Free Speech considerations, done that would justify the retaliation visited upon it by DeSantis?

What justifies removing Disney's special privileges is that they shouldn't have had them in the first place. Leftists used to recognize that. They're only trying to defend those privileges now to stick it to DeSantis, they can't justify them on their own terms.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

NONSENSE!!

It is directly relevant to your claim.

You have lost track of which claim this specific discussion was about. It's about whether DeSantis cares about Disney holding a pride night. That's the context of these last posts. Follow it back, you'll see.

[gnome]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, you can call it all of those if you really want. But what it isn't is simply DeSantis hating teh gays. It was about an opposition to sexualizing children. I'm not interested in debating whether or not that goal is important, whether or not his perception of that problem is correct, whether or not the legislation was an appropriate response. None of that matters for my claim. But that was still the motive.

All these things you're not interested in debating amounts to simply refusing to question whether his stated motive is believable. Why must we take it at face value without debate?

[acbytesla]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You have lost track of which claim this specific discussion was about. It's about whether DeSantis cares about Disney holding a pride night. That's the context of these last posts. Follow it back, you'll see.

DeSantis cares. He's selling hate. That's what he does. It's his shtick. Can't sell anything of real value to the poor uneducated whites but hate. Pitch xenophobia, racism and homophobia. Get them to forget his corruption and his kowtowing to the wealthy.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You're trying to debate the merits of the law. I just told you that's not relevant to my claim. It's also off topic.

DeSantis is not doing the BS you think he is. He is doing some other BS (which I am not prepared to defend!)

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What justifies removing Disney's special privileges is that they shouldn't have had them in the first place.

Noooo! You said it was about sexualizing children.

Then when asked, you said it is not relevant, but only relevant that it is NOT about Pride night.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by gnome

All these things you're not interested in debating amounts to simply refusing to question whether his stated motive is believable. Why must we take it at face value without debate?

You can debate it all you want. But the proof is in the pudding. Will DeSantis respond to Disney's pride night? I think he won't. Many here are claiming he will. If he does, then I will know I was wrong. If he doesn't, will they conclude likewise?

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Noooo! You said it was about sexualizing children.

You have conflated motivation with justification. They are not actually the same, though people often confuse them. We can never know for sure what motivates another person. But if their actions are justified, then that suffices. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing, and doing the wrong thing is likewise wrong regardless of the reason.

[Ziggurat]

Originally Posted by acbytesla

DeSantis cares.

Then prove it. Show me his response to their pride night.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

You have conflated motivation with justification. They are not actually the same, though people often confuse them. We can never know for sure what motivates another person. But if their actions are justified, then that suffices. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing, and doing the wrong thing is likewise wrong regardless of the reason.

Not what you suggested before...

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, you can call it all of those if you really want. But what it isn't is simply DeSantis hating teh gays. It was about an opposition to sexualizing children. I'm not interested in debating whether or not that goal is important, whether or not his perception of that problem is correct, whether or not the legislation was an appropriate response. None of that matters for my claim. But that was still the motive. Disney's pride night doesn't really have anything to do with that. That's why it's not going to matter to him.

It was claimed that DeSantis would respond to this to express how upset it made him. If he did, that would prove me wrong. If he didn't, well, that should be suggestive that maybe I'm right. Can you find any response from DeSantis about Disney's pride night? I haven't seen any yet.

Much of this whole debate you are engaged in now is you claiming to know what motivates DeSantis.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I suppose Ziggurat is not going to explain the DeSantis spat with Disney because doing so in simple terms will only highlight how ridiculous it is. Either it will reveal extreme pettiness, some virtue signaling to bigots or some combination of the two.

So, DeSantis is anti-vax, anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-CRT and anti-academic freedom judging by his appointments, statements and legislation all in an attempt to win the crazy vote from the Trump campaign which is effortlessly outflanking him.

I think we can put a fork in this one.

IOW right on message for today's GOP and 40%+ of the US electorate

[Susheel]

Originally Posted by The Don

IOW right on message for today's GOP and 40%+ of the US electorate

What Ziggurat wants to convey is probably that "De Santis is trolling the libs," and the main reason why many of the supposedly "sensible" conservatives supported Trump in the early days. While the "drinking liberal tears" sounded soooo edgy half a decade ago, it is now just embarassing, and even Zig knows it.

[Stacyhs]

DeSantis is
DeSantis claimed that Disney was given an exemption that the governor claims was 'snuck' into a bill. He now says he almost vetoed it because of that very exemption... which his own staff helped to write.

Quote:

The other bill signed by DeSantis, FL SB 6-C, repeals a carve-out tucked into a law passed last year that exempted Disney and other theme parks from a law cracking down on tech companies, a policy that is currently being challenged in federal court.

DeSantis claimed Friday that this provision was “snuck into” the bill, but records previously reported show that the governor’s own staff helped write it to benefit Disney.

“Gov. DeSantis claims that he hates special privileges and special perks, except he actually helps facilitate them all the time, so he’s a giant hypocrite,” state Rep. Carlos Guillermo Smith (D-Orlando) said Friday. “It’s when they take away your campaign contributions and speak out against your extreme agenda is when you no longer support them.”

More on the highlighted part from the Tampa Bay Times:

Quote:

“At the eleventh hour when the Legislature was doing this, Disney got them to put in a carveout for theme parks,” DeSantis said Thursday during a news conference in West Palm Beach in which he called for ending the company’s “special privileges.”

“I’m thinking to myself, ‘This is ridiculous.’ Honestly, it was embarrassing,” he added, saying he considered vetoing the legislation because of the carveout.

But DeSantis’ own staff helped write it.

Emails between staff working for the governor’s office and the House Commerce Committee show that DeSantis’ legislative affairs director, Stephanie Kopelousos, was in communication with Disney to propose bill language written by the company. The emails were first reported by the Seeking Rents newsletter, which shared them with the Tampa Bay Times.

[Norman Alexander]

Oh, so Meatball Ron doesn't mind lying through his pointed teeth to make some precious, petty point when he gets totally embarrassed, nay pwned, publicly.

Why am I not surprised.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Susheel

What Ziggurat wants to convey is probably that "De Santis is trolling the libs," and the main reason why many of the supposedly "sensible" conservatives supported Trump in the early days. While the "drinking liberal tears" sounded soooo edgy half a decade ago, it is now just embarassing, and even Zig knows it.

AWWWWWW....this made me think of Warp...and how much I do NOT miss him.

[Susheel]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

AWWWWWW....this made me think of Warp...and how much I do NOT miss him.

Well...the attitude predates Warp here...