The DeSantis gambit - Page 7

wareyin · 5th April 2023, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I don't give a **** about his motives. I care about whether it IS fair. I think it is.

Of course you think DeSantis' antibusiness actions were fair...just as you would be 100% opposed to them had a Democratic Governor tried such an end around of the law.

Ziggurat · 5th April 2023, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Of course you think DeSantis' antibusiness actions were fair...

"anti-business"? How is it anti-business? Businesses aren't entitled to special districts. And Disney isn't entitled to more special district independence than every other business in Florida.

Quote:

just as you would be 100% opposed to them had a Democratic Governor tried such an end around of the law.

End run around the law? You are deeply confused. If anything, the RCID itself was an end run around the law, a special exception to the law that no other business got. Making Disney subject to the same laws as everyone else isn't an end run around the law.

Seeing the libs simp for big corporations to try to own DeSantis is hilarious. Stop trying to cosplay Ayn Rand, it's just embarrassing.

wareyin · 5th April 2023, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

"anti-business"? How is it anti-business? Businesses aren't entitled to special districts. And Disney isn't entitled to more special district independence than every other business in Florida.

Your feigned ignorance that this is a specific reaction to a public stance taken by Disney is cute, but not a good argument.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

End run around the law? You are deeply confused. If anything, the RCID itself was an end run around the law, a special exception to the law that no other business got. Making Disney subject to the same laws as everyone else isn't an end run around the law.

Seeing the libs simp for big corporations to try to own DeSantis is hilarious. Stop trying to cosplay Ayn Rand, it's just embarrassing.

Your pretense that you know the law better than the high powered Disney lawyers is also cute, but is still not a good argument.

We all know that if DeSantis had a D next to his name you would suddenly understand that a Governor trying to punish a business for publicly disagreeing with him wasn't a good thing.

Ziggurat · 5th April 2023, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

Your feigned ignorance that this is a specific reaction to a public stance taken by Disney is cute, but not a good argument.

Oh, I never said it wasn't anti-Disney. But that wasn't your claim. You claimed it was anti-business. That's a conflation I don't accept.

Quote:

Your pretense that you know the law better than the high powered Disney lawyers is also cute, but is still not a good argument.

Straw man. I never claimed to know the law better than Disney's lawyers. But again, since you obviously missed it the first time and were too clueless to realize this on your own, Iger's spontaneous response to a shareholder question wasn't written by lawyers. It wasn't approved by lawyers. It wasn't screened by lawyers. What he said doesn't reflect what they know. If I'm right that he ****** up, that has nothing to do with Disney's lawyers not being good at their job. So your own claim that my claim depends on Disney's lawyers being bad is patently nonsense, and you should be embarrassed for trying to make it.

Quote:

We all know that if DeSantis had a D next to his name you would suddenly understand that a Governor trying to punish a business for publicly disagreeing with him wasn't a good thing.

When all you have is a complaint about my alleged motives, you don't have anything.

wareyin · 5th April 2023, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Oh, I never said it wasn't anti-Disney. But that wasn't your claim. You claimed it was anti-business. That's a conflation I don't accept.

A state governor trying to get revenge on a business for using their freedom of speech is anti-business. That you pretend it's ok because it's Disney says more about your partisan motives than anything else.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Straw man. I never claimed to know the law better than Disney's lawyers. But again, since you obviously missed it the first time and were too clueless to realize this on your own, Iger's spontaneous response to a shareholder question wasn't written by lawyers. It wasn't approved by lawyers. It wasn't screened by lawyers. What he said doesn't reflect what they know. If I'm right that he ****** up, that has nothing to do with Disney's lawyers not being good at their job. So your own claim that my claim depends on Disney's lawyers being bad is patently nonsense, and you should be embarrassed for trying to make it.

You keep switching the goalposts between RCID and Iger's comments. Perhaps you're confusing yourself here, but not anyone else.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

When all you have is a complaint about my alleged motives, you don't have anything.

I wasn't complaining about your motives, I was laughing about how transparently partisan they were. I thought that should have been clear enough even to you, what with the "if he had a D next to his name" and the laughing emoji, but yet again I have overestimated your reading comprehension level.

Ziggurat · 5th April 2023, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

A state governor trying to get revenge on a business for using their freedom of speech is anti-business.

And what does that "revenge" consist of?

Depriving Disney of special privileges it shouldn't have had in the first place.

Yeah, I'm OK with that.

Quote:

You keep switching the goalposts between RCID and Iger's comments. Perhaps you're confusing yourself here, but not anyone else.

Iger's comments were an admission that Disney controls the RCID. These aren't separate issues. Duh.

Quote:

I wasn't complaining about your motives, I was laughing about how transparently partisan they were.

Still just an attack on motives, nothing of substance.

wareyin · 5th April 2023, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

And what does that "revenge" consist of?

Depriving Disney of special privileges it shouldn't have had in the first place.

Yeah, I'm OK with that.

I know you're ok with authoritarian, anti-business, petty revenge actions taken by a government official, so long as that official is a Republican. That's not in question.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Iger's comments were an admission that Disney controls the RCID. These aren't separate issues. Duh.

Dude, just go back and reread your blather that the RCID was an endrun around the law, and figure out if that was what you wanted to say, or not. Your constant attempts to change the topic aren't doing you any favors.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Still just an attack on motives, nothing of substance.

It's not an attack. We all knew that if bobthecoward chimed in, it was going to be semantic drivel designed to kill the conversation. If you chime in, it's to say every action taken ever by a Republican was good, legal, and just, even if you'd previously condemned that exact action taken by anyone else. It's a 'water is wet' statement.

Ziggurat · 5th April 2023, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by wareyin

I know you're ok with authoritarian, anti-business, petty revenge actions taken by a government official, so long as that official is a Republican. That's not in question.

"Authoritarian"? Because Disney must now obey all the same laws and regulations that everyone else has to obey?

Way to lower the bar there.

wareyin · 5th April 2023, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

"Authoritarian"? Because Disney must now obey all the same laws and regulations that everyone else has to obey?

Way to lower the bar there.

You still haven't caught on that this is a government official changing the laws in retribution for criticism of him?

quadraginta · 5th April 2023, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

"Authoritarian"? Because Disney must now obey all the same laws and regulations that everyone else has to obey?

Way to lower the bar there.

What legal barriers prevented other businesses from engaging in similar arrangements if they had something of sufficient value to offer?

Ziggurat · 5th April 2023, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

What legal barriers prevented other businesses from engaging in similar arrangements if they had something of sufficient value to offer?

The RCID was created specifically by an act of the Florida legislature. Only a legislative act could create another such entity. The legislature has never granted any other company the same benefits, and is unlikely to ever do so again.

jadebox · 5th April 2023, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

What legal barriers prevented other businesses from engaging in similar arrangements if they had something of sufficient value to offer?

None. There are over 1000 special tax districts in Florida.

Edit: Almost 2000.

wareyin · 5th April 2023, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by jadebox

None. There are over 1000 special tax districts in Florida.

Edit: Almost 2000.

Reports seem to vary between 1844 and "over 1900".

The new law affects 5 of the special tax districts.

Thus ends Zig's claim that attacking Disney by changing the law to only affect them and a few others out of 1900 special districts is only fair and puts Disney on par with every other business.

Ziggurat · 5th April 2023, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by jadebox

None. There are over 1000 special tax districts in Florida.

Edit: Almost 2000.

Depends what you mean by "similar". RCID was not the only special district, but it was unique among special districts.

bruto · 5th April 2023, 01:34 PM

Unlike Ziggurat, I'm not really all that interested in whether or not it's fair. My guess is that the whole thing was unfair from the start, at least to someone, and whatever else is done, it will likely be unfair to someone else. But we're talking about Disney here, and I suspect the real issue will come down to what is legal. And I'm tentatively betting (no money, no loss if wrong) that the Mouse knows what's in the fine print, having written it.

Norman Alexander · 5th April 2023, 02:32 PM

Worth pointing out that the RCID, as well as having some say over benefits in its area of jurisdiction, still has to obey all state and local laws as well. It doesn't get a free pass to do scamming, criming, hooliganism and pollution just because it is RCID. It is not a state unto itself.

Sure, RCID is a business opportunity and a money-spinner. Disneyworld has been there for decades, and plenty of local people have benefited from it. If it was a business failure or a burden on the local populace then it would not have lasted so long. DeSantis hates it solely because Disney stood up to his fascist anti-LGBTI laws. But he also wants to get in on that sweet, sweet income stream. Now just put those two points together and you can see why DeSantis is being so dickish, and why the Mouse will win.

acbytesla · 5th April 2023, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

"Authoritarian"? Because Disney must now obey all the same laws and regulations that everyone else has to obey?

Way to lower the bar there.

Yes. It's wrong for Disney to utter the word gay. They must be as bigoted and hateful as all Florida citizens.

Stacyhs · 6th April 2023, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

Unlike Ziggurat, I'm not really all that interested in whether or not it's fair. My guess is that the whole thing was unfair from the start, at least to someone, and whatever else is done, it will likely be unfair to someone else. But we're talking about Disney here, and I suspect the real issue will come down to what is legal. And I'm tentatively betting (no money, no loss if wrong) that the Mouse knows what's in the fine print, having written it.

I'll bet on that, too.

Stacyhs · 6th April 2023, 06:33 PM

Have you seen the MAGA anti-DeSantis commercial?

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-pre...ntis-rcna77483

catsmate · 7th April 2023, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

The list of removed books in that article makes a very convenient list of suggested reading for parents whose minds are not filled with conservative wing-nut feces.

It may even be working toward that end. I looked up Sarah J. Maas, A Court of Thorns and Roses (the first book in a six book series which received the condemnation of the Martin County censors) in both of the libraries I subscribed to. One had twenty four copies of the ebook, all of which were being used. The other, something of a consortium of NC libraries pooling their ebooks, had twenty eight copies. All of which were also currently being used.

One thing I have found to be true to a great extent is that kids who are too young to read a particular book are also generally too young to be interested in reading it. I see no good reason to penalize those students who are progressing in maturity beyond their classmates, and every reason to encourage them.

And there is very little if anything which is going to lead them astray in any of those books. Most of them do the opposite, and tend to be morality tales of a sort. Especially the works of fiction.

OT: One Xmas I based my book acquisitions for my eldest (teenage) niece on the ALA's Most Banned Books list, minus those she had and The New Joy of Gay Sex which didn't interest her.

catsmate · 7th April 2023, 09:57 AM

A very disturbing incident from Florida, if true.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...d-ron-desantis

quadraginta · 7th April 2023, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by quadraginta

What legal barriers prevented other businesses from engaging in similar arrangements if they had something of sufficient value to offer?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The RCID was created specifically by an act of the Florida legislature. Only a legislative act could create another such entity. The legislature has never granted any other company the same benefits, and is unlikely to ever do so again.

In other words ... nothing.

Frank Newgent · 7th April 2023, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I wouldn't assume that Disney has the upper hand here. On paper, there is no legal conflict between Disney and Florida, only between the Reedy Creek Improvement District and Florida. RCID is legally supposed to be independent of Disney. If that turns out not to be the case, and Iger appears to have just admitted that it's not, that's a major problem for Disney.

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I AGREE

What exactly did Iger say that he shouldn't have?

wareyin · 7th April 2023, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Frank Newgent

What exactly did Iger say that he shouldn't have?

Anything bad about any Republican.

Frank Newgent · 7th April 2023, 12:28 PM

I don't know what Iger did that he shouldn't have but I'm pretty sure DeSantis shouldn't have done this...

Quote:

During his remarks in Michigan, Ron DeSantis confirmed that the attacks were explicitly because Disney spoke out against his bill.

“We just had to look at this and say, ‘OK, do they have a quote, First Amendment right to be advocating for gender ideology in Kindergarten? Yeah, I guess. Is that honestly faithful to their fiduciary duty to their shareholders? I don’t think so.”

DeSantis continued, “But that’s not really in my wheelhouse as Governor, but what I can tell you as Governor is that under no circumstances should the state of Florida be subsidizing woke activism by allowing them to have their own government. So we took it away.”

https://insidethemagic.net/2023/04/r...edy-creek-jh1/

Frank Newgent · 7th April 2023, 12:37 PM

DeSantis to punish taxpayers to get even with Disney.

Quote:

“But now that Disney has reopened this issue, we’re not just going to void the development agreement they tried to do, we’re going to look at things like taxes on the hotels, we’re going to look at things like tolls on the roads,” he said.

...

The Legislature passed a bill in February that stripped the company of control of the special Reedy Creek district after more than 50 years and allowed DeSantis to appoint its board. But in the last meeting of the outgoing board on Feb. 8, its members quietly approved a 30-year development agreement and restrictive covenants with Disney designed to be in place for decades.

The deals were publicly issued in legal notices, and DeSantis’ handpicked board members conceded they essentially left them powerless to manage future development.

Raising hotel taxes or putting tolls on roads will hurt consumers, not Disney, said state Rep. Anna Eskamani, D-Orlando.

“It’s hitting a point of absurdity,” she said. “It is not creating an even playing field. It’s about DeSantis looking big and bad next to Disney.”

If DeSantis wants accountability, he should urge the Legislature to pass combined reporting for corporate income taxes that would prevent corporations from using tax-avoiding accounting tricks, Eskamani said.

Disney could challenge DeSantis and the Legislature in court if they move to void the development agreement on the grounds that they are invalidating an existing contract, said Jacob Schumer, a Central Florida attorney who specializes in local government law. If lawmakers single out Disney, the corporation could also argue that the action violates the equal-protection clause, he said.

“If the Legislature is targeting an existing contract and specifically impairs the contract, that is a constitutional problem,” Schumer said. “Going back and voiding a contract would be very difficult to defend in court. I would think Disney would have a much stronger case.”

It’s also possible that the state could argue the agreement wasn’t done in accordance with state law. Schumer said he hasn’t found anything in his review that the state could use to get the contract voided.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/poli...zwa-story.html

dudalb · 7th April 2023, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I'll bet on that, too.

You know Disney employs some damn good lawyers.

dudalb · 7th April 2023, 12:44 PM

Actually the stupid crap with the special district is among the least of the bad things De Santis has done ( I think Disney never should have been given the privilages in the first place) ;His attacks on freedom of speech and his book banning are much,much, worse.

dudalb · 7th April 2023, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Frank Newgent

I don't know what Iger did that he shouldn't have but I'm pretty sure DeSantis shouldn't have done this...

Between this and what happened in Tennesee; clear that the GOP has gone fascist.

Trebuchet · 7th April 2023, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Have you seen the MAGA anti-DeSantis commercial?

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-pre...ntis-rcna77483

The awesome thing about that is Magoids lambasting DeSantis for voting agains Social Security and Medicare. Which are textbook examples of Socialism!

dudalb · 7th April 2023, 04:35 PM

ttps://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/ron...76173b0e&ei=23

ANd that sound you hear is hundreds of Florida businessmen closing their wallets as far as giving money to De Santis is concerned
His hotel tax and road toll ideas would devastate Florida business.
he has truly gone bonkers; he is alientaing his most important backers..who might not be his backers much longer.
Yes, he says he will target Disney but he will still scare the hell out of a lot of Florida businessmen for fear they might be next.
It is all bluster, though: Any such law would not survive long in court; you can't targer a specific buisness like that with Taxes or fees.

Stacyhs · 7th April 2023, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

A very disturbing incident from Florida, if true.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...d-ron-desantis

Very disturbing...if true.

Maybe De Santis meant to just have him put on a bus and shipped to NYC or DC.

Stacyhs · 7th April 2023, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

The awesome thing about that is Magoids lambasting DeSantis for voting agains Social Security and Medicare. Which are textbook examples of Socialism!

They hate socialism except where it helps their wallets.

Norman Alexander · 9th April 2023, 06:50 AM

As with all of the far-right nasties, they have no ******* idea what the word "socialism" means, nor what socialism is as a concept. It's just a handy swear-word they trot out for people, events or things they are told they don't like, same as "communist" and "COMMIE!" So they don't know that Social Security or Medicare or even funding their police and military all involve essentially socialist principles. That whooshing sound is the point going WAY over their pin heads.

bruto · 9th April 2023, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

As with all of the far-right nasties, they have no ******* idea what the word "socialism" means, nor what socialism is as a concept. It's just a handy swear-word they trot out for people, events or things they are told they don't like, same as "communist" and "COMMIE!" So they don't know that Social Security or Medicare or even funding their police and military all involve essentially socialist principles. That whooshing sound is the point going WAY over their pin heads.

I think you may be giving most leaders too much credit. If they really don't know what those words mean, they may be the bellwethers, but they're still sheep. I think they are the wolves, who know.

gnome · 9th April 2023, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

I think you may be giving most leaders too much credit. If they really don't know what those words mean, they may be the bellwethers, but they're still sheep. I think they are the wolves, who know.

I think we're seeing the rise of a strange hybrid. "Sheep" that have enough influence to gain power and promote their point of view, but also conditioned to deflect or reject information that calls it into question. Willful ignorance allowing them to become the wolves while they could pass a lie detector test, if such a thing was reliable, about how sincere they are.

quadraginta · 9th April 2023, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

I think you may be giving most leaders too much credit. If they really don't know what those words mean, they may be the bellwethers, but they're still sheep. I think they are the wolves, who know.

Carnivorous sheep?

quadraginta · 9th April 2023, 11:20 AM

Whoops.

quadraginta · 9th April 2023, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

I think we're seeing the rise of a strange hybrid. "Sheep" that have enough influence to gain power and promote their point of view, but also conditioned to deflect or reject information that calls it into question. Willful ignorance allowing them to become the wolves while they could pass a lie detector test, if such a thing was reliable, about how sincere they are.

We have it on very good authority* that lie detector tests are too unreliable, and people shouldn't take them.

(* Justice Clarence Thomas)

Of course that may only apply to Supreme Court Justice candidates, and not the hoi polloi.

lomiller · 9th April 2023, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

As with all of the far-right nasties, they have no ******* idea what the word "socialism" means, nor what socialism is as a concept. It's just a handy swear-word they trot out for people, events or things they are told they don't like, same as "communist" and "COMMIE!" So they don't know that Social Security or Medicare or even funding their police and military all involve essentially socialist principles. That whooshing sound is the point going WAY over their pin heads.

The core concept of Socialism is social ownership rather than private ownership of the means of production. A member run co-op would be socialist, so would a government run factory. Funding social services on the other hand isn't Socialist unless the government provides the service directly rather than paying a private company to do it.

Social security isn't really a service, Medicare doesn't provide medical services directly so neither of these is truly socialist in nature. Police and military services, on the other hand are provided directly by the government instead of being contracted out to private mercenaries, so i think you could make a case for them being Socialist.

FWIW DeSantis wanting government to run the improvement zone and be the provider of services to Disney is Socialist in nature, and Socialist in the worst way. The problem with government directly providing goods and services is that government failures can often make the services less efficient. In most cases this is accidental, but lets face it, providing more expensive less efficient services to Disney is the whole point.

5th April 2023, 06:22 AM	#242
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,886	Originally Posted by wareyin Of course you think DeSantis' antibusiness actions were fair... "anti-business"? How is it anti-business? Businesses aren't entitled to special districts. And Disney isn't entitled to more special district independence than every other business in Florida. Quote: just as you would be 100% opposed to them had a Democratic Governor tried such an end around of the law. End run around the law? You are deeply confused. If anything, the RCID itself was an end run around the law, a special exception to the law that no other business got. Making Disney subject to the same laws as everyone else isn't an end run around the law. Seeing the libs simp for big corporations to try to own DeSantis is hilarious. Stop trying to cosplay Ayn Rand, it's just embarrassing.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th April 2023, 07:38 AM	#244
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,886	Originally Posted by wareyin Your feigned ignorance that this is a specific reaction to a public stance taken by Disney is cute, but not a good argument. Oh, I never said it wasn't anti-Disney. But that wasn't your claim. You claimed it was anti-business. That's a conflation I don't accept. Quote: Your pretense that you know the law better than the high powered Disney lawyers is also cute, but is still not a good argument. Straw man. I never claimed to know the law better than Disney's lawyers. But again, since you obviously missed it the first time and were too clueless to realize this on your own, Iger's spontaneous response to a shareholder question wasn't written by lawyers. It wasn't approved by lawyers. It wasn't screened by lawyers. What he said doesn't reflect what they know. If I'm right that he ****** up, that has nothing to do with Disney's lawyers not being good at their job. So your own claim that my claim depends on Disney's lawyers being bad is patently nonsense, and you should be embarrassed for trying to make it. Quote: We all know that if DeSantis had a D next to his name you would suddenly understand that a Governor trying to punish a business for publicly disagreeing with him wasn't a good thing. When all you have is a complaint about my alleged motives, you don't have anything.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th April 2023, 09:16 AM	#246
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,886	Originally Posted by wareyin A state governor trying to get revenge on a business for using their freedom of speech is anti-business. And what does that "revenge" consist of? Depriving Disney of special privileges it shouldn't have had in the first place. Yeah, I'm OK with that. Quote: You keep switching the goalposts between RCID and Iger's comments. Perhaps you're confusing yourself here, but not anyone else. Iger's comments were an admission that Disney controls the RCID. These aren't separate issues. Duh. Quote: I wasn't complaining about your motives, I was laughing about how transparently partisan they were. Still just an attack on motives, nothing of substance.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th April 2023, 10:04 AM	#248
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,886	Originally Posted by wareyin I know you're ok with authoritarian, anti-business, petty revenge actions taken by a government official, so long as that official is a Republican. That's not in question. "Authoritarian"? Because Disney must now obey all the same laws and regulations that everyone else has to obey? Way to lower the bar there.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th April 2023, 10:51 AM	#250
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,840	Originally Posted by Ziggurat "Authoritarian"? Because Disney must now obey all the same laws and regulations that everyone else has to obey? Way to lower the bar there. What legal barriers prevented other businesses from engaging in similar arrangements if they had something of sufficient value to offer?
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

5th April 2023, 06:12 AM	#241
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I don't give a **** about his motives. I care about whether it IS fair. I think it is. Of course you think DeSantis' antibusiness actions were fair...just as you would be 100% opposed to them had a Democratic Governor tried such an end around of the law.

5th April 2023, 07:10 AM	#243
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by Ziggurat "anti-business"? How is it anti-business? Businesses aren't entitled to special districts. And Disney isn't entitled to more special district independence than every other business in Florida. Your feigned ignorance that this is a specific reaction to a public stance taken by Disney is cute, but not a good argument. Originally Posted by Ziggurat End run around the law? You are deeply confused. If anything, the RCID itself was an end run around the law, a special exception to the law that no other business got. Making Disney subject to the same laws as everyone else isn't an end run around the law. Seeing the libs simp for big corporations to try to own DeSantis is hilarious. Stop trying to cosplay Ayn Rand, it's just embarrassing. Your pretense that you know the law better than the high powered Disney lawyers is also cute, but is still not a good argument. We all know that if DeSantis had a D next to his name you would suddenly understand that a Governor trying to punish a business for publicly disagreeing with him wasn't a good thing.

5th April 2023, 07:50 AM	#245
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Oh, I never said it wasn't anti-Disney. But that wasn't your claim. You claimed it was anti-business. That's a conflation I don't accept. A state governor trying to get revenge on a business for using their freedom of speech is anti-business. That you pretend it's ok because it's Disney says more about your partisan motives than anything else. Originally Posted by Ziggurat Straw man. I never claimed to know the law better than Disney's lawyers. But again, since you obviously missed it the first time and were too clueless to realize this on your own, Iger's spontaneous response to a shareholder question wasn't written by lawyers. It wasn't approved by lawyers. It wasn't screened by lawyers. What he said doesn't reflect what they know. If I'm right that he **** up, that has nothing to do with Disney's lawyers not being good at their job. So your own claim that my claim depends on Disney's lawyers being bad is patently nonsense, and you should be embarrassed for trying to make it. You keep switching the goalposts between RCID and Iger's comments. Perhaps you're confusing yourself here, but not anyone else. Originally Posted by Ziggurat** When all you have is a complaint about my alleged motives, you don't have anything. I wasn't complaining about your motives, I was laughing about how transparently partisan they were. I thought that should have been clear enough even to you, what with the "if he had a D next to his name" and the laughing emoji, but yet again I have overestimated your reading comprehension level.

5th April 2023, 09:37 AM	#247
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by Ziggurat And what does that "revenge" consist of? Depriving Disney of special privileges it shouldn't have had in the first place. Yeah, I'm OK with that. I know you're ok with authoritarian, anti-business, petty revenge actions taken by a government official, so long as that official is a Republican. That's not in question. Originally Posted by Ziggurat Iger's comments were an admission that Disney controls the RCID. These aren't separate issues. Duh. Dude, just go back and reread your blather that the RCID was an endrun around the law, and figure out if that was what you wanted to say, or not. Your constant attempts to change the topic aren't doing you any favors. Originally Posted by Ziggurat Still just an attack on motives, nothing of substance. It's not an attack. We all knew that if bobthecoward chimed in, it was going to be semantic drivel designed to kill the conversation. If you chime in, it's to say every action taken ever by a Republican was good, legal, and just, even if you'd previously condemned that exact action taken by anyone else. It's a 'water is wet' statement.

5th April 2023, 10:31 AM	#249
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by Ziggurat "Authoritarian"? Because Disney must now obey all the same laws and regulations that everyone else has to obey? Way to lower the bar there. You still haven't caught on that this is a government official changing the laws in retribution for criticism of him?

5th April 2023, 11:00 AM	#251
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,886	Originally Posted by quadraginta What legal barriers prevented other businesses from engaging in similar arrangements if they had something of sufficient value to offer? The RCID was created specifically by an act of the Florida legislature. Only a legislative act could create another such entity. The legislature has never granted any other company the same benefits, and is unlikely to ever do so again.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th April 2023, 11:39 AM	#252
jadebox Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,534	Originally Posted by quadraginta What legal barriers prevented other businesses from engaging in similar arrangements if they had something of sufficient value to offer? None. There are over 1000 special tax districts in Florida. Edit: Almost 2000.
	Last edited by jadebox; 5th April 2023 at 11:41 AM.

5th April 2023, 11:52 AM	#253
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by jadebox None. There are over 1000 special tax districts in Florida. Edit: Almost 2000. Reports seem to vary between 1844 and "over 1900". The new law affects 5 of the special tax districts. Thus ends Zig's claim that attacking Disney by changing the law to only affect them and a few others out of 1900 special districts is only fair and puts Disney on par with every other business.

5th April 2023, 12:44 PM	#254
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,886	Originally Posted by jadebox None. There are over 1000 special tax districts in Florida. Edit: Almost 2000. Depends what you mean by "similar". RCID was not the only special district, but it was unique among special districts.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

5th April 2023, 01:34 PM	#255
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,758	Unlike Ziggurat, I'm not really all that interested in whether or not it's fair. My guess is that the whole thing was unfair from the start, at least to someone, and whatever else is done, it will likely be unfair to someone else. But we're talking about Disney here, and I suspect the real issue will come down to what is legal. And I'm tentatively betting (no money, no loss if wrong) that the Mouse knows what's in the fine print, having written it.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

5th April 2023, 02:32 PM	#256
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,963	Worth pointing out that the RCID, as well as having some say over benefits in its area of jurisdiction, still has to obey all state and local laws as well. It doesn't get a free pass to do scamming, criming, hooliganism and pollution just because it is RCID. It is not a state unto itself. Sure, RCID is a business opportunity and a money-spinner. Disneyworld has been there for decades, and plenty of local people have benefited from it. If it was a business failure or a burden on the local populace then it would not have lasted so long. DeSantis hates it solely because Disney stood up to his fascist anti-LGBTI laws. But he also wants to get in on that sweet, sweet income stream. Now just put those two points together and you can see why DeSantis is being so dickish, and why the Mouse will win.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

5th April 2023, 04:31 PM	#257
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 31,708	Originally Posted by Ziggurat "Authoritarian"? Because Disney must now obey all the same laws and regulations that everyone else has to obey? Way to lower the bar there. Yes. It's wrong for Disney to utter the word gay. They must be as bigoted and hateful as all Florida citizens.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

6th April 2023, 06:31 PM	#258
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 30,295	Originally Posted by bruto Unlike Ziggurat, I'm not really all that interested in whether or not it's fair. My guess is that the whole thing was unfair from the start, at least to someone, and whatever else is done, it will likely be unfair to someone else. But we're talking about Disney here, and I suspect the real issue will come down to what is legal. And I'm tentatively betting (no money, no loss if wrong) that the Mouse knows what's in the fine print, having written it. I'll bet on that, too.

6th April 2023, 06:33 PM	#259
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 30,295	Have you seen the MAGA anti-DeSantis commercial? https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-pre...ntis-rcna77483

7th April 2023, 09:57 AM	#260
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,602	Originally Posted by quadraginta The list of removed books in that article makes a very convenient list of suggested reading for parents whose minds are not filled with conservative wing-nut feces. It may even be working toward that end. I looked up Sarah J. Maas, A Court of Thorns and Roses (the first book in a six book series which received the condemnation of the Martin County censors) in both of the libraries I subscribed to. One had twenty four copies of the ebook, all of which were being used. The other, something of a consortium of NC libraries pooling their ebooks, had twenty eight copies. All of which were also currently being used. One thing I have found to be true to a great extent is that kids who are too young to read a particular book are also generally too young to be interested in reading it. I see no good reason to penalize those students who are progressing in maturity beyond their classmates, and every reason to encourage them. And there is very little if anything which is going to lead them astray in any of those books. Most of them do the opposite, and tend to be morality tales of a sort. Especially the works of fiction. OT: One Xmas I based my book acquisitions for my eldest (teenage) niece on the ALA's Most Banned Books list, minus those she had and The New Joy of Gay Sex which didn't interest her.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

7th April 2023, 09:57 AM	#261
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,602	A very disturbing incident from Florida, if true. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...d-ron-desantis
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

7th April 2023, 10:18 AM	#262
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,840	Originally Posted by quadraginta What legal barriers prevented other businesses from engaging in similar arrangements if they had something of sufficient value to offer? Originally Posted by Ziggurat The RCID was created specifically by an act of the Florida legislature. Only a legislative act could create another such entity. The legislature has never granted any other company the same benefits, and is unlikely to ever do so again. In other words ... nothing.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

7th April 2023, 12:03 PM	#264
wareyin Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 11,828	Originally Posted by Frank Newgent What exactly did Iger say that he shouldn't have? Anything bad about any Republican.

7th April 2023, 12:28 PM	#265
Frank Newgent Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 7,074	I don't know what Iger did that he shouldn't have but I'm pretty sure DeSantis shouldn't have done this... Quote: During his remarks in Michigan, Ron DeSantis confirmed that the attacks were explicitly because Disney spoke out against his bill. “We just had to look at this and say, ‘OK, do they have a quote, First Amendment right to be advocating for gender ideology in Kindergarten? Yeah, I guess. Is that honestly faithful to their fiduciary duty to their shareholders? I don’t think so.” DeSantis continued, “But that’s not really in my wheelhouse as Governor, but what I can tell you as Governor is that under no circumstances should the state of Florida be subsidizing woke activism by allowing them to have their own government. So we took it away.” https://insidethemagic.net/2023/04/r...edy-creek-jh1/
	__________________ Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski

7th April 2023, 12:37 PM	#266
Frank Newgent Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 7,074	DeSantis to punish taxpayers to get even with Disney. Quote: “But now that Disney has reopened this issue, we’re not just going to void the development agreement they tried to do, we’re going to look at things like taxes on the hotels, we’re going to look at things like tolls on the roads,” he said. ... The Legislature passed a bill in February that stripped the company of control of the special Reedy Creek district after more than 50 years and allowed DeSantis to appoint its board. But in the last meeting of the outgoing board on Feb. 8, its members quietly approved a 30-year development agreement and restrictive covenants with Disney designed to be in place for decades. The deals were publicly issued in legal notices, and DeSantis’ handpicked board members conceded they essentially left them powerless to manage future development. Raising hotel taxes or putting tolls on roads will hurt consumers, not Disney, said state Rep. Anna Eskamani, D-Orlando. “It’s hitting a point of absurdity,” she said. “It is not creating an even playing field. It’s about DeSantis looking big and bad next to Disney.” If DeSantis wants accountability, he should urge the Legislature to pass combined reporting for corporate income taxes that would prevent corporations from using tax-avoiding accounting tricks, Eskamani said. Disney could challenge DeSantis and the Legislature in court if they move to void the development agreement on the grounds that they are invalidating an existing contract, said Jacob Schumer, a Central Florida attorney who specializes in local government law. If lawmakers single out Disney, the corporation could also argue that the action violates the equal-protection clause, he said. “If the Legislature is targeting an existing contract and specifically impairs the contract, that is a constitutional problem,” Schumer said. “Going back and voiding a contract would be very difficult to defend in court. I would think Disney would have a much stronger case.” It’s also possible that the state could argue the agreement wasn’t done in accordance with state law. Schumer said he hasn’t found anything in his review that the state could use to get the contract voided. https://www.orlandosentinel.com/poli...zwa-story.html
	__________________ Disturbances of the semantic reactions in connection with faulty education and ignorance must be considered as sub-microscopic colloidal lesions - Alfred O. Korzybski

7th April 2023, 12:42 PM	#267
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 58,605	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I'll bet on that, too. You know Disney employs some damn good lawyers.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

7th April 2023, 12:44 PM	#268
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 58,605	Actually the stupid crap with the special district is among the least of the bad things De Santis has done ( I think Disney never should have been given the privilages in the first place) ;His attacks on freedom of speech and his book banning are much,much, worse.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

7th April 2023, 12:44 PM	#269
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 58,605	Originally Posted by Frank Newgent I don't know what Iger did that he shouldn't have but I'm pretty sure DeSantis shouldn't have done this... Between this and what happened in Tennesee; clear that the GOP has gone fascist.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

7th April 2023, 03:03 PM	#270
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,519	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Have you seen the MAGA anti-DeSantis commercial? https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-pre...ntis-rcna77483 The awesome thing about that is Magoids lambasting DeSantis for voting agains Social Security and Medicare. Which are textbook examples of Socialism!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

7th April 2023, 04:35 PM	#271
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 58,605	ttps://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/ron...76173b0e&ei=23 ANd that sound you hear is hundreds of Florida businessmen closing their wallets as far as giving money to De Santis is concerned His hotel tax and road toll ideas would devastate Florida business. he has truly gone bonkers; he is alientaing his most important backers..who might not be his backers much longer. Yes, he says he will target Disney but he will still scare the hell out of a lot of Florida businessmen for fear they might be next. It is all bluster, though: Any such law would not survive long in court; you can't targer a specific buisness like that with Taxes or fees.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 7th April 2023 at 05:43 PM.

7th April 2023, 11:30 PM	#272
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 30,295	Originally Posted by catsmate A very disturbing incident from Florida, if true. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...d-ron-desantis Very disturbing...if true. Maybe De Santis meant to just have him put on a bus and shipped to NYC or DC.

7th April 2023, 11:33 PM	#273
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 30,295	Originally Posted by Trebuchet The awesome thing about that is Magoids lambasting DeSantis for voting agains Social Security and Medicare. Which are textbook examples of Socialism! They hate socialism except where it helps their wallets.

9th April 2023, 06:50 AM	#274
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,963	As with all of the far-right nasties, they have no ******* idea what the word "socialism" means, nor what socialism is as a concept. It's just a handy swear-word they trot out for people, events or things they are told they don't like, same as "communist" and "COMMIE!" So they don't know that Social Security or Medicare or even funding their police and military all involve essentially socialist principles. That whooshing sound is the point going WAY over their pin heads.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

9th April 2023, 09:40 AM	#275
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,758	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander As with all of the far-right nasties, they have no ******* idea what the word "socialism" means, nor what socialism is as a concept. It's just a handy swear-word they trot out for people, events or things they are told they don't like, same as "communist" and "COMMIE!" So they don't know that Social Security or Medicare or even funding their police and military all involve essentially socialist principles. That whooshing sound is the point going WAY over their pin heads. I think you may be giving most leaders too much credit. If they really don't know what those words mean, they may be the bellwethers, but they're still sheep. I think they are the wolves, who know.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

9th April 2023, 10:27 AM	#276
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,741	Originally Posted by bruto I think you may be giving most leaders too much credit. If they really don't know what those words mean, they may be the bellwethers, but they're still sheep. I think they are the wolves, who know. I think we're seeing the rise of a strange hybrid. "Sheep" that have enough influence to gain power and promote their point of view, but also conditioned to deflect or reject information that calls it into question. Willful ignorance allowing them to become the wolves while they could pass a lie detector test, if such a thing was reliable, about how sincere they are.
	__________________