[Continuation] Transwomen are not women - part XI - Page 8

Emily's Cat · 28th February 2023, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

According to a Pew poll from 2016, most women think that transgender people should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender with which they identify.

I would imagine that number has gone up since 2016, and will continue to do so.

According to a 2020 poll of the British public, that only holds true until you tell females that the majority of those transwomen are still in possession of a twig and giggle-berries.

If you leave your survey respondents with the impression that we're talking about "old school" transsexuals who have had genital surgery, you get a very different response than when you tell them that over 80% of current transwomen still have their penis and testicles and have no intention whatsoever of removing them.

d4m10n · 28th February 2023, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Rolfe

So someone has stuck it to J K Rowling by (checks notes) paying money for a copy of the game, then destroying it.

ROFL.

Our copy (which my daughter is playing right now) was downloaded directly to the drive of a later model XBOX with no disc-reader. It would be quite a sacrifice to destroy such a machine in protest, but here's hoping someone gives it a go.

In vaguely related JKR news, the third episode of The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling just dropped today. It is about what you'd imagine it is about, and thus on topic here.

Paul2 · 28th February 2023, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

*sigh*
And transgender people should not have to go through some sort of clinical assessment & diagnosis before they can be "confirmed" as transgender. End of.

One could agree with that in principle but still see problems as to how that is going to get implemented, given that non-trans-people can abuse the lack of any clinical or official means to segregate people in changing rooms, etc. And those problems may need to be addressed by compromising the principle that would otherwise stand.

I make rules for my students to follow all the time that they should not have to go through merely because I know there will be some students that would abuse the lack of such rules, and ruin it for everyone (in the classic formulation).

Do not construe this as an argument for some medical or clinical confirmation of trans status. I am not saying here what a reasonable compromise might be, or that one even exists. Just that doing so is at least acceptable in other realms, and so can't be off the table here.

Wildy · 1st March 2023, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The reason the whole "Hardy-har I identity as an attack helicopter" (Which yes I find insufferable, I hate it when one side of a discussion only has one joke) thing got so much traction is because we keep getting told "Oh there's more the being trans then just saying you're trans" and we're still waiting to hear what that is.

"No you don't just have to say you are trans. You have to actually identify as trans."
"That's the same thing."
"Okay but you have to actually really live as a trans person."
"That's the same thing."

At the time of the attack helicopter stuff started the missing thing was "having dysphoria". The idea that you could just claim to be trans but have no desire to actually change to the gender you claim to be. In the case of your example discussion the line "Okay but you have to actually really live as a trans person" would probably be better represented as "Okay but you have to actually really live as a [man/woman]".

As an aside: I don't know exactly where "attack helicopter" came from. I do know that it was used to mock people on places like Tumblr where many subcommunities had a social hierarchy where the more oppressed you were in the real world the more authority you would hold in the community. This led to people creating outlandish identities in order show how "oppressed" they were.

Aber · 1st March 2023, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

I was referring to EC's fictional transdar,

Human face recognition (without clues like hairstyle etc) is c 95% accurate; females are better at it than males. Accuracy improves if people can see the full body and how it moves.

eg https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...r_fig4_8460447

Aber · 1st March 2023, 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

According to a Pew poll from 2016, most women think that transgender people should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender with which they identify.

Poll results vary depending on what question is asked; and especially when it is clarified whether males have had surgery or not. See reference to UK surveys above.

Pixel42 · 1st March 2023, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

In the case of your example discussion the line "Okay but you have to actually really live as a trans person" would probably be better represented as "Okay but you have to actually really live as a [man/woman]".

But what does that actually entail? What do you have to be doing to count as "living as" a particular gender? Other than using the facilities reserved for that gender?

As a female engineer I have fought against gender stereotyping all my life. I have always preferred to wear trousers (far more comfortable and practical than skirts and dresses), never worn makeup (it mystifies me why anyone would want to smear gunk on their face), put career over family (not difficult as I never had the slightest desire to marry or have children). Some might say I have lived as a man for all my 69 years. Does that make me a trans man? Because I certainly do not identify as one.

Lplus · 1st March 2023, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

At the time of the attack helicopter stuff started the missing thing was "having dysphoria". The idea that you could just claim to be trans but have no desire to actually change to the gender you claim to be. In the case of your example discussion the line "Okay but you have to actually really live as a trans person" would probably be better represented as "Okay but you have to actually really live as a [man/woman]".

As an aside: I don't know exactly where "attack helicopter" came from. I do know that it was used to mock people on places like Tumblr where many subcommunities had a social hierarchy where the more oppressed you were in the real world the more authority you would hold in the community. This led to people creating outlandish identities in order show how "oppressed" they were.

Sounds like the "Progressive Stack" mentioned several pages ago.

katy_did · 1st March 2023, 03:35 AM

Very curious to know which mainstream medical authorities agree with LJ on the following:

- Gender dysphoria can be caused by other people's attitudes to a person's trans identity:

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Eh? Suppose somebody assigned female at birth (we'll call this person Jane, and assume that he hasn't yet transitioned and changed his name) has got to the age of 26 and has realised that he has transgender identity, that he identifies as the gender "man". This causes Jane a debilitating internal conflict concerning the risks/implications of transition: what would his parents think if he told them about his transgender identity? What would his friends say? What would his employer say (he's a teacher)? This conflict is known as gender dysphoria.

- Someone without gender dysphoria should have access to medication and surgery as part of their transition:

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

He feels entirely happy and comfortable with the prospect of inhabiting his trans gender, and doesn't worry about what family/friends/employer might think or say. He visits gender identity clinicians - but not for diagnosis/treatment of gender dysphoria (because he doesn't suffer from gender dysphoria). He goes because those clinicians can potentially help him (should he require their help) with medication and/or surgery as part of his transition.

Zara's case is what transgender identity in the absence of gender dysphoria means, and why it deserves accommodation.

Are there any reputable medical authorities that would provide hormones and surgery to a person not suffering from gender dysphoria? LJ, how would such a person go about accessing clinical treatment?

Elaedith · 1st March 2023, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by katy_did

Very curious to know which mainstream medical authorities agree with LJ on the following:

- Gender dysphoria can be caused by other people's attitudes to a person's trans identity:

- Someone without gender dysphoria should have access to medication and surgery as part of their transition:

Are there any reputable medical authorities that would provide hormones and surgery to a person not suffering from gender dysphoria? LJ, how would such a person go about accessing clinical treatment?

Actually, many gender clinicians in the US especially, do now say that even minors should have access to medical transition without having gender dysphoria. For example the guest blogger on 'science-based medicine' who runs a gender affirmation clinic.
Whether or not you would call them reputable is another matter. The same person has twice posted a claim that puberty blockers have been shown to have no effect on brain development, and supported it with a link to an article that actually says we don't know if puberty blockers affect brain development because there are no long-term studies. I would be very interested to know what they are actually telling their patients about risks.

katy_did · 1st March 2023, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by Elaedith

Actually, many gender clinicians in the US especially, do now say that even minors should have access to medical transition without having gender dysphoria. For example the guest blogger on 'science-based medicine' who runs a gender affirmation clinic.
Whether or not you would call them reputable is another matter. The same person has twice posted a claim that puberty blockers have been shown to have no effect on brain development, and supported it with a link to an article that actually says we don't know if puberty blockers affect brain development because there are no long-term studies. I would be very interested to know what they are actually telling their patients about risks.

Thanks. Wonder if this is another situation where the US is diverging from Europe - I know the NHS does require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for any sort of clinical pathway, and I think even private clinics in the UK usually do as well. Having seen some of the gender surgeons in the US advertising their services on TikTok, I'm not wholly surprised they'd provide surgery on demand without a diagnosis (though as you say, whether they count as reputable is another matter!).

Elaedith · 1st March 2023, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by katy_did

Thanks. Wonder if this is another situation where the US is diverging from Europe - I know the NHS does require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for any sort of clinical pathway, and I think even private clinics in the UK usually do as well. Having seen some of the gender surgeons in the US advertising their services on TikTok, I'm not wholly surprised they'd provide surgery on demand without a diagnosis (though as you say, whether they count as reputable is another matter!).

They also promote the idea that there is no need to do screening for mental health disorders before transition, because this implies that transgender identity is the 'product of a disorder', which is transphobic. In addition, if an adolescent girl has something like an eating disorder as well as a self-diagnosis of gender dysphoria or trans identity, the eating disorder must be a consequence of being trans (e.g. anorexia is an attempt to avoid breast development), rather than a risk factor for misinterpreting the reason for bodily distress. Therefore you should go ahead with affirmation and transition. How do we know that an adolescent's anorexia is really a symptom of being trans rather than the other way around? Because they say so (social media sites instruct them what to say), and people know who they are.

It really is that bad in the US. There will be increasing divergence with other countries, although the fact that papers like the NYT are now starting to report on this may help.

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 06:29 AM

Yes Progressive arguments depend too much on victim ranking.

Also water is wet and fire is hot.

Ranking people on how much a victim they are what Progressivism is.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

But you yourself repeatedly insist that the science is settled. You've used the claim that the science is settled as a hammer with which to whack your interlocutors in this thread.

I'm surprised by your apparent confusion here.

It's really very simple:

Yes, the science is settled with respect to transgender identity being a valid condition (and as such, it is no longer viewed as a mental health disorder or the product/symptom of a mental health disorder).

The issue around minors presenting with gender dysphoria and/or transgender identity is entirely to do with whether those presentations are going to manifest themselves as a deep-seated identity persisting into adulthood, or whether the person is going through a passing phase and turns out not to have transgender identity as they progress into adulthood.

The clear aim of the medical community is to provide minors with the help, support and therapies/treatments which meet their needs and are for the good of their health. The matter at hand is: how do clinicians get as close as possible to assessing whether any given minor sitting in front of them who presents with transgender identity is either a) "genuinely" transgender in the longer term (in which case it's absolutely correct to offer the person affirmative treatment/therapy), or b) merely going through a "phase" of believing they have transgender identity (in which case it would be detrimental in the longer term were affirmative therapies/treatments - especially if they were irreversible or only partially-reversible - to be given to the person).

To reiterate, therefore: the issue over the reality, validity and sincerity of transgender identity is settled - it's agreed by the entirety of mainstream medicine that transgender identity is absolutely not a mental health disorder (as opposed to, for example, identifying as an attack helicopter, which is considered to be a mental health disorder).

And the issue regarding minors has nothing whatsoever to do with the underlying validity of transgender identity. Rather, it's entirely to do with trying to assess whether any given minor who identifies as transgender is going to retain that identity into adulthood - evidence shows that some minors do not. The problem is around trying to best differentiate - for any given minor - which "camp" they should belong within (and therefore which type of treatment/therapy is right for them).

Currently, there's an insufficient body of evidence regarding long-term outcomes of people who presented with transgender identity when they were minors. And therefore, clinicians do not yet have any kind of solid, statistically-supported means of matching optimal treatment/therapy (which essentially means either a) affirmative treatment or b) watch and wait) to each given transgender minor. But as the evidence base grows, clinicians should be able to get closer to identifying the distinction and thus making fewer errors (here, "errors" means either 1) not providing affirmative treatments/therapies as soon as practicable to transgender minors who turn out to have settled transgender identity into adulthood, or 2) providing affirmative treatments/therapies to transgender minors who turn out to have only had transient transgender identity which does not persist into adulthood).

Hope that helps.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by crazycat

In the real world that's often not what happens. The offended women complain to the management and the management tell them that "that's the law now". (The law that your supposed experts made)

In real life. the offended women change their routines so that they don't have to be in that situation again - they change at home or don't use the offending facility, or just stop doing whatever activity they were doing there.

In real life, women tend to avoid confrontation and leave the scene. It would take a very brave woman indeed to actually bring criminal charges against the offending man. (Even a crime as serious as rape isn't often reported)

Perverts know this very well and have a good idea of just how far they can push women.

Nobody is claiming that transwomen are perverts. What has been said countless times is that self-ID allows perverts to enter women-only spaces by claiming that they are transwomen.

Does the trans community really want to have these perverts prentending to be trans?

No, of course they don't.

But neither do transgender people want to have to undergo a clinical assessment and diagnosis in order to confer upon them "official" transgender status.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Are you aware that describing homosexuality as being a "state of mind" is the entirety of the argument in support of conversion therapy for homosexuals?

It's not a "state of mind", it's "wiring in the brain".

FFS, this is like saying that my being epileptic is a "state of mind". No, it bloody well isn't a "state of mind".

Cambridge dictionary:

Obviously I'm not using the term "state of mind" in its colloquial meaning as you've pointed to here.

I'm using it in its meaning of "mental state" - ie a condition which exists within the brain function, as opposed to a physiological non-mental condition.

But I suspect you knew that already.

Ziggurat · 1st March 2023, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Yes, the science is settled with respect to transgender identity being a valid condition (and as such, it is no longer viewed as a mental health disorder or the product/symptom of a mental health disorder).

The science cannot be settled on that, because it's not a scientific claim. Nothing about it is falsifiable.

Quote:

The clear aim of the medical community is to provide minors with the help, support and therapies/treatments which meet their needs and are for the good of their health.

That's not clear at all. We have lots of examples of the medical community just pushing kids through the treatment pipeline without taking any real time to determine that the proposed treatment really is the best option.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I really find it weird that in support of transgender policy, you end up defining homosexuality as an "identity", rather than a state of being based on neurological wiring.

LJ, have you ever looked into what an identity is, from the perspective of psychology? Is specify psychology, because legal identity is something else altogether - in legal terms, identity is the means by which other people discern that you are who you say you are and aren't fraudulent.

Do you think that homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is not part of a person's innate identity?

And yes, yes I have.

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

But neither do transgender people want to have to undergo a clinical assessment and diagnosis in order to confer upon them "official" transgender status.

You keep get angry that people say "You can just say your transgender and poof that makes it true" and then you keep saying stuff like that.

Which is it?

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Do you think that homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is not part of a person's innate identity?

Yes but being gay is more than saying "I'm gay."

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I very strongly disagree with your perspective on this. How well one aligns with a set of stereotypes does NOT define what sex a person is. Nor does it determine whether or not an individual is tansgender.

Your definition forcible requires that icons like Prince, Annie Lennox, David Bowie, and Grace Jones be viewed as "transgender". In fact, your definition changes MY gender, as well as the large numbers of gender nonconforming males and females across the globe. Furthermore, it makes a person's "gender" something that is fluid depending on which country they are in at the time.

Your definition makes regressive social stereotypes prescriptive.

Well I suggest you're better off taking this up with APA, and/or any of the other mainstream medical institutions around the world (which is all of the mainstream medical institutions around the world).

I realise that you think you're correct in your understanding of transgender identity. But your understanding is in direct opposition with the entire mainstream medical community.

I know whom I choose to side with.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I've been in all male bathrooms, locker rooms, and open floor military barracks my entire life and I haven't seen as many flopping penises as apparently going to see sharing the bathroom with a transperson for 30 seconds.

Indeed.

Did anyone shout "MORAL PANIC!!!!!!!!!"?

Wildy · 1st March 2023, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

But what does that actually entail? What do you have to be doing to count as "living as" a particular gender? Other than using the facilities reserved for that gender?

In the context of the rest of what I wrote, part of what this would entail is an active attempt to pass as the gender the person would be transitioning to. As I was talking about the "attack helicopter" meme, one of the underlying assumptions there is that gender dysphoria is a necessary part to being trans. The meme itself was used to mock people who were adopting identities through online self-id which was seen as insincere and appropriation of trans identity by people who were actually cis.

Quote:

As a female engineer I have fought against gender stereotyping all my life. I have always preferred to wear trousers (far more comfortable and practical than skirts and dresses), never worn makeup (it mystifies me why anyone would want to smear gunk on their face), put career over family (not difficult as I never had the slightest desire to marry or have children). Some might say I have lived as a man for all my 69 years. Does that make me a trans man? Because I certainly do not identify as one.

Then you aren't one. As I said, in terms of the "attack helicopter" stuff, you would need to be experiencing dysphoria in order to be considered a trans man. The way a lot of this stuff is viewed now, if you wanted to you could claim to be a trans man if you felt that identity fits you better than "woman".

Originally Posted by Lplus

Sounds like the "Progressive Stack" mentioned several pages ago.

Sort of. It was a fusion of that and the "oppression olympics" as the more oppressed you were considered the more valid your viewpoints were. Which just encouraged people to find all the ways the were privileged/disprivileged while deliberately ignoring wealth.

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:32 AM

"Living as a gender" is just "identifying as" a gender with extra steps.

"Identifying as a gender" is just "Saying I'm a gender because I say so" with no extra steps.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot

According to a Pew poll from 2016, most women think that transgender people should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender with which they identify.

I would imagine that number has gone up since 2016, and will continue to do so.

That's odd then - because I was under the impression that Emily's Cat spoke for all women. That's certainly the impression that her posts portray. But it looks like the evidence shows my assumption here to be incorrect....

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

The science cannot be settled on that, because it's not a scientific claim. Nothing about it is falsifiable.

Nothing is falsifiable about homosexuality being considered a valid condition, rather than a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder.

Do you believe homosexuality is a valid condition, or do you believe it is a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder?

Do you believe that the science is (and can justifiably be) settled on considering homosexuality to be a valid condition, rather than a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder?

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"Living as a gender" is just "identifying as" a gender with extra steps.

"Identifying as a gender" is just "Saying I'm a gender because I say so" with no extra steps.

No, no it's not. You're entirely failing to consider the person's actual sense of identity.

For example, I am not transgender. I could announce that I was transgender, but that wouldn't automatically mean (per your claim) that I am transgender. Because I'm not transgender.

Whereas when a transgender person announces that they are transgender, they do so because they do have an actual sense of identity which is transgender.

There's a difference between the two.

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Do you believe homosexuality is a valid condition, or do you believe it is a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder?

Yes because if a man goes "I'm gay" yet never has sex with other men, never is sexually attracted to men, is never in a romantic relationship with women, but still insists they are gay we could go "No, you're not gay." Or if that's too strong for we could at least go "Okay either you're not communicating well, or using gay in some new way I'm not understanding."

Being gay is falsifiable. Being trans is not. This is not a minor difference I'm in the wrong for continually bringing up.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Yes but being gay is more than saying "I'm gay."

Why is it? That's a ridiculous thing to say.

Some gay people never manifest their homosexuality in any "observable" way: they never profess romantic or sexual attractions to anyone else, they never have homosexual intimate contact with anyone else.

So for those sorts of gay people, how is their being gay anything more than saying "I'm gay"? (per your interpretation)

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:46 AM

[quote=JoeMorgue;14019589]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

Do you believe homosexuality is a valid condition, or do you believe it is a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder?/QUOTE]

Yes because if a man goes "I'm gay" yet never has sex with other men, never is sexually attracted to men, is never in a romantic relationship with women, but still insists they are gay we could go "No, you're not gay." Or if that's too strong for we could at least go "Okay either you're not communicating well, or using gay in some new way I'm not understanding."

Being gay is falsifiable. Being trans is not. This is not a minor difference I'm in the wrong for continually bringing up.

In what way is being gay falsifiable, in a differential way to transgender identity?

(you've messed up your quote function, by the way...)

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

No, no it's not. You're entirely failing to consider the person's actual sense of identity..

"Sense of identity" is literally the same thing as "What I say I am."

Keep rewording the same thing over and over, you'll get their eventually.

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

(you've messed up your quote function, by the way...)

Yeah accidently deleted a bracket, it's fixed now.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

You keep get angry that people say "You can just say your transgender and poof that makes it true" and then you keep saying stuff like that.

Which is it?

I think you're not understanding this correctly.

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

In what way is being gay falsifiable, in a differential way to transgender identity?

Do you just not read parts of posts that literally explain the thing you just asked?

You have DO things to be gay, not just go "I'm gay." I literally spelled it out in the post you quoted. How did you NOT read it?

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

I think you're not understanding this correctly.

Yes because I don't understand the difference between a cheeseburger and hamburger with cheese.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

"Sense of identity" is literally the same thing as "What I say I am."

Keep rewording the same thing over and over, you'll get their eventually.

No. I could announce "I am an Egyptian Pharoah from the First Dynasty". That doesn't make me an Egyptian Pharaoh from the First Dynasty.

And I'll get their what, eventually? What are they going to give to me?

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Do you just not read parts of posts that literally explain the thing you just asked?

You have DO things to be gay, not just go "I'm gay." I literally spelled it out in the post you quoted. How did you NOT read it?

I invite you to think more carefully about this statement.

And to think about it in conjunction with my post #311.

Hopefully the penny will drop.

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

No. I could announce "I am an Egyptian Pharoah from the First Dynasty". That doesn't make me an Egyptian Pharaoh from the First Dynasty.

But if you say "I'm a transgender Egyptian Pharaoh from the First Dynasty" the transgender part is still obviously correct and true, right?

That's my point. You keep pretending to not hear it.

LondonJohn · 1st March 2023, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

But if you say "I'm a transgender Egyptian Pharaoh from the First Dynasty" the transgender part is still obviously correct and true, right?

That's my point. You keep pretending to not hear it.

I'm not sure you understand the matter at hand here.

Anyhow, back to proper work now. Enjoy!

JoeMorgue · 1st March 2023, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by LondonJohn

I invite you to think more carefully about this statement.

And to think about it in conjunction with my post #311.

Hopefully the penny will drop.

I already made the "If a transgender falls in the forest but there's nobody around to see them do they still have a gender identity" point, I'm not making it again.

The absurd lengths we're being asked to account for difference that aren't differences here.

If the gay person is never gay in any outward way, what are we even talking about?

Listen to me. We are DONE talking about hypothetical people who exist nowhere but their own minds.

28th February 2023, 03:06 PM	#281
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 19,642	Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot According to a Pew poll from 2016, most women think that transgender people should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender with which they identify. I would imagine that number has gone up since 2016, and will continue to do so. According to a 2020 poll of the British public, that only holds true until you tell females that the majority of those transwomen are still in possession of a twig and giggle-berries. If you leave your survey respondents with the impression that we're talking about "old school" transsexuals who have had genital surgery, you get a very different response than when you tell them that over 80% of current transwomen still have their penis and testicles and have no intention whatsoever of removing them.
	__________________ The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian

28th February 2023, 03:45 PM	#282
d4m10n Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 10,906	Originally Posted by Rolfe So someone has stuck it to J K Rowling by (checks notes) paying money for a copy of the game, then destroying it. ROFL. Our copy (which my daughter is playing right now) was downloaded directly to the drive of a later model XBOX with no disc-reader. It would be quite a sacrifice to destroy such a machine in protest, but here's hoping someone gives it a go. In vaguely related JKR news, the third episode of The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling just dropped today. It is about what you'd imagine it is about, and thus on topic here.
	__________________ Just reread theprestige's signature; still cannot recall anything about it.

28th February 2023, 04:25 PM	#283
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,792	Originally Posted by LondonJohn sigh And transgender people should not have to go through some sort of clinical assessment & diagnosis before they can be "confirmed" as transgender. End of. One could agree with that in principle but still see problems as to how that is going to get implemented, given that non-trans-people can abuse the lack of any clinical or official means to segregate people in changing rooms, etc. And those problems may need to be addressed by compromising the principle that would otherwise stand. I make rules for my students to follow all the time that they should not have to go through merely because I know there will be some students that would abuse the lack of such rules, and ruin it for everyone (in the classic formulation). Do not construe this as an argument for some medical or clinical confirmation of trans status. I am not saying here what a reasonable compromise might be, or that one even exists. Just that doing so is at least acceptable in other realms, and so can't be off the table here.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,792	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

1st March 2023, 12:50 AM	#284
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,712	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The reason the whole "Hardy-har I identity as an attack helicopter" (Which yes I find insufferable, I hate it when one side of a discussion only has one joke) thing got so much traction is because we keep getting told "Oh there's more the being trans then just saying you're trans" and we're still waiting to hear what that is. "No you don't just have to say you are trans. You have to actually identify as trans." "That's the same thing." "Okay but you have to actually really live as a trans person." "That's the same thing." At the time of the attack helicopter stuff started the missing thing was "having dysphoria". The idea that you could just claim to be trans but have no desire to actually change to the gender you claim to be. In the case of your example discussion the line "Okay but you have to actually really live as a trans person" would probably be better represented as "Okay but you have to actually really live as a [man/woman]". As an aside: I don't know exactly where "attack helicopter" came from. I do know that it was used to mock people on places like Tumblr where many subcommunities had a social hierarchy where the more oppressed you were in the real world the more authority you would hold in the community. This led to people creating outlandish identities in order show how "oppressed" they were.
	__________________

1st March 2023, 01:17 AM	#285
Aber Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,018	Originally Posted by Upchurch I was referring to EC's fictional transdar, Human face recognition (without clues like hairstyle etc) is c 95% accurate; females are better at it than males. Accuracy improves if people can see the full body and how it moves. eg https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...r_fig4_8460447
Aber Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,018	Last edited by Aber; 1st March 2023 at 01:23 AM.

1st March 2023, 01:20 AM	#286
Aber Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,018	Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot According to a Pew poll from 2016, most women think that transgender people should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender with which they identify. Poll results vary depending on what question is asked; and especially when it is clarified whether males have had surgery or not. See reference to UK surveys above.
Aber Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,018	Last edited by Aber; 1st March 2023 at 01:21 AM. Reason: Ninjas

1st March 2023, 01:23 AM	#287
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 15,448	Originally Posted by Wildy In the case of your example discussion the line "Okay but you have to actually really live as a trans person" would probably be better represented as "Okay but you have to actually really live as a [man/woman]". But what does that actually entail? What do you have to be doing to count as "living as" a particular gender? Other than using the facilities reserved for that gender? As a female engineer I have fought against gender stereotyping all my life. I have always preferred to wear trousers (far more comfortable and practical than skirts and dresses), never worn makeup (it mystifies me why anyone would want to smear gunk on their face), put career over family (not difficult as I never had the slightest desire to marry or have children). Some might say I have lived as a man for all my 69 years. Does that make me a trans man? Because I certainly do not identify as one.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

1st March 2023, 01:51 AM	#288
Lplus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,720	Originally Posted by Wildy At the time of the attack helicopter stuff started the missing thing was "having dysphoria". The idea that you could just claim to be trans but have no desire to actually change to the gender you claim to be. In the case of your example discussion the line "Okay but you have to actually really live as a trans person" would probably be better represented as "Okay but you have to actually really live as a [man/woman]". As an aside: I don't know exactly where "attack helicopter" came from. I do know that it was used to mock people on places like Tumblr where many subcommunities had a social hierarchy where the more oppressed you were in the real world the more authority you would hold in the community. This led to people creating outlandish identities in order show how "oppressed" they were. Sounds like the "Progressive Stack" mentioned several pages ago.
Lplus Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 1,720

1st March 2023, 03:35 AM	#289
katy_did Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,218	Very curious to know which mainstream medical authorities agree with LJ on the following: - Gender dysphoria can be caused by other people's attitudes to a person's trans identity: Originally Posted by LondonJohn Eh? Suppose somebody assigned female at birth (we'll call this person Jane, and assume that he hasn't yet transitioned and changed his name) has got to the age of 26 and has realised that he has transgender identity, that he identifies as the gender "man". This causes Jane a debilitating internal conflict concerning the risks/implications of transition: what would his parents think if he told them about his transgender identity? What would his friends say? What would his employer say (he's a teacher)? This conflict is known as gender dysphoria. - Someone without gender dysphoria should have access to medication and surgery as part of their transition: Originally Posted by LondonJohn He feels entirely happy and comfortable with the prospect of inhabiting his trans gender, and doesn't worry about what family/friends/employer might think or say. He visits gender identity clinicians - but not for diagnosis/treatment of gender dysphoria (because he doesn't suffer from gender dysphoria). He goes because those clinicians can potentially help him (should he require their help) with medication and/or surgery as part of his transition. Zara's case is what transgender identity in the absence of gender dysphoria means, and why it deserves accommodation. Are there any reputable medical authorities that would provide hormones and surgery to a person not suffering from gender dysphoria? LJ, how would such a person go about accessing clinical treatment?
katy_did Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,218

1st March 2023, 03:52 AM	#290
Elaedith Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,486	Originally Posted by katy_did Very curious to know which mainstream medical authorities agree with LJ on the following: - Gender dysphoria can be caused by other people's attitudes to a person's trans identity: - Someone without gender dysphoria should have access to medication and surgery as part of their transition: Are there any reputable medical authorities that would provide hormones and surgery to a person not suffering from gender dysphoria? LJ, how would such a person go about accessing clinical treatment? Actually, many gender clinicians in the US especially, do now say that even minors should have access to medical transition without having gender dysphoria. For example the guest blogger on 'science-based medicine' who runs a gender affirmation clinic. Whether or not you would call them reputable is another matter. The same person has twice posted a claim that puberty blockers have been shown to have no effect on brain development, and supported it with a link to an article that actually says we don't know if puberty blockers affect brain development because there are no long-term studies. I would be very interested to know what they are actually telling their patients about risks.
Elaedith Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,486	__________________ "The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." - Salman Rushdie.

1st March 2023, 05:44 AM	#291
katy_did Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,218	Originally Posted by Elaedith Actually, many gender clinicians in the US especially, do now say that even minors should have access to medical transition without having gender dysphoria. For example the guest blogger on 'science-based medicine' who runs a gender affirmation clinic. Whether or not you would call them reputable is another matter. The same person has twice posted a claim that puberty blockers have been shown to have no effect on brain development, and supported it with a link to an article that actually says we don't know if puberty blockers affect brain development because there are no long-term studies. I would be very interested to know what they are actually telling their patients about risks. Thanks. Wonder if this is another situation where the US is diverging from Europe - I know the NHS does require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for any sort of clinical pathway, and I think even private clinics in the UK usually do as well. Having seen some of the gender surgeons in the US advertising their services on TikTok, I'm not wholly surprised they'd provide surgery on demand without a diagnosis (though as you say, whether they count as reputable is another matter!).
katy_did Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,218

1st March 2023, 06:00 AM	#292
Elaedith Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,486	Originally Posted by katy_did Thanks. Wonder if this is another situation where the US is diverging from Europe - I know the NHS does require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for any sort of clinical pathway, and I think even private clinics in the UK usually do as well. Having seen some of the gender surgeons in the US advertising their services on TikTok, I'm not wholly surprised they'd provide surgery on demand without a diagnosis (though as you say, whether they count as reputable is another matter!). They also promote the idea that there is no need to do screening for mental health disorders before transition, because this implies that transgender identity is the 'product of a disorder', which is transphobic. In addition, if an adolescent girl has something like an eating disorder as well as a self-diagnosis of gender dysphoria or trans identity, the eating disorder must be a consequence of being trans (e.g. anorexia is an attempt to avoid breast development), rather than a risk factor for misinterpreting the reason for bodily distress. Therefore you should go ahead with affirmation and transition. How do we know that an adolescent's anorexia is really a symptom of being trans rather than the other way around? Because they say so (social media sites instruct them what to say), and people know who they are. It really is that bad in the US. There will be increasing divergence with other countries, although the fact that papers like the NYT are now starting to report on this may help.
Elaedith Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,486	__________________ "The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." - Salman Rushdie.

1st March 2023, 06:29 AM	#293
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	Yes Progressive arguments depend too much on victim ranking. Also water is wet and fire is hot. Ranking people on how much a victim they are what Progressivism is.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

1st March 2023, 07:10 AM	#294
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat But you yourself repeatedly insist that the science is settled. You've used the claim that the science is settled as a hammer with which to whack your interlocutors in this thread. I'm surprised by your apparent confusion here. It's really very simple: Yes, the science is settled with respect to transgender identity being a valid condition (and as such, it is no longer viewed as a mental health disorder or the product/symptom of a mental health disorder). The issue around minors presenting with gender dysphoria and/or transgender identity is entirely to do with whether those presentations are going to manifest themselves as a deep-seated identity persisting into adulthood, or whether the person is going through a passing phase and turns out not to have transgender identity as they progress into adulthood. The clear aim of the medical community is to provide minors with the help, support and therapies/treatments which meet their needs and are for the good of their health. The matter at hand is: how do clinicians get as close as possible to assessing whether any given minor sitting in front of them who presents with transgender identity is either a) "genuinely" transgender in the longer term (in which case it's absolutely correct to offer the person affirmative treatment/therapy), or b) merely going through a "phase" of believing they have transgender identity (in which case it would be detrimental in the longer term were affirmative therapies/treatments - especially if they were irreversible or only partially-reversible - to be given to the person). To reiterate, therefore: the issue over the reality, validity and sincerity of transgender identity is settled - it's agreed by the entirety of mainstream medicine that transgender identity is absolutely *not* a mental health disorder (as opposed to, for example, identifying as an attack helicopter, which is considered to be a mental health disorder). And the issue regarding minors has nothing whatsoever to do with the underlying validity of transgender identity. Rather, it's entirely to do with trying to assess whether any given minor who identifies as transgender is going to retain that identity into adulthood - evidence shows that some minors do not. The problem is around trying to best differentiate - for any given minor - which "camp" they should belong within (and therefore which type of treatment/therapy is right for them). Currently, there's an insufficient body of evidence regarding long-term outcomes of people who presented with transgender identity when they were minors. And therefore, clinicians do not yet have any kind of solid, statistically-supported means of matching optimal treatment/therapy (which essentially means either a) affirmative treatment or b) watch and wait) to each given transgender minor. But as the evidence base grows, clinicians should be able to get closer to identifying the distinction and thus making fewer errors (here, "errors" means either 1) not providing affirmative treatments/therapies as soon as practicable to transgender minors who turn out to have settled transgender identity into adulthood, or 2) providing affirmative treatments/therapies to transgender minors who turn out to have only had transient transgender identity which does not persist into adulthood). Hope that helps.

1st March 2023, 07:13 AM	#295
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by crazycat In the real world that's often not what happens. The offended women complain to the management and the management tell them that "that's the law now". (The law that your supposed experts made) In real life. the offended women change their routines so that they don't have to be in that situation again - they change at home or don't use the offending facility, or just stop doing whatever activity they were doing there. In real life, women tend to avoid confrontation and leave the scene. It would take a very brave woman indeed to actually bring criminal charges against the offending man. (Even a crime as serious as rape isn't often reported) Perverts know this very well and have a good idea of just how far they can push women. Nobody is claiming that transwomen are perverts. What has been said countless times is that self-ID allows perverts to enter women-only spaces by claiming that they are transwomen. Does the trans community really want to have these perverts prentending to be trans? No, of course they don't. But neither do transgender people want to have to undergo a clinical assessment and diagnosis in order to confer upon them "official" transgender status.

1st March 2023, 07:18 AM	#296
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat Are you aware that describing homosexuality as being a "state of mind" is the entirety of the argument in support of conversion therapy for homosexuals? It's not a "state of mind", it's "wiring in the brain". FFS, this is like saying that my being epileptic is a "state of mind". No, it bloody well isn't a "state of mind". Cambridge dictionary: Obviously I'm not using the term "state of mind" in its colloquial meaning as you've pointed to here. I'm using it in its meaning of "mental state" - ie a condition which exists within the brain function, as opposed to a physiological non-mental condition. But I suspect you knew that already.

1st March 2023, 07:20 AM	#297
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,886	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Yes, the science is settled with respect to transgender identity being a valid condition (and as such, it is no longer viewed as a mental health disorder or the product/symptom of a mental health disorder). The science cannot be settled on that, because it's not a scientific claim. Nothing about it is falsifiable. Quote: The clear aim of the medical community is to provide minors with the help, support and therapies/treatments which meet their needs and are for the good of their health. That's not clear at all. We have lots of examples of the medical community just pushing kids through the treatment pipeline without taking any real time to determine that the proposed treatment really is the best option.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

1st March 2023, 07:20 AM	#298
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat I really find it weird that in support of transgender policy, you end up defining homosexuality as an "identity", rather than a state of being based on neurological wiring. LJ, have you ever looked into what an identity is, from the perspective of psychology? Is specify psychology, because legal identity is something else altogether - in legal terms, identity is the means by which other people discern that you are who you say you are and aren't fraudulent. Do you think that homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is *not* part of a person's innate identity? And yes, yes I have.

1st March 2023, 07:21 AM	#299
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	Originally Posted by LondonJohn But neither do transgender people want to have to undergo a clinical assessment and diagnosis in order to confer upon them "official" transgender status. You keep get angry that people say "You can just say your transgender and poof that makes it true" and then you keep saying stuff like that. Which is it?
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

1st March 2023, 07:23 AM	#300
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Do you think that homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is *not* part of a person's innate identity? Yes but being gay is more than saying "I'm gay."
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

1st March 2023, 07:23 AM	#301
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat I very strongly disagree with your perspective on this. How well one aligns with a set of stereotypes does NOT define what sex a person is. Nor does it determine whether or not an individual is tansgender. Your definition forcible requires that icons like Prince, Annie Lennox, David Bowie, and Grace Jones be viewed as "transgender". In fact, your definition changes MY gender, as well as the large numbers of gender nonconforming males and females across the globe. Furthermore, it makes a person's "gender" something that is fluid depending on which country they are in at the time. Your definition makes regressive social stereotypes *prescriptive. Well I suggest you're better off taking this up with APA, and/or any of the other mainstream medical institutions around the world (which is all* of the mainstream medical institutions around the world). I realise that you think you're correct in your understanding of transgender identity. But your understanding is in direct opposition with the entire mainstream medical community. I know whom I choose to side with.

1st March 2023, 07:24 AM	#302
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I've been in all male bathrooms, locker rooms, and open floor military barracks my entire life and I haven't seen as many flopping penises as apparently going to see sharing the bathroom with a transperson for 30 seconds. Indeed. Did anyone shout "MORAL PANIC!!!!!!!!!"?

1st March 2023, 07:26 AM	#303
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,712	Originally Posted by Pixel42 But what does that actually entail? What do you have to be doing to count as "living as" a particular gender? Other than using the facilities reserved for that gender? In the context of the rest of what I wrote, part of what this would entail is an active attempt to pass as the gender the person would be transitioning to. As I was talking about the "attack helicopter" meme, one of the underlying assumptions there is that gender dysphoria is a necessary part to being trans. The meme itself was used to mock people who were adopting identities through online self-id which was seen as insincere and appropriation of trans identity by people who were actually cis. Quote: As a female engineer I have fought against gender stereotyping all my life. I have always preferred to wear trousers (far more comfortable and practical than skirts and dresses), never worn makeup (it mystifies me why anyone would want to smear gunk on their face), put career over family (not difficult as I never had the slightest desire to marry or have children). Some might say I have lived as a man for all my 69 years. Does that make me a trans man? Because I certainly do not identify as one. Then you aren't one. As I said, in terms of the "attack helicopter" stuff, you would need to be experiencing dysphoria in order to be considered a trans man. The way a lot of this stuff is viewed now, if you wanted to you could claim to be a trans man if you felt that identity fits you better than "woman". Originally Posted by Lplus Sounds like the "Progressive Stack" mentioned several pages ago. Sort of. It was a fusion of that and the "oppression olympics" as the more oppressed you were considered the more valid your viewpoints were. Which just encouraged people to find all the ways the were privileged/disprivileged while deliberately ignoring wealth.
	__________________

1st March 2023, 07:32 AM	#304
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	"Living as a gender" is just "identifying as" a gender with extra steps. "Identifying as a gender" is just "Saying I'm a gender because I say so" with no extra steps.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

1st March 2023, 07:32 AM	#305
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot According to a Pew poll from 2016, most women think that transgender people should be allowed to use the bathroom of the gender with which they identify. I would imagine that number has gone up since 2016, and will continue to do so. That's odd then - because I was under the impression that Emily's Cat spoke for all women. That's certainly the impression that her posts portray. But it looks like the *evidence* shows my assumption here to be incorrect....

1st March 2023, 07:36 AM	#306
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by Ziggurat The science cannot be settled on that, because it's not a scientific claim. Nothing about it is falsifiable. Nothing is falsifiable about homosexuality being considered a valid condition, rather than a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder. Do you believe homosexuality is a valid condition, or do you believe it is a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder? Do you believe that the science is (and can justifiably be) settled on considering homosexuality to be a valid condition, rather than a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder?

1st March 2023, 07:40 AM	#307
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue "Living as a gender" is just "identifying as" a gender with extra steps. "Identifying as a gender" is just "Saying I'm a gender because I say so" with no extra steps. No, no it's not. You're entirely failing to consider the person's actual sense of identity. For example, I am not transgender. I could announce that I was transgender, but that wouldn't automatically mean (per your claim) that I am transgender. Because I'm not transgender. Whereas when a transgender person announces that they are transgender, they do so because they do have an actual sense of identity which is transgender. There's a difference between the two.

1st March 2023, 07:41 AM	#308
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	Originally Posted by LondonJohn Do you believe homosexuality is a valid condition, or do you believe it is a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder? Yes because if a man goes "I'm gay" yet never has sex with other men, never is sexually attracted to men, is never in a romantic relationship with women, but still insists they are gay we could go "No, you're not gay." Or if that's too strong for we could at least go "Okay either you're not communicating well, or using gay in some new way I'm not understanding." Being gay is falsifiable. Being trans is not. This is not a minor difference I'm in the wrong for continually bringing up.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 1st March 2023 at 07:46 AM.

1st March 2023, 07:44 AM	#309
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Yes but being gay is more than saying "I'm gay." Why is it? That's a ridiculous thing to say. Some gay people never manifest their homosexuality in any "observable" way: they never profess romantic or sexual attractions to anyone else, they never have homosexual intimate contact with anyone else. So for those sorts of gay people, how is their being gay anything more than saying "I'm gay"? (per your interpretation)

1st March 2023, 07:46 AM	#310
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	[quote=JoeMorgue;14019589] Originally Posted by LondonJohn Do you believe homosexuality is a valid condition, or do you believe it is a sexual deviancy and a mental health disorder?/QUOTE] Yes because if a man goes "I'm gay" yet never has sex with other men, never is sexually attracted to men, is never in a romantic relationship with women, but still insists they are gay we could go "No, you're not gay." Or if that's too strong for we could at least go "Okay either you're not communicating well, or using gay in some new way I'm not understanding." Being gay is falsifiable. Being trans is not. This is not a minor difference I'm in the wrong for continually bringing up. In what way is being gay falsifiable, in a differential way to transgender identity? (you've messed up your quote function, by the way...)

1st March 2023, 07:46 AM	#311
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	Originally Posted by LondonJohn No, no it's not. You're entirely failing to consider the person's actual sense of identity.. "Sense of identity" is literally the same thing as "What I say I am." Keep rewording the same thing over and over, you'll get their eventually.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

1st March 2023, 07:47 AM	#312
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	Originally Posted by LondonJohn (you've messed up your quote function, by the way...) Yeah accidently deleted a bracket, it's fixed now.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

1st March 2023, 07:48 AM	#313
LondonJohn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 20,425	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue You keep get angry that people say "You can just say your transgender and poof that makes it true" and then you keep saying stuff like that. Which is it? I think you're not understanding this correctly.

1st March 2023, 07:48 AM	#314
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	Originally Posted by LondonJohn In what way is being gay falsifiable, in a differential way to transgender identity? Do you just not read parts of posts that literally explain the thing you just asked? You have DO things to be gay, not just go "I'm gay." I literally spelled it out in the post you quoted. How did you NOT read it?
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

1st March 2023, 07:49 AM	#315
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 44,080	Originally Posted by LondonJohn I think you're not understanding this correctly. Yes because I don't understand the difference between a cheeseburger and hamburger with cheese.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.