[Merged] SpaceX’s Starship Rocket Explodes After Launch/Starship hop - Page 4

Airfix · 3rd March 2021, 04:52 PM

Still impressive, this is a prototype, there's bound to be flaws in the design, the whole point of testing is to find them, and fix them.

Myriad · 3rd March 2021, 06:46 PM

"But the ship can't explode!"

"She's made of explodium, sir. I assure you she can, and she will."

Meadmaker · 3rd March 2021, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Myriad

"But the ship can't explode!"

"She's made of explodium, sir. I assure you she can, and she will."

The announcer was so proud of the perfect touchdown.

The clip I saw cut off with the rocket still sitting on the pad in an unexploded state.

BenBurch · 3rd March 2021, 07:23 PM

<delurk>That was pretty awesome.</delurk>

Mike! · 4th March 2021, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

<delurk>That was pretty awesome.</delurk>

Good to see you, Ben!

crescent · 4th March 2021, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

How many tries was it before an F9 landed successfully and safely? More than three, IIRC.

They're going to need at least three more before they have enough to put together another music video.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

(Note that the video was made by SpaceX itself. They don't shy from being associated with these sorts of events)

Ziggurat · 4th March 2021, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

The announcer was so proud of the perfect touchdown.

The clip I saw cut off with the rocket still sitting on the pad in an unexploded state.

It looked like a pretty hard touchdown to me, and the rocket seemed to be leaning afterwards.

smartcooky · 4th March 2021, 12:29 PM

As usual, an excellent analysis from Scott Manley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF9mdMI1qxM

Belz... · 4th March 2021, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by crescent

Well, it (SN10) went up, came down and landed.

It did~~n't~~* blow up.

Seems like the landing legs didn't deploy, it is leaning and looks to be a little bit on fire.

Sometimes those revolutionary things come in incremental steps. This counts.

ETA: I posted too soon. It just blew up, a few minutes after landing. Had to edit the post with a bit of selective strikethrough.

I love the fact that it blew up but they consider it a success.

We don't all have the same definition of "success", I guess.

Trebuchet · 4th March 2021, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

As usual, an excellent analysis from Scott Manley

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF9mdMI1qxM

Just watched that and was going to link it if someone didn't beat me too it. Pointed out stuff I wasn't aware of yesterday.

Originally Posted by Belz...

I love the fact that it blew up but they consider it a success.

We don't all have the same definition of "success", I guess.

100% success? No. Mostly successful? Very much so. Or are you going in the direction of the Musk-hater we used to have here who declared the first Falcon Heavy flight a total failure because they didn't land the center core?

smartcooky · 4th March 2021, 01:57 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I love the fact that it blew up but they consider it a success.

We don't all have the same definition of "success", I guess.

SN10 was a test article. The object of the exercise was to show that landing the test article as planned was possible... 100% successful on that front.

These test articles are only designed to fly once, to complete the test and prove the concept. SN10 was to be dismantled, the RUD save them the job. The only thing they would have been disappointed about was wrecking their Raptor engines

smartcooky · 4th March 2021, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

100% success? No. Mostly successful? Very much so. Or are you going in the direction of the Musk-hater we used to have here who declared the first Falcon Heavy flight a total failure because they didn't land the center core?

Ahhh, Jules Galen - they failed to land the centre core so the whole flight was a failure

Belz... · 4th March 2021, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

100% success? No. Mostly successful? Very much so. Or are you going in the direction of the Musk-hater we used to have here who declared the first Falcon Heavy flight a total failure because they didn't land the center core?

Oh, sure. I'm a Musk hater because I don't view exploding rockets as successes.

I'd call it a mitigated success, or a partial success. But then, I'm not a Musk groupie.

Originally Posted by smartcooky

SN10 was a test article. The object of the exercise was to show that landing the test article as planned was possible... 100% successful on that front.

These test articles are only designed to fly once, to complete the test and prove the concept. SN10 was to be dismantled, the RUD save them the job. The only thing they would have been disappointed about was wrecking their Raptor engines

You can't possibly be serious. It exploded and it counts as being dismantled after the test?

I'm aware that it was a test. The test, presumably, included the rocket not exploding. So the test at least partially failed.

smartcooky · 4th March 2021, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

You can't possibly be serious. It exploded and it counts as being dismantled after the test?.

Of course not... lighten up a bit! You are taking yourself too seriously.

Belz... · 4th March 2021, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Of course not... lighten up a bit! You are taking yourself too seriously.

Actually, I was taking you too seriously, it seems. I'll remind you that sarcasm and tone are hard to detect in written form.

In any event, the maneuvers were impressive, but it's not like the rocket just missed the platform and landed safely a bit further off. It blew up. That's more than a minor failure, which prompted my original comment.

smartcooky · 4th March 2021, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Actually, I was taking you too seriously, it seems. I'll remind you that sarcasm and tone are hard to detect in written form.

In any event, the maneuvers were impressive, but it's not like the rocket just missed the platform and landed safely a bit further off. It blew up. That's more than a minor failure, which prompted my original comment.

Well, at least they got a free second, low altitude flight!

(for the removal of doubt, that was a joke)

Belz... · 4th March 2021, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

Well, at least they got a free second, low altitude flight!

(for the removal of doubt, that was a joke)

Yeah I kind of figured that one out for myself, but thanks. I do have my moments.

Trebuchet · 4th March 2021, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Oh, sure. I'm a Musk hater because I don't view exploding rockets as successes.

I'd call it a mitigated success, or a partial success. But then, I'm not a Musk groupie.

You can't possibly be serious. It exploded and it counts as being dismantled after the test?

I'm aware that it was a test. The test, presumably, included the rocket not exploding. So the test at least partially failed.

Note to self: There's no point arguing with Argumemnon.

Belz... · 4th March 2021, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Note to self: There's no point arguing with Argumemnon.

Oh, please. We've had discussions before and they've mostly been productive. You know I have no ill will toward you. And you do know that what you just did there is against the MA, so why do it? I'll remind you that you kind-of-but-not-really already had me labeled a hater for simply pointing out that a rocket exploding isn't much of a success, but me opining the reverse for you is beyond the pale?

How about this: what's wrong with my argument that one of the fundamental things that a rocket shouldn't do is explode?

Meadmaker · 4th March 2021, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

How about this: what's wrong with my argument that one of the fundamental things that a rocket shouldn't do is explode?

Against my better judgement, I'll actually answer that question.

What's wrong with it is that everyone agrees with you, so it would appear that you are arguing about something everyone agrees with.

On my general impression of what happened yesterday, I would tend to put it in the "failure" camp, because, explosion.

However, wearing my engineering hat, I know that something can be a very big success even if it explodes. A lot of things went right. They learned a lot about the things that they got wrong, so it's not ridiculous to call it a success, in some sense. It's just that if you try to convince people it was a success overall, the existence of gigantic unplanned fireballs makes a powerful impression that any success was, shall we say, less than complete.

Putting it a different way, there are lots of different levels of success, and the marketing department and the engineering department might disagree with what makes a successful test. However, both of them would agree that rockets should not explode.

Belz... · 4th March 2021, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Against my better judgement, I'll actually answer that question.

What's wrong with it is that everyone agrees with you, so it would appear that you are arguing about something everyone agrees with.

In that case I don't understand why my initial comment was controversial.

Roboramma · 4th March 2021, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

How about this: what's wrong with my argument that one of the fundamental things that a rocket shouldn't do is explode?

I think you have to judge a particular exercise based on the goals set out for that exercise.

When I'm teaching someone to do a handstand, one of the first things I do is to teach them to fall. During the course of a particular session we might then work on a lot of other details, like how to use the grip of the fingers control balance, the alignment of each part of the body, the right way to support and elevate from the shoulders, how to come back to balance if you do start to fall, etc.

But they're going to fall. I don't judge the success of a session based on whether or not the student fell. I judge it based on how well they learned the specific skills we were working on. If it turns out that they don't fall once during a session that would probably be a good sign, but it could also be because they're staying in their comfort zone and not working on the specific skills I'm teaching. I often tell my students "you're trying too hard not to fall".

On the other hand if they're giving a performance, falling is definitely a sign of failure.

With respect to the Starship, it's in the development phase. They're trying to learn specific lessons that can be applied to the next iteration. I think judging success or failure based on whether or not they are learning those lessons seems entirely reasonable.

Not blowing up would probably be a good sign, but I don't think it's the point here.

On the other hand once they've progressed beyond development to actually launching things into orbit, blowing up will definitely be a failure.

Belz... · 4th March 2021, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Roboramma

I think you have to judge a particular exercise based on the goals set out for that exercise.

When I'm teaching someone to do a handstand, one of the first things I do is to teach them to fall. During the course of a particular session we might then work on a lot of other details, like how to use the grip of the fingers control balance, the alignment of each part of the body, the right way to support and elevate from the shoulders, how to come back to balance if you do start to fall, etc.

But they're going to fall. I don't judge the success of a session based on whether or not the student fell. I judge it based on how well they learned the specific skills we were working on. If it turns out that they don't fall once during a session that would probably be a good sign, but it could also be because they're staying in their comfort zone and not working on the specific skills I'm teaching. I often tell my students "you're trying too hard not to fall".

On the other hand if they're giving a performance, falling is definitely a sign of failure.

With respect to the Starship, it's in the development phase. They're trying to learn specific lessons that can be applied to the next iteration. I think judging success or failure based on whether or not they are learning those lessons seems entirely reasonable.

Not blowing up would probably be a good sign, but I don't think it's the point here.

On the other hand once they've progressed beyond development to actually launching things into orbit, blowing up will definitely be a failure.

That's a very good point. But as I said, fundamentally, the last thing you want your rocket to do is explode. It's not a small matter. If I were the CEO of that company I wouldn't be happy with yesterday's events.

Meadmaker · 4th March 2021, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

That's a very good point. But as I said, fundamentally, the last thing you want your rocket to do is explode. It's not a small matter. If I were the CEO of that company I wouldn't be happy with yesterday's events.

If I were the CEO of the company, I would make sure that I told the press I was very happy with the day's events. I might even tell that to the employees, or at least some of them. It's possible I might even actually be happy with some of the day's events.

But the "boom" part would definitely put a damper on a lot of the happiness.

Belz... · 4th March 2021, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

If I were the CEO of the company, I would make sure that I told the press I was very happy with the day's events.

That, I believe! PR and reality are usually different.

Mike! · 4th March 2021, 08:12 PM

The last one crashed and blew up.
This one pretty much sort of mostly landed upright, and then sat for a bit, before it blew up.
Baby steps, people.

Hellbound · 4th March 2021, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Mike!

The last one crashed and blew up.
This one pretty much sort of mostly landed upright, and then sat for a bit, before it blew up.
Baby steps, people.

“Everyone said you can’t build a castle in the swamp...”

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Belz... · 5th March 2021, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by Mike!

The last one crashed and blew up.
This one pretty much sort of mostly landed upright, and then sat for a bit, before it blew up.
Baby steps, people.

Indeed. I just hope the manned ones won't blow up, at any point.

Darat · 5th March 2021, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Indeed. I just hope the manned ones won't blow up, at any point.

You can be certain they will.

Belz... · 5th March 2021, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

You can be certain they will.

Why do you say that? The Apollo mission launches didn't blow up, nor the Gemini or Mercury ones. If SpaceX does their homework properly there's no reason for them not to match NASA's track record.

Darat · 5th March 2021, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Why do you say that? The Apollo mission launches didn't blow up, nor the Gemini or Mercury ones. If SpaceX does their homework properly there's no reason for them not to match NASA's track record.

Because the more they fly the more times they are exposed to that 1 in a million chance. Even passenger jets still crash.

Belz... · 5th March 2021, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Because the more they fly the more times they are exposed to that 1 in a million chance. Even passenger jets still crash.

Sure, if Musk ever comes around to try to implement routine orbital flights, I'd agree. But as I mentioned, NASA has a single manned launch incident (Challenger). So it's feasible at least so long as there are few flights done with the utmost of care.

Armitage72 · 5th March 2021, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

"But the ship can't explode!"

"She's made of explodium, sir. I assure you she can, and she will."

There was a Doctor Who novel, part of the Missing Adventures series depicting events between the aired episodes, in which the First Doctor went to ancient Venus and met the Venusians for the first time. They were in the early stages of developing their space program, and couldn't figure out why their rockets kept exploding on the launch pad. It was eventually revealed that the crust of Venus was fairly metal poor, and they were building their rockets out of wood.

Captain_Swoop · 5th March 2021, 07:20 AM

What would be the point of just a few flights?

Belz... · 5th March 2021, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop

What would be the point of just a few flights?

Well, you know, just like the Mercury and Gemini and Apollo programs had specific objectives and the projects ended when those were met (and/or public interest faded). And even with further projects like today, we're a far cry from commercial launches like the airplane industry.

3point14 · 5th March 2021, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

Well, you know, just like the Mercury and Gemini and Apollo programs had specific objectives and the projects ended when those were met (and/or public interest faded). And even with further projects like today, we're a far cry from commercial launches like the airplane industry.

What's the objective of the Starship development?

Belz... · 5th March 2021, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

What's the objective of the Starship development?

I'm not saying there WILL be few flights. I'm saying that so long as it doesn't become a commercial, widely-used vehicle I wouldn't expect loss of life to occur. I've already said all that.

3point14 · 5th March 2021, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I'm not saying there WILL be few flights. I'm saying that so long as it doesn't become a commercial, widely-used vehicle I wouldn't expect loss of life to occur. I've already said all that.

But that's the actual goal of the project, to become a regular orbital service with the same reliability as an airline.

Belz... · 5th March 2021, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

But that's the actual goal of the project, to become a regular orbital service with the same reliability as an airline.

I know. So?

3point14 · 5th March 2021, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I know. So?

Okay, apparently you have a handle on it. I haven't then energy to work out why you're saying what you're saying.

Have a lovely day.

3rd March 2021, 04:52 PM	#121
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,047	Still impressive, this is a prototype, there's bound to be flaws in the design, the whole point of testing is to find them, and fix them.
Airfix Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,047

3rd March 2021, 06:46 PM	#122
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 20,166	"But the ship can't explode!" "She's made of explodium, sir. I assure you she can, and she will."
	__________________ "Except Myriad. Even Cthulhu would give him a pat on the head and an ice cream and send him to the movies while he ended the rest of the world." - Foster Zygote Last edited by Myriad; 3rd March 2021 at 06:47 PM.*

3rd March 2021, 07:18 PM	#123
Meadmaker Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 29,033	Originally Posted by Myriad "But the ship can't explode!" "She's made of explodium, sir. I assure you she can, and she will." The announcer was so proud of the perfect touchdown. The clip I saw cut off with the rocket still sitting on the pad in an unexploded state.
Meadmaker Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 29,033

3rd March 2021, 07:23 PM	#124
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,538	<delurk>That was pretty awesome.</delurk>
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

4th March 2021, 10:22 AM	#125
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 50,202	Originally Posted by BenBurch <delurk>That was pretty awesome.</delurk> Good to see you, Ben!
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

4th March 2021, 11:33 AM	#127
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,917	Originally Posted by Meadmaker The announcer was so proud of the perfect touchdown. The clip I saw cut off with the rocket still sitting on the pad in an unexploded state. It looked like a pretty hard touchdown to me, and the rocket seemed to be leaning afterwards.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

4th March 2021, 12:29 PM	#128
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,610	As usual, an excellent analysis from Scott Manley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF9mdMI1qxM
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

4th March 2021, 12:29 PM	#129
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by crescent Well, it (SN10) went up, came down and landed. It did~~n't~~* blow up. Seems like the landing legs didn't deploy, it is leaning and looks to be a little bit on fire. Sometimes those revolutionary things come in incremental steps. This counts. ETA: I posted too soon. It just blew up, a few minutes after landing. Had to edit the post with a bit of selective strikethrough. I love the fact that it blew up but they consider it a success. We don't all have the same definition of "success", I guess.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

4th March 2021, 12:47 PM	#130
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,535	Originally Posted by smartcooky As usual, an excellent analysis from Scott Manley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF9mdMI1qxM Just watched that and was going to link it if someone didn't beat me too it. Pointed out stuff I wasn't aware of yesterday. Originally Posted by Belz... I love the fact that it blew up but they consider it a success. We don't all have the same definition of "success", I guess. 100% success? No. Mostly successful? Very much so. Or are you going in the direction of the Musk-hater we used to have here who declared the first Falcon Heavy flight a total failure because they didn't land the center core?
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

4th March 2021, 01:57 PM	#131
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,610	Originally Posted by Belz... I love the fact that it blew up but they consider it a success. We don't all have the same definition of "success", I guess. SN10 was a test article. The object of the exercise was to show that landing the test article as planned was possible... 100% successful on that front. These test articles are only designed to fly once, to complete the test and prove the concept. SN10 was to be dismantled, the RUD save them the job. The only thing they would have been disappointed about was wrecking their Raptor engines
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

4th March 2021, 02:02 PM	#132
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,610	Originally Posted by Trebuchet 100% success? No. Mostly successful? Very much so. Or are you going in the direction of the Musk-hater we used to have here who declared the first Falcon Heavy flight a total failure because they didn't land the center core? Ahhh, Jules Galen - they failed to land the centre core so the whole flight was a failure
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

4th March 2021, 02:22 PM	#133
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Trebuchet 100% success? No. Mostly successful? Very much so. Or are you going in the direction of the Musk-hater we used to have here who declared the first Falcon Heavy flight a total failure because they didn't land the center core? Oh, sure. I'm a Musk hater because I don't view exploding rockets as successes. I'd call it a mitigated success, or a partial success. But then, I'm not a Musk groupie. Originally Posted by smartcooky SN10 was a test article. The object of the exercise was to show that landing the test article as planned was possible... 100% successful on that front. These test articles are only designed to fly once, to complete the test and prove the concept. SN10 was to be dismantled, the RUD save them the job. The only thing they would have been disappointed about was wrecking their Raptor engines You can't possibly be serious. It exploded and it counts as being dismantled after the test? I'm aware that it was a test. The test, presumably, included the rocket not exploding. So the test at least partially failed.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

4th March 2021, 03:11 PM	#134
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,610	Originally Posted by Belz... You can't possibly be serious. It exploded and it counts as being dismantled after the test?. Of course not... lighten up a bit! You are taking yourself too seriously.
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

4th March 2021, 03:20 PM	#135
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by smartcooky Of course not... lighten up a bit! You are taking yourself too seriously. Actually, I was taking you too seriously, it seems. I'll remind you that sarcasm and tone are hard to detect in written form. In any event, the maneuvers were impressive, but it's not like the rocket just missed the platform and landed safely a bit further off. It blew up. That's more than a minor failure, which prompted my original comment.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

4th March 2021, 03:29 PM	#136
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,610	Originally Posted by Belz... Actually, I was taking you too seriously, it seems. I'll remind you that sarcasm and tone are hard to detect in written form. In any event, the maneuvers were impressive, but it's not like the rocket just missed the platform and landed safely a bit further off. It blew up. That's more than a minor failure, which prompted my original comment. Well, at least they got a free second, low altitude flight! (for the removal of doubt, that was a joke)
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

4th March 2021, 03:35 PM	#137
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by smartcooky Well, at least they got a free second, low altitude flight! (for the removal of doubt, that was a joke) Yeah I kind of figured that one out for myself, but thanks. I do have my moments.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

4th March 2021, 03:38 PM	#138
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 36,535	Originally Posted by Belz... Oh, sure. I'm a Musk hater because I don't view exploding rockets as successes. I'd call it a mitigated success, or a partial success. But then, I'm not a Musk groupie. You can't possibly be serious. It exploded and it counts as being dismantled after the test? I'm aware that it was a test. The test, presumably, included the rocket not exploding. So the test at least partially failed. Note to self: There's no point arguing with Argumemnon.
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

4th March 2021, 03:44 PM	#139
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Trebuchet Note to self: There's no point arguing with Argumemnon. Oh, please. We've had discussions before and they've mostly been productive. You know I have no ill will toward you. And you do know that what you just did there is against the MA, so why do it? I'll remind you that you kind-of-but-not-really already had me labeled a hater for simply pointing out that a rocket exploding isn't much of a success, but me opining the reverse for you is beyond the pale? How about this: what's wrong with my argument that one of the fundamental things that a rocket shouldn't do is explode?
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

4th March 2021, 05:54 PM	#140
Meadmaker Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 29,033	Originally Posted by Belz... How about this: what's wrong with my argument that one of the fundamental things that a rocket shouldn't do is explode? Against my better judgement, I'll actually answer that question. What's wrong with it is that everyone agrees with you, so it would appear that you are arguing about something everyone agrees with. On my general impression of what happened yesterday, I would tend to put it in the "failure" camp, because, explosion. However, wearing my engineering hat, I know that something can be a very big success even if it explodes. A lot of things went right. They learned a lot about the things that they got wrong, so it's not ridiculous to call it a success, in some sense. It's just that if you try to convince people it was a success overall, the existence of gigantic unplanned fireballs makes a powerful impression that any success was, shall we say, less than complete. Putting it a different way, there are lots of different levels of success, and the marketing department and the engineering department might disagree with what makes a successful test. However, both of them would agree that rockets should not explode.
Meadmaker Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 29,033

4th March 2021, 06:26 PM	#141
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Against my better judgement, I'll actually answer that question. What's wrong with it is that everyone agrees with you, so it would appear that you are arguing about something everyone agrees with. In that case I don't understand why my initial comment was controversial.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

4th March 2021, 06:38 PM	#142
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 15,178	Originally Posted by Belz... How about this: what's wrong with my argument that one of the fundamental things that a rocket shouldn't do is explode? I think you have to judge a particular exercise based on the goals set out for that exercise. When I'm teaching someone to do a handstand, one of the first things I do is to teach them to fall. During the course of a particular session we might then work on a lot of other details, like how to use the grip of the fingers control balance, the alignment of each part of the body, the right way to support and elevate from the shoulders, how to come back to balance if you do start to fall, etc. But they're going to fall. I don't judge the success of a session based on whether or not the student fell. I judge it based on how well they learned the specific skills we were working on. If it turns out that they don't fall once during a session that would probably be a good sign, but it could also be because they're staying in their comfort zone and not working on the specific skills I'm teaching. I often tell my students "you're trying too hard not to fall". On the other hand if they're giving a performance, falling is definitely a sign of failure. With respect to the Starship, it's in the development phase. They're trying to learn specific lessons that can be applied to the next iteration. I think judging success or failure based on whether or not they are learning those lessons seems entirely reasonable. Not blowing up would probably be a good sign, but I don't think it's the point here. On the other hand once they've progressed beyond development to actually launching things into orbit, blowing up will definitely be a failure.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov Last edited by Roboramma; 4th March 2021 at 06:39 PM.

4th March 2021, 07:12 PM	#143
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Roboramma I think you have to judge a particular exercise based on the goals set out for that exercise. When I'm teaching someone to do a handstand, one of the first things I do is to teach them to fall. During the course of a particular session we might then work on a lot of other details, like how to use the grip of the fingers control balance, the alignment of each part of the body, the right way to support and elevate from the shoulders, how to come back to balance if you do start to fall, etc. But they're going to fall. I don't judge the success of a session based on whether or not the student fell. I judge it based on how well they learned the specific skills we were working on. If it turns out that they don't fall once during a session that would probably be a good sign, but it could also be because they're staying in their comfort zone and not working on the specific skills I'm teaching. I often tell my students "you're trying too hard not to fall". On the other hand if they're giving a performance, falling is definitely a sign of failure. With respect to the Starship, it's in the development phase. They're trying to learn specific lessons that can be applied to the next iteration. I think judging success or failure based on whether or not they are learning those lessons seems entirely reasonable. Not blowing up would probably be a good sign, but I don't think it's the point here. On the other hand once they've progressed beyond development to actually launching things into orbit, blowing up will definitely be a failure. That's a very good point. But as I said, fundamentally, the last thing you want your rocket to do is explode. It's not a small matter. If I were the CEO of that company I wouldn't be happy with yesterday's events.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

4th March 2021, 07:23 PM	#144
Meadmaker Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 29,033	Originally Posted by Belz... That's a very good point. But as I said, fundamentally, the last thing you want your rocket to do is explode. It's not a small matter. If I were the CEO of that company I wouldn't be happy with yesterday's events. If I were the CEO of the company, I would make sure that I told the press I was very happy with the day's events. I might even tell that to the employees, or at least some of them. It's possible I might even actually be happy with some of the day's events. But the "boom" part would definitely put a damper on a lot of the happiness.
Meadmaker Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 29,033

4th March 2021, 07:29 PM	#145
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Meadmaker If I were the CEO of the company, I would make sure that I told the press I was very happy with the day's events. That, I believe! PR and reality are usually different.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

4th March 2021, 08:12 PM	#146
Mike! Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it! Join Date: May 2010 Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not! Posts: 50,202	The last one crashed and blew up. This one pretty much sort of mostly landed upright, and then sat for a bit, before it blew up. Baby steps, people.
	__________________ "Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes... Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."

4th March 2021, 09:13 PM	#147
Hellbound Merchant of Doom Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day... Posts: 15,112	Originally Posted by Mike! The last one crashed and blew up. This one pretty much sort of mostly landed upright, and then sat for a bit, before it blew up. Baby steps, people. “Everyone said you can’t build a castle in the swamp...” Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
	__________________ History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell

5th March 2021, 04:52 AM	#148
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Mike! The last one crashed and blew up. This one pretty much sort of mostly landed upright, and then sat for a bit, before it blew up. Baby steps, people. Indeed. I just hope the manned ones won't blow up, at any point.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

5th March 2021, 05:58 AM	#149
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 109,607	Originally Posted by Belz... Indeed. I just hope the manned ones won't blow up, at any point. You can be certain they will.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

5th March 2021, 06:48 AM	#150
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Darat You can be certain they will. Why do you say that? The Apollo mission launches didn't blow up, nor the Gemini or Mercury ones. If SpaceX does their homework properly there's no reason for them not to match NASA's track record.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

5th March 2021, 06:50 AM	#151
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 109,607	Originally Posted by Belz... Why do you say that? The Apollo mission launches didn't blow up, nor the Gemini or Mercury ones. If SpaceX does their homework properly there's no reason for them not to match NASA's track record. Because the more they fly the more times they are exposed to that 1 in a million chance. Even passenger jets still crash.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

5th March 2021, 06:57 AM	#152
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Darat Because the more they fly the more times they are exposed to that 1 in a million chance. Even passenger jets still crash. Sure, if Musk ever comes around to try to implement routine orbital flights, I'd agree. But as I mentioned, NASA has a single manned launch incident (Challenger). So it's feasible at least so long as there are few flights done with the utmost of care.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward Last edited by Belz...; 5th March 2021 at 07:19 AM.

5th March 2021, 07:10 AM	#153
Armitage72 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 7,825	Originally Posted by Myriad "But the ship can't explode!" "She's made of explodium, sir. I assure you she can, and she will." There was a Doctor Who novel, part of the Missing Adventures series depicting events between the aired episodes, in which the First Doctor went to ancient Venus and met the Venusians for the first time. They were in the early stages of developing their space program, and couldn't figure out why their rockets kept exploding on the launch pad. It was eventually revealed that the crust of Venus was fairly metal poor, and they were building their rockets out of wood.

5th March 2021, 07:20 AM	#154
Captain_Swoop Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 43,373	What would be the point of just a few flights?

5th March 2021, 07:37 AM	#155
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop What would be the point of just a few flights? Well, you know, just like the Mercury and Gemini and Apollo programs had specific objectives and the projects ended when those were met (and/or public interest faded). And even with further projects like today, we're a far cry from commercial launches like the airplane industry.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

5th March 2021, 07:44 AM	#156
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 21,569	Originally Posted by Belz... Well, you know, just like the Mercury and Gemini and Apollo programs had specific objectives and the projects ended when those were met (and/or public interest faded). And even with further projects like today, we're a far cry from commercial launches like the airplane industry. What's the objective of the Starship development?
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 21,569	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]