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Old 2nd May 2023, 09:47 AM   #41
Darat
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How about admitting and acknowledging the problem to start? We can't even do that without leftists crying racism and shutting the conversation down.
Which problem - that you have a disproportionate number of gun deaths in the USA?

https://www.bradyunited.org/issue/gu...-justice-issue

Quote:
....snip...
A STRUCTURAL AND SOCIAL ISSUE

CONCENTRATED GUN HOMICIDE IS TIED CLOSELY TO URBAN POVERTY, WHICH TRACKS INEQUALITY, WHICH TRACKS SEGREGATION, WHICH TRACKS RACE.

The same cities that experience disproportionate gun homicide — Detroit, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New Orleans, Newark, St. Louis, Chicago — all have large, segregated Black communities with a history of disinvestment. This segregation and disinvestment didn’t happen by nature, but by design. "Deindustrialization, discriminatory housing practices, and white flight from neighborhoods as Black families moved in pushed large numbers of Black people into poverty, perpetuating economic inequalities between white and Black people.” Today, many metropolitan areas remain just as segregated as they were in 1968.



...snip...
The "lefties" do not try to shut down the conversation of why more black folk are killed.

Quote:
https://luskin.ucla.edu/connection-p...rearm-violence

The Connection Between Poverty, Inequality and Firearm Violence
UCLA Luskin’s Mark Kaplan explains how circumstances in U.S. urban centers go hand in hand with gun violence

...snip....

A relationship exists between the high rate of guns and gun ownership and the number of homicides, suicides and injuries. Kaplan said that work is needed “on the ground” in America’s cities, such as limiting access to guns that would “go a long way to reducing some of the fatalities that we’re experiencing both in the homicide and suicide.”...snip..
Being black does not cause the problem.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 09:48 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
Let's talk about the feasibility of disarming the U.S. denizens. It actually requires a two tier approach.

1. Rigidly control the manufacture and sale of all new firearms. This requires new legislation and active policing to make it work. Believe it or not, this is the easy bit.

2. Remove and destroy most of the firearms in circulation. You have to do both. If you don't, they will just find their way back into the hands of killers.

Any ideas how to achieve this?
Time.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 09:52 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which problem - that you have a disproportionate number of gun deaths in the USA?
...that are stunningly, overwhelmingly being fired by a very small demographic. It's not the kind of thing that can be ignored. And it's not due to poverty, as that correlation does not carry out across the demographics.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 09:52 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How about admitting and acknowledging the problem to start? We can't even do that without leftists crying racism and shutting the conversation down.
Come up with something more believable next time. You're having the conversation right now. Nobody has shut you down.

So go ahead. What's the solution?
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Old 2nd May 2023, 09:58 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How about admitting and acknowledging the problem to start? We can't even do that without leftists crying racism and shutting the conversation down.
What is the problem, specifically?

- Is it that people in poverty have higher levels of violence, regardless of their ethnicity?

- Or is it that black people are, supposedly, significantly more prone to violence than white people, regardless of factors beyond ethnicity?

I'm sure there are plenty of "leftists" on this forum who would welcome an actual discussion of the former, including how ethnic discrimination and exploitation feed into cycles of poverty, and the role of poverty in crime statistics.

But if you're trying to invite a discussion about the latter assertion while complaining that it's characterized as intrinsically racist, then you're just SOL, because that's racism in a nutshell.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:08 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
...that are stunningly, overwhelmingly being fired by a very small demographic. It's not the kind of thing that can be ignored. And it's not due to poverty, as that correlation does not carry out across the demographics.
Evidence?
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:08 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
What is the problem, specifically?

- Is it that people in poverty have higher levels of violence, regardless of their ethnicity?

- Or is it that black people are, supposedly, significantly more prone to violence than white people, regardless of factors beyond ethnicity?

I'm sure there are plenty of "leftists" on this forum who would welcome an actual discussion of the former, including how ethnic discrimination and exploitation feed into cycles of poverty, and the role of poverty in crime statistics.

But if you're trying to invite a discussion about the latter assertion while complaining that it's characterized as intrinsically racist, then you're just SOL, because that's racism in a nutshell.
Besides the two options you posed, there may be more. One that I think makes sense is that poor black communities as a whole feel cut off and disenfranchised from the mainstream culture, and the police are against them. Impoverished white communities, like Appalachia, don't view police as the enemy, not do they feel uninvited to the party.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:09 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Evidence?
Yes, and I think you are quite familiar with it.

ETA: Spark Notes version: Appalachia, 25 million strong, is 80% Whitey McWhiteface, higher poverty level than most urban areas, and has dramatically lower crime and murder rates. An area of 25 million is not exactly an outlier sampling. Poverty is not the factor. Specifically, minority poverty is, which is fueled by a variety of forces.
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Last edited by Thermal; 2nd May 2023 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:13 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, and I think you are quite familiar with it.
Haven't seen any yet.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:21 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Time.

Well, yes. Given enough time, every American will kill every other American, and the problem goes away. But that is not a practical solution.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:22 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Not all gun cultures are the same. My gun culture doesn't involve shooting pregnant women in the stomach so I can joyride her crappy car. So, no.
Ah. So it’s just your usual argument that ******* are bad
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:26 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
Well, yes. Given enough time, every American will kill every other American, and the problem goes away. But that is not a practical solution.
There isn't going to be "a" solution, not even a final solution...

It must be recognised that changes are going to take decades at least, if not generations, it's going to be hard, and people must commit to it knowing that it will take time to make significant changes that will filter through. Which is one of the reasons it isn't more mainstream in politics - politicians can't get any "reward" for making difficult decisions that take decades to bear fruit.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:27 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Haven't seen any yet.
Should you join a forum like, say, the ISF, you will see it posted many times per year on multiple discussions, so often that it should be common knowledge by now. See my edit above.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:28 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, and I think you are quite familiar with it.

ETA: Spark Notes version: Appalachia, 25 million strong, is 80% Whitey McWhiteface, higher poverty level than most urban areas, and has dramatically lower crime and murder rates. An area of 25 million is not exactly an outlier sampling. Poverty is not the factor. Specifically, minority poverty is, which is fueled by a variety of forces.
Actual statistics please.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 10:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
... , so I can still her car, is a completely different ... culture.
Wow, can you lactate that much?
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Old 2nd May 2023, 11:12 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It must be recognised that changes are going to take decades at least, if not generations, it's going to be hard, and people must commit to it knowing that it will take time to make significant changes that will filter through. Which is one of the reasons it isn't more mainstream in politics - politicians can't get any "reward" for making difficult decisions that take decades to bear fruit.

You make a good point. The highlighted is where totalitarian regimes have an advantage...
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Old 2nd May 2023, 11:17 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
If Andrew Lester was a black man, would anyone have started the "wrong door shooting" thread?

Only if the victim had been white. In that case, I'm pretty sure you would.

Quote:
Maybe I missed your protestations of racial relevance there, yes?

Maybe I never followed that thread, yes?
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Old 2nd May 2023, 11:21 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Interestingly, here in the Netherlands the non-white population tends to be poorer too. And yes, part of that is racism, though less than the US, but without the US gun culture the random mass shootings just do not seem to happen. It's almost as if a country flush with guns will tend to have lots of random shootings.

Same here .
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 2nd May 2023, 11:31 AM   #59
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Interesting Fox News poll:
Quote:
Proposals to reduce gun violence
Percent saying "Favor"

Background check for guns 87%
Enforce existing gun laws 81%
Legal age 21 to buy all guns 81%
Ban assault weapons 80%
More citizens carrying guns 45%
Fox News Realizes Republicans Are TOAST | The Kyle Kulinski Show (Secular Talk, May 2, 2023 - at 0:45)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd May 2023, 11:57 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I'm all ears, Bogative and lionking.

What should be done about it?
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How about admitting and acknowledging the problem to start? We can't even do that without leftists crying racism and shutting the conversation down.
I literally just said “I’m all ears”. Now’s your chance to say what your solution is. If it is to admit and acknowledge the problem. Don’t hide behind left-wing liberal tears. Speak your mind and spit some truths.

To paraphrase Obi-wan Kenobi and Arnie, who is the more girly man? The snowflake or the snowflake who is scared of the snowflake’s tears?
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Old 2nd May 2023, 12:23 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Interesting Fox News poll:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
If 80% of Americans support banning all AWs, why are they legal in most states? Something don't add up.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 12:42 PM   #62
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The thing that is now stuck in my head as illustrative of a different attitude to guns is the story of buying a gun to cover a particular eventuality as your existing gun didn't seem suitable (a situation which people in other countries wouldn't expect to resolve with a gun anyway) but then realising you already had another gun that would do the job and you'd simply forgotten you had it.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 12:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The thing that is now stuck in my head as illustrative of a different attitude to guns is the story of buying a gun to cover a particular eventuality as your existing gun didn't seem suitable (a situation which people in other countries wouldn't expect to resolve with a gun anyway) but then realising you already had another gun that would do the job and you'd simply forgotten you had it.
Laugh. Yes, I had the same reaction. Yet the anecdote was presented as if totally normal. Glad you highlighted the strangeness.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 01:03 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
The thing that is now stuck in my head as illustrative of a different attitude to guns is the story of buying a gun to cover a particular eventuality as your existing gun didn't seem suitable (a situation which people in other countries wouldn't expect to resolve with a gun anyway) but then realising you already had another gun that would do the job and you'd simply forgotten you had it.
Originally Posted by attempt5001 View Post
Laugh. Yes, I had the same reaction. Yet the anecdote was presented as if totally normal. Glad you highlighted the strangeness.
Come on, who doesn’t wonder how they will get the caps off their beer bottles when all they have is a pump-action shot gun, go out and buy a Walther PPK only to discover they had a perfectly serviceable WW2-issue Lugar that totally would have done the job?
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Old 2nd May 2023, 01:05 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I'm curious to know if Bogative has a solution or punishment for Black gang gun offenders that differs from non-Black gang gun offenders.
Nothing yet, I see. Just someone who likes to push the anti-Black narrative just a little longer.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 01:08 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Come on, who doesn’t wonder how they will get the caps off their beer bottles when all they have is a pump-action shot gun, go out and buy a Walther PPK only to discover they had a perfectly serviceable WW2-issue Lugar that totally would have done the job?
LOL. Ah yes. totally relatable now.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 01:55 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by BrettM View Post
Well, yes. Given enough time, every American will kill every other American, and the problem goes away. But that is not a practical solution.

Hell is other people . This is a reasonable solution.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 03:02 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
If 80% of Americans support banning all AWs, why are they legal in most states? Something don't add up.

What doesn't add up is your ideology and reality.
You seem to believe that political decisions are made by the people and not by politicians. Reality is that politicians have to make sure that people vote for them, and once in office, they make the decisions that another group of people, in the case of AWs probably the NRA and AW manufacturers, pay them to make.
That's why AWs are legal in most states. (If they actually are. I don't know if your claim is true.)

Other stuff than AWs that you would probably also say 'don't add up':
Quote:
Among the public overall, 63% of U.S. adults say the government has the responsibility to provide health care coverage for all, up slightly from 59% last year. Roughly a third (37%) say this is not the responsibility of the federal government, according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted July 27 to Aug. 2 among 11,001 adults.
Increasing share of Americans favor a single government program to provide health care coverage (Pew Research Center, Sep 29, 2020)

And how about this one?
Quote:
An Ipsos survey in August 2020 found that support for a rise in the federal minimum wage had grown substantially during the COVID-19 pandemic, with 72% of Americans in favor, including 62% of Republicans and 87% of Democrats.
Minimum wage in the United States (Wikipedia)

Then there's this one, which is very personal to me because I have many Cuban friends:
Quote:
Three-quarters of U.S. adults (75%) approve of the decision last year to re-establish U.S. relations with Cuba, while nearly as many (73%) favor ending the long-standing U.S. trade embargo against Cuba, according to a new national survey by Pew Research Center conducted Dec. 1-5.
Americans still favor ties with Cuba after Castro’s death, U.S. election (Pew Research Center, Dec 13, 2016)
You don't seem to understand how it's possible to have the voters want one thing and politicians go against their wishes. I explained it carefully, in detail, and several times in the George Santos thread.
By the way, Santos is an excellent example of U.S. American democracy: He lied to the voters about everything. It's how he got elected and got to decide.

Can you see how it all adds up now?!
Do you now understand why pronouns, Mr. Potato Head, M&Ms and the war on Xmas are such important talking points for guys like Tucker Carlsson?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd May 2023, 04:34 PM   #69
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I'd like to draw a comparison with feral cats in Australia.

The single determinant for the numbers of feral cats, is the number of adjacent pet cats.

So the way to reduce populations of feral cats is to reduce the population of pet cats.

This, of course, is not supported by cat owners.


The best way to keep guns out of the hands of (people you don't like) is to reduce the numbers held by (people you do like). Because (people you don't like) tend to get their guns by stealing them from (people you do like).

This, of course, is not supported by gun owners.

No amount of pretending not to say: "(people I don't like) are bad" will address the problem of the number of firearms available.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 04:50 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I'd like to draw a comparison with feral cats in Australia.

The single determinant for the numbers of feral cats, is the number of adjacent pet cats.

So the way to reduce populations of feral cats is to reduce the population of pet cats.

This, of course, is not supported by cat owners.


The best way to keep guns out of the hands of (people you don't like) is to reduce the numbers held by (people you do like). Because (people you don't like) tend to get their guns by stealing them from (people you do like).

This, of course, is not supported by gun owners.

No amount of pretending not to say: "(people I don't like) are bad" will address the problem of the number of firearms available.
The reality would seem to be that there will always be (people you do like) and (people you don't like). And there will always be escalations of violence from time to time in any population. So to prevent these escalations of violence becoming gun-violence disasters, it would make sense to reduce the probability of that happening by reducing the number of gun opportunities available. That is, either lock up all the guns, or have fewer of them available. And that means for both (people you do like) and (people you don't like) regardless.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 05:33 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
You don't get rid of guns but you regulate them more effectively and stringently. For example you can own a gun here in the UK but it is heavily regulated. You are making a strawman argument
I’ve been very vocal in my criticism of the US gun culture, but nothing significant will be done about it in the US. How is that a strawman? What gun regulation do you think is possible in the US?
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Old 2nd May 2023, 06:27 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’ve been very vocal in my criticism of the US gun culture, but nothing significant will be done about it in the US. How is that a strawman? What gun regulation do you think is possible in the US?
Yeah.

As far as I can see, the pro-gun people are against any form of regulation at all.
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Old 2nd May 2023, 09:09 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Yeah.

As far as I can see, the pro-gun people are against any form of regulation at all.
Mostly because they see any kind of gun regulation as punishment for law-abiding gun owners. Why should they give up their guns when they're not the problem?

Ah, gun threads just aren't the same without WildCat, Quad4_76 and Ranb. They just don't have the same... spice.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 03:17 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Actual statistics please.
Seems none are forthcoming.

Here's some:

Poverty Correlates with the Recent Increase in Gun Violence

Quote:
There was an increase in firearm homicides across the United States from 2019 to 2020. Every region experienced increases. While firearm homicide is a complex phenomenon driven by multiple factors, researchers consistently find that it is associated with measures of economic hardship. This was again observed in the recent increase in firearm homicides....snip...

Poverty Matters: A Reassessment of the Inequality-Homicide Relationship in Cross-National Studies

Quote:
...snip....

Dozens of cross-national studies of homicide have been published. Virtually all have reported an association between inequality and homicide, leading scholars to draw strong conclusions about this relationship. Unfortunately, each of these studies failed to control for poverty, even though poverty is the most consistent predictor of area homicide rates in the U.S. empirical literature ....

...snip...
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Old 3rd May 2023, 03:18 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
If 80% of Americans support banning all AWs, why are they legal in most states? Something don't add up.
You don't have nationwide referendums so there is no direct link between one single policy issue and people voting at state and national level.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 05:24 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
If 80% of Americans support banning all AWs, why are they legal in most states? Something don't add up.
It's naďve to think that the U.S. is a straight up democracy where the will of the people is so easily made law. The firearms industry uses the NRA to campaign either for or against politicians, and gerrymandering and voter suppression mean that the NRA's campaigns against anyone calling for even something as common sense as background checks and tighter regulation will be highly effective. Politicians from both parties, but especially the Republican party, know that if they call for solutions other than "more guns!" The NRA is going to pump obscene quantities of money into destroying them politically. The NRA also campaigns relentlessly to support the narrative that the only alternative to the ******* insanity we have now is for the "evul gubmint" to send in storm troopers to forcibly take away all guns just before they outlaw Christianity and force every God-fearing, red- blooded, real American to gay marry a Muslim drag queen. This assures that the minority who have been given a disproportionate amount of electoral influence will pour their support behind NRA approved candidates.

So the problem isn't with the validity of the Fox poll, which mirrors the results of many other polls, but rather with the quaint notion that the American people have any control over the corporations that own our government.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 05:37 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Actual statistics please.
Appalachia, although stats are hard to come by, does seem to have a lower crime rate, although parts are so remote it can be difficult to know if a lot of crimes are being reported. Also the last real breakdown was in 2001 and they admitted that the crime rate was rapidly growing.

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/189560.pdf

(.pdf, sorry)

That being said it overlooks a drug problem that handily beats almost all other regions, as well as a suicide rate nearly 20% above the national average.

I'm going to wonder why listing incidents off the "black crime" page of Breirtbart is somehow considered a conversation starter.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 05:40 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post

I'm going to wonder why listing incidents off the "black crime" page of Breirtbart is somehow considered a conversation starter.
It’s not that hard to find supporting research.

https://everytownresearch.org/report.../#foot_note_23

Quote:
Black children and teens in America are 17 times more likely than their white peers to die by gun homicide.21 Black children and teens are 13 times more likely to be hospitalized for a firearm assault than white children.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 05:44 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It’s not that hard to find supporting research.

https://everytownresearch.org/report.../#foot_note_23
So why start a conversation like Boagtive did? Why describe a horrific incident rather than a general discussion of black crime and possible solutions.

I don't know why you insist on carrying water for his open race baiting.
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Old 3rd May 2023, 05:45 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Mostly because they see any kind of gun regulation as punishment for law-abiding gun owners. Why should they give up their guns when they're not the problem?
Strictly anecdotally, I personally know several gun owners who very much favor an increase in gun regulations in the U.S., including background checks, stricter registration practices, and bans on assault weapons like AR-15s. One is the husband of a friend from high school. He goes hunting every deer season, often with their teenage daughter. He thinks owning assault rifles is as ridiculous as owning towed artillery pieces or shoulder-mounted anti-aircraft rockets, because there's no real non-military use for them. (And just to bust a few more stereotypes, he's also quote liberal, socially.)
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