Wrong "Store" Shooting - Page 3

Hercules56 · 3rd May 2023, 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Strictly anecdotally, I personally know several gun owners who very much favor an increase in gun regulations in the U.S., including background checks, stricter registration practices, and bans on assault weapons like AR-15s. One is the husband of a friend from high school. He goes hunting every deer season, often with their teenage daughter. He thinks owning assault rifles is as ridiculous as owning towed artillery pieces or shoulder-mounted anti-aircraft rockets, because there's no real non-military use for them. (And just to bust a few more stereotypes, he's also quote liberal, socially.)

I am a gun owner and definitely support universal background checks, permits to possess a handgun and semi-auto rifles/shotguns.

The_Animus · 3rd May 2023, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

It’s not that hard to find supporting research.

https://everytownresearch.org/report.../#foot_note_23

The point was that higher gun violence is a result of other societal factors such as poverty rather than their race. Some claimed it wasn't a result of other factors like poverty and the request was for statistics to prove that. You're link doesn't do that. In fact, right in the intro it says,

Quote:

Black and Latinx children and teens are impacted by gun violence at higher rates than their white peers, in part because of deliberate policy decisions that created segregated neighborhoods and underinvestments in their communities.

catsmate · 3rd May 2023, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by BrettM

Let's talk about the feasibility of disarming the U.S. denizens. It actually requires a two tier approach.

1. Rigidly control the manufacture and sale of all new firearms. This requires new legislation and active policing to make it work. Believe it or not, this is the easy bit.

2. Remove and destroy most of the firearms in circulation. You have to do both. If you don't, they will just find their way back into the hands of killers.

Any ideas how to achieve this?

Control, tax and regulate ammunition.

catsmate · 3rd May 2023, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Yes, and I think you are quite familiar with it.

ETA: Spark Notes version: Appalachia, 25 million strong, is 80% Whitey McWhiteface, higher poverty level than most urban areas, and has dramatically lower crime and murder rates. An area of 25 million is not exactly an outlier sampling. Poverty is not the factor. Specifically, minority poverty is, which is fueled by a variety of forces.

Population density and visible wealth disparity.

catsmate · 3rd May 2023, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Actual statistics please.

The comparison is straight off Fox news. If one compared, say, Chicago to Charleston (the largest city in West Virginia) the numbers show a far higher per-capita murder rate in

.

Thermal · 3rd May 2023, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

The comparison is straight off Fox news. If one compared, say, Chicago to Charleston (the largest city in West Virginia) the numbers show a far higher per-capita murder rate in

.

Lol. The murders on Charleston WV did indeed double recently
..from 8 per year to 16, out of population of 48,000.

https://abcnews4.com/news/local/murd...bi-police-wciv

Chicago has been named the murder capitol of the US, with a whopping 697 in 2022.

https://wirepoints.org/chicago-new-o...argest-cities/

ETA: yes, they are mathematically similar rates, but you choose a tiny noise-range "city" with a single digit increase in total murders to compare against a grown up city with several hundred murders consistently every year. And Chicago isn't even number one. Noaw'leans takes that crown, along with a bunch of others. Your "oh let's just randomly compare with some random example like Charleston" is beyond cheap, man.

Hercules56 · 3rd May 2023, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Lol. The murders on Charleston WV did indeed double recently
..from 8 per year to 16, out of population of 48,000.

https://abcnews4.com/news/local/murd...bi-police-wciv

Chicago has been named the murder capitol of the US, with a whopping 697 in 2022.

https://wirepoints.org/chicago-new-o...argest-cities/

ETA: yes, they are mathematically similar rates, but you choose a tiny noise-range "city" with a single digit increase in total murders to compare against a grown up city with several hundred murders consistently every year. And Chicago isn't even number one. Noaw'leans takes that crown, along with a bunch of others. Your "oh let's just randomly compare with some random example like Charleston" is beyond cheap, man.

Americans don't care about hard numbers!!!! 16 murders and 697 murders are the same!!! Cuz per 100,000 residents, don't ya know. I'm sure both cities feel just as dangerous.

Norman Alexander · 3rd May 2023, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Americans don't care about hard numbers!!!! 16 murders and 697 murders are the same!!! Cuz per 100,000 residents, don't ya know. I'm sure both cities feel just as dangerous.

Well, they are, by comparison.

Quote:

Sydney: NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research. apparent in the NSW murder rate (down 54% since 1990) (Figure 1). Apart from the 2017 recorded rate of 0.7 murder victims per 100,000 population, the 2019 rate of 0.9 murder victims is the lowest in the series (along with 2018 and 2016 also at 0.9).

https://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Public...2019-BB144.pdf

Thermal · 3rd May 2023, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Well, they are, by comparison.
https://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Public...2019-BB144.pdf

Ok but per Capita rates don't matter. All you guys are in a pub anyways. What matters is walking down the street, what are your odds of living to tell the tale?

NSW had a total of 81 murders per year, and Charleston only 16. That means you are like five times more likely to be a murder victim walking around down there.

It's being put up for Charleston's new slogan: "Statistically More Likely to Survive the Week Here"

Norman Alexander · 3rd May 2023, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Ok but per Capita rates don't matter. All you guys are in a pub anyways. What matters is walking down the street, what are your odds of living to tell the tale?

Living for how long?

Quote:

NSW had a total of 81 murders per year, and Charleston only 16. That means you are like five times more likely to be a murder victim walking around down there.

I guess so. Charleston is 400 km^2, NSW is 800,000 km^2. So they are comparable size.

Quote:

It's being put up for Charleston's new slogan: "Statistically More Likely to Survive the Week Here"

...than New Orleans, I guess.

catsmate · 4th May 2023, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Lol. The murders on Charleston WV did indeed double recently
..from 8 per year to 16, out of population of 48,000.

https://abcnews4.com/news/local/murd...bi-police-wciv

Chicago has been named the murder capitol of the US, with a whopping 697 in 2022.

https://wirepoints.org/chicago-new-o...argest-cities/

ETA: yes, they are mathematically similar rates, but you choose a tiny noise-range "city" with a single digit increase in total murders to compare against a grown up city with several hundred murders consistently every year. And Chicago isn't even number one. Noaw'leans takes that crown, along with a bunch of others. Your "oh let's just randomly compare with some random example like Charleston" is beyond cheap, man.

Sigh.
I chose the largest city in the region you cited. Not at all random.

BTW the city with the highest per capita homicide rate in USAia (2019 FBI data) is St. Louis, Chicago doesn't make the top ten.

Parsman · 4th May 2023, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Sigh.
I chose the largest city in the region you cited. Not at all random.

BTW the city with the highest per capita homicide rate in USAia (2019 FBI data) is St. Louis, Chicago doesn't make the top ten.

Using my right wing translator - "But Chicago, gun restrictions, it must be more dangerous than red states and cities no?"

Thermal · 4th May 2023, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Sigh.
I chose the largest city in the region you cited. Not at all random.

Bull ****. Search "largest cities in Appalachia". You get a list including Pittsburgh, Birmingham, Knoxville, Atlanta, Youngstown, Scranton, Greenville, Chattanooga, Winston-Salem, etc. Charleston doesn't even appear in the top ten. So are you choosing to be factually wrong, or is it out of your intellectual control?

Quote:

BTW the city with the highest per capita homicide rate in USAia (2019 FBI data) is St. Louis, Chicago doesn't make the top ten.

I just linked for your reading enjoyment 2022 statistics showing Noaw'leans has both higher overall murders than St Louis, as well as a staggeringly higher murder rate.

I don't care in the slightest about Chicago. You brought it up for whatever reason.

Thermal · 4th May 2023, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Living for how long?

Well let's see...16 murders a year in Charleston is a little north of one per month, assuming we are not converting to metric months. You should be able to get around for two to three weeks without getting greased, statistically. In NSW, you'd be killed at least three times in that time frame. It's just math.

Quote:

I guess so. Charleston is 400 km^2, NSW is 800,000 km^2. So they are comparable size.

I think you are using kilometers to throw me off the scent.

Quote:

...than New Orleans, I guess.

You have to pronounce it "Naow'leans", or they mark you as an outsider and kill you on general principle.

mumblethrax · 4th May 2023, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Well let's see...16 murders a year in Charleston is a little north of one per month, assuming we are not converting to metric months. You should be able to get around for two to three weeks without getting greased, statistically. It's just math.

It's innumeracy.

Thermal · 4th May 2023, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by mumblethrax

It's innumeracy.

I thought that meant talking to dead people?

lionking · 4th May 2023, 02:04 PM

I guess I did expect denial of disproportional violence in US black communities. But here’s the view of a black man, Denzel Washington.

“If the father is not home, the boy will find a father in the streets, and if the streets raise us, the judge becomes our mother and the prison becomes our home, Everything starts from home.”

Denzel was not talking about poor communities, but the black community.

Thermal · 4th May 2023, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

I guess I did expect denial of disproportional violence in US black communities. But here’s the view of a black man, Denzel Washington.

“If the father is not home, the boy will find a father in the streets, and if the streets raise us, the judge becomes our mother and the prison becomes our home, Everything starts from home.”

Denzel was not talking about poor communities, but the black community.

It'd be interesting to know if most murders by black guys were from males with no present father figure around. While single parenthood rated are known to be high in black communities, I'm not sure if Denzel's take has wide explanatory power.

Norman Alexander · 4th May 2023, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Well let's see...16 murders a year in Charleston is a little north of one per month, assuming we are not converting to metric months. You should be able to get around for two to three weeks without getting greased, statistically. In NSW, you'd be killed at least three times in that time frame. It's just math.

Quote:

I think you are using kilometers to throw me off the scent.

I'll make it easier. Charleston is 157 square miles. Texas is 270,000 square miles. NSW is 310,000 square miles. NSW population 8.2 million, which is 27 people per square mile. We live so far apart that we barely even even see each other, let alone kill each other. It's just math.

Quote:

You have to pronounce it "Naow'leans", or they mark you as an outsider and kill you on general principle.

They pronounce it "NOLA".

Darat · 4th May 2023, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

I guess I did expect denial of disproportional violence in US black communities. But here’s the view of a black man, Denzel Washington.

“If the father is not home, the boy will find a father in the streets, and if the streets raise us, the judge becomes our mother and the prison becomes our home, Everything starts from home.”

Denzel was not talking about poor communities, but the black community.

No, he was talking about poor communities in which the majority are black. Poverty and being black go hand in hand in the USA.

Thermal · 4th May 2023, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

No, he was talking about poor communities in which the majority are black. Poverty and being black go hand in hand in the USA.

Here's the original interview. He was asked whether the black community should be optimistic about change, given the state of the world. Not once was being poor mentioned, and he referenced his early life. He did not grow up poor, attending private schools.

https://thegrio.com/2017/11/21/denze...oman-j-israel/

novaphile · 4th May 2023, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Ok but per Capita rates don't matter. All you guys are in a pub anyways. What matters is walking down the street, what are your odds of living to tell the tale?

NSW had a total of 81 murders per year, and Charleston only 16. That means you are like five times more likely to be a murder victim walking around down there.

It's being put up for Charleston's new slogan: "Statistically More Likely to Survive the Week Here"

To make the comparison for danger while walking down the street, we'd need to see the deaths per capital mile.

Darat · 5th May 2023, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Here's the original interview. He was asked whether the black community should be optimistic about change, given the state of the world. Not once was being poor mentioned, and he referenced his early life. He did not grow up poor, attending private schools.

https://thegrio.com/2017/11/21/denze...oman-j-israel/

Because the two are terribly interwoven in the USA.

Gulliver Foyle · 6th May 2023, 02:31 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Does anyone not think there are multiple inputs into the problems? A major one is systemic racism over generations and of course the old perennial: poverty.

Well we do know that Bogative is firmly of the opinion that non-whites being allowed to own guns is the sole issue.

bluesjnr · 6th May 2023, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Well we do know that Bogative is firmly of the opinion that non-whites being allowed to own guns is the sole issue.

As I understand it, this is not the case he is making. He is saying that "non-whites" are a far bigger part of the "issue" than is acknowledged. He is also attempting to make the case that many mass shootings (as previously defined) carried out by "non-whites" do not receive the alarmist news reporting that is seen when it is a white shooter. I'd be happy to reassess things if you could show me where he states that "non-whites" are the "sole issue".

BrettM · 6th May 2023, 05:41 AM

Forumites like to attack the messenger and not the message.

Gulliver Foyle · 6th May 2023, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by BrettM

Forumites like to attack the messenger and not the message.

I know Bogative's message, he sings it a lot. So much so the he even places it in his avatar pic.

And it goes "white people can do no evil, non-whites can do no good".

RolandRat · 6th May 2023, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by BrettM

Forumites like to attack the messenger and not the message.

Surprising that's what you have taken from the thread. There has been a lot of discussion around the issue of the murder rate in black communities.

Bogative · 6th May 2023, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

The "lefties" do not try to shut down the conversation of why more black folk are killed.

You are correct, they work hard at shutting down the conversation about who kills more black folk.

I haven't had a chance to consume much media over the last few days, but what I have, demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about. You'd think what happened on the New York subway is the norm, when it's not. Interracial violence is almost always black-on-white, around 10:1 if I remember correctly.

Being black does not cause the problem.[/quote]I never said it did. That's more crappy mind reading on your part.

Foster Zygote · 6th May 2023, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by BrettM

Forumites like to attack the messenger and not the message.

And what is the meassage? Several have asked Bog to provide some explication of his "message", but, as with most of his other threads, he dances around the issue with a few responses and then disappears. He's been invited to talk about how racism and poverty relate to increased violence, but he never participates. He doesn't seem interested in any explanation beyond the concentration of melanin in someone's skin.

It sure seems, to many of us, that Bog's message is deeply racist - that he's trying really hard to imply that non-whites are just genetically significantly more disposed to violence. The fact that direct questions asking if that is what he means are ignored doesn't help. He's been asked, on numerous occasions, to clarify what he means and his typical response is "stop calling me a racist". The responses he does give tend to be like his avatar image, which stops just shy of, say, Obama with a bone through his nose. If he doesn't want to be perceived as a racist, maybe he should stop waddling and quacking so much.

Bogative · 6th May 2023, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by kookbreaker

So why start a conversation like Boagtive did?

To counter the openly race baiting thread titled "wrong door shooting."

Foster Zygote · 6th May 2023, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Bogative

Interracial violence is almost always black-on-white, around 10:1 if I remember correctly.

How about you provide some actual evidence proving that assertion, instead of relying on your admittedly questionable memory?

Bogative · 6th May 2023, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Well we do know that Bogative is firmly of the opinion that non-whites being allowed to own guns is the sole issue.

Evidence? Links? Quotations? No, didn't think so. Nice try though.

Bogative · 6th May 2023, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

How about you provide some actual evidence proving that assertion, instead of relying on your admittedly questionable memory?

Quote:

In 2021, 87 percent of all non-lethal interracial violent crimes committed between blacks and whites in the U.S. were black-on-white—480,030 incidents with a black offender and white victim, and 69,850 incidents with a white offender and black victim, or seven times as many black-on-white as white-on-black incidents of interracial non-lethal violence. In other words, whites have more to fear from blacks than blacks from whites, a fact contrary to the race-hustle narrative.

https://www.city-journal.org/article...tual-narrative

The video I posted in the OP is an example of what is normal when it comes to interracial violence, not the exception in cases like Ralph Yarl.

Thermal · 6th May 2023, 09:30 AM

The argument gets bantered here a lot that poverty and gang activity is the cause of disproportionately high murder rates among black people. I'm not sure adequate evidence has been presented for that, either. For instance, gang related homicides account for about 13% of all homicides (which includes white biker gangs, prison gangs, and white supremacist gangs).. The other 87% are non-gang related.

https://nationalgangcenter.ojp.gov/s...-gang-problems

The overwhelming majority of the murders in the Today's Mass Shooting thread do not mention any gang activity (I did a word search for "gang" and got no hits except posters asserting that black mass shooters were of course gang related. Which I heartily dispute).

Most of the dozens and dozens of reports describe minor altercations that escalate quickly to gunfire. Most of these are at large parties or nightclubs, hardly the Hallmark of impoverished people, even considering what the American standard for poverty means (having a car, cable tv and internet, air conditioning, cel phone, and being overweight).

I haven't found reliable statistics on poverty/murder rates, which I would expect to show that the average black shooter lives below the poverty line.

Darat · 6th May 2023, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

The argument gets bantered here a lot that poverty and gang activity is the cause of disproportionately high murder rates among black people. I'm not sure adequate evidence has been presented for that, either. For instance, gang related homicides account for about 13% of all homicides (which includes white biker gangs, prison gangs, and white supremacist gangs).. The other 87% are non-gang related.

https://nationalgangcenter.ojp.gov/s...-gang-problems

The overwhelming majority of the murders in the Today's Mass Shooting thread do not mention any gang activity (I did a word search for "gang" and got no hits except posters asserting that black mass shooters were of course gang related. Which I heartily dispute).

Most of the dozens and dozens of reports describe minor altercations that escalate quickly to gunfire. Most of these are at large parties or nightclubs, hardly the Hallmark of impoverished people, even considering what the American standard for poverty means (having a car, cable tv and internet, air conditioning, cel phone, and being overweight).

I haven't found reliable statistics on poverty/murder rates, which I would expect to show that the average black shooter lives below the poverty line.

Some links in my post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...7#post14063757

Bogative · 6th May 2023, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

I know Bogative's message, he sings it a lot. So much so the he even places it in his avatar pic.

And it goes "white people can do no evil, non-whites can do no good".

This just goes to show you don't know **** except how to be unintentionally hilarious.

RolandRat · 6th May 2023, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Bogative

https://www.city-journal.org/article...tual-narrative

The video I posted in the OP is an example of what is normal when it comes to interracial violence, not the exception in cases like Ralph Yarl.

Going by the stats listed in the source:

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv21.pdf

Black on white is around 18% and white on black is around 11%.

jimbob · 7th May 2023, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Seems none are forthcoming.

Here's some:

Poverty Correlates with the Recent Increase in Gun Violence

Poverty Matters: A Reassessment of the Inequality-Homicide Relationship in Cross-National Studies

And this correlation with violence carries over into countries as well.

Some really old graphs that I made for this forum

arthwollipot · 7th May 2023, 08:29 PM

Map of gun deaths across the U.S. shows cities have lower rates than rural counties

Quote:

The most rural counties had a 37% higher rate of firearm deaths than the most urban counties from 2011 to 2020, an analysis found.

3rd May 2023, 06:02 AM	#81
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,638	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote Strictly anecdotally, I personally know several gun owners who very much favor an increase in gun regulations in the U.S., including background checks, stricter registration practices, and bans on assault weapons like AR-15s. One is the husband of a friend from high school. He goes hunting every deer season, often with their teenage daughter. He thinks owning assault rifles is as ridiculous as owning towed artillery pieces or shoulder-mounted anti-aircraft rockets, because there's no real non-military use for them. (And just to bust a few more stereotypes, he's also quote liberal, socially.) I am a gun owner and definitely support universal background checks, permits to possess a handgun and semi-auto rifles/shotguns.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,638

3rd May 2023, 08:59 AM	#82
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,381	Originally Posted by lionking It’s not that hard to find supporting research. https://everytownresearch.org/report.../#foot_note_23 The point was that higher gun violence is a result of other societal factors such as poverty rather than their race. Some claimed it wasn't a result of other factors like poverty and the request was for statistics to prove that. You're link doesn't do that. In fact, right in the intro it says, Quote: Black and Latinx children and teens are impacted by gun violence at higher rates than their white peers, in part because of deliberate policy decisions that created segregated neighborhoods and underinvestments in their communities.
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,381	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them.

3rd May 2023, 09:25 AM	#83
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,602	Originally Posted by BrettM Let's talk about the feasibility of disarming the U.S. denizens. It actually requires a two tier approach. 1. Rigidly control the manufacture and sale of all new firearms. This requires new legislation and active policing to make it work. Believe it or not, this is the easy bit. 2. Remove and destroy most of the firearms in circulation. You have to do both. If you don't, they will just find their way back into the hands of killers. Any ideas how to achieve this? Control, tax and regulate ammunition.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

3rd May 2023, 09:27 AM	#84
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,602	Originally Posted by Thermal Yes, and I think you are quite familiar with it. ETA: Spark Notes version: Appalachia, 25 million strong, is 80% Whitey McWhiteface, higher poverty level than most urban areas, and has dramatically lower crime and murder rates. An area of 25 million is not exactly an outlier sampling. Poverty is not the factor. Specifically, minority poverty is, which is fueled by a variety of forces. Population density and visible wealth disparity.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

3rd May 2023, 09:32 AM	#85
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,602	Originally Posted by Darat Actual statistics please. The comparison is straight off Fox news. If one compared, say, Chicago to Charleston (the largest city in West Virginia) the numbers show a far higher per-capita murder rate in Charleston .
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

3rd May 2023, 10:51 AM	#86
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 22,595	Originally Posted by catsmate The comparison is straight off Fox news. If one compared, say, Chicago to Charleston (the largest city in West Virginia) the numbers show a far higher per-capita murder rate in Charleston . Lol. The murders on Charleston WV did indeed double recently ..from 8 per year to 16, out of population of 48,000. https://abcnews4.com/news/local/murd...bi-police-wciv Chicago has been named the murder capitol of the US, with a whopping 697 in 2022. https://wirepoints.org/chicago-new-o...argest-cities/ ETA: yes, they are mathematically similar rates, but you choose a tiny noise-range "city" with a single digit increase in total murders to compare against a grown up city with several hundred murders consistently every year. And Chicago isn't even number one. Noaw'leans takes that crown, along with a bunch of others. Your "oh let's just randomly compare with some random example like Charleston" is beyond cheap, man.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet Last edited by Thermal; 3rd May 2023 at 11:21 AM.

3rd May 2023, 01:41 PM	#87
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,638	Originally Posted by Thermal Lol. The murders on Charleston WV did indeed double recently ..from 8 per year to 16, out of population of 48,000. https://abcnews4.com/news/local/murd...bi-police-wciv Chicago has been named the murder capitol of the US, with a whopping 697 in 2022. https://wirepoints.org/chicago-new-o...argest-cities/ ETA: yes, they are mathematically similar rates, but you choose a tiny noise-range "city" with a single digit increase in total murders to compare against a grown up city with several hundred murders consistently every year. And Chicago isn't even number one. Noaw'leans takes that crown, along with a bunch of others. Your "oh let's just randomly compare with some random example like Charleston" is beyond cheap, man. Americans don't care about hard numbers!!!! 16 murders and 697 murders are the same!!! Cuz per 100,000 residents, don't ya know. I'm sure both cities feel just as dangerous.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,638

3rd May 2023, 07:11 PM	#88
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,963	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Americans don't care about hard numbers!!!! 16 murders and 697 murders are the same!!! Cuz per 100,000 residents, don't ya know. I'm sure both cities feel just as dangerous. Well, they are, by comparison. Quote: Sydney: NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research. apparent in the NSW murder rate (down 54% since 1990) (Figure 1). Apart from the 2017 recorded rate of 0.7 murder victims per 100,000 population, the 2019 rate of 0.9 murder victims is the lowest in the series (along with 2018 and 2016 also at 0.9). https://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Public...2019-BB144.pdf
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

3rd May 2023, 08:10 PM	#89
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 22,595	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Well, they are, by comparison. https://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Public...2019-BB144.pdf Ok but per Capita rates don't matter. All you guys are in a pub anyways. What matters is walking down the street, what are your odds of living to tell the tale? NSW had a total of 81 murders per year, and Charleston only 16. That means you are like five times more likely to be a murder victim walking around down there. It's being put up for Charleston's new slogan: "Statistically More Likely to Survive the Week Here"
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

3rd May 2023, 11:37 PM	#90
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,963	Originally Posted by Thermal Ok but per Capita rates don't matter. All you guys are in a pub anyways. What matters is walking down the street, what are your odds of living to tell the tale? Living for how long? Quote: NSW had a total of 81 murders per year, and Charleston only 16. That means you are like five times more likely to be a murder victim walking around down there. I guess so. Charleston is 400 km^2, NSW is 800,000 km^2. So they are comparable size. Quote: It's being put up for Charleston's new slogan: "Statistically More Likely to Survive the Week Here" ...than New Orleans, I guess.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

4th May 2023, 05:42 AM	#91
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,602	Originally Posted by Thermal Lol. The murders on Charleston WV did indeed double recently ..from 8 per year to 16, out of population of 48,000. https://abcnews4.com/news/local/murd...bi-police-wciv Chicago has been named the murder capitol of the US, with a whopping 697 in 2022. https://wirepoints.org/chicago-new-o...argest-cities/ ETA: yes, they are mathematically similar rates, but you choose a tiny noise-range "city" with a single digit increase in total murders to compare against a grown up city with several hundred murders consistently every year. And Chicago isn't even number one. Noaw'leans takes that crown, along with a bunch of others. Your "oh let's just randomly compare with some random example like Charleston" is beyond cheap, man. Sigh. I chose the largest city in the region you cited. Not at all random. BTW the city with the highest per capita homicide rate in USAia (2019 FBI data) is St. Louis, Chicago doesn't make the top ten.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

4th May 2023, 06:08 AM	#92
Parsman Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bonnie Scotland Posts: 947	Originally Posted by catsmate Sigh. I chose the largest city in the region you cited. Not at all random. BTW the city with the highest per capita homicide rate in USAia (2019 FBI data) is St. Louis, Chicago doesn't make the top ten. Using my right wing translator - "But Chicago, gun restrictions, it must be more dangerous than red states and cities no?"
	__________________ I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.

4th May 2023, 07:25 AM	#93
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 22,595	Originally Posted by catsmate Sigh. I chose the largest city in the region you cited. Not at all random. Bull ****. Search "largest cities in Appalachia". You get a list including Pittsburgh, Birmingham, Knoxville, Atlanta, Youngstown, Scranton, Greenville, Chattanooga, Winston-Salem, etc. Charleston doesn't even appear in the top ten. So are you choosing to be factually wrong, or is it out of your intellectual control? Quote: BTW the city with the highest per capita homicide rate in USAia (2019 FBI data) is St. Louis, Chicago doesn't make the top ten. I just linked for your reading enjoyment 2022 statistics showing Noaw'leans has both higher overall murders than St Louis, as well as a staggeringly higher murder rate. I don't care in the slightest about Chicago. You brought it up for whatever reason.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

4th May 2023, 07:57 AM	#94
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 22,595	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Living for how long? Well let's see...16 murders a year in Charleston is a little north of one per month, assuming we are not converting to metric months. You should be able to get around for two to three weeks without getting greased, statistically. In NSW, you'd be killed at least three times in that time frame. It's just math. Quote: I guess so. Charleston is 400 km^2, NSW is 800,000 km^2. So they are comparable size. I think you are using kilometers to throw me off the scent. Quote: ...than New Orleans, I guess. You have to pronounce it "Naow'leans", or they mark you as an outsider and kill you on general principle.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet Last edited by Thermal; 4th May 2023 at 09:53 AM.

4th May 2023, 08:33 AM	#95
mumblethrax Species traitor Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 3,538	Originally Posted by Thermal Well let's see...16 murders a year in Charleston is a little north of one per month, assuming we are not converting to metric months. You should be able to get around for two to three weeks without getting greased, statistically. It's just math. It's innumeracy.

4th May 2023, 08:35 AM	#96
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 22,595	Originally Posted by mumblethrax It's innumeracy. I thought that meant talking to dead people?
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

4th May 2023, 02:04 PM	#97
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 53,422	I guess I did expect denial of disproportional violence in US black communities. But here’s the view of a black man, Denzel Washington. “If the father is not home, the boy will find a father in the streets, and if the streets raise us, the judge becomes our mother and the prison becomes our home, Everything starts from home.” Denzel was not talking about poor communities, but the black community.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

4th May 2023, 02:07 PM	#98
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 22,595	Originally Posted by lionking I guess I did expect denial of disproportional violence in US black communities. But here’s the view of a black man, Denzel Washington. “If the father is not home, the boy will find a father in the streets, and if the streets raise us, the judge becomes our mother and the prison becomes our home, Everything starts from home.” Denzel was not talking about poor communities, but the black community. It'd be interesting to know if most murders by black guys were from males with no present father figure around. While single parenthood rated are known to be high in black communities, I'm not sure if Denzel's take has wide explanatory power.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

4th May 2023, 02:17 PM	#99
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,963	Originally Posted by Thermal Well let's see...16 murders a year in Charleston is a little north of one per month, assuming we are not converting to metric months. You should be able to get around for two to three weeks without getting greased, statistically. In NSW, you'd be killed at least three times in that time frame. It's just math. Quote: I think you are using kilometers to throw me off the scent. I'll make it easier. Charleston is 157 square miles. Texas is 270,000 square miles. NSW is 310,000 square miles. NSW population 8.2 million, which is 27 people per square mile. We live so far apart that we barely even even see each other, let alone kill each other. It's just math. Quote: You have to pronounce it "Naow'leans", or they mark you as an outsider and kill you on general principle. They pronounce it "NOLA".
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

4th May 2023, 03:30 PM	#100
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 109,587	Originally Posted by lionking I guess I did expect denial of disproportional violence in US black communities. But here’s the view of a black man, Denzel Washington. “If the father is not home, the boy will find a father in the streets, and if the streets raise us, the judge becomes our mother and the prison becomes our home, Everything starts from home.” Denzel was not talking about poor communities, but the black community. No, he was talking about poor communities in which the majority are black. Poverty and being black go hand in hand in the USA.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

4th May 2023, 05:07 PM	#101
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 22,595	Originally Posted by Darat No, he was talking about poor communities in which the majority are black. Poverty and being black go hand in hand in the USA. Here's the original interview. He was asked whether the black community should be optimistic about change, given the state of the world. Not once was being poor mentioned, and he referenced his early life. He did not grow up poor, attending private schools. https://thegrio.com/2017/11/21/denze...oman-j-israel/
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

4th May 2023, 07:06 PM	#102
novaphile Quester of Doglets Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sunny South Australia Posts: 4,933	Originally Posted by Thermal Ok but per Capita rates don't matter. All you guys are in a pub anyways. What matters is walking down the street, what are your odds of living to tell the tale? NSW had a total of 81 murders per year, and Charleston only 16. That means you are like five times more likely to be a murder victim walking around down there. It's being put up for Charleston's new slogan: "Statistically More Likely to Survive the Week Here" To make the comparison for danger while walking down the street, we'd need to see the deaths per capital mile.
	__________________ We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.

5th May 2023, 04:51 AM	#103
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 109,587	Originally Posted by Thermal Here's the original interview. He was asked whether the black community should be optimistic about change, given the state of the world. Not once was being poor mentioned, and he referenced his early life. He did not grow up poor, attending private schools. https://thegrio.com/2017/11/21/denze...oman-j-israel/ Because the two are terribly interwoven in the USA.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

6th May 2023, 02:31 AM	#104
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by Darat Does anyone not think there are multiple inputs into the problems? A major one is systemic racism over generations and of course the old perennial: poverty. Well we do know that Bogative is firmly of the opinion that non-whites being allowed to own guns is the sole issue.
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

6th May 2023, 04:20 AM	#105
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 11,193	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle Well we do know that Bogative is firmly of the opinion that non-whites being allowed to own guns is the sole issue. As I understand it, this is not the case he is making. He is saying that "non-whites" are a far bigger part of the "issue" than is acknowledged. He is also attempting to make the case that many mass shootings (as previously defined) carried out by "non-whites" do not receive the alarmist news reporting that is seen when it is a white shooter. I'd be happy to reassess things if you could show me where he states that "non-whites" are the "sole issue".
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

6th May 2023, 05:41 AM	#106
BrettM Scholar Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 107	Forumites like to attack the messenger and not the message.
BrettM Scholar Join Date: Jun 2022 Posts: 107

6th May 2023, 08:20 AM	#107
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,691	Originally Posted by BrettM Forumites like to attack the messenger and not the message. I know Bogative's message, he sings it a lot. So much so the he even places it in his avatar pic. And it goes "white people can do no evil, non-whites can do no good".
	__________________ Ceterum autem censeo Factio Republicanus esse delendam

6th May 2023, 08:41 AM	#108
RolandRat Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: Essex UK Posts: 1,655	Originally Posted by BrettM Forumites like to attack the messenger and not the message. Surprising that's what you have taken from the thread. There has been a lot of discussion around the issue of the murder rate in black communities.

6th May 2023, 08:55 AM	#109
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,348	Originally Posted by Darat The "lefties" do not try to shut down the conversation of why more black folk are killed. You are correct, they work hard at shutting down the conversation about who kills more black folk. I haven't had a chance to consume much media over the last few days, but what I have, demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about. You'd think what happened on the New York subway is the norm, when it's not. Interracial violence is almost always black-on-white, around 10:1 if I remember correctly. Being black does not cause the problem.[/quote]I never said it did. That's more crappy mind reading on your part.
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,348	__________________ "We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020

6th May 2023, 09:05 AM	#110
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 20,747	Originally Posted by BrettM Forumites like to attack the messenger and not the message. And what is the meassage? Several have asked Bog to provide some explication of his "message", but, as with most of his other threads, he dances around the issue with a few responses and then disappears. He's been invited to talk about how racism and poverty relate to increased violence, but he never participates. He doesn't seem interested in any explanation beyond the concentration of melanin in someone's skin. It sure seems, to many of us, that Bog's message is deeply racist - that he's trying really hard to imply that non-whites are just genetically significantly more disposed to violence. The fact that direct questions asking if that is what he means are ignored doesn't help. He's been asked, on numerous occasions, to clarify what he means and his typical response is "stop calling me a racist". The responses he does give tend to be like his avatar image, which stops just shy of, say, Obama with a bone through his nose. If he doesn't want to be perceived as a racist, maybe he should stop waddling and quacking so much.
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

6th May 2023, 09:08 AM	#111
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,348	Originally Posted by kookbreaker So why start a conversation like Boagtive did? To counter the openly race baiting thread titled "wrong door shooting."
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,348	__________________ "We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020

6th May 2023, 09:09 AM	#112
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 20,747	Originally Posted by Bogative Interracial violence is almost always black-on-white, around 10:1 if I remember correctly. How about you provide some actual evidence proving that assertion, instead of relying on your admittedly questionable memory?
	__________________ Counterbalance in the little town of Ridgeview, Ohio. Two people permanently enslaved by the tyranny of fear and superstitution, facing the future with a kind of helpless dread. Two others facing the future with confidence - having escaped one of the darker places of the Twilight Zone.

6th May 2023, 09:14 AM	#113
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,348	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle Well we do know that Bogative is firmly of the opinion that non-whites being allowed to own guns is the sole issue. Evidence? Links? Quotations? No, didn't think so. Nice try though.
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,348	__________________ "We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020

6th May 2023, 09:27 AM	#114
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,348	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote How about you provide some actual evidence proving that assertion, instead of relying on your admittedly questionable memory? Quote: In 2021, 87 percent of all non-lethal interracial violent crimes committed between blacks and whites in the U.S. were black-on-white—480,030 incidents with a black offender and white victim, and 69,850 incidents with a white offender and black victim, or seven times as many black-on-white as white-on-black incidents of interracial non-lethal violence. In other words, whites have more to fear from blacks than blacks from whites, a fact contrary to the race-hustle narrative. https://www.city-journal.org/article...tual-narrative The video I posted in the OP is an example of what is normal when it comes to interracial violence, not the exception in cases like Ralph Yarl.
Bogative Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 2,348	__________________ "We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.” – Joe Biden October 24, 2020

6th May 2023, 09:30 AM	#115
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 22,595	The argument gets bantered here a lot that poverty and gang activity is the cause of disproportionately high murder rates among black people. I'm not sure adequate evidence has been presented for that, either. For instance, gang related homicides account for about 13% of all homicides (which includes white biker gangs, prison gangs, and white supremacist gangs).. The other 87% are non-gang related. https://nationalgangcenter.ojp.gov/s...-gang-problems The overwhelming majority of the murders in the Today's Mass Shooting thread do not mention any gang activity (I did a word search for "gang" and got no hits except posters asserting that black mass shooters were of course gang related. Which I heartily dispute). Most of the dozens and dozens of reports describe minor altercations that escalate quickly to gunfire. Most of these are at large parties or nightclubs, hardly the Hallmark of impoverished people, even considering what the American standard for poverty means (having a car, cable tv and internet, air conditioning, cel phone, and being overweight). I haven't found reliable statistics on poverty/murder rates, which I would expect to show that the average black shooter lives below the poverty line.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet