How do we reduce mass-shootings?

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by jeremyp

I expect a lot of people in the UK thought that before Michael Ryan started spraying bullets from his M1 carbine and his AK-47 look alike. There was no soul searching after that, or even thoughts and prayers: centre fire semi automatics were simply banned.

Once you get gun control in place in the USA and mass shootings become a rarity again, you'll have a mass shooting involving an AR-15 and the same thing will happen as happened in the UK. Or you won't have one which will be an even better outcome.

Mass-shootings are very rare in many states of the USA.

One a year, if not less.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Mass-shootings are very rare in many states of the USA.

One a year, if not less.

Wow! Talk about having low expectations. Once a year is exceptionally high for most countries. And some states in the US have pretty low populations.

Once a year used to be shocking enough. Now apparently once a day is greeted with a chorus of people declaring that there is “nothing that can be done. ‘‘Twas ever thus!”

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Wow! Talk about having low expectations. Once a year is exceptionally high for most countries. And some states in the US have pretty low populations.

Once a year used to be shocking enough. Now apparently once a day is greeted with a chorus of people declaring that there is “nothing that can be done. ‘‘Twas ever thus!”

Most of these events are gang/crime related. And they don't happen in most states.

If some states need to get their **** in order, I encourage them to. But don't punish me for the idiots in Florida and Mississippi.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Wow! Talk about having low expectations. Once a year is exceptionally high for most countries. And some states in the US have pretty low populations.

Once a year used to be shocking enough. Now apparently once a day is greeted with a chorus of people declaring that there is “nothing that can be done. ‘‘Twas ever thus!”

Yeah... I'm researching to respond to his Nevada question and I "only" found 5 in 2021, and another 5 in 2022. For comparisons sake I found 45 in 2021 in California. One of those dangerous lefty, high population states. Except... Cali has 12.5 times as many people as Nevada, making it, from a mass shooting standpoint, safer than Nevada.

Alaska, had only 2 in 2021... but that makes it 1.2 times worse (in that year) than Cali on a per capita bases.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Most of these events are gang/crime related. And they don't happen in most states.

Oh that’s okay then.

Originally Posted by Hercules56

If some states need to get their **** in order, I encourage them to. But don't punish me for the idiots in Florida and Mississippi.

Punish you?

This sort of mentality is basically why you are ****** as a country. You’re determinedly opposed to sensible gun laws and you are part of the problem? What can we do? We can do that? Well, I won’t!

Don’t ask the bloody question and wring your hands and make veiled threats about civil war if you have no intention of doing what is likely to be effective.

[jeremyp]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Mass-shootings are very rare in many states of the USA.

One a year, if not less.

Eight in the UK since Dumblane in 1996 (and three of them had no fatalities). Multiply that by five to account for the larger US population. You should be looking for less than one per two decades per state.

[sackett]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Has the NFA ever faced the Supreme Court?

Damfino, since it was repealed & replaced in 1968. I only mention NFA 1938 because, coming from a gunsmithing family, I learned its provisions in childhood; literally. I'm familiar with the 1968 and later regs, for the good reason that they include much of the 1938 regs. They're okay, although they don't go nearly far enough, and of course don't violate the 2A because regulation is not infringement.

Do you really think, or anyway believe, that firearms laws can't be written so that they don't violate the US Constitution?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Hollywood's not the problem.

No, but it could be part of the solution. When was the last time you saw a movie hero smoking?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Nessie

That is the major reason why it will never be done. There are far too many Americans who are determined it never will be done.

And what is being done to get them to change their minds?

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

BTW, if you tried that now in any state of the union there would be violence.

You can't stop violence! That might lead to violence!

[8enotto]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

And what is being done to get them to change their minds?

Morons with guns are shooting up schools and shopping malls. Showing the rest of the people they could be the next victim if nothing is done.

[arthwollipot]

Originally Posted by 8enotto

Morons with guns are shooting up schools and shopping malls. Showing the rest of the people they could be the next victim if nothing is done.

How's that working out?

[8enotto]

Ask the good folks that have guns and treasure the right to have them over all.

I got rid of all mine decades ago when I realized stupid people wanted to use my guns to "resolve" thier problems, and a few didn't want to ask me first.
I got rid of the guns and the stupid people.

[Hercules56]

https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/5/...rett-kavanaugh

Supreme Court could soon render all AW bans illegal.

[The Great Zaganza]

There is a simple way to change the SC's mind on this: some of these gun nuts should shoot up their houses instead of killing random people in schools and malls.

For all intends and purposes, Supreme Court Judges are not citizens of America, but of a rarefied gated community.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

There is a simple way to change the SC's mind on this: some of these gun nuts should shoot up their houses instead of killing random people in schools and malls.

For all intends and purposes, Supreme Court Judges are not citizens of America, but of a rarefied gated community.

Is this a wish?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Right, cuz all these mass-shooters are mentally healthy and treatment could not have stopped their carnage.

Some of these people seem legitimately mentally ill, others just seem deeply unhappy and anti-social.

There's definitely a problem of this country of extreme alienation, especially among young men, but I'm not so sure you can call that a mental health issue. At least, I'm not sure you can assume that all, or even most, of these spree shooters have diagnosable mental health problems. They are just lonely and angry about it and decide to lash out violently.

They write manifestos in which they show consciousness of guilt, at least they are aware that they are committing murder and other immoral acts. Most seem to know that these events will end with their deaths or permanent imprisonment and very few are ever successful in pleading insanity.

Is being a pathetic loner who doesn't know how to make real friends and spending too much time alone on the internet a diagnosable mental health problem?

[JoeMorgue]

Hey if Hercules was to agree to classify "Being a Republican" as being mentally ill I'm all for it.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Some of these people seem legitimately mentally ill, others just seem deeply unhappy and anti-social.

There's definitely a problem of this country of extreme alienation, especially among young men, but I'm not so sure you can call that a mental health issue. At least, I'm not sure you can assume that all, or even most, of these spree shooters have diagnosable mental health problems. They are just lonely and angry about it and decide to lash out violently.

They write manifestos in which they show consciousness of guilt, at least they are aware that they are committing murder and other immoral acts. Most seem to know that these events will end with their deaths or permanent imprisonment and very few are ever successful in pleading insanity.

Is being a pathetic loner who doesn't know how to make real friends and spending too much time alone on the internet a diagnosable mental health problem?

I really doubt the medical professionals would be satisfied with simply categorizing these people as "deeply unhappy, anti-social, pathetic loners".

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I really doubt the medical professionals would be satisfied with simply categorizing these people as "deeply unhappy, anti-social, pathetic loners".

I'm assuming many of them wouldn't be diagnosed with anything more severe than the common low-level mental illnesses that many non-killers share, like depression and anxiety.

I suppose you could back into a de-facto gun ban by making every single American get their heads shrank, and only the tiny minority that came through with perfect evaluations being granted the right to own guns.

If you filter out everyone who ever had any signs of any mental malfunction there wouldn't be enough perfectly sane people left to fill a basketball stadium.

hand waving about "mental illness" is a total cop out. Plenty of these murderers are not psychotic.

[Nessie]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

And what is being done to get them to change their minds?

Everywhere else, the majority changes their minds after a mass shooting. The USA has had so many, the only conclusion is that nothing can make the majority change their minds.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

I'm assuming many of them wouldn't be diagnosed with anything more severe than the common low-level mental illnesses that many non-killers share, like depression and anxiety.

I suppose you could back into a de-facto gun ban by making every single American get their heads shrank, and only the tiny minority that came through with perfect evaluations being granted the right to own guns.

If you filter out everyone who ever had any signs of any mental malfunction there wouldn't be enough perfectly sane people left to fill a basketball stadium.

hand waving about "mental illness" is a total cop out. Plenty of these murderers are not psychotic.

No one is disregarding anything. Our mental health treatment system sucks and could be significantly improved.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Nessie

Everywhere else, the majority changes their minds after a mass shooting. The USA has had so many, the only conclusion is that nothing can make the majority change their minds.

The 2A has the effect of freezing attitudes where they were long ago.

Attitudes to gun control in the US and, say, the UK have several similarities; both attitudes were formed in the wake of revolutions (the American one and the Russian one). Both reflect the view that armed people might overthrow the government. The difference is the the UK imagined this could be a bad thing.

You get gun control not when you realise that armed people might overthrow the government, but when you think armed people who aren't the kind of people you like might overthrow the government.

The black panthers helpfully illustrated that.

[tusenfem]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

https://www.vox.com/politics/2023/5/...rett-kavanaugh

Supreme Court could soon render all AW bans illegal.

Well, that's a relief! Prais the lord! Thoughts and prayers and all.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by tusenfem

Well, that's a relief! Prais the lord! Thoughts and prayers and all.

You're welcome to try to amend the Constitution.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Nessie

Everywhere else, the majority changes their minds after a mass shooting. The USA has had so many, the only conclusion is that nothing can make the majority change their minds.

Going to disagree - all the polls show that a large majority of USA folk would support much tighter gun control. The issue is that their politicians won't take what the majority wants forward.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

You're welcome to try to amend the Constitution.

You clearly need to change the rules, but of course you have to do it without changing the rules.

But the Constitution is like Harry Potter's Room of Requirement; Whatever you need the rules to be, you reinterpret the rules to mean whatever you need them to mean. I assume that's the way forward if anything's ever going to happen.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

The 2A has the effect of freezing attitudes where they were long ago.

Attitudes to gun control in the US and, say, the UK have several similarities; both attitudes were formed in the wake of revolutions (the American one and the Russian one). Both reflect the view that armed people might overthrow the government. The difference is the the UK imagined this could be a bad thing.

Well, obviously the US is going to side with the American revolutionaries: we are the armed people who overthrew the prior guys. We think that revolution was a good one, and we're theoretically open to the possibility that revolutions aren't always bad.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge

You clearly need to change the rules, but of course you have to do it without changing the rules.

But the Constitution is like Harry Potter's Room of Requirement; Whatever you need the rules to be, you reinterpret the rules to mean whatever you need them to mean. I assume that's the way forward if anything's ever going to happen.

What rules do you think we should be changing? How to amend the Constitution?

[BrettM]

I watch the USA mass shooting drama from the other side of the world. It is like an unstoppable avalanche.

There is too much momentum on the one side of the equation (gun industry, gun fanatics, media marketing machine), and too much inertia on the other side (legislators, politicians, apathetic voters).

What SHOULD be done has been discussed extensively on this forum. I agree with most of the points. Given the fractious nature of US politics, I doubt any of this will happen.

So what would YOU, the man in the street, fed up with all the senseless killing, do to bring about change? The things that you can do need to be within your control and within your capability.

Would you organize 1960's style protest marches and sit-ins? Would you write and petition your congressman? Would you take out large adverts in the national newspapers? Maybe organize a campaign to get YouTube to remove all videos that promote guns? Can you boycott businesses where the majority of the employees are gun lovers? Can you stigmatize them in some way?

A number of posters on this thread have said that it is better to do something, even if it is small, than do nothing. So, let's come up with some practical ideas!

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Well, obviously the US is going to side with the American revolutionaries: we are the armed people who overthrew the prior guys. We think that revolution was a good one, and we're theoretically open to the possibility that revolutions aren't always bad.

American revolution, the goodies won so obvs good. French revolution <sucks through teeth> The Terror was a bit cringe so, not great. Russian revolution, the baddies won so bad. Chinese revolution bad but keep making those iPhones pls. Cuban revolution bad bad. Iranian revolution bad bad bad.

There seems to be a trend. And not towards revolutions being welcomed. (Though I may be ignoring all the nice fluffy revolutions for comic effect.)

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

What rules do you think we should be changing? How to amend the Constitution?

I really don't know. I just drop in smartass remarks to keep from despairing for you guys.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by BrettM

I watch the USA mass shooting drama from the other side of the world. It is like an unstoppable avalanche.

There is too much momentum on the one side of the equation (gun industry, gun fanatics, media marketing machine), and too much inertia on the other side (legislators, politicians, apathetic voters).

What SHOULD be done has been discussed extensively on this forum. I agree with most of the points. Given the fractious nature of US politics, I doubt any of this will happen.

So what would YOU, the man in the street, fed up with all the senseless killing, do to bring about change? The things that you can do need to be within your control and within your capability.

Would you organize 1960's style protest marches and sit-ins? Would you write and petition your congressman? Would you take out large adverts in the national newspapers? Maybe organize a campaign to get YouTube to remove all videos that promote guns? Can you boycott businesses where the majority of the employees are gun lovers? Can you stigmatize them in some way?

A number of posters on this thread have said that it is better to do something, even if it is small, than do nothing. So, let's come up with some practical ideas!

Good chance we could pass 21 year old minimum to buy assault weapon. 7 day waiting period. More red flag laws. Those could pass. And severely increase funding for mental health programs.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Nessie

Everywhere else, the majority changes their minds after a mass shooting. The USA has had so many, the only conclusion is that nothing can make the majority change their minds.

Maybe not to the extent of the UK but most Americans actually do want stricter laws.

The poll by the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy and The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research shows 71% of Americans say gun laws should be stricter, including about half of Republicans, the vast majority of Democrats and a majority of those in gun-owning households.

https://apnews.com/article/gun-viole...a7447d36808715

We just can't effect change in this country due to a whole variety of issues that have likely been talked into the ground on several other threads.

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Good chance we could pass 21 year old minimum to buy assault weapon. 7 day waiting period. More red flag laws. Those could pass. And severely increase funding for mental health programs.

The most recent mass shooter at the Texas mall was 33 years old, owned the guns for longer than 7 days, and was able to pass whatever screening is required to be a security guard.

Pissing into a hurricane with this.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Maybe not to the extent of the UK but most Americans actually do want stricter laws.....

I would agree that majority of Americans in most states would probably support universal background checks. But assault weapons ban? Hard to see most states supporting that when 26 of our states allow people to openly carry guns in public without any permit required.

[lobosrul5]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I would agree that majority of Americans in most states would probably support universal background checks. But assault weapons ban? Hard to see most states supporting that when 26 of our states allow people to openly carry guns in public without any permit required.

It would seem that, yes, most people do support an AW ban.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/poll...t-weapons.aspx

The majority of people, in a majority of states? Thats an entirely different question. And you are probably correct. Since the smallest 26 states are only about 17% of our population its statistically very easy for both things to be true.

ETA: it'd be interesting to see if more, or less than 17% of mass shootings occur in the 26 smallest states by population. But, I just don't have the time and energy to figure that out at the moment.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

It would seem that, yes, most people do support an AW ban.

https://news.gallup.com/opinion/poll...t-weapons.aspx

The majority of people, in a majority of states? Thats an entirely different question. And you are probably correct. Since the smallest 26 states are only about 17% of our population its statistically very easy for both things to be true.

ETA: it'd be interesting to see if more, or less than 17% of mass shootings occur in the 26 smallest states by population. But, I just don't have the time and energy to figure that out at the moment.

Every state can pass their own AWB. Much easier than passing in Congress.

And yet only about 6 states have an AWB. What's that tell ya?

[TurkeysGhost]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Every state can pass their own AWB. Much easier than passing in Congress.

And yet only about 6 states have an AWB. What's that tell ya?

My count is 10, and about 1/3 of the US population resides in those states.

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

My count is 10, and about 1/3 of the US population resides in those states.

So 66% of Americans live in states that allow assault weapons?

Looks like a tough deal to sell.