How do we reduce mass-shootings? - Page 8

TurkeysGhost · 10th May 2023, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

So 66% of Americans live in states that allow assault weapons?

Looks like a tough deal to sell.

Come on now, you know that says nothing about public opinion within those states. It does strike me that the steady drumbeat of malls and schools and churches getting shot up by malcontents is actually having some impact on public opinion, and it's not like American culture is going to get any less alienating or insane in the near future. I'm guessing there's growing, if not majority, support for some kind of rifle or broader ban even in states with no gun control.

It's not like the laws in this country actually closely correlate with public opinion with any regularity.

Hercules56 · 10th May 2023, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Come on now, you know that says nothing about public opinion within those states. It does strike me that the steady drumbeat of malls and schools and churches getting shot up by malcontents is actually having some impact on public opinion, and it's not like American culture is going to get any less alienating or insane in the near future. I'm guessing there's growing, if not majority, support for some kind of rifle or broader ban even in states with no gun control.

It's not like the laws in this country actually closely correlate with public opinion with any regularity.

AWB failed last year. Will continue to fail until Dems have 60 Senators OR they kill the filibuster.

But then SCOTUS will kill it anyways. Try again in 30 years.

The Atheist · 10th May 2023, 05:09 PM

If only the Sacred Constitution could be changed.

But thankfully for gun nuts, it's not. It's immutable and hasn't ever been changed.

Except for those times in 1795, 1804, 1865, 1868, 1870, 1913(2), 1919, 1920, 1933(2), 1951, 1951, 1961, 1964, 1967, 1971 & 1992.

arthwollipot · 10th May 2023, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

What rules do you think we should be changing?

The 2nd Amendment.

The Great Zaganza · 10th May 2023, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

You're welcome to try to amend the Constitution.

Or just read it instead of making stuff up.

The fact that we longer allow official militias is a clear violation against the 2nd amendment, and yet no one seems to care about that, not even activist Supreme Court judges.

Blue Mountain · 10th May 2023, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Or just read it instead of making stuff up.

The fact that we longer allow official militias is a clear violation against the 2nd amendment, and yet no one seems to care about that, not even activist Supreme Court judges.

And here's the text:

Originally Posted by The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The Heller decision by the Supreme Court in 2008 severed the prefatory clause from the rest of the text, effectively rendering it as The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

But even this is ambiguous. One can interpret "keep," "bear," "arms," and "infringed" many different ways.

"Keep" could be interpreted as "kept under lock and key in a secure manner."

"Bear" is tougher, for "bearing" arms implies the right to carry one, and without the prefatory clause the implication is all people have a right to "bear" or carry arms. One could argue that the right to bear (carry) arms is limited by circumstances, such as whether or not there's an ongoing war or insurrection.

"Arms" likewise is open to interpretation. Muskets and swords only? Or ICBMS? Or something in between?

"Infringed" could mean anything from an outright ban (disallowed by the amendment) to even a hint of requiring any sort of paperwork or acquire, keep, and carry anything classified as "arms."

My point is that the text of the second amendment is open to interpretation, and it's possible to apply a very narrow interpretation: the people have a right to keep a limited number and range of arms, locked securely and away from ammunition, and can bear them only if there is an active insurrection or war in the area. And it has been shown that requiring paperwork and background checks to acquire arms is constitutional.

erlando · 10th May 2023, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Good chance we could pass 21 year old minimum to buy assault weapon. 7 day waiting period. More red flag laws. Those could pass. And severely increase funding for mental health programs.

But according to you anything that even touches regulating gun ownership will result in violence.

Your whole "I really do want something to be done but unfortunately nothing of consequence can be done because violence and civil war"-schtick is quite tiring.

Nessie · 11th May 2023, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Going to disagree - all the polls show that a large majority of USA folk would support much tighter gun control. The issue is that their politicians won't take what the majority wants forward.

This is why the majority who back tighter controls, are not really a majority;

https://apnews.com/article/gun-viole...a7447d36808715

"Nicole Whitelaw, 29, is a Democrat and gun owner who grew up hunting and target shooting in upstate New York with her strongly Republican family. Whitelaw, who now lives along Florida’s Gulf Coast, supports some gun restrictions, such as prohibiting people convicted of domestic violence from owning firearms and a federal law preventing mentally ill people from purchasing guns.
She said other restrictions — such as banning sales of AR-15 rifles — are “going too far” and may not solve the problem."

Whitelaw has not realised, or has ignored, that licenced guns are used in mass shootings and mass shootings kill more when a rapid fire gun is used. She is basically saying, I want tighter gun control, except for me.

The reason why the UK does not have so many mass shootings is because tighter gun control applies to everyone, not just some. In the UK, the majority supported gun control, for the majority. In the US, the majority want tighter gun control for a minority, of which they are not a part of.

Susheel · 11th May 2023, 02:26 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

So only children count? Murdered adults dont count?

#Sad

Well...I don't think anyone murdered with a gun would count for you...so let's not get to comfy in that saddle of self righteousness

Norman Alexander · 11th May 2023, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Not in most states of the Union, bro.

Maybe you should focus your anger on the problem states, and leave the peaceful states alone.

They live next door to each other, so there's no such distinction. It is why a city with gun controls - Chicago - still has a gun problem. It lies just minutes away from a state with zero controls. Cross the street and fill your car with ammo.

No, it needs a consistent federal solution that applies to all states, no exceptions, regardless of any state's rantings about independence. They are either in the union and comply, or out and not part of the USA.

Parsman · 11th May 2023, 03:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

AWB failed last year. Will continue to fail until Dems have 60 Senators OR they kill the filibuster.

But then SCOTUS will kill it anyways. Try again in 30 years.

And in the mean time keep killing ordinary Americans in their 10s and their hundreds and their thousands. Sick society

Hercules56 · 11th May 2023, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Parsman

And in the mean time keep killing ordinary Americans in their 10s and their hundreds and their thousands. Sick society

Most mass-shootings are committed with handguns.

Hercules56 · 11th May 2023, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

But according to you anything that even touches regulating gun ownership will result in violence...

I NEVER said that and you know it!!

8enotto · 11th May 2023, 06:39 AM

The two main elements involved are a firearm and a person intent on using it to harm others.

One of them has to be curbed to have any success. A person intent on doing a shooting is not worried about how to legally get any weapons, he is going to get one adequate for his needs as quickly as possible.
There are collectors that have dozens of weapons in safes, some have them stashed around the house for protection. One friend had seven stashed.
The ones most likely to get thier bad intentions on those weapons are the ones already living in that house.

Dad won't notice in time Jr. went to the mall with three pistola and a lot of anger.

How do you put keep those guns out of the hands of a shooter? Lock them up and risk a home invasion. Don't have them and accept you could be at risk?
Teach the kids that racism, hatred and impulsive behavior is stupid, should be avoided?
What if dad is also racist, security paranoid and we'll armed then. Oops, there is all the ingredients of Jr blowing a gasket when he gets picked on in school.

I was asked to loan a gun to a guy to settle a score over drugs,. He would return it after he turned it into a murder weapon of course. Then we caught him sculking around my home checking windows.
Those guns were gone that week. Two still ended up in police evidence when the buyers had stashed them in cars and got stupid. The rest when a guy lost his entire gun safe for pulling a gun in attempted murder. Now they are all melted down. I hope.
People with super bang bang powers are stupid. Sadly then it was legal to resell without a paper trail. I realized later they should have been destroyed if not sold through a licenced dealer. My bad, even "responsible" people got really stupid.

erlando · 11th May 2023, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I NEVER said that and you know it!!

Hercules56 · 11th May 2023, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

That's your response??

arthwollipot · 11th May 2023, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

She is basically saying, I want tighter gun control, except for me.

Yes, this is the conclusion I came to long ago. It's always personal. Gun control is always about taking my guns, and I'm a law abiding gun owner so why should I be punished when it's all those other people who are the problem?

Concepts such as "the greater good" do not make an impact on this kind of radical individualism.

erlando · 11th May 2023, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

That's your response??

That's the only response your effort deserves. You have dismissed any suggestions actually doing something with "there will be violence". Your own suggestions will do nothing to alleviate the absolute massive problem with guns in the United States. You want what every gun nut wants, toothless legislation that means you get to keep all your killing toys without any effort what so ever.

Thus

catsmate · 12th May 2023, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Right, cuz all these mass-shooters are mentally healthy and treatment could not have stopped their carnage.

And yet perhaps 5% are shown to actually have mental health issues. Unless you're categorising being a white supremacist Trumpette as an actual mental disorder?

TurkeysGhost · 12th May 2023, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Yes, this is the conclusion I came to long ago. It's always personal. Gun control is always about taking my guns, and I'm a law abiding gun owner so why should I be punished when it's all those other people who are the problem?

Concepts such as "the greater good" do not make an impact on this kind of radical individualism.

Arguments for greater good would probably be more convincing if the gun regulations being proposed stood a chance to accomplish any public good. Even under their own terms, common policies like assault weapons bans or waiting periods or whatever are totally inadequate to directly confront the problem of gun violence in this country.

Hercules56 · 12th May 2023, 05:03 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

That's the only response your effort deserves. You have dismissed any suggestions actually doing something with "there will be violence"....

FALSE. Try again.

Darat · 12th May 2023, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Arguments for greater good would probably be more convincing if the gun regulations being proposed stood a chance to accomplish any public good. Even under their own terms, common policies like assault weapons bans or waiting periods or whatever are totally inadequate to directly confront the problem of gun violence in this country.

But perhaps looking longer term it may help to start with anything you can get through now and keep plugging at it. To not do anything seems inexcusable at the this time.

TragicMonkey · 12th May 2023, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

But perhaps looking longer term it may help to start with anything you can get through now and keep plugging at it. To not do anything seems inexcusable at the this time.

Only a subset of the population thinks that way. Remember the pandemic? How people refused to wear masks because they weren't guaranteed to work? Heck, we still have people refusing to use seatbelts.

Perfect solution now (and it has to be inexpensive and easy) or nothing, that's the requirement.

Hercules56 · 12th May 2023, 05:18 AM

Delete

erlando · 12th May 2023, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

FALSE. Try again.

Why on Earth should I bother?

jeremyp · 12th May 2023, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost

Arguments for greater good would probably be more convincing if the gun regulations being proposed stood a chance to accomplish any public good. Even under their own terms, common policies like assault weapons bans or waiting periods or whatever are totally inadequate to directly confront the problem of gun violence in this country.

The trouble is that people like you don't offer any meaningful alternative. For ***** sake: do something.

jeremyp · 12th May 2023, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Only a subset of the population thinks that way. Remember the pandemic? How people refused to wear masks because they weren't guaranteed to work? Heck, we still have people refusing to use seatbelts.

Perfect solution now (and it has to be inexpensive and easy) or nothing, that's the requirement.

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

80% of Americans want better gun control. How hard is it to tell the people who say "it needs to be perfect (and inexpensive and easy)" to **** off?

TragicMonkey · 12th May 2023, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

80% of Americans want better gun control. How hard is it to tell the people who say "it needs to be perfect (and inexpensive and easy)" to **** off?

Unfortunately the 20% who are idiots are either in charge or are catered to by those in charge. It's like living with a bear with explosive diarrhea: it doesn't matter how clean the rest of us are we're all going to get constantly showered with ****.

Ironically one of the solutions would be to just shoot the idiots, but we're not supposed to suggest that.

jeremyp · 12th May 2023, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Unfortunately the 20% who are idiots are either in charge or are catered to by those in charge. It's like living with a bear with explosive diarrhea: it doesn't matter how clean the rest of us are we're all going to get constantly showered with ****.

Ironically one of the solutions would be to just shoot the idiots, but we're not supposed to suggest that.

How about not voting for them? The USA is supposed to be a democracy.

If 80% of the population want gun control, there has to be something totally ****** up if gun control support is seen as political suicide for legislators.

Hercules56 · 12th May 2023, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

How about not voting for them? The USA is supposed to be a democracy.

If 80% of the population want gun control, there has to be something totally ****** up if gun control support is seen as political suicide for legislators.

Only 62% of eligible voters actually vote in the USA, so the 80% figure is kinda misleading.

TragicMonkey · 12th May 2023, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

How about not voting for them? The USA is supposed to be a democracy.

If 80% of the population want gun control, there has to be something totally ****** up if gun control support is seen as political suicide for legislators.

But gun control isn't the only issue. There are plenty of people who would love to have better gun control...but not if it means voting for an ethnic, or someone who doesn't believe every sperm is sacred, or who suggests raising taxes one hundredth of one percent on any income over the fifth billion per annum. It's not really a simple question of "do you prefer mass shootings/not having mass shootings", that would be much easier to handle.

And for the supposed democracy we have a legislature that doesn't have to do things just because most of the population wants it, and a judiciary that can simply undo whatever it doesn't like, and an executive hamstrung by the political opposition in the legislature. We'd probably be much more effective as a nation if we had a king but the risk there is that he might end up being an ethnic who doesn't revere sperm.

Hercules56 · 12th May 2023, 12:06 PM

There are lots of laws and programs we could pass that would reduce mass shootings and other violent crime. Saying we have to ban all guns or do nothing, is pretty silly and extremist.

TragicMonkey · 12th May 2023, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

is pretty silly and extremist.

Welcome to the 2020s!

Hercules56 · 12th May 2023, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Welcome to the 2020s!

"Unless you support banning all guns, you're a MAGA Republican!!!"

Gulliver Foyle · 13th May 2023, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

FALSE. Try again.

True actually. Your "solutions" are, at best, the equivalent of Nero fiddling while Rome burnt.

TurkeysGhost · 13th May 2023, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

There are lots of laws and programs we could pass that would reduce mass shootings and other violent crime. Saying we have to ban all guns or do nothing, is pretty silly and extremist.

Is that the case? Plenty of past history of nibbling around the ****-sandwich on this issue. Any evidence that the 90's era AWB had any meaningful impact on violence, for example? Or any other such half-measure policy you think has had a measurably good impact?

Nessie · 13th May 2023, 03:29 AM

Americans rightly want more gun control for criminals, youths, domestic abusers. What they fail to understand is that apparently rational, law-abiding, legal gun owners also kill.

The mass shootings in the UK have been by licenced, vetted gun owners, with one exception, where the shooter stole the gun he used off his licence holding father.

Successful gun control involves the rational, law abiders to also be the subject of strict controls. That is never going to be tolerated, hence it is impossible to reduce mass shootings.

Parsman · 13th May 2023, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by Hercules56

There are lots of laws and programs we could pass that would reduce mass shootings and other violent crime. Saying we have to ban all guns or do nothing, is pretty silly and extremist.

Straw man. Very few people are arguing for a total ban on guns and you know it. Heck here in the UK after Dunblane we didn't ban all guns. It is possible to legally own guns still, just a damn sight harder to do. You can't just buy them coz... something, there needs to be a reason. Oh and guess what, the number of mass shootings in Scotland since Dunblane and the tightening of gun regulations? Zero. And believe me we have our mental health and societal issues here too.

Nessie · 13th May 2023, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Parsman

Straw man. Very few people are arguing for a total ban on guns and you know it. Heck here in the UK after Dunblane we didn't ban all guns. It is possible to legally own guns still, just a damn sight harder to do. You can't just buy them coz... something, there needs to be a reason. Oh and guess what, the number of mass shootings in Scotland since Dunblane and the tightening of gun regulations? Zero. And believe me we have our mental health and societal issues here too.

It is not harder to get a gun in Scotland, than it is for many Americans to get guns, as the licensing rules here are very similar to the licensing rules for carrying a gun in many US states. An example is the licensing for a concealed carry gun in Texas. If that licence applied to all types of gun, for all people in every state across the USA, then the USA would take a huge step towards proper, effective gun control.

TurkeysGhost · 13th May 2023, 04:04 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

It is not harder to get a gun in Scotland, than it is for many Americans to get guns, as the licensing rules here are very similar to the licensing rules for carrying a gun in many US states. An example is the licensing for a concealed carry gun in Texas. If that licence applied to all types of gun, for all people in every state across the USA, then the USA would take a huge step towards proper, effective gun control.

My understanding is that the types of gun on offer in Scotland vary quite a bit from the US.

Also, it's perfectly legal in Texas to request a carry permit for the explicit purposes of armed self defense. Somehow I doubt such reasons are acceptable in Scotland.

I think you're oversimplifying things a bit. These countries allow some sporting guns, but notably don't have the same culture of armed self defense or allowing weapons that are designed primarily for that purpose. Occasionally having shootings with shotguns is not the same of letting anybody with a clean record buy an AR or a Glock.

10th May 2023, 01:47 PM	#281
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,634	Originally Posted by Hercules56 So 66% of Americans live in states that allow assault weapons? Looks like a tough deal to sell. Come on now, you know that says nothing about public opinion within those states. It does strike me that the steady drumbeat of malls and schools and churches getting shot up by malcontents is actually having some impact on public opinion, and it's not like American culture is going to get any less alienating or insane in the near future. I'm guessing there's growing, if not majority, support for some kind of rifle or broader ban even in states with no gun control. It's not like the laws in this country actually closely correlate with public opinion with any regularity.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

10th May 2023, 01:49 PM	#282
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Come on now, you know that says nothing about public opinion within those states. It does strike me that the steady drumbeat of malls and schools and churches getting shot up by malcontents is actually having some impact on public opinion, and it's not like American culture is going to get any less alienating or insane in the near future. I'm guessing there's growing, if not majority, support for some kind of rifle or broader ban even in states with no gun control. It's not like the laws in this country actually closely correlate with public opinion with any regularity. AWB failed last year. Will continue to fail until Dems have 60 Senators OR they kill the filibuster. But then SCOTUS will kill it anyways. Try again in 30 years.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

10th May 2023, 05:09 PM	#283
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 33,601	If only the Sacred Constitution could be changed. But thankfully for gun nuts, it's not. It's immutable and hasn't ever been changed. Except for those times in 1795, 1804, 1865, 1868, 1870, 1913(2), 1919, 1920, 1933(2), 1951, 1951, 1961, 1964, 1967, 1971 & 1992.
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

10th May 2023, 06:19 PM	#284
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	Originally Posted by Hercules56 What rules do you think we should be changing? The 2nd Amendment.
	__________________ Слава Україні! Героям Слава! 20220224 - 20230224

10th May 2023, 09:36 PM	#285
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,893	Originally Posted by Hercules56 You're welcome to try to amend the Constitution. Or just read it instead of making stuff up. The fact that we longer allow official militias is a clear violation against the 2nd amendment, and yet no one seems to care about that, not even activist Supreme Court judges.
	__________________ “Don’t blame me. I voted for Kodos.”

10th May 2023, 10:05 PM	#286
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,339	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza Or just read it instead of making stuff up. The fact that we longer allow official militias is a clear violation against the 2nd amendment, and yet no one seems to care about that, not even activist Supreme Court judges. And here's the text: Originally Posted by The Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The Heller decision by the Supreme Court in 2008 severed the prefatory clause from the rest of the text, effectively rendering it as The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed. But even this is ambiguous. One can interpret "keep," "bear," "arms," and "infringed" many different ways. "Keep" could be interpreted as "kept under lock and key in a secure manner." "Bear" is tougher, for "bearing" arms implies the right to carry one, and without the prefatory clause the implication is all people have a right to "bear" or carry arms. One could argue that the right to bear (carry) arms is limited by circumstances, such as whether or not there's an ongoing war or insurrection. "Arms" likewise is open to interpretation. Muskets and swords only? Or ICBMS? Or something in between? "Infringed" could mean anything from an outright ban (disallowed by the amendment) to even a hint of requiring any sort of paperwork or acquire, keep, and carry anything classified as "arms." My point is that the text of the second amendment is open to interpretation, and it's possible to apply a very narrow interpretation: the people have a right to keep a limited number and range of arms, locked securely and away from ammunition, and can bear them only if there is an active insurrection or war in the area. And it has been shown that requiring paperwork and background checks to acquire arms is constitutional.
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French) Last edited by Blue Mountain; 10th May 2023 at 10:07 PM.

10th May 2023, 11:14 PM	#287
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,429	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Good chance we could pass 21 year old minimum to buy assault weapon. 7 day waiting period. More red flag laws. Those could pass. And severely increase funding for mental health programs. But according to you anything that even touches regulating gun ownership will result in violence. Your whole "I really do want something to be done but unfortunately nothing of consequence can be done because violence and civil war"-schtick is quite tiring.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,429	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

11th May 2023, 01:44 AM	#288
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,758	Originally Posted by Darat Going to disagree - all the polls show that a large majority of USA folk would support much tighter gun control. The issue is that their politicians won't take what the majority wants forward. This is why the majority who back tighter controls, are not really a majority; https://apnews.com/article/gun-viole...a7447d36808715 "Nicole Whitelaw, 29, is a Democrat and gun owner who grew up hunting and target shooting in upstate New York with her strongly Republican family. Whitelaw, who now lives along Florida’s Gulf Coast, supports some gun restrictions, such as prohibiting people convicted of domestic violence from owning firearms and a federal law preventing mentally ill people from purchasing guns. She said other restrictions — such as banning sales of AR-15 rifles — are “going too far” and may not solve the problem." Whitelaw has not realised, or has ignored, that licenced guns are used in mass shootings and mass shootings kill more when a rapid fire gun is used. She is basically saying, I want tighter gun control, except for me. The reason why the UK does not have so many mass shootings is because tighter gun control applies to everyone, not just some. In the UK, the majority supported gun control, for the majority. In the US, the majority want tighter gun control for a minority, of which they are not a part of.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

11th May 2023, 02:26 AM	#289
Susheel Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Hyderabad, India Posts: 3,183	Originally Posted by Hercules56 So only children count? Murdered adults dont count? #Sad Well...I don't think anyone murdered with a gun would count for you...so let's not get to comfy in that saddle of self righteousness
	__________________ I've got to get to a library...fast Robert Langdon

11th May 2023, 03:02 AM	#290
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,982	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Not in most states of the Union, bro. Maybe you should focus your anger on the problem states, and leave the peaceful states alone. They live next door to each other, so there's no such distinction. It is why a city with gun controls - Chicago - still has a gun problem. It lies just minutes away from a state with zero controls. Cross the street and fill your car with ammo. No, it needs a consistent federal solution that applies to all states, no exceptions, regardless of any state's rantings about independence. They are either in the union and comply, or out and not part of the USA.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

11th May 2023, 03:50 AM	#291
Parsman Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bonnie Scotland Posts: 947	Originally Posted by Hercules56 AWB failed last year. Will continue to fail until Dems have 60 Senators OR they kill the filibuster. But then SCOTUS will kill it anyways. Try again in 30 years. And in the mean time keep killing ordinary Americans in their 10s and their hundreds and their thousands. Sick society
	__________________ I was not; I have been; I am not; I am content - Epicurus When you're dead you don't know that you're dead, all the pain is felt by others....................the same thing happens when you're stupid.

11th May 2023, 04:22 AM	#292
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	Originally Posted by Parsman And in the mean time keep killing ordinary Americans in their 10s and their hundreds and their thousands. Sick society Most mass-shootings are committed with handguns.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

11th May 2023, 04:24 AM	#293
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	Originally Posted by erlando But according to you anything that even touches regulating gun ownership will result in violence... I NEVER said that and you know it!!
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

11th May 2023, 06:39 AM	#294
8enotto Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 2,872	The two main elements involved are a firearm and a person intent on using it to harm others. One of them has to be curbed to have any success. A person intent on doing a shooting is not worried about how to legally get any weapons, he is going to get one adequate for his needs as quickly as possible. There are collectors that have dozens of weapons in safes, some have them stashed around the house for protection. One friend had seven stashed. The ones most likely to get thier bad intentions on those weapons are the ones already living in that house. Dad won't notice in time Jr. went to the mall with three pistola and a lot of anger. How do you put keep those guns out of the hands of a shooter? Lock them up and risk a home invasion. Don't have them and accept you could be at risk? Teach the kids that racism, hatred and impulsive behavior is stupid, should be avoided? What if dad is also racist, security paranoid and we'll armed then. Oops, there is all the ingredients of Jr blowing a gasket when he gets picked on in school. I was asked to loan a gun to a guy to settle a score over drugs,. He would return it after he turned it into a murder weapon of course. Then we caught him sculking around my home checking windows. Those guns were gone that week. Two still ended up in police evidence when the buyers had stashed them in cars and got stupid. The rest when a guy lost his entire gun safe for pulling a gun in attempted murder. Now they are all melted down. I hope. People with super bang bang powers are stupid. Sadly then it was legal to resell without a paper trail. I realized later they should have been destroyed if not sold through a licenced dealer. My bad, even "responsible" people got really stupid.

11th May 2023, 07:25 AM	#295
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,429	Originally Posted by Hercules56 I NEVER said that and you know it!!
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,429	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

11th May 2023, 07:34 AM	#296
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	Originally Posted by erlando That's your response??
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

11th May 2023, 08:17 PM	#297
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 82,098	Originally Posted by Nessie She is basically saying, I want tighter gun control, except for me. Yes, this is the conclusion I came to long ago. It's always personal. Gun control is always about taking my guns, and I'm a law abiding gun owner so why should I be punished when it's all those other people who are the problem? Concepts such as "the greater good" do not make an impact on this kind of radical individualism.
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11th May 2023, 10:22 PM	#298
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,429	Originally Posted by Hercules56 That's your response?? That's the only response your effort deserves. You have dismissed any suggestions actually doing something with "there will be violence". Your own suggestions will do nothing to alleviate the absolute massive problem with guns in the United States. You want what every gun nut wants, toothless legislation that means you get to keep all your killing toys without any effort what so ever. Thus
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,429	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

12th May 2023, 03:55 AM	#299
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,613	Originally Posted by Hercules56 Right, cuz all these mass-shooters are mentally healthy and treatment could not have stopped their carnage. And yet perhaps 5% are shown to actually have mental health issues. Unless you're categorising being a white supremacist Trumpette as an actual mental disorder?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

12th May 2023, 04:54 AM	#300
TurkeysGhost Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 31,634	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Yes, this is the conclusion I came to long ago. It's always personal. Gun control is always about taking my guns, and I'm a law abiding gun owner so why should I be punished when it's all those other people who are the problem? Concepts such as "the greater good" do not make an impact on this kind of radical individualism. Arguments for greater good would probably be more convincing if the gun regulations being proposed stood a chance to accomplish any public good. Even under their own terms, common policies like assault weapons bans or waiting periods or whatever are totally inadequate to directly confront the problem of gun violence in this country.
	__________________ Previously known as SuburbanTurkey

12th May 2023, 05:03 AM	#301
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	Originally Posted by erlando That's the only response your effort deserves. You have dismissed any suggestions actually doing something with "there will be violence".... FALSE. Try again.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

12th May 2023, 05:06 AM	#302
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 109,607	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Arguments for greater good would probably be more convincing if the gun regulations being proposed stood a chance to accomplish any public good. Even under their own terms, common policies like assault weapons bans or waiting periods or whatever are totally inadequate to directly confront the problem of gun violence in this country. But perhaps looking longer term it may help to start with anything you can get through now and keep plugging at it. To not do anything seems inexcusable at the this time.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

12th May 2023, 05:14 AM	#303
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	Originally Posted by Darat But perhaps looking longer term it may help to start with anything you can get through now and keep plugging at it. To not do anything seems inexcusable at the this time. Only a subset of the population thinks that way. Remember the pandemic? How people refused to wear masks because they weren't guaranteed to work? Heck, we still have people refusing to use seatbelts. Perfect solution now (and it has to be inexpensive and easy) or nothing, that's the requirement.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

12th May 2023, 05:18 AM	#304
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	Delete
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms." Last edited by Hercules56; 12th May 2023 at 05:19 AM. Reason: Delete me

12th May 2023, 05:33 AM	#305
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,429	Originally Posted by Hercules56 FALSE. Try again. Why on Earth should I bother?
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,429	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

12th May 2023, 10:28 AM	#306
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,801	Originally Posted by TurkeysGhost Arguments for greater good would probably be more convincing if the gun regulations being proposed stood a chance to accomplish any public good. Even under their own terms, common policies like assault weapons bans or waiting periods or whatever are totally inadequate to directly confront the problem of gun violence in this country. The trouble is that people like you don't offer any meaningful alternative. For ***** sake: do something.

12th May 2023, 10:32 AM	#307
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,801	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Only a subset of the population thinks that way. Remember the pandemic? How people refused to wear masks because they weren't guaranteed to work? Heck, we still have people refusing to use seatbelts. Perfect solution now (and it has to be inexpensive and easy) or nothing, that's the requirement. The perfect is the enemy of the good. 80% of Americans want better gun control. How hard is it to tell the people who say "it needs to be perfect (and inexpensive and easy)" to **** off?

12th May 2023, 10:41 AM	#308
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	Originally Posted by jeremyp The perfect is the enemy of the good. 80% of Americans want better gun control. How hard is it to tell the people who say "it needs to be perfect (and inexpensive and easy)" to ** off? Unfortunately the 20% who are idiots are either in charge or are catered to by those in charge. It's like living with a bear with explosive diarrhea: it doesn't matter how clean the rest of us are we're all going to get constantly showered with **. Ironically one of the solutions would be to just shoot the idiots, but we're not supposed to suggest that.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

12th May 2023, 11:35 AM	#309
jeremyp Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 2,801	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Unfortunately the 20% who are idiots are either in charge or are catered to by those in charge. It's like living with a bear with explosive diarrhea: it doesn't matter how clean the rest of us are we're all going to get constantly showered with **. Ironically one of the solutions would be to just shoot the idiots, but we're not supposed to suggest that. How about not voting for them? The USA is supposed to be a democracy. If 80% of the population want gun control, there has to be something totally **** up if gun control support is seen as political suicide for legislators.

12th May 2023, 11:46 AM	#310
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	Originally Posted by jeremyp How about not voting for them? The USA is supposed to be a democracy. If 80% of the population want gun control, there has to be something totally ****** up if gun control support is seen as political suicide for legislators. Only 62% of eligible voters actually vote in the USA, so the 80% figure is kinda misleading.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

12th May 2023, 11:57 AM	#311
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	Originally Posted by jeremyp How about not voting for them? The USA is supposed to be a democracy. If 80% of the population want gun control, there has to be something totally ****** up if gun control support is seen as political suicide for legislators. But gun control isn't the only issue. There are plenty of people who would love to have better gun control...but not if it means voting for an ethnic, or someone who doesn't believe every sperm is sacred, or who suggests raising taxes one hundredth of one percent on any income over the fifth billion per annum. It's not really a simple question of "do you prefer mass shootings/not having mass shootings", that would be much easier to handle. And for the supposed democracy we have a legislature that doesn't have to do things just because most of the population wants it, and a judiciary that can simply undo whatever it doesn't like, and an executive hamstrung by the political opposition in the legislature. We'd probably be much more effective as a nation if we had a king but the risk there is that he might end up being an ethnic who doesn't revere sperm.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

12th May 2023, 12:06 PM	#312
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	There are lots of laws and programs we could pass that would reduce mass shootings and other violent crime. Saying we have to ban all guns or do nothing, is pretty silly and extremist.
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

12th May 2023, 12:09 PM	#313
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 66,035	Originally Posted by Hercules56 is pretty silly and extremist. Welcome to the 2020s!
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

12th May 2023, 12:18 PM	#314
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Welcome to the 2020s! "Unless you support banning all guns, you're a MAGA Republican!!!"
Hercules56 Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4,685	__________________ theliberalgunclub.com "The mission of The Liberal Gun Club is to provide a pro-Second Amendment voice for left-of-center gun owners in the national conversations on firearms."

13th May 2023, 02:58 AM	#315
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,697	Originally Posted by Hercules56 FALSE. Try again. True actually. Your "solutions" are, at best, the equivalent of Nero fiddling while Rome burnt.
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