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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 18th May 2019, 02:10 AM   #1641
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
But this book has been criticized:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial/).
A few years ago, somebody asked (on Quora):

(https://www.quora.com/When-Jews-move...ts-steal-land/)
Alon Shalev replied:
Selectively quoting from that page rather undermines your argument, old chap. I suggest you read the whole thing.

Norman Finkelstein? Noam Chomsky? Don't make me laugh.
Of course the book was criticised. It uncovered a very uncomfortable truth which the apologists for the Muslim world very much wanted to be concealed.

It is extremely well supported by evidence. I suggest you read it, rather than relying on Wikipedia reviews.
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Old 18th May 2019, 02:15 AM   #1642
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How many Jews have immigrated to lands controlled by Hamas?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is what people have been claiming the settlements are. Just normal immigration not some kind of taking land or invasion. So the settlements would have to be under the control of the palestinians as they are on their land.
How many Israeli settlements are there in lands controlled by Hamas?

Just in case ponderingturtle is still in hiding, the answer is none.
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Old 20th May 2019, 05:02 AM   #1643
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How many Israeli settlements are there in lands controlled by Hamas?

Just in case ponderingturtle is still in hiding, the answer is none.
Good so we can admit that those are illegal conquest of Palestinian territory. And the people who seem to think of them as immigration are just entirely deluded.

Of course this illegal conquest is official Israeli policy see their choice in government and Bibi. Really we can just take statements from the likud party to represent what all Israel believes.
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Old 20th May 2019, 08:10 AM   #1644
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How many Jews have immigrated to lands controlled by Hamas?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is what people have been claiming the settlements are. Just normal immigration not some kind of taking land or invasion. So the settlements would have to be under the control of the palestinians as they are on their land.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How many Israeli settlements are there in lands controlled by Hamas?

Just in case ponderingturtle is still in hiding, the answer is none.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Good so we can admit that those are illegal conquest of Palestinian territory. And the people who seem to think of them as immigration are just entirely deluded.

Of course this illegal conquest is official Israeli policy see their choice in government and Bibi. Really we can just take statements from the likud party to represent what all Israel believes.
No, ponderingturtle, we can do nothing of the sort.
Firstly, you can admit that there are no Israeli settlements in, and no Israeli immigration to, lands controlled by Hamas.
Then you can explain how not living in a place can possibly count as "illegal conquest" of that place.
Finally, you can explain how the statements from one political party can be taken to represent the entirety of the beliefs of that country, and why that logic would not also apply to Gaza. Hamas is on record, after all, in calling for the destruction of Israel and the driving of the Jews into the sea, and they were voted in to power as well.
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Old 20th May 2019, 09:00 AM   #1645
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, ponderingturtle, we can do nothing of the sort.
Firstly, you can admit that there are no Israeli settlements in, and no Israeli immigration to, lands controlled by Hamas.
Then you can explain how not living in a place can possibly count as "illegal conquest" of that place.
Now you are denying the existence of Israeli settlements in occupied territory.

That is a new move.
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Old 20th May 2019, 10:18 AM   #1646
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now you are denying the existence of Israeli settlements in occupied territory.

That is a new move.
Am I? Where? In which post?

Actually, no, don't bother answering: we all know that's not true.
You claimed there were Israeli settlements in Gaza (lands controlled by Hamas). There are not.
There is no part of that statement that denies the existence of settlements elsewhere.
You knew that, of course.
Did you teach The Big Dog, or did he learn from you?
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Old 20th May 2019, 11:30 AM   #1647
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Am I? Where? In which post?

Actually, no, don't bother answering: we all know that's not true.
You claimed there were Israeli settlements in Gaza (lands controlled by Hamas). There are not.
There is no part of that statement that denies the existence of settlements elsewhere.
You knew that, of course.
Did you teach The Big Dog, or did he learn from you?
Sorry there were plenty of such "immigrants" until the Israeli government decided that holding such lands was strategically nonviable and removed the settlers in 2005. And they focus their efforts of conquest in other Palestinian areas.

Now they are not allowed to emigrate to that area of Palestine. Of course the actions of Hamas work for taring all Palestinians not just in Gaza. So clearly as the true voice of Israel Bibi is the true spokesman for all Israelis.
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Old 20th May 2019, 12:59 PM   #1648
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now you are denying the existence of Israeli settlements in occupied territory.

That is a new move.
You seem to be unaware of several facts:
1. Jews who live in Israel are 'settlers' and have been called that since the 1890's.
There is a good book about that --- "The Settlers" by Myer Levin (sbn 671-21154-4) Simon & Shuster Pub. NY 1972.

2. Jewish presence in these lands has existed for thousands of years and was recognized as legitimate in the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations in 1922, which provided for the establishment of a Jewish state in the Jewish people's ancient homeland.

https://embassies.gov.il/abuja/About...s-and-Law.aspx

3. The way forward is for an agreed secure and peaceful resolution which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Arabs to this ancient land.
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Old Yesterday, 02:13 AM   #1649
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
You seem to be unaware of several facts:
1. Jews who live in Israel are 'settlers' and have been called that since the 1890's.
There is a good book about that --- "The Settlers" by Myer Levin (sbn 671-21154-4) Simon & Shuster Pub. NY 1972.

2. Jewish presence in these lands has existed for thousands of years and was recognized as legitimate in the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations in 1922, which provided for the establishment of a Jewish state in the Jewish people's ancient homeland.

https://embassies.gov.il/abuja/About...s-and-Law.aspx

3. The way forward is for an agreed secure and peaceful resolution which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Arabs to this ancient land.
That is a very informative link. Thanks for posting it.
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Old Yesterday, 03:59 AM   #1650
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
You seem to be unaware of several facts:
1. Jews who live in Israel are 'settlers' and have been called that since the 1890's.
There is a good book about that --- "The Settlers" by Myer Levin (sbn 671-21154-4) Simon & Shuster Pub. NY 1972.

2. Jewish presence in these lands has existed for thousands of years and was recognized as legitimate in the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations in 1922, which provided for the establishment of a Jewish state in the Jewish people's ancient homeland.

https://embassies.gov.il/abuja/About...s-and-Law.aspx

3. The way forward is for an agreed secure and peaceful resolution which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Arabs to this ancient land.
Then they should just conquer it like they did last time, kill all the men, women and boys and keep the girls as rape slaves. Stop pretending that the palestinians matter and just impose the proper jewish state.

The clear only peaceful solution you can see with that is the cleansing of palestinians from the area and a single israeli jewish state. That is totally at odds with the two state solution, which was my main point all along, the two state solution is totally unworkable and so a single state solution needs to be worked out.
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Old Yesterday, 05:48 AM   #1651
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then they should just conquer it like they did last time, kill all the men, women and boys and keep the girls as rape slaves. Stop pretending that the palestinians matter and just impose the proper Jewish state.
Beautiful strawman. You DO realize this Forum is a place where such things are normally rejected and those who promote strawmen are ridiculed?

"Stop pretending that the palestinians matter..." --- Israelis are not pretending about that. There are MANY Israelis who want to see Palestinians succeed in having good lives, in having their own democratic leadership, in working alongside us towards a peaceful cooperation.

This story is an example of Israeli-Palestinian cooperation ---
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/He...itation-590228



Quote:
The clear only peaceful solution you can see with that is the cleansing of palestinians from the area and a single israeli jewish state. That is totally at odds with the two state solution, which was my main point all along, the two state solution is totally unworkable and so a single state solution needs to be worked out.
The main problem is that the term "Two-State Solution" means one thing to the Palestinians and another to the Israelis.
The Palestinians think it means "We can continue as enemies of Israel, using the lands we gain as a base to continue efforts to dismantle Israel"

If you have not already done so, I urge you to read this proposal --
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/annou...state-solution

It contains all the elements required for a Palestine State, and provides a fair and equitable solution.
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Old Yesterday, 07:21 AM   #1652
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Beautiful strawman. You DO realize this Forum is a place where such things are normally rejected and those who promote strawmen are ridiculed?

"Stop pretending that the palestinians matter..." --- Israelis are not pretending about that. There are MANY Israelis who want to see Palestinians succeed in having good lives, in having their own democratic leadership, in working alongside us towards a peaceful cooperation.
Like they matter, the leadership by Bibi is never going to allow that to happen so these mythical moderates matter just as much as palestinian ones when presented with the rule of Hamas. Only ruling parties matter that has been the rule so far in this discussion so why change it now?

Quote:
The main problem is that the term "Two-State Solution" means one thing to the Palestinians and another to the Israelis.
The Palestinians think it means "We can continue as enemies of Israel, using the lands we gain as a base to continue efforts to dismantle Israel"

If you have not already done so, I urge you to read this proposal --
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/annou...state-solution

It contains all the elements required for a Palestine State, and provides a fair and equitable solution.
Yea and there is no way anyone is going to support that, you have to work with what the chosen leaderships goals are so it needs to be palatable to Bibi. Anything that doesn't let settlements permanently continue to expand into palestinian territory is never going to get past israel. That is the benefit of those settlements, they will never be regarded as illegal even if by basic international law they are.

You need to give up the fairytales and work with something that is possible in the real world.
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Old Yesterday, 08:17 AM   #1653
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then they should just conquer it like they did last time, kill all the men, women and boys and keep the girls as rape slaves.
Is that really what they did last time? Which 'last time' was this? Because if what you say here is true, then there cannot be any Palestinian refugees.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post

The clear only peaceful solution you can see with that is the cleansing of palestinians from the area and a single israeli jewish state. That is totally at odds with the two state solution, which was my main point all along, the two state solution is totally unworkable and so a single state solution needs to be worked out.
This is obviously not a peaceful solution, it is not what the majority of Israelis want, it is not what anyone except you has mentioned, and it is not a real world solution.
Well done.
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Old Yesterday, 08:48 AM   #1654
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Is that really what they did last time? Which 'last time' was this? Because if what you say here is true, then there cannot be any Palestinian refugees.
Exodus the first time the conquered the region.

Quote:
This is obviously not a peaceful solution, it is not what the majority of Israelis want, it is not what anyone except you has mentioned, and it is not a real world solution.
Well done.
Then come up with something that the Likud party representing the majority of what Israelis want will accept that is a peaceful solution. That is the leading party, and the one in charge that is who you need to back your solution.

Until a party that would accept the proposed solutions is elected in Israel there is no way they can even be approached. So right now we need to deal with the Likud party and their solutions to the palestinian problem.
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Old Yesterday, 09:50 AM   #1655
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The Likud certainly doesn't represent the majority of Israelis. In point of fact, the Likud received exactly the same number of mandates as Blue/White (35) so your stated position is totally unsupported by evidence.

Furthermore, the Palestinian Problem is ALSO requiring the Palestinians to help solve, which their Leaders refuse to do.

Their entire demand for 1967 Borders (1949 Lines actually) and return of refugees has no rhyme nor reason in presenting a solution for the Jews of Israel.

Gaza/N.Sinai is a legitimate path to Palestine Statehood and will alleviate the concerns of Egypr, Jordan and Israel together.

Which is a good goal to pursue.
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Old Yesterday, 10:50 AM   #1656
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The Likud certainly doesn't represent the majority of Israelis. In point of fact, the Likud received exactly the same number of mandates as Blue/White (35) so your stated position is totally unsupported by evidence.

Furthermore, the Palestinian Problem is ALSO requiring the Palestinians to help solve, which their Leaders refuse to do.

Their entire demand for 1967 Borders (1949 Lines actually) and return of refugees has no rhyme nor reason in presenting a solution for the Jews of Israel.

Gaza/N.Sinai is a legitimate path to Palestine Statehood and will alleviate the concerns of Egypr, Jordan and Israel together.

Which is a good goal to pursue.
Yes remember it is always the responsibility of the occupied not the occupier to build governments and resolve all problems of occupation. And would that projected solution" be acceptable to the Blue/white party?

And until the palestinians accept and enjoy israel being their they will of course lose more and more land as is proper. As all the best leaders say "the beatings will continue until morale improves"
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Old Yesterday, 11:25 AM   #1657
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It seems to me that ponderingturtle isn't very much interested in new ways of looking at this conflict and/or unique designs to unravel the mess.

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...336349,00.html

I am pretty much convinced he is just another naysayer who remains a part of the problem and not willing to work towards a solution.

Let's keep one thing in mind.
Palestinians & Israelis cooperate on a wide range of matters daily, and are linked in a variety of ways, including trade, banking, transportation, air rights, water distribution, taxation, medical treatments, work opportunities, electromagnetic spectrum, electricity, fuel and much more.

Gaza/N. Sinai is quite realistic, and is being formulated by the echelons in
Washington DC, Riyadh, Cairo, Amman, Jerusalem etc.

The idea ponderingturtle is promoting here that it's NOT supported simply has no basis.

Last edited by webfusion; Yesterday at 11:28 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 11:30 AM   #1658
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
It seems to me that ponderingturtle isn't very much interested in new ways of looking at this conflict and/or unique designs to unravel the mess.

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...336349,00.html

I am pretty much convinced he is just another naysayer who remains a part of the problem and not willing to work towards a solution.

Let's keep one thing in mind.
Palestinians & Israelis cooperate on a wide range of matters daily, and are linked in a variety of ways, including trade, banking, transportation, air rights, water distribution, taxation, medical treatments, work opportunities, electromagnetic spectrum, electricity, fuel and much more.

Gaza/N. Sinai is quite realistic, and is being formulated by the echelons in
Washington DC, Riyadh, Cairo, Amman, Jerusalem etc.

The idea ponderingturtle is promoting here that it's NOT supported simply has no basis.
Sure aside from the actual support of the elected leadership. This is about as realistic as brexit turning out well. Walls, bombings and more settlements are all that we will live to see. That is what has the political will behind it and what will continue.
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Old Yesterday, 12:31 PM   #1659
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For one thing, as of today, there isn't any elected leadership in Israel. There's a caretaker gov't. and nothing more than that exists.

Secondly, Israelis will indeed continue to live on lands that have been part of Judaism's core for millenia, including Hebron and Jerusalem.

Thirdly, walls are there to PREVENT infiltration of homicide bombers. The barrier is effective.

As for Gaza/N.Sinai, the Egyptian leader is going to have to decide on that, as it requires ceding land in N. Sinai that is currently a base for ISIL terrorists.

I personally think you have a very limited imagination about what is possible.
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Old Today, 02:14 AM   #1660
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exodus the first time the conquered the region.
Are you seriously quoting the Bible as a source of accurate historical information?


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then come up with something that the Likud party representing the majority of what Israelis want will accept that is a peaceful solution. That is the leading party, and the one in charge that is who you need to back your solution.

Until a party that would accept the proposed solutions is elected in Israel there is no way they can even be approached. So right now we need to deal with the Likud party and their solutions to the palestinian problem.
As you now know, only a minority of Israelis voted for Likud.
You are also probably unaware that Hamas received almost 45% of the vote in the election that brought it to power.
This means that a greater percentage of Palestinians oppose a peaceful solution and co-existence than Israelis do, even assuming that Likud is dedicated to the extinction of the Palestinians (which is highly debatable at best).
Your argument would be better suited if turned against the Palestinian Arabs.
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Old Today, 10:18 AM   #1661
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Meanwhile, Israel is requesting the elimination of UNRWA. That agency promotes hatred and incites.

Danny Danon speaks about it here ---
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/263549
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Old Today, 01:05 PM   #1662
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
As you now know, only a minority of Israelis voted for Likud.
You are also probably unaware that Hamas received almost 45% of the vote in the election that brought it to power.
Also a minority, so clearly just because they are in power winning a minority of the vote means they have no moral responsibility for the situation like Likud.
Quote:
This means that a greater percentage of Palestinians oppose a peaceful solution and co-existence than Israelis do, even assuming that Likud is dedicated to the extinction of the Palestinians (which is highly debatable at best).
Your argument would be better suited if turned against the Palestinian Arabs.
Not necessarily, there are of course the more extreme parties that get Likud its ruling coalition for example. And so what? This would be like arguing that the US has no responsibility for the creation of ISIS and the civil wars in Iraq because clearly it is all their own fault. Clearly the occupying force has no different moral obligations than the occupied.
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Old Today, 01:09 PM   #1663
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The most realistic peace plan will be to wait for the region to become uninhabitable due to global warming really.
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