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Tags Amy Adams , Ellie France , Mark Lundy , murder cases , New Zealand cases

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Old 18th March 2015, 12:43 AM   #441
The Atheist
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Meanwhile the defence says the spot is lamb chops and the prosecution said it is Christine's brain. The process is broken.
This is zarking ridiculous.

We're in 2015 - how is it not possible to say with 100% confidence what it is?

To me, one of the "experts" should be charged with perjury. Not sure which one though.
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Old 18th March 2015, 12:58 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is zarking ridiculous.

We're in 2015 - how is it not possible to say with 100% confidence what it is?

To me, one of the "experts" should be charged with perjury. Not sure which one though.
Yep. I know who I'd pick
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Old 18th March 2015, 11:31 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is zarking ridiculous.

We're in 2015 - how is it not possible to say with 100% confidence what it is?

To me, one of the "experts" should be charged with perjury. Not sure which one though.

Because 2015 or not, the samples are too small (not enough cellular material) and too degraded to make any kind of accurate determination. Several scientists have explained this while just one has claimed to know for certain, using a method which

1. he invented himself
2. he tested by using his chicken dinner.
3. has never been used in court before the first Lundy trial
4. AFAIK, hasn't been used in the 15 years since, until this trial
5. has been labelled "junk science" by every other forensic scientist involved in the case

He has also been well paid for his testimony, and has had a couple of free trips to NZ for his trouble. On top of all that, he comes from Texas, a state that has something of a reputation for crooked forensics supporting shady police prosecutions.
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Old 18th March 2015, 12:51 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because 2015 or not, the samples are too small (not enough cellular material) and too degraded to make any kind of accurate determination. Several scientists have explained this while just one has claimed to know for certain, using a method which

1. he invented himself
2. he tested by using his chicken dinner.
3. has never been used in court before the first Lundy trial
4. AFAIK, hasn't been used in the 15 years since, until this trial
5. has been labelled "junk science" by every other forensic scientist involved in the case

He has also been well paid for his testimony, and has had a couple of free trips to NZ for his trouble. On top of all that, he comes from Texas, a state that has something of a reputation for crooked forensics supporting shady police prosecutions.
Then it should be easy for the jury to ignore his evidence.
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Old 18th March 2015, 12:57 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Then it should be easy for the jury to ignore his evidence.
The jury should be considering how this spot was found months later, when 5 hours after returning from the most gory murder in NZ history there was no trace of the crime in his close environment. But they won't, because trials don't work that way.
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Old 18th March 2015, 01:09 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
CNS tissue in meat products isn't as unlikely as you might think, in the UK it was discovered as probable cause of vCJD, through ingestion of BSE infected meat:



- NZ apparently doesn't regulate the use of mechanically recovered meat



- when Lundy's car was seized on the day of the murders, police found a wrapper for a beef and chilli pie
- what were the content and labelling standards for pies back in 2001? I think the bar is set pretty low
There was a cluster of deaths from CJD in New Zealand in 2003 to 2004 which was statistically inexplicable.

Variant CJD, a more aggressive strain of the disease, was identified in the UK in 1996. Symptoms are similar to classic CJD but the disease progresses more rapidly and usually affects people in the 16-52 year age group, whereas classical CJD tends to affect people over 60 years. There is now evidence that variant CJD is caused by eating meat infected with bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE), described as "mad cow disease".

http://www.alzheimers.org.nz/about-d...-jakob-disease

Last edited by Samson; 18th March 2015 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 18th March 2015, 03:25 PM   #447
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Samson, did you read Steve Braunias' story about "Witness X" in this morning's Herald? It's a laugh. It would be even more of a laugh if you and I - the NZ taxpayer - weren't paying for all this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11419476

Another example of shoddy police work. Did they not bother to corroborate this guy's story? The defence disproved it in 2 seconds flat, yet here he is as a Crown witness. If you think about it, what he claims Lundy said doesn't make sense for Lundy to say anyway. *If* Lundy did it, whether Amber saw him or not makes no difference to whether he got away with it or not - the difference would just be one murder instead of two.
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Old 18th March 2015, 03:44 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
Samson, did you read Steve Braunias' story about "Witness X" in this morning's Herald? It's a laugh. It would be even more of a laugh if you and I - the NZ taxpayer - weren't paying for all this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11419476

Another example of shoddy police work. Did they not bother to corroborate this guy's story? The defence disproved it in 2 seconds flat, yet here he is as a Crown witness. If you think about it, what he claims Lundy said doesn't make sense for Lundy to say anyway. *If* Lundy did it, whether Amber saw him or not makes no difference to whether he got away with it or not - the difference would just be one murder instead of two.
I actually posted the full text on Desert Fox's jail house snitch thread. Steve Braunias used to irritate me with his sanctimonious criticism of right of center politics, but his reporting on this case has been a hilarious treatment of the lunatics running NZ trials. These police prosecutors are taking the taxpayer for a merry ride. I had little sympathy for Ewan McDonald, despite it being obvious early on he could not be simultaneously shooting his brother in law and disabling the cow shed alarm several kilometers away, but this prosecution is an execrable disgrace that should be the subject of a withering royal commission of inquiry. I hope Lundy gets a million a year for time served, even if he did organise the crime, which I discount other than the residual logical possibility.
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Old 18th March 2015, 04:48 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
Another example of shoddy police work. Did they not bother to corroborate this guy's story? The defence disproved it in 2 seconds flat, yet here he is as a Crown witness. If you think about it, what he claims Lundy said doesn't make sense for Lundy to say anyway. *If* Lundy did it, whether Amber saw him or not makes no difference to whether he got away with it or not - the difference would just be one murder instead of two.
This would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

Honestly, did the prosecution even CHECK to see if this alleged discussion between Lundy and Witness X could have taken place? They have access to the same prison records the defence do...did they really think the defence wouldn't notice?
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Old 18th March 2015, 07:46 PM   #450
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Unreal.

Prosecution must have reached an all-time low in NZ.

I'm gonna downgrade that time taken to return a not guilty verdict to 2 minutes.
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Old 18th March 2015, 08:14 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Unreal.

Prosecution must have reached an all-time low in NZ.

I'm gonna downgrade that time taken to return a not guilty verdict to 2 minutes.
"The people" all think he's guilty as sin. I get it whenever I mention the case. They will acquit, and there will be stunned mullet everywhere for breakfast.

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Old 18th March 2015, 10:51 PM   #452
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This is new to me, does he have an alibi?

Under cross examination by defence lawyer Ross Burns, Ms Curran said another man was also being looked at in relation to the murders.
The man, who was granted name suppression, lived near the Lundys and had previously worked with Mrs Lundy.
Mr Burns said the man had been involved in a violent stabbing incident that resulted in him having psychiatric help.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11419998

I am no expert, but this man will be a P user, he looks an ideal candidate, if he has no alibi.

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Old 18th March 2015, 11:39 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is new to me, does he have an alibi?

Under cross examination by defence lawyer Ross Burns, Ms Curran said another man was also being looked at in relation to the murders.
The man, who was granted name suppression, lived near the Lundys and had previously worked with Mrs Lundy.
Mr Burns said the man had been involved in a violent stabbing incident that resulted in him having psychiatric help.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11419998

I am no expert, but this man will be a P user, he looks an ideal candidate, if he has no alibi.
New one on me too. I wonder how thoroughly they investigated him (or any of the other 55 suspects) or whether just having a 7pm alibi was enough to get you off the suspect list?
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Old 19th March 2015, 12:11 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
New one on me too. I wonder how thoroughly they investigated him (or any of the other 55 suspects) or whether just having a 7pm alibi was enough to get you off the suspect list?
If this guy has no alibi he is text book suspect, a pattern I have seen in all the referenced cases from the US. Nearby and related behaviour, and as Charlie has said, potential personal cause. Name suppression is a great idea. Of course the community should never be alerted to the identity of some one who has been involved in a vicious knife attack. Hmm, name suppression here. He must be a model citizen now.
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Old 19th March 2015, 01:06 AM   #455
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Unless you are about ninety the timing of travel is pretty realistic
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Old 19th March 2015, 01:33 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Unless you are about ninety the timing of travel is pretty realistic
Are you saying he drove north and killed according to the original theory? Then there is no reason for the crown to abandon it and suggest a time of death that is precluded by two autopsies.

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Old 19th March 2015, 03:31 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is new to me, does he have an alibi?

Under cross examination by defence lawyer Ross Burns, Ms Curran said another man was also being looked at in relation to the murders.
The man, who was granted name suppression, lived near the Lundys and had previously worked with Mrs Lundy.
Mr Burns said the man had been involved in a violent stabbing incident that resulted in him having psychiatric help.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11419998

I am no expert, but this man will be a P user, he looks an ideal candidate, if he has no alibi.
I wonder of this is the guy that the Lundy supporter's website claims made a death threat against Christine.
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Old 19th March 2015, 03:41 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Unless you are about ninety the timing of travel is pretty realistic
Forget about it. The Petone - Palmerston North - Petone early evening return trip to commit the murders is not just very unlikely, its been shown to be impossible. Basically, on the open road sections of the trip, he would have needed to average over 200 km/h

I have explained it more fully here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post10494219
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Old 19th March 2015, 03:56 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I wonder of this is the guy that the Lundy supporter's website claims made a death threat against Christine.

That article also says that Lundy testified his wife sleeps naked, so that answers the questions earlier in the thread as to whether it was odd that she was found naked. Looks to me like she had gone to bed.
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Old 19th March 2015, 06:28 AM   #460
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"...I told him it was a bank robbery and I wouldn't be in there if it wasn't for my mum telling the police..."

Anybody else find it amusing that the snitch's mum is also a snitch! Perhaps snitchery has some genetic component.
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Old 19th March 2015, 09:22 PM   #461
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I am just hearing on radio that the alternative suspect that worked with/ for Christine Lundy and has been involved in "a vicious knife attack" was asleep in his parents' home the night of the killings. The parents are unable/unwilling to confirm he was home all night. It sounds as though he is the killer. Did Lundy wind him up about what a rotten way his wife had treated him?
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Old 20th March 2015, 02:38 AM   #462
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The facts should be assembled.
1. Mark Lundy has a complete alibi.
2. Someone who has a psychopathic record lives nearby. He was the perpetrator of a viscious knife attack on an unspecified occasion. He worked with or for Christine Lundy.
3. He lived with his parents, they declined to confirm he was home all night while the killings occurred.
4. Amber Lundy's normal bedtime was 8pm, her bed was described as unslept in.
5. Christine Lundy was naked when killed, she always slept naked, and normally read her emails, turned the computer off, and retired at 11pm.

Questions:

Did she read her emails between 8pm and 11 pm?
If not, who turned off the computer?
Was the psychopath sexually involved with Christine Lundy, Mark Lundy is reported to have been denied sex since she was deemed infertile.

I have no idea or more information, I am just trying to find a way through the maze.
Something exact happened.

Last edited by Samson; 20th March 2015 at 02:39 AM.
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Old 22nd March 2015, 10:31 PM   #463
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Defence finds a new gastric specialist

The prosecution counter by saying the meal was fish and chips (after the MacDonalds?)
This can conceivably delay the killing (by the knife offending criminal who lived nearby without an alibi and was known to Christine) to just after Christine Lundy turned off the computer.

Also giving evidence today was Professor Michael Horowitz from Adelaide University's medical department who said Mrs Lundy and Amber would have eaten their last meal no longer than two hours before they were killed based on evidence that the top part of the small intestine being empty.
They had eaten a McDonalds meal in the early evening, but prosecution lawyer Ben Vanderkolk said the food seen in Mrs Lundy's stomach during her post mortem exam were potato chips and fish and chip-style chips and possibly fish, which were not part of the McDonald's meal.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=11421628
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Old 23rd March 2015, 12:52 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Defence finds a new gastric specialist

The prosecution counter by saying the meal was fish and chips (after the MacDonalds?)
The idea that the two of them were up after midnight eating fish and chips is laughable. (Where did these magical fish and chips come from?). They would have to have eaten them, at the very earliest, at 12:20 am, since

Quote:
Also giving evidence today was Professor Michael Horowitz from Adelaide University's medical department who said Mrs Lundy and Amber would have eaten their last meal no longer than two hours before they were killed based on evidence that the top part of the small intestine being empty.
and we know the prostitute left the motel at 12:48 am. Even if Lundy had immediately jumped into his car and made a mad 1 1/2 hr dash back to PN, the earliest he could have arrived to kill them was 2:20 am.

Honestly, their original TOD makes more sense than this one, at least it agrees with the autopsy evidence, and doesn't require invocation of an additional meal on top of the McDonalds. Either way, between the cellphone calls, the prostitute timing, and the stomach contents, Lundy has an unbreakable alibi.

Last edited by Hard Cheese; 23rd March 2015 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 01:14 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
The idea that the two of them were up after midnight eating fish and chips is laughable. (Where did these magical fish and chips come from?). They would have to have eaten them, at the very earliest, at 12:20 am, since



and we know the prostitute left the motel at 12:48 am. Even if Lundy had immediately jumped into his car and made a mad 1 1/2 hr dash back to PN, the earliest he could have arrived to kill them was 2:20 am.

Honestly, their original TOD makes more sense than this one, at least it agrees with the autopsy evidence, and doesn't require invocation of an additional meal on top of the McDonalds. Either way, between the cellphone calls, the prostitute timing, and the stomach contents, Lundy has an unbreakable alibi.
Hard Cheese, I never heard of the alternate suspect till last week. Did you? He appears to be text book, indeed walks and quacks like duck.
However, there are issues. He also needed to have disposable overalls and so on, and while his parents are unable to confirm an alibi, there is a prodigious amount of successful disposal of incriminating material for any suspect to achieve, and drug influenced sociopaths seem unlikely to get the skill set working perfectly.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 02:50 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Hard Cheese, I never heard of the alternate suspect till last week. Did you? He appears to be text book, indeed walks and quacks like duck.
However, there are issues. He also needed to have disposable overalls and so on, and while his parents are unable to confirm an alibi, there is a prodigious amount of successful disposal of incriminating material for any suspect to achieve, and drug influenced sociopaths seem unlikely to get the skill set working perfectly.
Really?

If Lundy did it, he had the problem of disposing of all this blood and gore contaminated material before he drove back to Petone. That is a very small window for clean-up, perhaps just a few minutes if the early TOD its to be believed, an hour or two in the early morning TOD scenario (and where could he have cleaned up anyway - not in his house because Police forensics surely have checked the shower and bathroom drain traps)

However, the alternate suspect would have no such constraints. He had all night to put all the blood soaked clothing into a rubbish bag, gone into his house, showered and gone to bed and then disposed of the evidence the next day at the council refuse station. As far as we know, the alternate suspect's home was never forensically tested.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 03:05 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Really?

If Lundy did it, he had the problem of disposing of all this blood and gore contaminated material before he drove back to Petone. That is a very small window for clean-up, perhaps just a few minutes if the early TOD its to be believed, an hour or two in the early morning TOD scenario (and where could he have cleaned up anyway - not in his house because Police forensics surely have checked the shower and bathroom drain traps)

However, the alternate suspect would have no such constraints. He had all night to put all the blood soaked clothing into a rubbish bag, gone into his house, showered and gone to bed and then disposed of the evidence the next day at the council refuse station. As far as we know, the alternate suspect's home was never forensically tested.
Obviously the alternate suspect is ideal, but this forum requires questioning.
Cross examining of the parents would seem a great idea.
My presumption is that this did not occur, but this should be easy to establish.

Last edited by Samson; 23rd March 2015 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 03:33 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Hard Cheese, I never heard of the alternate suspect till last week. Did you? He appears to be text book, indeed walks and quacks like duck.
However, there are issues. He also needed to have disposable overalls and so on, and while his parents are unable to confirm an alibi, there is a prodigious amount of successful disposal of incriminating material for any suspect to achieve, and drug influenced sociopaths seem unlikely to get the skill set working perfectly.

Why are the disposable overalls suddenly a given? As far as I could tell, they existed only in The Atheist's imagination. Without crime scene photos we have no idea how gory that room really was and I find some of the descriptions we've heard to be completely unbelievable.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 05:23 AM   #469
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Originally Posted by lonepinealex View Post
Why are the disposable overalls suddenly a given? As far as I could tell, they existed only in The Atheist's imagination. Without crime scene photos we have no idea how gory that room really was and I find some of the descriptions we've heard to be completely unbelievable.
lonepinealex, it is surprising there is a text book alternative suspect, who matches one who Charlie Wilkes suggested.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=119

This suspect is profiled by Charlie, but I know that he would not convict this man without more evidence.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 07:26 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Hard Cheese, I never heard of the alternate suspect till last week. Did you? He appears to be text book, indeed walks and quacks like duck.
No, I'd never heard of him either. From his profile he'd be a prime suspect, and at the very least you'd think they'd investigate him very thoroughly. Doesn't sound like they did...maybe the police had Lundy tunnel vision by that time and were concentrating their effort on making a case against him.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 07:32 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Really?
(...)
However, the alternate suspect would have no such constraints. He had all night to put all the blood soaked clothing into a rubbish bag, gone into his house, showered and gone to bed and then disposed of the evidence the next day at the council refuse station. As far as we know, the alternate suspect's home was never forensically tested.
A very good point - there wasn't any need for him to do a thorough clean up. His clothes, the murder weapon, and presumably the jewellery box could have simply ended up in the landfill, never to be seen again.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 07:35 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by lonepinealex View Post
Why are the disposable overalls suddenly a given?
Exactly - they're only a given for Lundy, because he and his car are magically devoid of any blood. The alternative suspect could have worn any old thing, and taken his sweet time to dispose of it.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 01:02 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by lonepinealex View Post
Why are the disposable overalls suddenly a given? As far as I could tell, they existed only in The Atheist's imagination. Without crime scene photos we have no idea how gory that room really was and I find some of the descriptions we've heard to be completely unbelievable.
Imagination?

You don't thin k the crime scene description given on many occasions stating that blood was splattered all over the room means the perp would have been equally well-splattered?

Even if I hadn't seen the photos I could have worked that out. Disposable overalls weren't essential, but would have been particularly helpful because it is undoubted the perp had lots of blood on him.

That speaks to premeditation, because no blood-stained clothing has ever turned up, so there seems a very strong likelihood the murder weapon was picked beforehand and that blood contamination expected.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 01:04 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Imagination?

You don't thin k the crime scene description given on many occasions stating that blood was splattered all over the room means the perp would have been equally well-splattered?

Even if I hadn't seen the photos I could have worked that out. Disposable overalls weren't essential, but would have been particularly helpful because it is undoubted the perp had lots of blood on him.

That speaks to premeditation, because no blood-stained clothing has ever turned up, so there seems a very strong likelihood the murder weapon was picked beforehand and that blood contamination expected.

Only if you assume Lundy did it. Circular reasoning.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 02:04 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Imagination?

You don't thin k the crime scene description given on many occasions stating that blood was splattered all over the room means the perp would have been equally well-splattered?

Even if I hadn't seen the photos I could have worked that out. Disposable overalls weren't essential, but would have been particularly helpful because it is undoubted the perp had lots of blood on him.

That speaks to premeditation, because no blood-stained clothing has ever turned up, so there seems a very strong likelihood the murder weapon was picked beforehand and that blood contamination expected.
If not Lundy, then the random perp could simply have disposed of all the clothes he happened to be wearing when he committed the murders; shirt, shoes, socks, pants, underwear. Since the Police got tunnel vision for Lundy very early in the investigation, other random perps had any amount of time to permanently dispose of the bloodstained clothing as they were never investigated.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 02:26 PM   #476
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I wonder why there is no report of attempting to speak to the parents. It is completely legal for a lay investigator to walk up the garden path and knock on the door. A refusal to engage would strongly suggest a woefully inadequate alibi for the son. They would be in intense denial that their son could be a monster of this proportion, and would accordingly have blanked the possibility from their minds with a measure of relief that Lundy was jailed.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 05:15 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
They would be in intense denial that their son could be a monster of this proportion, and would accordingly have blanked the possibility from their minds with a measure of relief that Lundy was jailed.
Remember the Emily Longley murder in the UK, not that long ago - the parents were convicted of destroying evidence to cover up for their son.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 06:38 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by Hard Cheese View Post
Remember the Emily Longley murder in the UK, not that long ago - the parents were convicted of destroying evidence to cover up for their son.

Is that the one where Police recorded them talking about it.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 06:59 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by lonepinealex View Post
Only if you assume Lundy did it. Circular reasoning.
Nonsense. It applies equally to whoever the perpetrator is.

Getting rid of blood-soaked clothing permanently would not be easy. Where do they dump it? If you've committed a double murder and don't want to be caught, the clothes would need to be burnt, or buried somewhere they could not be dug up.

If the person was smart enough to cover their tracks - as they absolutely were - then I don't believe they would have chucked them in a public bin of any kind, and would not have thrown in a rubbish sack. Far too many things could happen, dog opens the bag - whatever.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If not Lundy, then the random perp could simply have disposed of all the clothes he happened to be wearing when he committed the murders; shirt, shoes, socks, pants, underwear. Since the Police got tunnel vision for Lundy very early in the investigation, other random perps had any amount of time to permanently dispose of the bloodstained clothing as they were never investigated.
Except it makes no sense.

They did not know they had lots of time, and I'd lay my life that the clothes were disposed of extremely quickly.

The clothes form the only evidence that could provide 100% certainty of guilt, so leaving them anywhere would not be a valid option.
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Old 23rd March 2015, 08:16 PM   #480
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nonsense. It applies equally to whoever the perpetrator is.
It applies moreso to Lundy because he would have had a *very* limited window of time and location for disposal.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Getting rid of blood-soaked clothing permanently would not be easy. Where do they dump it? If you've committed a double murder and don't want to be caught, the clothes would need to be burnt, or buried somewhere they could not be dug up.
How about in a landfill along with tens of thousands of other rubbish bags? Yes, theoretically they could be dug up, but every day the police spent with their Lundy goggles on, the less likely that would be.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
(...)I don't believe they would have chucked them in a public bin of any kind, and would not have thrown in a rubbish sack. Far too many things could happen, dog opens the bag - whatever.
Come on, really. The chances of that happening would so low as to be well down on his list of risks. Put it unseen into a bin far enough away, and the likelihood of the police ever finding it would be remote.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
The clothes form the only evidence that could provide 100% certainty of guilt, so leaving them anywhere would not be a valid option.
All he'd need to do is stick the blood-soaked clothing in a bucket of hot water and oxygen bleach for maybe 12 hours, he could probably wear it to a police interview and not get caught.

Last edited by Hard Cheese; 23rd March 2015 at 08:21 PM.
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