ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

Reply
Old 4th August 2016, 10:24 AM   #441
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." - Christopher Hitchens
So I dismiss your claim of someone lying, which you asserted without evidence.

Quote:
You don't understand how an evidence based worldview works.


Quote:
The burden of proof is on the one who makes the allegations.
Yes, that's surprisingly quite right. So...when can we expect your evidence for your allegation?

Quote:
That's why "innocent until proven guilty" is a foundational principle of Western justice systems.
Really?

Quote:
The willingness to publish them, believe them, and then teach them in a collegiate setting as truth after the allegations have been discredited for lack of proof is certainly irrational and bigoted. Anti-Semitism is the leading contender as to what type of irrational bigotry it derives from.
The thing that you can't seem to grasp is that it's equally irrational and bigoted to claim without proof that the allegations are false or the journalist to be lying, let alone doing so because of being antisemitic.

Quote:
There is nothing odd about anti-Semitism either.
You know what is even less odd? Criticism of Israel which is not antisemitic.

Quote:
That and similar forms of irrational bigotry are common.
Yes, very true.

Quote:
Yes, there is.

"Bizarre" is not synonymous with "unique".
Let me guess, "bizarre" is not going to have any sort of objective definition, is it?

Quote:
And again, that it's taught in a collegiate setting without evidence is the issue.
Wait, just earlier the issue seemed to be a journalist who was purportedly lying?

Quote:
The example you gave was not one of them.


Quote:
I suppose if you think it's okay to teach "history" that's discredited for lacking evidence
I suppose if planets were cubical it would be easier to design fast data structures describing their surface features.

Quote:
you would find a well educated person who is very knowledgeable about history and social issues finding parallels between what is happening today with what has happened in the past to be "bizarre".
I find it bizarre for someone to argue that accusations of war crimes against Israel are a priori antisemitic based on mythical considerations. It amounts to giving a free pass to potential war crimes: "don't worry guys, we won't investigate or look into allegations, because muh mythical stuff". Also, your appeal to "well educated" nets you your first 10 points, congratulations.

Quote:
It is a very real fallacy as a sub-set of "tu quoque" arguments.
No it isn't.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 4th August 2016 at 11:00 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 10:31 AM   #442
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by LeoMajor View Post
I'm sorry, but you are wrong about everything. The Israelis, as far as I know, committed a number of expulsions, but they did not plan form the beginning to relocate the entire Arab population. They did not have explicit plans for enslavement of the locals, as the Nazis did, and they did not plan, ad far as I know, to withhold education and medical care from the locals.

That is not meant to minimalize Israeli crimes, but to make clear that the Nazis were obviously in a different league. There can be no comparison.
It's just fascinating how you spend an entire paragraph on making a comparison and then claim that "there can be no comparison." Besides, plans for expulsion of the Arab population in preparation for Jewish settlement are well documented.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 10:52 AM   #443
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
And on top of that, Israel hasn't:

1) Set out to starve 80% of Palestine's population
2) Reduced the survivors to illiterate peasants
3) Forced palestinians to march across minefields and shoot them if an Israeli officer stepped on amine
4) Kidnapped Palestinian women and forced them into sexual slavery
5) Rounded Palestinians into barns and mosques before burning them to the ground and shooting any survivors
Not only is this irrelevant but it also wrong. Anyway, Zionism having a lebensraum concept it is then.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 10:59 AM   #444
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,987
Frankly, I have problems taking anybody who has the kind of slogans you have seriously.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 11:06 AM   #445
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Frankly, I have problems taking anybody who has the kind of slogans you have seriously.
What slogans?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 11:19 AM   #446
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 10,209
This is post 445+ in the third version of this thread. Still waiting for certain quarters to post a cogent argument as to realistic policy heading toward a viable and lasting solution.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 11:33 AM   #447
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,261
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What slogans?
My favorite example:
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Blah blah blah
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 12:23 PM   #448
carlvs
Critical Thinker
 
carlvs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Chicago - Edgewater
Posts: 432
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
This is post 445+ in the third version of this thread. Still waiting for certain quarters to post a cogent argument as to realistic policy heading toward a viable and lasting solution.
Unfortunately, this is not the thread for that - rather it is where people come and accuse each other of being either an anti-Semite or anti-Palestinian...
carlvs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 02:45 PM   #449
NWO Sentryman
Proud NWO Gatekeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,910
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not only is this irrelevant but it also wrong. Anyway, Zionism having a lebensraum concept it is then.
You really have no idea of what the Eastern front really was like.
__________________
If I now say "dominoes", you won't think "pizza". Will you? - FireGarden on the Middle East
NWO Sentryman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 02:56 PM   #450
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
You really have no idea of what the Eastern front really was like.
You really have no idea of what others have an idea of.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 03:21 PM   #451
NWO Sentryman
Proud NWO Gatekeeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,910
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You really have no idea of what others have an idea of.
The phrase "Lebensraum" has a lot of baggage, especially the Hunger Plan, which was the german plan to exterminate 80% of eastern Europe's population through slave labour and go full Pol Pot in Russia.
__________________
If I now say "dominoes", you won't think "pizza". Will you? - FireGarden on the Middle East
NWO Sentryman is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 04:52 PM   #452
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
For that agreement:
- No negotiation should be started in earnest, nor will be, unless part of a comprehensive regional plan for peace in Israel and Palestine. The precondition for honest negotiation which would have a chance of succeeding requires a genuine, lasting, full-throated and sincere acceptance of Israel's right to exist, and full demilitarization of the conflict with all its neighboring nation-states - including Palestine - in order for anyone to expect any sort of concession from Israel. Until that happens, until the present and constant danger is entirely removed, and no credible political or religious threat remains in force, no dice.
Utter Baloney.

No nation on earth formally recognizes another government's "right to exist" - because they'd be unwilling to accept all the baggage that comes with such a declaration. This "right to exist" is just a way to stall and prevent honest negotiations.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 07:10 PM   #453
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,527
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Utter Baloney.

No nation on earth formally recognizes another government's "right to exist" - because they'd be unwilling to accept all the baggage that comes with such a declaration. This "right to exist" is just a way to stall and prevent honest negotiations.
Exactly what baggage do you think would go along with that?

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 07:30 PM   #454
trustbutverify
Philosopher
 
trustbutverify's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,371
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Exactly what baggage do you think would go along with that?
It might present a conflict with the aim of erasing her from the pages of time.
__________________
"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." -- Mahatma Gandhi

Wollen owns the stage
trustbutverify is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 08:49 PM   #455
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
It might present a conflict with the aim of erasing her from the pages of time.
Find me the document where the United States, or anyone else, claims that Israel has a "right to exist" - or that any other country/government has a "right to exist".
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2016, 10:24 PM   #456
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,100
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Utter Baloney.

No nation on earth formally recognizes another government's "right to exist" - because they'd be unwilling to accept all the baggage that comes with such a declaration.
Actually, what you're saying is utter baloney. The overwhelming majority of nations on earth formally recognize the "right to exist" of the overwhelming majority of other official nations on earth. That's not the same thing as directly supporting their continued existence or accepting that they should so much as lift a finger to help them continue to exist, as you seem to want to claim here. To address what the "right to exist" issue actually really deals with, rather than what you seem to want to expand it to mean, there are a number of governments that do not formally recognize other governments, and, at heart, the "right to exist" point is actually little more than a demand to recognize that Israel is a legitimate country, rather than simply a power that is illegitimately occupying/laying claim to the area. This likely wouldn't be a huge deal with regards to Israel and the Palestinians if the Arabs weren't the ones who have tried to use that as partial, but notable justification to attack and try to destroy Israel, repeatedly, before getting to the other diplomatic issues like their refusal to accept peace plans for reasons related to such.

Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
This "right to exist" is just a way to stall and prevent honest negotiations.
Even if it were, that still wouldn't change that, in this particular conflict, it's one of the necessary and completely reasonable concessions for the remaining hostile Arab sides to make if they actually wanted co-existence with Israel, rather than just a cease-fire that they'd be happy to break the moment they thought they could destroy Israel.

For those of us who would prefer a lasting peace in the region and the quality of life to rise throughout the region, it's not even remotely just a way to stall or prevent honest negotiations. Rather, it's a way to help ensure honest negotiations and a far better outcome. At an even lower level, though, if one side won't even pretend to want co-existence, why would the other side just give them free rein to try to harm them? It would be a bit like Person A walking up to Person B and saying "I want to kill you. Now let me have a gun." As a general rule, Person B would have to be an utter idiot to just let Person A do as they pleased.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 4th August 2016 at 10:58 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 01:15 AM   #457
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 10,209
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Actually, what you're saying is utter baloney. The overwhelming majority of nations on earth formally recognize the "right to exist" of the overwhelming majority of other official nations on earth. That's not the same thing as directly supporting their continued existence or accepting that they should so much as lift a finger to help them continue to exist, as you seem to want to claim here. To address what the "right to exist" issue actually really deals with, rather than what you seem to want to expand it to mean, there are a number of governments that do not formally recognize other governments, and, at heart, the "right to exist" point is actually little more than a demand to recognize that Israel is a legitimate country, rather than simply a power that is illegitimately occupying/laying claim to the area. This likely wouldn't be a huge deal with regards to Israel and the Palestinians if the Arabs weren't the ones who have tried to use that as partial, but notable justification to attack and try to destroy Israel, repeatedly, before getting to the other diplomatic issues like their refusal to accept peace plans for reasons related to such.



Even if it were, that still wouldn't change that, in this particular conflict, it's one of the necessary and completely reasonable concessions for the remaining hostile Arab sides to make if they actually wanted co-existence with Israel, rather than just a cease-fire that they'd be happy to break the moment they thought they could destroy Israel.

For those of us who would prefer a lasting peace in the region and the quality of life to rise throughout the region, it's not even remotely just a way to stall or prevent honest negotiations. Rather, it's a way to help ensure honest negotiations and a far better outcome. At an even lower level, though, if one side won't even pretend to want co-existence, why would the other side just give them free rein to try to harm them? It would be a bit like Person A walking up to Person B and saying "I want to kill you. Now let me have a gun." As a general rule, Person B would have to be an utter idiot to just let Person A do as they pleased.
I love it when I can kick back and not have to do a write-up myself. My lazy bones thank you!
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 02:40 AM   #458
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Actually, what you're saying is utter baloney. The overwhelming majority of nations on earth formally recognize the "right to exist" of the overwhelming majority of other official nations on earth. That's not the same thing as directly supporting their continued existence or accepting that they should so much as lift a finger to help them continue to exist, as you seem to want to claim here. To address what the "right to exist" issue actually really deals with, rather than what you seem to want to expand it to mean, there are a number of governments that do not formally recognize other governments, and, at heart, the "right to exist" point is actually little more than a demand to recognize that Israel is a legitimate country, rather than simply a power that is illegitimately occupying/laying claim to the area. This likely wouldn't be a huge deal with regards to Israel and the Palestinians if the Arabs weren't the ones who have tried to use that as partial, but notable justification to attack and try to destroy Israel, repeatedly, before getting to the other diplomatic issues like their refusal to accept peace plans for reasons related to such.



Even if it were, that still wouldn't change that, in this particular conflict, it's one of the necessary and completely reasonable concessions for the remaining hostile Arab sides to make if they actually wanted co-existence with Israel, rather than just a cease-fire that they'd be happy to break the moment they thought they could destroy Israel.

For those of us who would prefer a lasting peace in the region and the quality of life to rise throughout the region, it's not even remotely just a way to stall or prevent honest negotiations. Rather, it's a way to help ensure honest negotiations and a far better outcome. At an even lower level, though, if one side won't even pretend to want co-existence, why would the other side just give them free rein to try to harm them? It would be a bit like Person A walking up to Person B and saying "I want to kill you. Now let me have a gun." As a general rule, Person B would have to be an utter idiot to just let Person A do as they pleased.

Great. I'll be waiting for Israel to declare that they recognize Palestine's "Right to Exist" so they can set good example for all the other states in the region. I'm sure it's going to happen any day now.


Hah!

Last edited by Jules Galen; 5th August 2016 at 02:41 AM.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 09:44 AM   #459
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,261
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Great. I'll be waiting for Israel to declare that they recognize Palestine's "Right to Exist" so they can set good example for all the other states in the region. I'm sure it's going to happen any day now.


Hah!
Palestine does not exist as a nation-state. Why should Israel recognize a state that doesn't exist? Do you demand that China recognize the state of Tibet?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 10:17 AM   #460
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,527
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Great. I'll be waiting for Israel to declare that they recognize Palestine's "Right to Exist" so they can set good example for all the other states in the region. I'm sure it's going to happen any day now.


Hah!
Which would happen at the successful resolution of a successful negotiation of a two state peace agreement.

What's the latest excuse offered by Abbas for not participating?
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
It might present a conflict with the aim of erasing her from the pages of time.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 11:07 AM   #461
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,100
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Great. I'll be waiting for Israel to declare that they recognize Palestine's "Right to Exist" so they can set good example for all the other states in the region. I'm sure it's going to happen any day now.


Hah!
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Which would happen at the successful resolution of a successful negotiation of a two state peace agreement.
Indeed, Mycroft, though one likely does not need to even go that far. Given the nature of what the "right to exist" actually is, it looks like Israel, with the potential exception of groups like the Likud Party and the like, actually has long since acknowledged that a Palestinian nation has the right to exist and such can be effectively be seen from the fact that they were willing to agree with multiple two state plans in the past. The actual issues for Israel tend to be more along the lines of the Person A and Person B scenario from before and the fallout from such and the specifics of that Palestinian state, rather than whether the Palestinians would have a legitimate claim. A Palestinian state that does not accept Israel's "right to exist," to give an obvious example, is not something that Israel has much reason to recognize in return.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 5th August 2016 at 11:18 AM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 01:33 PM   #462
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Palestine does not exist as a nation-state. Why should Israel recognize a state that doesn't exist? Do you demand that China recognize the state of Tibet?
My country doesn't sell weapons to China or give it money, so I don't really care. On the otherhand, my country does sell Israel weapons and gives them billions of dollars a year - so I pay attention.

However, you say Palestine doesn't exist. Like Israel, you deny Palestine's "Right to Exist". What next...gonna' try to wipe Palestine from the pages of history? I mean, Israel already has them penned up in mass Ghettos (looks like a case of slow genocide to me).

Last edited by Jules Galen; 5th August 2016 at 01:39 PM.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 02:13 PM   #463
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,007
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Israel already has them penned up in mass Ghettos (looks like a case of slow genocide to me).
The "genocide" in Gaza is moving so slowly it's actually going in reverse!

Gaza has an annual population growth rate of 2.91% (2014 est.), the 13th highest in the world [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
Meanwhile Arab citizens of Israel outside of Gaza and the West Bank make up 20% of the Israeli population (2013 estimates). Shouldn't your "genocide" be moving at least a little faster, before we call it even a "slow" genocide?

Last edited by theprestige; 5th August 2016 at 02:21 PM.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 02:19 PM   #464
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The "genocide" in Gaza is moving so slowly it's actually going in reverse!

Gaza has an annual population growth rate of 2.91% (2014 est.), the 13th highest in the world [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

Yeah...keep telling yourself that everything is going to be all right as Israel pens the Palestinians up in ever smaller areas while stealing their land and periodically bombing them when they get too "indignant". Just tell yourself a Faery Story that it's all going to end up ok.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 02:44 PM   #465
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,527
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Yeah...keep telling yourself that everything is going to be all right as Israel pens the Palestinians up in ever smaller areas while stealing their land and periodically bombing them when they get too "indignant". Just tell yourself a Faery Story that it's all going to end up ok.
You're the one pedling the fairy story. There is no "genocide" nor is there anyone being penned up in "ever smaller areas".

These peoples, both Palestinians and Israelis, need peace. You're not helping anyone, much less Palestinians, by promoting falsehoods. You're promoting continued conflict.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 03:21 PM   #466
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,007
Okay, not for nothing, but the people of Gaza are, in fact, penned up.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 03:36 PM   #467
Jules Galen
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, not for nothing, but the people of Gaza are, in fact, penned up.
Exactly. When we pen cattle up at the farm, it never goes well for any of them. Some get taken to the auction and slaughterhouse. Some get their horns and gonads cut off. The lucky ones only get a huge syringe rammed up their keesters and injected full of de-wormer and antibiotics (so they can grow faster and then be shipped off to the slaughterhouse).

So...when people pen up other people, I figure it's pretty much not a show of goodwill. I mean....ask the American Indians.
Jules Galen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 03:36 PM   #468
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,377
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, not for nothing, but the people of Gaza are, in fact, penned up.
In pens?
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 03:47 PM   #469
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 35,007
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Exactly. When we pen cattle up at the farm, it never goes well for any of them. Some get taken to the auction and slaughterhouse. Some get their horns and gonads cut off. The lucky ones only get a huge syringe rammed up their keesters and injected full of de-wormer and antibiotics (so they can grow faster and then be shipped off to the slaughterhouse).

So...when people pen up other people, I figure it's pretty much not a show of goodwill. I mean....ask the American Indians.
Or just ask the Gazans. Goodwill? No. Genocide? Also no.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 04:08 PM   #470
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,261
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
So...when people pen up other people, I figure it's pretty much not a show of goodwill. I mean....ask the American Indians.
Why aren't you angry at Egypt?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 04:37 PM   #471
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,527
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, not for nothing, but the people of Gaza are, in fact, penned up.
They are not penned up. Not being allowed into Israel is not the same as being penned up. If they want greater access to Israel or Egypt, they should ask their leaders to improve relations with both these nations.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2016, 05:38 PM   #472
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,527
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
So I dismiss your claim of someone lying, which you asserted without evidence.

Mmm..I do believe I claimed it was "false", and I base that claim on lack of evidence of it being true.

However clever you think you are, this sophistry doesn't change the burden of proof.



Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Whataboutism

Do anarchists get special training is whataboutism? It seems like a very common tactic among them.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The thing that you can't seem to grasp is that it's equally irrational and bigoted to claim without proof that the allegations are false or the journalist to be lying...
What if I claimed you to be a child molester?

You seem to like kids, you've been seen with them, and you haven't been supervised 100% of the time. You've also been seen buying candy, could that be to lure them in? You're known to like video games which put you into contact with minors...can you be trusted not to exploit them for sex? How do we know you haven't already? I have no evidence, but we must think of the children. The only way to be sure they're safe from you is to assume you are and keep you away from them. Maybe get you treatment.

Suppose then you went to a judge to sue me for defamation, and the judge asked you, "What evidence do you have he's lying? Can you prove you're not a child molester?"

This is why the burden of proof is on the claimant.

Do you believe in Bigfoot? Fine, what's your evidence? No, I don't need to prove there is no bigfoot, without evidence that's the default assumption.

Do you believe in ghosts? Fine, what's your evidence? No, I don't need to prove there are no ghosts, without evidence that's the default assumption.

Do you believe in the tooth fairy? No, I don't need to prove there is no tooth fairy, without evidence that's the default assumption.

Rational thinking is about logic and evidence. It's not about competing propagandas.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I find it bizarre for someone to argue that accusations of war crimes against Israel are a priori antisemitic based on mythical considerations. It amounts to giving a free pass to potential war crimes: "don't worry guys, we won't investigate or look into allegations, because muh mythical stuff". Also, your appeal to "well educated" nets you your first 10 points, congratulations.
There is that straw-man again. Nobody is claiming all allegations of war crimes are anti-Semitic. However someone who is inclined to make or believe such allegations without evidence, who doesn't seem to think evidence should even be necessary, particularly if that person seemed to really enjoy using Nazi terminology in relation to Israel and who openly wants its dissolution...you know that person might be suspect.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2016, 11:39 AM   #473
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Mmm..I do believe I claimed it was "false", and I base that claim on lack of evidence of it being true.
Let me guess, when someone claims it is "true" and bases that claim on lack of evidence of it being false, that argument would suddenly not be valid?

Quote:
However clever you think you are, this sophistry doesn't change the burden of proof.
Exactly, your affirmative claim, your burden of proof.

Quote:
Whataboutism

Do anarchists get special training is whataboutism? It seems like a very common tactic among them.
Are you there again with that pseudo-fallacy? Your "whataboutism" doesn't fit the requirements for a tu quoque nor of any other fallacy. It fits the requirements for Western supremacy though. "Not submitting to the declarations of the supreme West on what you can or can not discuss is a fallacy, a fallacy I tell you!" That's pretty much the validity of your "fallacy". Being butthurt whenever someone doesn't abide by your declarations of which topics they are allowed to discuss does not a fallacy make.

Besides, even if this "whataboutism" were valid, it's not applicable in this case. You've claimed that "Western justice systems" have a "foundational principle" of "innocent until proven guilty" and I've shown you an example of the West administering justice - no such "foundational principle" to be seen there at all.

Quote:
Do you believe in Bigfoot? Fine, what's your evidence? No, I don't need to prove there is no bigfoot, without evidence that's the default assumption.

Do you believe in ghosts? Fine, what's your evidence? No, I don't need to prove there are no ghosts, without evidence that's the default assumption.

Do you believe in the tooth fairy? No, I don't need to prove there is no tooth fairy, without evidence that's the default assumption.
Without evidence the default assumption is that we don't know whether Bigfoot/ghosts/the tooth fairy exists. Just like the default assumption is that we don't know whether the allegations are true or false, or what really happened during the events which are the subject of the allegations. You, however, claim to know - and you've been dancing around your burden of proof for that claim for several posts now. Aisha also claims to know, meeting her burden of proof with - of all things - mythical appeals.

Quote:
Rational thinking is about logic and evidence. It's not about competing propagandas.
You don't have a clue what rational thinking is.

Quote:
There is that straw-man again. Nobody is claiming all allegations of war crimes are anti-Semitic. However someone who is inclined to make or believe such allegations without evidence, who doesn't seem to think evidence should even be necessary, particularly if that person seemed to really enjoy using Nazi terminology in relation to Israel and who openly wants its dissolution...you know that person might be suspect.
Blah blah blah
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2016, 03:00 PM   #474
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
My country doesn't sell weapons to China or give it money, so I don't really care. On the otherhand, my country does sell Israel weapons and gives them billions of dollars a year - so I pay attention.

However, you say Palestine doesn't exist. Like Israel, you deny Palestine's "Right to Exist". What next...gonna' try to wipe Palestine from the pages of history? I mean, Israel already has them penned up in mass Ghettos (looks like a case of slow genocide to me).
It's not a genocide, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? Massing a population into a large open-air prison and then complaining about the gangs running amok inside is free justification for any repressive "security measures" a state could possibly want.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2016, 03:07 PM   #475
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,527
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Let me guess, when someone claims it is "true" and bases that claim on lack of evidence of it being false, that argument would suddenly not be valid?
I dunno. Try it out on my assertion that you molest children. It must be true because you can't provide evidence it's false.

Does that work for you? Seem fair?

If not, then maybe you need to rethink your understanding of logic and reason. When you do, consider the logic of proving a negative. Not a bad place to start is here:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...-Non-Existence

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Are you there again with that pseudo-fallacy? Your "whataboutism" doesn't fit the requirements for a tu quoque nor of any other fallacy.
Tu quoque and red herring.

Tu quoque: "Uh, you can't complain when I say without evidence Israel is guilty of stealing Palestinian organs because the US is bad when it uses drone strikes in Pakistan. (Presumably asserting that drone strikes are launched without evidence?)"

Red herring: "Let's bring up something controversial but irrelevent to the topic so we can muddy the waters and maybe talk about that instead of this topic where I'm getting butthurt."

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It fits the requirements for Western supremacy though. "Not submitting to the declarations of the supreme West on what you can or can not discuss is a fallacy, a fallacy I tell you!"
Nobody is saying you cant discuss whatever you want, but here in this context it's a red herring and a tu quoque fallacy. You're free to suddenly wander off topic, I'm free to point out when you're doing it. We're both free, get it?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's pretty much the validity of your "fallacy". Being butthurt whenever someone doesn't abide by your declarations of which topics they are allowed to discuss does not a fallacy make.
Being butthurt when someone points out your fallacious reasoning isn't the same as being told what topics you are or are not allowed to discuss.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Besides, even if this "whataboutism" were valid, it's not applicable in this case. You've claimed that "Western justice systems" have a "foundational principle" of "innocent until proven guilty" and I've shown you an example of the West administering justice - no such "foundational principle" to be seen there at all.
Which western justice system is responsible for drone strikes in Pakistan?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Without evidence the default assumption is that we don't know whether Bigfoot/ghosts/the tooth fairy exists. Just like the default assumption is that we don't know whether the allegations are true or false, or what really happened during the events which are the subject of the allegations. You, however, claim to know - and you've been dancing around your burden of proof for that claim for several posts now. Aisha also claims to know, meeting her burden of proof with - of all things - mythical appeals.
What's "mythical" again?

Are you really not sure if the tooth fairy exists or not? How about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You don't have a clue what rational thinking is.
Your ironic humor again.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Blah blah blah
I win again. Ten points for Gryffindor.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2016, 03:55 PM   #476
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If not, then maybe you need to rethink your understanding of logic and reason.
That was the best laugh in a while.

Quote:
Your ironic humor again.
Do you really think you're kidding anyone with that? Well, given the forum it's posted on, I guess you probably are. You're just using the words "logic", "reasoning", "rational" and "fallacy" while it's patently obvious that you don't have a clue what any of these words mean.

Quote:
I win again. Ten points for Gryffindor.
Blah blah blah
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2016, 04:01 PM   #477
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Mycroft always treats children in a non-molesting way.

Do I have evidence for that? No. Well, then it must be false.

This incoherent drivel is just brilliant.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 6th August 2016 at 04:04 PM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2016, 04:18 PM   #478
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,527
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Mycroft always treats children in a non-molesting way.

Do I have evidence for that? No. Well, then it must be false.

This incoherent drivel is just brilliant.
It's great that we've advanced your understanding enough that at least now you understand that evidence is required. That's a huge improvement over just a few days ago when you were arguing that we should give credence to bizarre allegations without evidence if... if they're about Israel I guess? Unless you meant that we should give credence to all allegations no matter how unlikely.

I'm not sure which way is giving you the "benefit of the doubt". One way suggests a prejudice, the other way suggests a greater stupidity. Maybe you should tell me.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2016, 04:32 PM   #479
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It's great that we've advanced your understanding enough that at least now you understand that evidence is required.
Blah blah blah

Fascists and "rational thinking" - the two never go together very well, as can be seen here yet again.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2016, 04:33 PM   #480
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,246
Explain why you are molesting children or refute the argument:

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Mycroft always treats children in a non-molesting way.

Do I have evidence for that? No. Well, then it must be false.
For reference, here is your previous argument:
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I claimed it was "false", and I base that claim on lack of evidence of it being true.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 6th August 2016 at 04:37 PM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:11 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.