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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 6th August 2016, 04:51 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Blah blah blah

Fascists and "rational thinking" - the two never go together very well, as can be seen here yet again.
Whoah! You just earned yourself 40 crack-pot points for #33 on this wonderful index you showed me a short time ago.
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Old 6th August 2016, 04:56 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Whoah! You just earned yourself 40 crack-pot points for #33 on this wonderful index you showed me a short time ago.
Not quite, but that would go completely over your head.
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Old 6th August 2016, 07:44 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not quite, but that would go completely over your head.
What, you don't think "fascist" is the equivalent to Nazi, brownshirt or stormtrooper? Or did you mean "fascist" to refer to yourself? Is calling someone a "fascist" less kooky than calling them a Nazi? What do you think the opinion would be of the man who compiled that list?

In any case, I believe if I just give you the answer, you'll dismiss it as "western supremacist" thinking and not receive any benefit, but you're a smart person who is capable of working things out if you're given enough of the tools. The history of rational thought goes back thousands of years. From Plato's "Euthydemus" to Aristotle, John Locke, John Stewart Mill, to our modern Charles Hamblin...Great men who worked out improvements in the very process of thinking so that we can discern between reason and unreason.

So while you're working it out, a few hints and road signs to nudge you in the correct direction.
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Old 6th August 2016, 07:56 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It's not a genocide, why kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? Massing a population into a large open-air prison and then complaining about the gangs running amok inside is free justification for any repressive "security measures" a state could possibly want.
Unspoken message: Palestinians have no agency, unlike other human beings.
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Old 7th August 2016, 12:33 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Utter Baloney.
No nation on earth formally recognizes another government's "right to exist" - because they'd be unwilling to accept all the baggage that comes with such a declaration. This "right to exist" is just a way to stall and prevent honest negotiations.
The PLO is not a nation, but Palestinian leaders have recognized several times the right to exist to Israel State. For example, see: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/08/wo...ed-israel.html

But the Israelis’ requirement is a trap. They demand the recognition of Israel as a Jewish State.

This implies:
(a) The abandon to the right to return of Palestinian expelled from their land.
(b) The recognition of the Arab Israelis as a second class citizens.
(c) The recognition of the “apartheid” laws, this is to say, all the Laws to create privileges to the Israelis (Return Law) or discrimination against the Arabs (land use or mixed mariages).
Etc.

No nation of Earth formally recognizes another government's "right to exist", that is to say, the right to exist as Nazional-Socialist, Communist or Democratic. The laws of a country are an internal matter, as the Palestinian leadership has said several times.

Furthermore, the successive Israeli Governments had never offered the return to the 1967 borders -this is to say a 25% less of the UN partition- in exchange. At this moment the complex structure of the illegal occupation of West Bank makes practically impossible the whole withdrawal of the occupied territories. The illegal appropriation of the Palestinian aquiferous by the Israeli State is another true obstacle from any kind of agreement.

Summary: the illegal constitution of the State of Israel and the logic of its aggressive colonization of Palestine makes extremely difficult any peaceful solution based on Justice without an international pressure, that not seems foreseeable in a short-medium term. This is the hard reality. All the rest are words, words, words…
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Old 7th August 2016, 02:34 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
The PLO is not a nation, but Palestinian leaders have recognized several times the right to exist to Israel State. For example, see: http://www.nytimes.com/1988/12/08/wo...ed-israel.html

But the Israelis’ requirement is a trap. They demand the recognition of Israel as a Jewish State.

This implies:
(a) The abandon to the right to return of Palestinian expelled from their land.
(b) The recognition of the Arab Israelis as a second class citizens.
(c) The recognition of the “apartheid” laws, this is to say, all the Laws to create privileges to the Israelis (Return Law) or discrimination against the Arabs (land use or mixed mariages).
Etc.

No nation of Earth formally recognizes another government's "right to exist", that is to say, the right to exist as Nazional-Socialist, Communist or Democratic. The laws of a country are an internal matter, as the Palestinian leadership has said several times.

Furthermore, the successive Israeli Governments had never offered the return to the 1967 borders -this is to say a 25% less of the UN partition- in exchange. At this moment the complex structure of the illegal occupation of West Bank makes practically impossible the whole withdrawal of the occupied territories. The illegal appropriation of the Palestinian aquiferous by the Israeli State is another true obstacle from any kind of agreement.

Summary: the illegal constitution of the State of Israel and the logic of its aggressive colonization of Palestine makes extremely difficult any peaceful solution based on Justice without an international pressure, that not seems foreseeable in a short-medium term. This is the hard reality. All the rest are words, words, words…
Any "solution based on justice" would turn into Syria with nukes. There are many people in Israel who remember how being a minority turned out for them. And if Israel's creation was illegal then what about the post-ww2 expulsions of Germans and Czechs to create the modern borders of Eastern Europe?
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Old 7th August 2016, 03:32 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Palestine does not exist as a nation-state.

Ahem..
Link: ww[dot]un[dot]org/press/en/2012/ga11317[dot]doc[dot]htm

Look here

Last edited by SashatheMagnificent; 7th August 2016 at 03:36 AM.
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Old 7th August 2016, 03:45 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Any "solution based on justice" would turn into Syria with nukes.
I have said “any peaceful solution based on justice”. I was not speaking of nuclear war.
In any way, political fiction is not my subject. “Syria” with nuclear weapons and the aftermaths of this is political fiction, purely speculative. We know Israel is the unique State with nuclear weapons in the zone.
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
There are many people in Israel who remember how being a minority turned out for them.
Being a victim of Human Rights violation does not authorize you to violate the Human Rights of other people.
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
And if Israel's creation was illegal then what about the post-ww2 expulsions of Germans and Czechs to create the modern borders of Eastern Europe?
We are not discussing now other alleged violations of the Humans Rights. We are discussing the violations of the Humans Rights in the context of the creation and the consolidation of the State of Israel.
There were many violations, but I consider these are the most important:

(a) A process of decolonization without any respect to the decolonized populations living in the territory. The British Empire and the (incomplete) UN had decided for the Palestinians without the Palestinians.
(b) The annexation of a land based on war in 1948 and 1967.
(c) A process of cleaning of the land and forced expulsion of population: “ethnic cleansing”.
(d) Some discriminatory laws in the new State of Israel.
(e) The colonization of the occupied territories.
(f) The subjection of the civil people of West Bank to a permanent system of violation of the Civil and the Economic Rights.

Because the State of Israel and its supporters (USA principally) have made impossible the subsistence of a Palestinian State I think the unique fair solution is a single State without discriminatory laws, that is to say, truly democratic. I don’t know how would be possible without violence –I am not saying terrorism- into the State of Israel or without an important pressure of the International powers. But I think these are not foreseeable circumstances in the present. So I am not very optimist about a fair solution for Palestine at a near future neither for the State of Israel at long-term.
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Old 7th August 2016, 05:57 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Because the State of Israel and its supporters (USA principally) have made impossible the subsistence of a Palestinian State I think the unique fair solution is a single State without discriminatory laws, that is to say, truly democratic.
It is a fantasy that this can work. You would not have a functioning democracy under these conditions, you would have mass violence. There is simply too much hatred and enmity. In order for a democratic society to survive, the citizenry must believe in it, must believe in the fundamental rights of their fellow citizens. And the Palestinians don't. They lack the basic cultural tolerance necessary for democracy to function.

Quote:
I don’t know how would be possible without violence
It is not possible without violence. You have not simply failed to discover how to do it without violence, no such option even exists.
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Old 7th August 2016, 05:59 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Ahem..
Link: ww[dot]un[dot]org/press/en/2012/ga11317[dot]doc[dot]htm

Look here
You have demonstrated the influence of the OIC. You have not demonstrated that Palestine exists as a nation state. Collective delusions are still delusions.
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Old 7th August 2016, 06:10 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I have said “any peaceful solution based on justice”. I was not speaking of nuclear war.
In any way, political fiction is not my subject. “Syria” with nuclear weapons and the aftermaths of this is political fiction, purely speculative. We know Israel is the unique State with nuclear weapons in the zone.
We both know that with Palestinians and Israelis' historical emnity, such a state would violently and brutally collapse like Syria.

Quote:
Being a victim of Human Rights violation does not authorize you to violate the Human Rights of other people.
A country's primary responsibility is to its citizens. What you are asking Israel to do is commit national suicide. What happens in "Greater Palestine" if they decide "We want every Zionist Cockroach out of the Holy Land!".

Quote:
We are not discussing now other alleged violations of the Humans Rights. We are discussing the violations of the Humans Rights in the context of the creation and the consolidation of the State of Israel.
There were many violations, but I consider these are the most important:

(a) A process of decolonization without any respect to the decolonized populations living in the territory. The British Empire and the (incomplete) UN had decided for the Palestinians without the Palestinians.
(b) The annexation of a land based on war in 1948 and 1967.
(c) A process of cleaning of the land and forced expulsion of population: “ethnic cleansing”.
(d) Some discriminatory laws in the new State of Israel.
(e) The colonization of the occupied territories.
(f) The subjection of the civil people of West Bank to a permanent system of violation of the Civil and the Economic Rights.
So what was Israel supposed to do in 1948 when every Arab Power, being led by a waffen SS recruiting Sergeant wanted every Jew put to the sword? Or 1967 when they came back for round 2?

Quote:
Because the State of Israel and its supporters (USA principally) have made impossible the subsistence of a Palestinian State I think the unique fair solution is a single State without discriminatory laws, that is to say, truly democratic. I don’t know how would be possible without violence –I am not saying terrorism- into the State of Israel or without an important pressure of the International powers. But I think these are not foreseeable circumstances in the present. So I am not very optimist about a fair solution for Palestine at a near future neither for the State of Israel at long-term.
The One State Solution has been tried before: Iraq, Syria, Bosnia-Herzegovinia. Why would it be different for Israel?
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Old 7th August 2016, 06:34 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What, you don't think "fascist" is the equivalent to Nazi, brownshirt or stormtrooper? Or did you mean "fascist" to refer to yourself? Is calling someone a "fascist" less kooky than calling them a Nazi? What do you think the opinion would be of the man who compiled that list?
I think his opinion would be that his list is not supposed to be used as an excuse for fascists who whine about being called fascists. Especially since you're not being called a fascist for making an argument against my statements - and I'm using the term "argument" here very generously - but because you're a self-declared racist and nationalist who supports an apartheid regime.

But why don't you just ask him?

Quote:
In any case, I believe if I just give you the answer, you'll dismiss it as "western supremacist" thinking and not receive any benefit, but you're a smart person who is capable of working things out if you're given enough of the tools. The history of rational thought goes back thousands of years. From Plato's "Euthydemus" to Aristotle, John Locke, John Stewart Mill, to our modern Charles Hamblin...Great men who worked out improvements in the very process of thinking so that we can discern between reason and unreason.

So while you're working it out, a few hints and road signs to nudge you in the correct direction.
Blah blah blah. Your professorial tone clashes strongly with how simplistic your errors are.

Answer post 480
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Old 7th August 2016, 06:35 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Ahem..
Link: ww[dot]un[dot]org/press/en/2012/ga11317[dot]doc[dot]htm

Look here
It's only the inferior people who recognize Palestine, not the superior people, so it doesn't count.
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Old 7th August 2016, 07:32 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You have demonstrated the influence of the OIC. You have not demonstrated that Palestine exists as a nation state. Collective delusions are still delusions.
I assumed the United Nations IS the authority who decided which state is a state and which not.
Apparently I was wrong, and it is Ziggurat, who is an authority higher than the UN.
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Old 7th August 2016, 07:33 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It's only the inferior people who recognize Palestine, not the superior people, so it doesn't count.
After his reply that his authority is higher of than the United Nations, I remembered of that person who thinks he is Napoleon

I do not know what else to say to this guy
Really,

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Old 7th August 2016, 08:38 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
... I think the unique fair solution is a single State without discriminatory laws, that is to say, truly democratic.
This is the idealist's position. We'd all like to be reasonable men and women and agree soberly on logical solutions. The question is, in a world that includes emotion and irrational belief, what is to be done?
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Old 7th August 2016, 10:28 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I assumed the United Nations IS the authority who decided which state is a state and which not.
Apparently I was wrong, and it is Ziggurat, who is an authority higher than the UN.
strawman positions and personalizing won't get you far here
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Old 7th August 2016, 11:47 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I was referring to the kids. An enduring solution will require cooperation from both sides.
This is of course true in any situation requiring an enduring solution. Cooperation is more the bridge than the wall.

In order for any enduring solution, cooperation has to be focused upon attaining that very thing.

In simplistic terms, it is always about the haves and the have nots. The haves believe that they earned whatever they have through hard work and the support of others invested in their agenda.

The have nots have only themselves to blame for their situation and lack of vision, tools,expertise, financial backing etc...

Resentment builds and the haves use whatever method deemed necessary in order to contain any related fallout.

Most, if not all method deemed necessary only adds to the resentment.

Thus 'the kids' have to find alternate ways, and the have kids need to use their resource in order to perpetuate bonds of trust which the have nots can respond to favorably and the agenda has to be tweaked in order to ensure the best possible outcome is achieved.

This is to say, the haves, who have what they have because of their hard work and commitment to a wholesome vision and with the financial support of other haves, need to extend that vision into the camp of their enemy and find ways in which to make their enemy their friend.

Like 'pay it forward' - invest in the enemy by giving them the tools they need to create the same kind of vision for their own - that they also can be part of the haves and no longer feel alienated because they have not.
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Old 7th August 2016, 11:56 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
But the Israelis’ requirement is a trap. They demand the recognition of Israel as a Jewish State.

This implies:
(a) The abandon to the right to return of Palestinian expelled from their land.
No. That’s a separate point of negotiations. It’s already been agreed between both parties that only a token number of Palestinians would actually return, others can be compensated monetarily or by being granted comparable land in the territories that will become “Palestine”.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
(b) The recognition of the Arab Israelis as a second class citizens.
No, that doesn’t follow.

Take Syria, for example. Officially “The Syrian Arab Republic”. Calling themselves an “Arab Republic” doesn’t mean that its non-Arab citizens, which includes Circassians, Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, Mandeans and others, are inherently second class citizens. In practice they’ve made their Alawite population their favored population, but they didn’t name themselves “The Syrian Alawite Republic”.

That they’re not much of a republic either goes without saying.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
(c) The recognition of the “apartheid” laws, this is to say, all the Laws to create privileges to the Israelis (Return Law) or discrimination against the Arabs (land use or mixed mariages).
Etc.
Again, no.

Israel’s foundational documents from the Balfour Declaration, to Israel’s Declaration of Independence, to its basic law all speak of granting equal rights to all of it’s citizens regardless of race or religion.

It’s not true that Israel has any laws forbidding mixed marriages. Israel recognizes all marriages, including gay marriages. What Israel lacks is a civil marriage law that allows marriages not conducted by the religious authorities in Israel.

Right now marriages in Israel are handled by the recognized religious authorities for Jews, Muslims and Christians. Any “discrimination” that happens is equally discriminatory to all it’s citizens who want to have non-religious or mixed religious marriages.

Should this be fixed? Absolutely, but fixing it has nothing to do with whether “Palestine” recognizes Israel as a Jewish state or not, but everything to do with when the Israeli electorate decides to push for it hard enough to get it done.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
No nation of Earth formally recognizes another government's "right to exist", that is to say, the right to exist as Nazional-Socialist, Communist or Democratic. The laws of a country are an internal matter, as the Palestinian leadership has said several times.
Who cares?

What Israel is looking for here is assurance that once a two-state solution is finalized that will be the end of the conflict. That the PLO and the PNA won’t redraft their charters and repeated statements repudiating this principle are seen (understandably in my opinion) as indications of insincerity. If the object is peace, why be so stubborn on something that’s purely symbolic? Say it the way they need to hear it and move on.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Furthermore, the successive Israeli Governments had never offered the return to the 1967 borders -this is to say a 25% less of the UN partition- in exchange. At this moment the complex structure of the illegal occupation of West Bank makes practically impossible the whole withdrawal of the occupied territories. The illegal appropriation of the Palestinian aquiferous by the Israeli State is another true obstacle from any kind of agreement.
I don’t understand how and why it’s assumed Israel should return to the 1967 borders. Chain of custody on the West Bank went from the Ottoman Empire, British Empire, illegal occupation by Jordan, to Israel. How much of it should become part of a future state of “Palestine” is what should be negotiated between Israel and the PNA.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Summary: the illegal constitution of the State of Israel and the logic of its aggressive colonization of Palestine makes extremely difficult any peaceful solution based on Justice without an international pressure, that not seems foreseeable in a short-medium term. This is the hard reality. All the rest are words, words, words…
For there to be a solution based on “justice” you have to consider what is justice for both sides. As long as you only consider justice for one side, it will always be a stumbling block. At some point you need to decide that peace is important in and of itself, and make it happen.
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Old 7th August 2016, 12:59 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
In order for any enduring solution, cooperation has to be focused upon attaining that very thing.
And I emphasize cooperation from both sides. Fixating only on what Israel can do is ignoring half the issue and you can’t solve these issues without looking at the other half.

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
In simplistic terms, it is always about the haves and the have nots. The haves believe that they earned whatever they have through hard work and the support of others invested in their agenda.
With respect, I disagree. I think the intransigence of the Palestinian government is based on more than just jealousy.

Originally Posted by Navigator View Post
Thus 'the kids' have to find alternate ways, and the have kids need to use their resource in order to perpetuate bonds of trust which the have nots can respond to favorably and the agenda has to be tweaked in order to ensure the best possible outcome is achieved.
That was the thinking back in the 1990’s. A lot of investment was put into building up the Palestinian economy and improving their standards of living, but that approach failed with the failure of the peace talks at Camp David in 2000 and the beginning of the second intifada.
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Old 7th August 2016, 01:03 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I assumed the United Nations IS the authority who decided which state is a state and which not.
Apparently I was wrong, and it is Ziggurat, who is an authority higher than the UN.
The United Nations really has very little authority. It was designed that way on purpose, after all who would join it if they thought it's authority would be greater than their own?

It's a platform for nations to talk with each other and to coordinate certain humanitarian and peacekeeping endeavors, but it's not a legislative body, it has no ability to make law or set borders.
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Old 7th August 2016, 01:24 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
In any way, political fiction is not my subject. “Syria” with nuclear weapons and the aftermaths of this is political fiction, purely speculative. We know Israel is the unique State with nuclear weapons in the zone.
Right. What he was saying is if you throw these people together after one set of these people has been propagandized to hate the other set for generations, you create a recipe for a civil war the likes of which have been seen in places like Rwanda or Darfur. That there are also nuclear weapons in the area makes that even more of a bad idea in addition to the potential for genocidal violence between these two peoples.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Being a victim of Human Rights violation does not authorize you to violate the Human Rights of other people.
No, but it neither does it mean you have to disregard your own needs and rights when dealing with other peoples.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
…The British Empire and the (incomplete) UN had decided for the Palestinians without the Palestinians.
Actually, the partition plan from the UN was exactly an attempt to please both peoples. The previous idea was a single state of “Palestine” containing both populations.

Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
… I think the unique fair solution is a single State without discriminatory laws, that is to say, truly democratic. I don’t know how would be possible without violence –…
For it to be possible without violence there would need to be a lot of work done on to promote understanding and forgiveness between these two peoples. Right now the “peace activists” are doing just the opposite.
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Old 7th August 2016, 01:43 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The United Nations really has very little authority.
The general assembly of the UN represents the will and the opinion of all the countries of planet Earth, I can not think of any other place where the will of the countries of planet Earth is represented in a more authoritative way.
So the UN has a very high authority, if not just a moral one
The fact that you so quickly ignore a clear vote at the UN speaks volumes about *your* level of morality and respect for the opinion of other countries, just as you do not like the outcome of the vote
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Old 7th August 2016, 01:47 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
strawman positions and personalizing won't get you far here

Do not know why you assume that I want to get any far in this forum, where it seems a good part of the people are OK with zionist oppression of the palestinians.
Just curious to see where you see the strawman position, if I can hear this please
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Old 7th August 2016, 01:53 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
This is the idealist's position. We'd all like to be reasonable men and women and agree soberly on logical solutions. The question is, in a world that includes emotion and irrational belief, what is to be done?
I admit I have stolen your wallet, in an idealistic world I admit I should return it to you but the question is, in a world that includes emotion and irrational belief, what is to be done?


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
No, but it neither does it mean you have to disregard your own needs and rights when dealing with other peoples.
The Arab States have already offered a full peace plan in 2002 and Israel refused.
Google "Arab peace plan 2002".
I am surprised you do not know about this.
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Old 7th August 2016, 02:10 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What Israel is looking for here is assurance that once a two-state solution is finalized that will be the end of the conflict.
This is a lie.

In return the Arab states will do the following: (a) Consider the Arab–Israeli conflict over, sign a peace agreement with Israel, and achieve peace for all states in the region; (b) Establish normal relations with Israel within the framework of this comprehensive peace
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative#cite_note-Time-1

If Israel were serious about peace they would have accepted this long time ago, in 2002
If I remember well
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Old 7th August 2016, 02:21 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I admit I have stolen your wallet, in an idealistic world I admit I should return it to you but the question is, in a world that includes emotion and irrational belief, what is to be done?
Nation states are not the same thing as normal people. This is "household economics applied to countries" level of not even wrong.
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Old 7th August 2016, 02:45 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Nation states are not the same thing as normal people. This is "household economics applied to countries" level of not even wrong.
This means stealing is bad if between people but OK if between countries?
Did you support then Saddam` s aggression of Kuwait in the 80s?
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Old 7th August 2016, 02:47 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
This means stealing is bad if between people but OK if between countries?
Did you support then Saddam` s aggression of Kuwait in the 80s?
That's a different matter entirely. That was outright conquest by a fascist dictator who emulated Stalin and Hitler who had a predilection for genocide. Is/Pal OTOH is about an unresolved conflict spanning decades where there were no real final borders. It's less stealing a wallet and more an extremely messy dispute over inheritances, like the Spanish War of Succession or the Thirty Years War.

So, with both countries irreconcilably opposed, what is the best possible solution for
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Old 7th August 2016, 02:57 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I assumed the United Nations IS the authority who decided which state is a state and which not.
The UN General Assembly's authority extends no further than the General Assembly.

Quote:
Apparently I was wrong, and it is Ziggurat, who is an authority higher than the UN.
It isn't a matter of authority (I claim note), it's a matter of recognizing reality (a task which requires no authority at all). King Canute could no more command the tides than the UN General Assembly can turn the mess that is the PA into an actual state by a mere vote of recognition.
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Old 7th August 2016, 03:15 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I assumed the United Nations IS the authority who decided which state is a state and which not.
Apparently I was wrong, and it is Ziggurat, who is an authority higher than the UN.
Ziggurat is not claiming to be a greater authority than the UN. He is pointing out, as I have done,the limits of UN authority.

Whatever you think it's "moral authority" is, its actual authority (otherwise known as "authority") is very limited.

You should put this straw-man to rest.

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Old 7th August 2016, 03:19 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The general assembly of the UN represents the will and the opinion of all the countries of planet Earth
No it doesn't. It represents the executive branches of governments which are included as voting members in the General Assembly. Which isn't all of them.

Quote:
So the UN has a very high authority, if not just a moral one
There's nothing moral about the UN General Assembly. It's largely a dictator's club.

Quote:
The fact that you so quickly ignore a clear vote at the UN speaks volumes about *your* level of morality and respect for the opinion of other countries, just as you do not like the outcome of the vote
You just gave away the game: the vote reflects opinion, not fact. This is the way they want things to be. But it is not the way things actually are.
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Old 7th August 2016, 03:23 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
I admit I have stolen your wallet, in an idealistic world I admit I should return it to you but the question is, in a world that includes emotion and irrational belief, what is to be done?
In this metaphor, part of the emotional and irrational belief is the belief that a wallet was stolen.

Even if it were, or if the belief were so persistent that it didn't matter, it would still be irrational to insist that your grandchildren and great grandchildren sacrifice their lives to recover the wallet rather than just get another wallet.


Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
The Arab States have already offered a full peace plan in 2002 and Israel refused.
Google "Arab peace plan 2002".
I am surprised you do not know about this.
I am perfectly aware of the Saudi plan.

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Old 7th August 2016, 04:33 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
That's a different matter entirely. That was outright conquest by a fascist dictator who emulated Stalin and Hitler who had a predilection for genocide.
Let alone the fact that the state of Israel has been accused of genocide as well, how is who you want to emulate for your war crimes of any relevance to the present discussion?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It isn't a matter of authority (I claim note), it's a matter of recognizing reality (a task which requires no authority at all). King Canute could no more command the tides than the UN General Assembly can turn the mess that is the PA into an actual state by a mere vote of recognition.
You are comparing King Canute to the countries of Brazil, Russia, China, all of them recognize the Palestinian State?
And which "reality" are you talking about?
Yours or the one almost all the rest of the world seems to live in?

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Ziggurat is not claiming to be a greater authority than the UN. He is pointing out, as I have done,the limits of UN authority.

Whatever you think it's "moral authority" is, its actual authority (otherwise known as "authority") is very limited.

You should put this straw-man to rest.

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Your point is that morality has nothing to do with authority or that the opinion of the governments on Earth must be ignored as Mr. Mycroft and Mr. Ziggurat have a different opinion?
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Old 7th August 2016, 04:41 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No it doesn't. It represents the executive branches of governments which are included as voting members in the General Assembly. Which isn't all of them.
I suspect 99% of the countries of this planet are represented in the General Assembly
So I do not get what your point is


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There's nothing moral about the UN General Assembly. It's largely a dictator's club.
?
Brazil a dictatorship?
India a dictatorship?
Russia a dictatorship?
Argentina a dictatorship?
What did you smoke?
Must be good


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You just gave away the game: the vote reflects opinion, not fact. This is the way they want things to be. But it is not the way things actually are.
And who has most moral authority to decide the way things are?
The AIPAC-supported government of the US?
The General Assembly?
Or you?
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Old 7th August 2016, 04:47 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
In this metaphor, part of the emotional and irrational belief is the belief that a wallet was stolen.
Well, Israel has been taking land outside their 1967 borders since well, 1967, so the belief is quite substantiated by hard core facts.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Even if it were, or if the belief were so persistent that it didn't matter, it would still be irrational to insist that your grandchildren and great grandchildren sacrifice their lives to recover the wallet rather than just get another wallet.
If I remember well, the last settlements have been built only a few months ago.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I am perfectly aware of the Saudi plan.

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My bad.
I was thinking you were supporting atrocities only due to ignorance
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Old 7th August 2016, 04:53 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Let alone the fact that the state of Israel has been accused of genocide as well, how is who you want to emulate for your war crimes of any relevance to the present discussion?
If the ones doing the accusing are kooks who are unclear of the definition of "genocide" then it is of little significance.

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Your point is that morality has nothing to do with authority or that the opinion of the governments on Earth must be ignored as Mr. Mycroft and Mr. Ziggurat have a different opinion?
Rephrasing what I said into something I didn't say is just another way of creating a straw-man.

Learn the difference between what should be and what is and your understanding will improve greatly.
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Old 7th August 2016, 04:57 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
Brazil a dictatorship?
India a dictatorship?
Russia a dictatorship?
Argentina a dictatorship?
What did you smoke?
Must be good
This is called "cherry picking".

Originally Posted by SashatheMagnificent View Post
And who has most moral authority to decide the way things are?
The AIPAC-supported government of the US?
The General Assembly?
Or you?
Moral authority still doesn't translate to legal authority.
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Old 7th August 2016, 05:07 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
This is called "cherry picking".
Here are other cherries..
Cuba, Indonesia, Czech, Uruguay, Nigeria, Egypt, ..
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestin e
I can not write all of them as the list of cherries is very very long
Most of them are not dictatorships at all.
And what about Poland, the Phillippines
The bag of cherries is very heavy, can not lift such heavy bag

Is Poland a dictactorship?
What about the Philippines?
Ecuador?

Oh, I forgot the sultanate of Sweden

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Moral authority still doesn't translate to legal authority.
Your point is moral authority has no or little value since you can not enforce it?
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Old 7th August 2016, 05:10 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If the ones doing the accusing are kooks who are unclear of the definition of "genocide" then it is of little significance. .
You should not accuse Ziggurat of being "kook".
It is against the rules, I assume

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Rephrasing what I said into something I didn't say is just another way of creating a straw-man.

Learn the difference between what should be and what is and your understanding will improve greatly.
But the vote for the recognition of the State of Palestine HAS actually happened.
It SHOULD have happened
and it DID happen

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