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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 18th May 2019, 02:10 AM   #1641
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
But this book has been criticized:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial/).
A few years ago, somebody asked (on Quora):

(https://www.quora.com/When-Jews-move...ts-steal-land/)
Alon Shalev replied:
Selectively quoting from that page rather undermines your argument, old chap. I suggest you read the whole thing.

Norman Finkelstein? Noam Chomsky? Don't make me laugh.
Of course the book was criticised. It uncovered a very uncomfortable truth which the apologists for the Muslim world very much wanted to be concealed.

It is extremely well supported by evidence. I suggest you read it, rather than relying on Wikipedia reviews.
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Old 18th May 2019, 02:15 AM   #1642
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How many Jews have immigrated to lands controlled by Hamas?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is what people have been claiming the settlements are. Just normal immigration not some kind of taking land or invasion. So the settlements would have to be under the control of the palestinians as they are on their land.
How many Israeli settlements are there in lands controlled by Hamas?

Just in case ponderingturtle is still in hiding, the answer is none.
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Old 20th May 2019, 05:02 AM   #1643
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How many Israeli settlements are there in lands controlled by Hamas?

Just in case ponderingturtle is still in hiding, the answer is none.
Good so we can admit that those are illegal conquest of Palestinian territory. And the people who seem to think of them as immigration are just entirely deluded.

Of course this illegal conquest is official Israeli policy see their choice in government and Bibi. Really we can just take statements from the likud party to represent what all Israel believes.
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Old 20th May 2019, 08:10 AM   #1644
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How many Jews have immigrated to lands controlled by Hamas?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is what people have been claiming the settlements are. Just normal immigration not some kind of taking land or invasion. So the settlements would have to be under the control of the palestinians as they are on their land.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
How many Israeli settlements are there in lands controlled by Hamas?

Just in case ponderingturtle is still in hiding, the answer is none.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Good so we can admit that those are illegal conquest of Palestinian territory. And the people who seem to think of them as immigration are just entirely deluded.

Of course this illegal conquest is official Israeli policy see their choice in government and Bibi. Really we can just take statements from the likud party to represent what all Israel believes.
No, ponderingturtle, we can do nothing of the sort.
Firstly, you can admit that there are no Israeli settlements in, and no Israeli immigration to, lands controlled by Hamas.
Then you can explain how not living in a place can possibly count as "illegal conquest" of that place.
Finally, you can explain how the statements from one political party can be taken to represent the entirety of the beliefs of that country, and why that logic would not also apply to Gaza. Hamas is on record, after all, in calling for the destruction of Israel and the driving of the Jews into the sea, and they were voted in to power as well.
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Old 20th May 2019, 09:00 AM   #1645
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, ponderingturtle, we can do nothing of the sort.
Firstly, you can admit that there are no Israeli settlements in, and no Israeli immigration to, lands controlled by Hamas.
Then you can explain how not living in a place can possibly count as "illegal conquest" of that place.
Now you are denying the existence of Israeli settlements in occupied territory.

That is a new move.
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Old 20th May 2019, 10:18 AM   #1646
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now you are denying the existence of Israeli settlements in occupied territory.

That is a new move.
Am I? Where? In which post?

Actually, no, don't bother answering: we all know that's not true.
You claimed there were Israeli settlements in Gaza (lands controlled by Hamas). There are not.
There is no part of that statement that denies the existence of settlements elsewhere.
You knew that, of course.
Did you teach The Big Dog, or did he learn from you?
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Old 20th May 2019, 11:30 AM   #1647
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Am I? Where? In which post?

Actually, no, don't bother answering: we all know that's not true.
You claimed there were Israeli settlements in Gaza (lands controlled by Hamas). There are not.
There is no part of that statement that denies the existence of settlements elsewhere.
You knew that, of course.
Did you teach The Big Dog, or did he learn from you?
Sorry there were plenty of such "immigrants" until the Israeli government decided that holding such lands was strategically nonviable and removed the settlers in 2005. And they focus their efforts of conquest in other Palestinian areas.

Now they are not allowed to emigrate to that area of Palestine. Of course the actions of Hamas work for taring all Palestinians not just in Gaza. So clearly as the true voice of Israel Bibi is the true spokesman for all Israelis.
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Old 20th May 2019, 12:59 PM   #1648
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now you are denying the existence of Israeli settlements in occupied territory.

That is a new move.
You seem to be unaware of several facts:
1. Jews who live in Israel are 'settlers' and have been called that since the 1890's.
There is a good book about that --- "The Settlers" by Myer Levin (sbn 671-21154-4) Simon & Shuster Pub. NY 1972.

2. Jewish presence in these lands has existed for thousands of years and was recognized as legitimate in the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations in 1922, which provided for the establishment of a Jewish state in the Jewish people's ancient homeland.

https://embassies.gov.il/abuja/About...s-and-Law.aspx

3. The way forward is for an agreed secure and peaceful resolution which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Arabs to this ancient land.
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Old 21st May 2019, 02:13 AM   #1649
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
You seem to be unaware of several facts:
1. Jews who live in Israel are 'settlers' and have been called that since the 1890's.
There is a good book about that --- "The Settlers" by Myer Levin (sbn 671-21154-4) Simon & Shuster Pub. NY 1972.

2. Jewish presence in these lands has existed for thousands of years and was recognized as legitimate in the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations in 1922, which provided for the establishment of a Jewish state in the Jewish people's ancient homeland.

https://embassies.gov.il/abuja/About...s-and-Law.aspx

3. The way forward is for an agreed secure and peaceful resolution which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Arabs to this ancient land.
That is a very informative link. Thanks for posting it.
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Old 21st May 2019, 03:59 AM   #1650
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
You seem to be unaware of several facts:
1. Jews who live in Israel are 'settlers' and have been called that since the 1890's.
There is a good book about that --- "The Settlers" by Myer Levin (sbn 671-21154-4) Simon & Shuster Pub. NY 1972.

2. Jewish presence in these lands has existed for thousands of years and was recognized as legitimate in the Mandate for Palestine adopted by the League of Nations in 1922, which provided for the establishment of a Jewish state in the Jewish people's ancient homeland.

https://embassies.gov.il/abuja/About...s-and-Law.aspx

3. The way forward is for an agreed secure and peaceful resolution which will give legitimate expression to the connection of both Jews and Arabs to this ancient land.
Then they should just conquer it like they did last time, kill all the men, women and boys and keep the girls as rape slaves. Stop pretending that the palestinians matter and just impose the proper jewish state.

The clear only peaceful solution you can see with that is the cleansing of palestinians from the area and a single israeli jewish state. That is totally at odds with the two state solution, which was my main point all along, the two state solution is totally unworkable and so a single state solution needs to be worked out.
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Old 21st May 2019, 05:48 AM   #1651
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then they should just conquer it like they did last time, kill all the men, women and boys and keep the girls as rape slaves. Stop pretending that the palestinians matter and just impose the proper Jewish state.
Beautiful strawman. You DO realize this Forum is a place where such things are normally rejected and those who promote strawmen are ridiculed?

"Stop pretending that the palestinians matter..." --- Israelis are not pretending about that. There are MANY Israelis who want to see Palestinians succeed in having good lives, in having their own democratic leadership, in working alongside us towards a peaceful cooperation.

This story is an example of Israeli-Palestinian cooperation ---
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/He...itation-590228



Quote:
The clear only peaceful solution you can see with that is the cleansing of palestinians from the area and a single israeli jewish state. That is totally at odds with the two state solution, which was my main point all along, the two state solution is totally unworkable and so a single state solution needs to be worked out.
The main problem is that the term "Two-State Solution" means one thing to the Palestinians and another to the Israelis.
The Palestinians think it means "We can continue as enemies of Israel, using the lands we gain as a base to continue efforts to dismantle Israel"

If you have not already done so, I urge you to read this proposal --
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/annou...state-solution

It contains all the elements required for a Palestine State, and provides a fair and equitable solution.
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Old 21st May 2019, 07:21 AM   #1652
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
Beautiful strawman. You DO realize this Forum is a place where such things are normally rejected and those who promote strawmen are ridiculed?

"Stop pretending that the palestinians matter..." --- Israelis are not pretending about that. There are MANY Israelis who want to see Palestinians succeed in having good lives, in having their own democratic leadership, in working alongside us towards a peaceful cooperation.
Like they matter, the leadership by Bibi is never going to allow that to happen so these mythical moderates matter just as much as palestinian ones when presented with the rule of Hamas. Only ruling parties matter that has been the rule so far in this discussion so why change it now?

Quote:
The main problem is that the term "Two-State Solution" means one thing to the Palestinians and another to the Israelis.
The Palestinians think it means "We can continue as enemies of Israel, using the lands we gain as a base to continue efforts to dismantle Israel"

If you have not already done so, I urge you to read this proposal --
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/annou...state-solution

It contains all the elements required for a Palestine State, and provides a fair and equitable solution.
Yea and there is no way anyone is going to support that, you have to work with what the chosen leaderships goals are so it needs to be palatable to Bibi. Anything that doesn't let settlements permanently continue to expand into palestinian territory is never going to get past israel. That is the benefit of those settlements, they will never be regarded as illegal even if by basic international law they are.

You need to give up the fairytales and work with something that is possible in the real world.
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:17 AM   #1653
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then they should just conquer it like they did last time, kill all the men, women and boys and keep the girls as rape slaves.
Is that really what they did last time? Which 'last time' was this? Because if what you say here is true, then there cannot be any Palestinian refugees.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post

The clear only peaceful solution you can see with that is the cleansing of palestinians from the area and a single israeli jewish state. That is totally at odds with the two state solution, which was my main point all along, the two state solution is totally unworkable and so a single state solution needs to be worked out.
This is obviously not a peaceful solution, it is not what the majority of Israelis want, it is not what anyone except you has mentioned, and it is not a real world solution.
Well done.
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Old 21st May 2019, 08:48 AM   #1654
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Is that really what they did last time? Which 'last time' was this? Because if what you say here is true, then there cannot be any Palestinian refugees.
Exodus the first time the conquered the region.

Quote:
This is obviously not a peaceful solution, it is not what the majority of Israelis want, it is not what anyone except you has mentioned, and it is not a real world solution.
Well done.
Then come up with something that the Likud party representing the majority of what Israelis want will accept that is a peaceful solution. That is the leading party, and the one in charge that is who you need to back your solution.

Until a party that would accept the proposed solutions is elected in Israel there is no way they can even be approached. So right now we need to deal with the Likud party and their solutions to the palestinian problem.
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Old 21st May 2019, 09:50 AM   #1655
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The Likud certainly doesn't represent the majority of Israelis. In point of fact, the Likud received exactly the same number of mandates as Blue/White (35) so your stated position is totally unsupported by evidence.

Furthermore, the Palestinian Problem is ALSO requiring the Palestinians to help solve, which their Leaders refuse to do.

Their entire demand for 1967 Borders (1949 Lines actually) and return of refugees has no rhyme nor reason in presenting a solution for the Jews of Israel.

Gaza/N.Sinai is a legitimate path to Palestine Statehood and will alleviate the concerns of Egypr, Jordan and Israel together.

Which is a good goal to pursue.
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Old 21st May 2019, 10:50 AM   #1656
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
The Likud certainly doesn't represent the majority of Israelis. In point of fact, the Likud received exactly the same number of mandates as Blue/White (35) so your stated position is totally unsupported by evidence.

Furthermore, the Palestinian Problem is ALSO requiring the Palestinians to help solve, which their Leaders refuse to do.

Their entire demand for 1967 Borders (1949 Lines actually) and return of refugees has no rhyme nor reason in presenting a solution for the Jews of Israel.

Gaza/N.Sinai is a legitimate path to Palestine Statehood and will alleviate the concerns of Egypr, Jordan and Israel together.

Which is a good goal to pursue.
Yes remember it is always the responsibility of the occupied not the occupier to build governments and resolve all problems of occupation. And would that projected solution" be acceptable to the Blue/white party?

And until the palestinians accept and enjoy israel being their they will of course lose more and more land as is proper. As all the best leaders say "the beatings will continue until morale improves"
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Old 21st May 2019, 11:25 AM   #1657
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It seems to me that ponderingturtle isn't very much interested in new ways of looking at this conflict and/or unique designs to unravel the mess.

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...336349,00.html

I am pretty much convinced he is just another naysayer who remains a part of the problem and not willing to work towards a solution.

Let's keep one thing in mind.
Palestinians & Israelis cooperate on a wide range of matters daily, and are linked in a variety of ways, including trade, banking, transportation, air rights, water distribution, taxation, medical treatments, work opportunities, electromagnetic spectrum, electricity, fuel and much more.

Gaza/N. Sinai is quite realistic, and is being formulated by the echelons in
Washington DC, Riyadh, Cairo, Amman, Jerusalem etc.

The idea ponderingturtle is promoting here that it's NOT supported simply has no basis.

Last edited by webfusion; 21st May 2019 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 21st May 2019, 11:30 AM   #1658
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Originally Posted by webfusion View Post
It seems to me that ponderingturtle isn't very much interested in new ways of looking at this conflict and/or unique designs to unravel the mess.

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...336349,00.html

I am pretty much convinced he is just another naysayer who remains a part of the problem and not willing to work towards a solution.

Let's keep one thing in mind.
Palestinians & Israelis cooperate on a wide range of matters daily, and are linked in a variety of ways, including trade, banking, transportation, air rights, water distribution, taxation, medical treatments, work opportunities, electromagnetic spectrum, electricity, fuel and much more.

Gaza/N. Sinai is quite realistic, and is being formulated by the echelons in
Washington DC, Riyadh, Cairo, Amman, Jerusalem etc.

The idea ponderingturtle is promoting here that it's NOT supported simply has no basis.
Sure aside from the actual support of the elected leadership. This is about as realistic as brexit turning out well. Walls, bombings and more settlements are all that we will live to see. That is what has the political will behind it and what will continue.
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Old 21st May 2019, 12:31 PM   #1659
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For one thing, as of today, there isn't any elected leadership in Israel. There's a caretaker gov't. and nothing more than that exists.

Secondly, Israelis will indeed continue to live on lands that have been part of Judaism's core for millenia, including Hebron and Jerusalem.

Thirdly, walls are there to PREVENT infiltration of homicide bombers. The barrier is effective.

As for Gaza/N.Sinai, the Egyptian leader is going to have to decide on that, as it requires ceding land in N. Sinai that is currently a base for ISIL terrorists.

I personally think you have a very limited imagination about what is possible.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 02:14 AM   #1660
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exodus the first time the conquered the region.
Are you seriously quoting the Bible as a source of accurate historical information?


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then come up with something that the Likud party representing the majority of what Israelis want will accept that is a peaceful solution. That is the leading party, and the one in charge that is who you need to back your solution.

Until a party that would accept the proposed solutions is elected in Israel there is no way they can even be approached. So right now we need to deal with the Likud party and their solutions to the palestinian problem.
As you now know, only a minority of Israelis voted for Likud.
You are also probably unaware that Hamas received almost 45% of the vote in the election that brought it to power.
This means that a greater percentage of Palestinians oppose a peaceful solution and co-existence than Israelis do, even assuming that Likud is dedicated to the extinction of the Palestinians (which is highly debatable at best).
Your argument would be better suited if turned against the Palestinian Arabs.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:18 AM   #1661
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Meanwhile, Israel is requesting the elimination of UNRWA. That agency promotes hatred and incites.

Danny Danon speaks about it here ---
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/263549
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:05 PM   #1662
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
As you now know, only a minority of Israelis voted for Likud.
You are also probably unaware that Hamas received almost 45% of the vote in the election that brought it to power.
Also a minority, so clearly just because they are in power winning a minority of the vote means they have no moral responsibility for the situation like Likud.
Quote:
This means that a greater percentage of Palestinians oppose a peaceful solution and co-existence than Israelis do, even assuming that Likud is dedicated to the extinction of the Palestinians (which is highly debatable at best).
Your argument would be better suited if turned against the Palestinian Arabs.
Not necessarily, there are of course the more extreme parties that get Likud its ruling coalition for example. And so what? This would be like arguing that the US has no responsibility for the creation of ISIS and the civil wars in Iraq because clearly it is all their own fault. Clearly the occupying force has no different moral obligations than the occupied.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 01:09 PM   #1663
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The most realistic peace plan will be to wait for the region to become uninhabitable due to global warming really.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:38 PM   #1664
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The most realistic peace plan will be to wait for the region to become uninhabitable due to global warming really.
Well, you know those crafty Jews. What with their perverted engineering and technology, they'll probably make Israel more habitable then ever!

I mean Zionists. Crafty Zionists.
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Old 29th May 2019, 04:32 PM   #1665
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Are you seriously quoting the Bible as a source of accurate historical information?




As you now know, only a minority of Israelis voted for Likud.
You are also probably unaware that Hamas received almost 45% of the vote in the election that brought it to power.
This means that a greater percentage of Palestinians oppose a peaceful solution and co-existence than Israelis do, even assuming that Likud is dedicated to the extinction of the Palestinians (which is highly debatable at best).
Your argument would be better suited if turned against the Palestinian Arabs.
He does not understand how a parliamentary system works, apparently.
More often then not, one party does not get a majority of the seats, and the party with the most seats won has to make a coalition with other smaller parties to govern. Happnes almost every election In Italy and Israel. That Bibi is having problems getting a coalition together ( I understand that some of the usual Likud partners think Bibi is damaged goods due to the corruption charges and won't last long) is why his future is in doubt.
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Old 29th May 2019, 04:34 PM   #1666
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Well, you know those crafty Jews. What with their perverted engineering and technology, they'll probably make Israel more habitable then ever!

I mean Zionists. Crafty Zionists.
I see that Bibi is having severe problems..even some of Likud's usual partners are balking at him with the corruption charges over his head.
Update:New elections will happen in Israel a little over a month after the last ones.
At this point you have to wonder if Bibi is going to be under pressure from Likud to "voluntary" step down.
Maybe he and May can cry on each others shoulders.
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Old 30th May 2019, 05:00 AM   #1667
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Also a minority, so clearly just because they are in power winning a minority of the vote means they have no moral responsibility for the situation like Likud.
Sorry, but no matter how many times I read this, I still cannot make any sense of it.
Can anyone translate for me?
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Old 30th May 2019, 06:40 AM   #1668
Michel H
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Sorry, but no matter how many times I read this, I still cannot make any sense of it.
Can anyone translate for me?
I don't understand this reply either (particularly in the context of replying to you).

But there are some good news from our friends of RT.com:

Quote:
Middle East peace only comes with creation of Palestinian state, Jordanís king tells Kushner

Jordanís King Abdullah told US President Donald Trumpís adviser, Jared Kushner, that a lasting Middle East peace can only come with the creation of a Palestinian state on land captured by Israel in a 1967 war, and with east Jerusalem as its capital, Reuters said.

Kushner is leading a US delegation to the Middle East this week seeking support for a late June workshop aimed at helping the Palestinians.

A palace statement on Wednesday said the monarch told Kushner Israel had to withdraw from the West Bank that was under Jordanian control before Israel captured it in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

Jordan is reportedly worried that a still-secret Washington plan to end the Arab-Israeli conflict could jettison the two-state solution.
It seems to me that Donald Trump's unilateral support for Israel cannot bring peace in the Middle East (though initiatives to improve daily lives of Palestinians are of course welcome).

In addition, a balanced peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians would probably have important ramifications on U.S.-Iran relations, and for reducing terrorism risks, and perhaps long lines at airports for security checks.
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Old 30th May 2019, 04:05 PM   #1669
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In addition, a balanced peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians would probably have important ramifications on U.S.-Iran relations, and for reducing terrorism risks, and perhaps long lines at airports for security checks.
How on earth can you possibly be this naive? Iran doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians, except to the extent that they can use them to further Iran's own goals. And those goals aren't peace with Israel or the US. Iran may use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a pretext, but they will find other pretexts if necessary. Furthermore, the conflict is useful to Iran, so Iran will actively try to prevent any resolution.

As for airport security, seeing as how bin Laden wanted Al Andalus back I don't think this is a problem you can solve by placating them.
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Old 31st May 2019, 01:57 PM   #1670
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How on earth can you possibly be this naive? Iran doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians, except to the extent that they can use them to further Iran's own goals. And those goals aren't peace with Israel or the US. Iran may use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a pretext, but they will find other pretexts if necessary. Furthermore, the conflict is useful to Iran, so Iran will actively try to prevent any resolution.

As for airport security, seeing as how bin Laden wanted Al Andalus back I don't think this is a problem you can solve by placating them.
Quote:
Iran doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians, except to the extent that they can use them to further Iran's own goals.
Wikipedia explains:
Quote:
Quds Day (Jerusalem Day; Quds is the Arabic name for Jerusalem), officially called International Quds Day (Persian: روز جهانی قدس‎), is an annual event held on the last Friday of Ramadan that was initiated by the Islamic Republic of Iran in 1979 to express support for the Palestinians and oppose Zionism and Israel.[2]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Day/)

Actually, this event took place today:
Quote:
May 31 (UPI) -- Iranian officials used the celebration of Quds Day to slam U.S. President Donald Trump's proposed peace plan for Israel and the Palestinians.

Quds Day protesters mocked Trump, calling his plan "deal of the century" with Iranian President Hassan Rouhani saying it would be the "bankruptcy of the century" for those participating in it. He said the plan "definitely will not come to fruition, "government-owned PressTV reported.
...
Quds is the Arabic name for Jerusalem, and the celebration has taken place on the last day of Ramadan every year since 1979 in Iran to express support for the Palestinians. Quds Day celebrations also took place in Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan and Malaysia.

"The day (marks) the confrontation of all Muslims with the world's aggressors and the event's message is that Palestine will be alive forever and al-Quds will remain for Muslims," Rouhani said.

"We have no doubt that the ultimate victory will be for the righteous and Palestine, and that the land of Palestine will be a safe place for Muslims, Christians and Jews."
(https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...8581559308178/)
As you can see from the last highlighted part, the Iranian president Rouhani (who incidentally holds a PhD degree in Constitutional Law from the Glasgow Caledonian University in Scotland) expressed his confidence that one day Palestine will be a safe place, not only for Muslims, but also for Jews.
Quote:
As for airport security, seeing as how bin Laden wanted Al Andalus back I don't think this is a problem you can solve by placating them.
Nowadays, most people in Spain are Spanish-speaking Christians or Atheists. If some Muslim army wanted to "retake Spain from Christian invaders", this would of course be completely unacceptable under international law.

However, this is highly hypothetical. What we are dealing with now is an illegal occupation by Israel, with U.S. support. It seems to me it is reasonable (and not naive) to assume that, if the illegal occupation ended, terrorism would greatly subside, because of a lack of motivation.

You seem to be saying "Come on, don't be naive, it is good to steal every month land that doesn't belong to you". But this is a very dangerous, Nazi-like, ideology.

Last edited by Michel H; 31st May 2019 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 09:32 AM   #1671
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How on earth can you possibly be this naive? Iran doesn't give a crap about the Palestinians, except to the extent that they can use them to further Iran's own goals. And those goals aren't peace with Israel or the US. Iran may use the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a pretext, but they will find other pretexts if necessary. Furthermore, the conflict is useful to Iran, so Iran will actively try to prevent any resolution.
Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
That Iran is putting on a show in support of the Palestinian Arabs does not mean they are not also trying to advance their own aims in the region.
It is most certainly in the interests of the ruling elite of Iran to support opposition, especially armed opposition, to Israel. This is why Iran has supplied weapons as well as cash to Hamas. I am not aware of any humanitarian aid they have given, nor of any assistance with infrastructure or rebuilding of the Palestinian economy.
This fact has not been lost on the Palestinians:
Quote:
Palestinian Authority spokesman Nabil Abu Rudaineh has said of former Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that "The one who does not represent the Iranian people, who falsified election results, who oppressed the Iranian people and stole authority has no right to speak about Palestine, its president or its representatives".

In September 2010, former Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that the peace talks in Washington would not achieve their goals, because Hamas is the true representative of the Palestinian people, among other reasons. PA officials responded to these Iranian statements with "unprecedented ferocity". Omar Al-Ghoul replied that the time had come to put an end to Iran's "regime of death and destruction." Fatah spokesman Osama Al-Qawasmi said that Iran is striving to divide Palestine, to spark civil wars and sectarian and ethnic strife in numerous Arab regions, and therefore it cannot benefit the Palestinian people.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 12:24 PM   #1672
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
That Iran is putting on a show in support of the Palestinian Arabs does not mean they are not also trying to advance their own aims in the region.
It is most certainly in the interests of the ruling elite of Iran to support opposition, especially armed opposition, to Israel. This is why Iran has supplied weapons as well as cash to Hamas. I am not aware of any humanitarian aid they have given, nor of any assistance with infrastructure or rebuilding of the Palestinian economy.
This fact has not been lost on the Palestinians:
There is a difference between the current president of Iran, Hassan Rouhani, and his predecessor, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (Rouhani is of course more moderate). Iran has been giving financial aid (which could be used for humanitarian purposes) to Hamas for some time, but this seems to have more or less stopped now, because of several reasons (Hamas and Iran supporting different sides in the Syrian civil war, economic difficulties in Iran ...). Now Iran is supplying rockets (and probably equipment to manufacture them) through Egypt ...

Formally, Hamas and Iran are opposed to the two-state solution for the long-term. I regret this, but, at the same time, there are some historical and logical reasons for this situation ("Muslims should not have to 'pay' because some mistakes were made in Europe"), and what people do is more important than what they say. It seems to me that Khamenei and Rouhani are both relatively moderate clerics (nothing comparable to the "universal troublemaker" Trump and his "colleagues"), I almost cannot imagine such leaders would launch an offensive to "free Palestine fully and destroy Israel" after two Palestinian states have been created, one in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and another one in Gaza (they are not trying to do that now, I don't see why they would do such a thing, after major Israeli concessions):
Quote:
In 2005 Khamenei clarified Iran's position after an international furore erupted over a remark attributed to President Ahmadinejad according to which Israel should be "wiped off the map" by saying that "the Islamic Republic has never threatened and will never threaten any country."[42]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Israel_relations)
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Old 2nd June 2019, 06:04 PM   #1673
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
what people do is more important than what they say.
True. So why do you keep refusing to consider what the Palestinian leadership is actually doing, and instead always appeal to what they are saying?
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Old 3rd June 2019, 03:01 AM   #1674
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
True. So why do you keep refusing to consider what the Palestinian leadership is actually doing, and instead always appeal to what they are saying?
I don't like all the things that Palestinian leaders are saying or doing, but Palestinians may have a right to defend themselves (like anybody else) when they are subjected to blockades or occupation, it's understandable.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 06:08 AM   #1675
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
I don't like all the things that Palestinian leaders are saying or doing, but Palestinians may have a right to defend themselves (like anybody else) when they are subjected to blockades or occupation, it's understandable.
They aren't defending themselves. They are trying to kill civilians. The difference is not subtle.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 07:42 AM   #1676
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
They aren't defending themselves. They are trying to kill civilians. The difference is not subtle.
In my opinion, the first thing Hamas should do, before resorting to any kind of violence, is to recognize unambiguously Israel's right to exist, fot the very long term, "for ever". It seems to me that the "maximalist" position on Palestine and Israel chosen by Hamas and Iran only complicates attempts to find a satisfactory solution to this conflict, and to improve the lives of Palestinians.

On the other hand, even the United Nations recognize a right of self-defense, article 51 of the U.N. Charter says:
Quote:
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.
(https://scholarship.law.edu/cgi/view...text=lawreview).
During World War II, the U.S. did not hesitate bombing civilians in Germany and Japan on a very massive scale (for worse than the "mini-attacks" by Hamas) in order to impose an (unnecessary) unconditional surrender of these countries (followed by invasions), even though they posed essentially no threat to American territorial integrity at the time of the bombings, in 1944 and 1945, towards the end of the war. Of course, the list of U.S. crimes (in my opinion) is far longer than that, opening this debate here would take too long.

Last edited by Michel H; 3rd June 2019 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:02 AM   #1677
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In my opinion, the first thing Hamas should do, before resorting to any kind of violence, is to recognize unambiguously Israel's right to exist, fot the very long term, "for ever".
Your opinion has no influence on what Hamas actually does. They certainly don't agree with you.

Quote:
On the other hand, even the United Nations recognize a right of self-defense
Once again, what Hamas does is not self defense. It serves no self defense purpose.

Quote:
During World War II, the U.S. did not hesitate bombing civilians in Germany and Japan on a very massive scale (for worse than the "mini-attacks" by Hamas) in order to impose an (unnecessary) unconditional surrender of these countries (followed by invasions), even though they posed essentially no threat to American territorial integrity at the time of the bombings, in 1944 and 1945, towards the end of the war. Of course, the list of U.S. crimes (in my opinion) is far longer than that, opening this debate here would take too long.
This is not relevant in any way, shape, or form to the topic of this thread. It's just whataboutism.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 04:50 PM   #1678
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What part of "Hamas is a radical Isalmic Fundementalist Organization" does Michael H not understand?

Oh, is a just another US hating trendy Euro left wind radical. No need to waste time on him.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 05:39 PM   #1679
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What part of "Hamas is a radical Isalmic Fundementalist Organization" does Michael H not understand?

Oh, is a just another US hating trendy Euro left wind radical. No need to waste time on him.
When Hamas wrote:
Quote:
17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds.
(link: https://hamas.ps/en/post/678)
in its latest (2017) charter, it showed a greater respect for English spelling than what you are doing now.

And, no, I don't hate the U.S. or Americans, I am just disgusted by many current U.S. policies - this is a major problem in the world nowadays, I think. I was a graduate student for four years in the United States, and paid as a teaching and research assistant. I am still grateful for the opportunity. And let us not forget that the transistor was invented in the U.S..

Last edited by Michel H; 3rd June 2019 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 08:42 PM   #1680
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
When Hamas wrote:
Ahem.

Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
what people do is more important than what they say
You say this, but your posts indicate you don't actually believe it. You are not to be taken seriously.
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