ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 22nd March 2019, 11:28 PM   #441
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,976
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

I didn't say they were stealing jobs. Don't twist my words.

As the above is a direct quote from the GRAUNIAD have a go at them.

Have it your way. Wages in Romania are exactly the same as in the UK. There is no debating with some people.
You said they were driving down wages - this allegation is unsupported by facts. Studies show that this is not the case.

You then produced a couple of "anecdotes" which sounded like they came straight from the Express or Mail. The alleged accountant couldn't have worked full time and earned £600 a month and some stream of consciousness about a beggar that I've seen versions of for decades.

Jeremy Corbyn may think he's protecting British workers (though I think his political dogma has more to do with it) but in truth he's playing to the xenophobia which is rife in British society.

Last edited by The Don; 22nd March 2019 at 11:31 PM. Reason: fix tags
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 12:25 AM   #442
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 12,793
Originally Posted by ctamblyn View Post
Relax, everyone.

Uri Geller is going to stop Brexit with the power of his mind.

https://twitter.com/JewishTelegraph/...45636216152065
I thought it was a joke...

Uri Geller writes bizarre letter to Theresa May vowing to 'stop you telepathically from leading Britain into Brexit'
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 01:02 AM   #443
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,575
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Anybody know what's going on? My mind has shut down, Brexit-wise; blown a fuse maybe. Any advice much appreciated.

What is “going on”, is that firstly -

(1) the PM will again try to present her “Deal” to the House next week. However, last night (Friday 22nd March) she gave a press statement saying that she may not bring that Bill back if she cannot find enough support over the next few days. That sounds like “political-speak” for admitting that so far she has not got enough MP's to back her deal. Also of course, the Speaker (John Bercow) has ruled that she will not be able to bring that deal back anyway unless the substance of the deal has significantly changed (and that “substance change” also seems unlikely).

However, if she is allowed to present that same Bill again, and if MP's do vote to accept it this time, then the UK would leave the EU on 22nd May (the revised date replacing 29th March).

Alternatively -

(2) if MP's vote against her returned Bil (or if the Speaker blocks it ... or if she herself decides not to present it), then Mrs May must return to the EU before 12th April with what the EU just described as a new plan that “indicates the way forward”, and that can be either (a) a new Exit plan that has the backing of the majority of UK MP's, or (b) a decision to hold a new referendum, or (c) a decision to hold a General Election, or (d) a decision to “Revoke Article-50” (which means the UK simply agrees to stay in the EU after all), or (e) something else entirely that nobody has thought of yet! And that all has to happen by 12th April, in which case if the EU agrees that the new “way forward” is acceptable, then the EU will grant a much longer delay for the UK to get that new “way forward” into action … that new delay could be for 6 months or even up to a whole year.

If that happens, ie if Mrs May cannot get her Deal heard or passed at the third attempt, so that she is forced to return to the EU by 12th April with an acceptable new “way forward”, then the EU expects the UK to take part in the EU elections that are taking place from 23rd to 26th May. What happens if the UK declines to take part in those elections is, afaik, unknown. Of course it's also technically possible that Mrs May will refuse to return to the EU on 12th April, or she may not have any agreed new "way foreward" to put to the EU by 12th April ... in which case we crash out of the EU (on 22nd May, I think) with a "No Deal Brexit"

Basically what all that means is that if we don't leave on 22nd May (due to the PM winning her Bill at it's third attempt), then the most likely option is that the party leaders collectively take charge of finding a new “way forward” (ie it's taken out of the sole hands of the PM), and that the UK will either agree an entirely new Deal to Exit the EU (and the EU will grant up to a year to sort that out), or else if a new “way forward” cannot be agreed amongst all the MPs, then the most likely options are either a new referendum or stay in the EU (ie “revoke” Article-50).

Last bit of news – a public on-line petition to Revoke Article-50 (ie just cancel plans for any Brexit and remain in the EU) was started on Thursday (21st March), and that now has 4 million signatures (which is probably a record, and in record quick time, for any public UK protest). And latest polls show that a new referendum would probably return a victory for ”Remain in EU” by a fairly sizeable margin of as much as up to 55% Remain vs 45% Leave (but of course the polls have proved spectacularly wrong in recent UK elections).

Last edited by IanS; 23rd March 2019 at 01:16 AM.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 01:25 AM   #444
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,938
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
If that happens, ie if Mrs May cannot get her Deal heard or passed at the third attempt, so that she is forced to return to the EU by 12th April with an acceptable new “way forward”, then the EU expects the UK to take part in the EU elections that are taking place from 23rd to 26th May.
No, the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal on April 12th if May doesn't either get her deal through Parliament or request a longer extension to implement some other specified plan before that date. A request for a longer extension means acceptance that the UK will participate in the May elections.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 01:39 AM   #445
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,659
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
No, the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal on April 12th if May doesn't either get her deal through Parliament or request a longer extension to implement some other specified plan before that date. A request for a longer extension means acceptance that the UK will participate in the May elections.
Yes, which is obviously unacceptable. How very dare the UK populace have a say in Europe.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 01:52 AM   #446
Azrael 5
Philosopher
 
Azrael 5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,892
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
He's been validiated by CIA MI5 apaprently. Did I blink and miss that?
__________________
"I achieve these results through a mixture of magic,misdirection,suggestion and showmanship"-Derren Brown
Azrael 5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 02:17 AM   #447
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,382
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I didn't say they were stealing jobs. Don't twist my words.

As the above is a direct quote from the GRAUNIAD have a go at them.

Have it your way. Wages in Romania are exactly the same as in the UK. There is no debating with some people.
I take it that means you can't defend your conjectures and anecdotes?

Last edited by Information Analyst; 23rd March 2019 at 02:21 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 02:37 AM   #448
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,243
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The issue of expatriate voting is an interesting one and linked to the question of contribution to and involvement in society as much as anything else.
Does someone really deserve the right to vote in a country when they're no-longer contributing to it (via taxation) or involved with it on a day-to-day basis, merely because they're citizens.
Perhaps a limited franchise, parliamentary elections and referenda only?

I'd also point out that UK citizens living outside the UK only lose their franchise after fifteen years, if they were registered to vote before leaving.
Interesting piece in The Guardian on government plans to extend expatriate voting being blocked.
The idea is unpopular with the Electoral Commission, the Electoral Reform Society, Labour and anti-corruption activists and groups.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 02:52 AM   #449
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 20,625
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As Bob Dylan said, it doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.

ETA: What about the GRAUNIAD:



They will do it for a miserly wage a Brit will not touch.

Don't get me wrong, they are optimising their own circumstances. That's why people migrate.

Picking up 400 crates an hour for £12 is the EU taking the piss, not the fault of the Romanians.

However, workers rights do need to be protected and this is where Corbyn is coming from. Nothing to do with xenophobia.
£12 an hour is well above the UK minimum wage, why is it the EU 'taking the piss'? They don't set the UK minimum wage.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 03:22 AM   #450
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,890
I have looked. I can't find a single position for a qualified accountant in the UK paying £7,200 a year. Not even a part-time one.

about the lowest I can find is in the region of £25k-30k.

Which ain't great. But it ain't 600 quid a month
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 04:24 AM   #451
Mr Fied
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 414
[quote=Vixen;12642419]
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post

I didn't say they were stealing jobs. Don't twist my words.

As the above is a direct quote from the GRAUNIAD have a go at them.

Have it your way. Wages in Romania are exactly the same as in the UK. There is no debating with some people.
Of course they're not, but neither are the living costs. Having worked in various countries, more often than not you will find that doing a similar job in other countries gives you roughly the same standard of living.

Most of the low skilled jobs given to immigrants in the UK are done so because they can't be filled by homegrown workers.
Mr Fied is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 05:45 AM   #452
IanS
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,575
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
No, the UK crashes out of the EU with no deal on April 12th if May doesn't either get her deal through Parliament or request a longer extension to implement some other specified plan before that date. A request for a longer extension means acceptance that the UK will participate in the May elections.

Yes, I agree with that. Though in the the part that you quoted from my post, I had actually confused that with a different scenario which I was unclear about, but which I think is the most likely scenario, namely this -

- next week if Mrs May's "Revised Deal" is outvoted for a 3rd time, then she is obliged to meet with leaders from all sides of the House to formulate what the EU asked for as the outline of a viable “new way forward”. Then assuming the UK MP's agree upon a new outline plan, Mrs May has agreed to take that to the EU by April 12th, in which case the EU have already said that if the plan is viable they will grant the UK a much longer extension (6 months or more) as time in which UK MPs can carefully thrash out all the specific details of that new way forward ….

… that's all fine and fairly clear (I think?), except that the EU have imposed a very strict condition saying they will only grant that longer extension IF the UK agrees to participate in the EU elections that begin on 23rd May … and I think (?) the threat is that if by 22nd May the UK (Mrs May) has still not confirmed that we are participating in those EU elections, then the UK will automatically leave with “No Deal” on that date of 22nd May … or at least that's the way I understood the EU statements of this last week … is that right??, do you think?
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 06:32 AM   #453
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,890
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Yes, I agree with that. Though in the the part that you quoted from my post, I had actually confused that with a different scenario which I was unclear about, but which I think is the most likely scenario, namely this -

- next week if Mrs May's "Revised Deal" is outvoted for a 3rd time, then she is obliged to meet with leaders from all sides of the House to formulate what the EU asked for as the outline of a viable “new way forward”. Then assuming the UK MP's agree upon a new outline plan, Mrs May has agreed to take that to the EU by April 12th, in which case the EU have already said that if the plan is viable they will grant the UK a much longer extension (6 months or more) as time in which UK MPs can carefully thrash out all the specific details of that new way forward ….

… that's all fine and fairly clear (I think?), except that the EU have imposed a very strict condition saying they will only grant that longer extension IF the UK agrees to participate in the EU elections that begin on 23rd May … and I think (?) the threat is that if by 22nd May the UK (Mrs May) has still not confirmed that we are participating in those EU elections, then the UK will automatically leave with “No Deal” on that date of 22nd May … or at least that's the way I understood the EU statements of this last week … is that right??, do you think?
I suppose the truth is that anything might happen but I think the current plan is that if we want to extend beyond April then that requires the UK to agree to participate in the elections. If we don't agree to that we drop out on April 12th.

Although there still seems to be a limbo around March 29th because we haven't passed any legislation to cancel that in Parliament.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 07:02 AM   #454
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,976
Unless parliament does something, we crash out with no deal on March 29th.

If parliament passes suitable legislation then we'll accept the EU's extension and leave with Theresa May's deal in place in 29 May or, if there is no vote or if the vote fails, we have until 12 April to go back to the EU with a plan.

The default is still a no-deal on the 29th March.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 07:56 AM   #455
ohms
Graduate Poster
 
ohms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,129
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Unless parliament does something, we crash out with no deal on March 29th.

If parliament passes suitable legislation then we'll accept the EU's extension and leave with Theresa May's deal in place in 29 May or, if there is no vote or if the vote fails, we have until 12 April to go back to the EU with a plan.

The default is still a no-deal on the 29th March.
It's a bit more complicated than that. If Parliament does nothing then we would technically still be in the EU as per the non-legislative act the EU published yesterday but domestically it would be a huge mess. Passing the statutory instrument through both houses should be a formality but, with Brexit, you never know what might happen next.
__________________
Long time lurker
ohms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 08:24 AM   #456
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,890
Originally Posted by ohms View Post
It's a bit more complicated than that. If Parliament does nothing then we would technically still be in the EU as per the non-legislative act the EU published yesterday but domestically it would be a huge mess. Passing the statutory instrument through both houses should be a formality but, with Brexit, you never know what might happen next.
Assuming the legislation comes to the House is it going to be amendable?

If so fun and games might ensue.

I have no confidence in it getting passed if it is purely to extend the deadline till April 12.

The hard brexiteers would rather we left now.

Are Labour going to support a Tory bill?
Will the SNP?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 09:53 AM   #457
ohms
Graduate Poster
 
ohms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,129
Not with statutory instruments, Parliament can only approve or reject them:

https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/...y-legislation/
__________________
Long time lurker
ohms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 10:11 AM   #458
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,815
As the cancel brexit petition tops 4 million, the lady who started it has been receiving death threats and has closed her social media down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-47678275

If the vote had been 52% remain and 48% leave, do you think those who wanted to leave would have stopped campaigning, given up, folded UKIP and just gone away?

No they would not.

As those people who claim another referendum is undemocratic criticised the SNP for wanting a second one on independence?

No they have not.

Or do they criticise the second devolution referendums that took place in Scotland and Wales?

No they do not.

The brexiters pick and chose what suits them, just like everyone else does. Those trying to stop brexit are campaigners just like the brexiters are. They both use whatever lawful and peaceful means that are allowed in a democracy to get their way.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 11:33 AM   #459
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 16,793
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post

The brexiters pick and chose what suits them, just like everyone else does. Those trying to stop brexit are campaigners just like the brexiters are. They both use whatever lawful and peaceful means that are allowed in a democracy to get their way.
Then what is the evidence based method skeptics should use to determine if they should support a second referendum?
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 12:30 PM   #460
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,991
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then what is the evidence based method skeptics should use to determine if they should support a second referendum?
There is no evidence based method by which to determine personal preference.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 01:30 PM   #461
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,382
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
As the cancel brexit petition tops 4 million, the lady who started it has been receiving death threats and has closed her social media down.
Death threats - and one actual murder - definitely seem to be more of a Leave thing.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 02:23 PM   #462
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,702
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Death threats - and one actual murder - definitely seem to be more of a Leave thing.
Well after all they are defending the will of the people from those millions of whiners who keep pointing Brexit is unworkable.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 03:51 PM   #463
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,449
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Unless parliament does something, we crash out with no deal on March 29th.

If parliament passes suitable legislation then we'll accept the EU's extension and leave with Theresa May's deal in place in 29 May or, if there is no vote or if the vote fails, we have until 12 April to go back to the EU with a plan.

The default is still a no-deal on the 29th March.
Originally Posted by ohms View Post
It's a bit more complicated than that. If Parliament does nothing then we would technically still be in the EU as per the non-legislative act the EU published yesterday but domestically it would be a huge mess. Passing the statutory instrument through both houses should be a formality but, with Brexit, you never know what might happen next.

The more I read about all this the more confused I become. I've been following these threads since they started. I've gotten a Guardian feed into my email every day for years now, and for quite a while I've been getting their special Brexit feed.

I feel like I'm deeper in the weeds all the time.

I give up.

I guess I'm just gonna have to wait until you guys are all the way out or all the way in. It's the only way I'll be able to figure this out.

It isn't even all that much fun to watch any more. Kinda painful, actually.

__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 04:34 PM   #464
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,363
Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post

Of course they're not, but neither are the living costs. Having worked in various countries, more often than not you will find that doing a similar job in other countries gives you roughly the same standard of living.

True, but when the comparative value of the wages between the countries are sufficiently different it becomes more attractive to short term workers from the country with the lower value currency to build up a nest egg to take back. Doing a poorly paid job and living in low cost shared accommodation for a period of time you decide in order to return with money that will have more spending power when you get back home is a more attractive proposition than being in that position perminantly. Not that it is the fault of the EU that in this country you can work full time and not have the necessary means to afford decent accommodation and have a secure and reasonable standard of living. When people complain that it "isn't worth" the unemployed taking a job, the problem is not necessarily that benefits are too generous.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 05:44 PM   #465
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,388
Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Well this seems more sensible and achievable than the major brexit goals.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 11:12 PM   #466
SusanB-M1
Incurable Optimist
 
SusanB-M1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,618
Before turning off the radio yesterday evening, I listened to an interview with some Editor of The Times, Ken Shipman or something, talking about the just about inevitable resignation of Theresa May. Sounded much more like a drag-her-down whatever she does, heavy dose of misogyny to me.

Of course she has made mistakes, but at present, I think the idea of a whole change of PMs is idiotic.
SusanB-M1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd March 2019, 11:36 PM   #467
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,170
Changing horses midstream seems to be SOP nowadays.
__________________
Opinion is divided on the subject. All the others say it is; I say it isn’t.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 01:44 AM   #468
SezMe
post-pre-born
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 23,117
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It would be less bad than a no deal a week from now. Even if people still died, it would be proven who the executioner was. That too is worth a lot, come next election.

McHrozni
Small consolation for those who did the dying.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 03:13 AM   #469
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,815
No one could have negotiated a "good deal" with the EU.

1 - there is no consensus in Parliament as to what is a good deal
2 - there is no one in Parliament would could have out negotiated the EU.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 03:13 AM   #470
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 675
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then what is the evidence based method skeptics should use to determine if they should support a second referendum?
You could ask a sample of people carefully selected to represent the demographics as closely as possible whether they think Britain should leave the EU or not. If a significant majority say not, there’s your reason for the third* referendum.

*yes, we have already had two.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 03:24 AM   #471
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,815
I never got how the EU supposedly ruled over is and how we will get lots of power back by leaving.

The political group that has the most influence over my life is the local council. What they do and decide affects all the local infrastructure and what I can and cannot do in my day to day life.

Second comes the Scottish parliament which I can think of as having had 3 major impacts, there is no toll on a bridge I go over a lot, there is no prescription charges and I pay different tax.

Then comes Westminster, which primarily affects me in terms of the legal system, which affects me but only if I took up stealing, murdering and speeding.

Then comes the EU and its impact on me is....?
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 03:28 AM   #472
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 675
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No one could have negotiated a "good deal" with the EU.

1 - there is no consensus in Parliament as to what is a good deal
2 - there is no one in Parliament would could have out negotiated the EU.
I think point 1 is false. There is secretly a consensus - or a majority at least, for Remain. The problem is that the stupid referendum has cowed MPs into accepting something they don’t want because they might lose their jobs otherwise.

Point 2 is very true. There is absolutely no way that the EU was ever going to let Britain have a deal that was better than what we have now as a member. They cannot possibly be sending the message to other countries “hey, you’ll be better off if you leave”. No Deal is bad for the EU, but it’s not as bad as any deal that says you are better off not in the EU. For some reason, that point seems to have eluded the numbskulls negotiating for Britain.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 03:30 AM   #473
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,890
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I never got how the EU supposedly ruled over is and how we will get lots of power back by leaving.

The political group that has the most influence over my life is the local council. What they do and decide affects all the local infrastructure and what I can and cannot do in my day to day life.

Second comes the Scottish parliament which I can think of as having had 3 major impacts, there is no toll on a bridge I go over a lot, there is no prescription charges and I pay different tax.

Then comes Westminster, which primarily affects me in terms of the legal system, which affects me but only if I took up stealing, murdering and speeding.

Then comes the EU and its impact on me is....?
I think you might have some of this backwards. While the more proximate authorities might have more touch points on your daily life the decisions that affect them and the power to change things largely reside in Westminster.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 03:35 AM   #474
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,890
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I think point 1 is false. There is secretly a consensus - or a majority at least, for Remain. The problem is that the stupid referendum has cowed MPs into accepting something they don’t want because they might lose their jobs otherwise.

Point 2 is very true. There is absolutely no way that the EU was ever going to let Britain have a deal that was better than what we have now as a member. They cannot possibly be sending the message to other countries “hey, you’ll be better off if you leave”. No Deal is bad for the EU, but it’s not as bad as any deal that says you are better off not in the EU. For some reason, that point seems to have eluded the numbskulls negotiating for Britain.
I would actually put point 2 differently. Given that we are leaving the EU there are a very limited* number of solutions that are possible. It really wasn't a negotiation so much as it was a determination as to what the rules allowed the UK to do and which of those end points the UK wanted to select.

The fundamental mistake UK negotiators have appeared to make is in thinking that the EU could or would simply ignore its own rules in order to make a bespoke deal for the UK because... BMW.

*in actual fact, given the red lines of the UK and the Ireland situation the true number of possible solutions may be 0.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 03:49 AM   #475
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 675
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post

Then comes the EU and its impact on me is....?
Any goods you buy that come from the EU are cheaper because of the EU. You can travel abroad in the EU with minimal documentation. You need a passport at the border between the UK and the rest of the EU (except Ireland) but your drivers license and your car insurance are valid in the EU. Also, Your mobile phone operator cannot fleece you as it used to do when in other EU countries.

Your car is much safer than in the past because of EU standards. Food that you eat is safer because of EU safety standards.

Your employment rights are higher because of EU employment law. For example, most people cannot be made to work more than 48 hours per week because of the EU.

If you are a research scientist, you could be being funded by the EU science budget. If you work for an airline, your company benefits enormously from EU wide agreements on air travel.

You can be sure your Claret comes from Bordeaux, your Parma ham and your Stilton come from the correct regions.

If you want to live and work in Germany, France or even Romania, you can do so thanks to the EU.

There are down sides of course, you cannot drive your workers for 80 hours a week and you cannot call your dry cured ham that you make in a factory outside Rotherham “Parma ham”. Also, you can’t stop Romanians, Germans or French from coming here, taking jobs, paying taxes and improving the cultural diversity of the place.

It should be noted that, when I say “the EU”, as of now that includes the UK. All of the laws and regulations that lead to the things above were agreed in a decision making process in which the British government has huge influence. That influence will be going away in any scenario that is not Remain.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 04:00 AM   #476
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 675
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I would actually put point 2 differently. Given that we are leaving the EU there are a very limited* number of solutions that are possible. It really wasn't a negotiation so much as it was a determination as to what the rules allowed the UK to do and which of those end points the UK wanted to select.

The fundamental mistake UK negotiators have appeared to make is in thinking that the EU could or would simply ignore its own rules in order to make a bespoke deal for the UK because... BMW.

*in actual fact, given the red lines of the UK and the Ireland situation the true number of possible solutions may be 0.
Actually, the number of solutions is at least 1. No Deal is always possible because the red lines will mean nothing if we hit the deadline and we haven’t agreed a deal. I would say Remain is also always possible (up to deadline day) because I don’t think it is a given that we are leaving the EU. I admit the possibility of Remain is looking pretty remote at the moment, but it is a way out that satisfies all of the legal constraints, if not the political constraints.

As for your point about BMW sand EU rules, I agree. In conversations I have with Brexiteers, they often claim “the EU will do a deal with us because of BMW (it’s always BMW, not Volkswagen, or Peugeot or Fiat) and Prosecco. However, they ignore the EU’s past history which has often prioritized policy ahead of economics.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 04:12 AM   #477
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,227
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No one could have negotiated a "good deal" with the EU.

1 - there is no consensus in Parliament as to what is a good deal
2 - there is no one in Parliament would could have out negotiated the EU.
3 - there is no deal that actually leaves the country better off than remaining.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 04:14 AM   #478
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 24,227
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/s...58407844020226

Quote:
Holy smokes. This is the best aerial footage yet.
Video embedded in tweet.

When I heard the figure of a million people there I saw sceptical. It's self-reported, for a start. But after seeing this footage I can believe it. That's a lot of people.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 04:19 AM   #479
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,206
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Actually, the number of solutions is at least 1. No Deal is always possible because the red lines will mean nothing if we hit the deadline and we haven’t agreed a deal. I would say Remain is also always possible (up to deadline day) because I don’t think it is a given that we are leaving the EU. I admit the possibility of Remain is looking pretty remote at the moment, but it is a way out that satisfies all of the legal constraints, if not the political constraints.

As for your point about BMW sand EU rules, I agree. In conversations I have with Brexiteers, they often claim “the EU will do a deal with us because of BMW (it’s always BMW, not Volkswagen, or Peugeot or Fiat) and Prosecco. However, they ignore the EU’s past history which has often prioritized policy ahead of economics.
Why is remain remote?
I may be a simpleton but what I understand is
1. Britain is part of the EU
2. A solid majority of currently registered voters like it that way.

I never believed there would be Brexit, and still don't just looking on from down under.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th March 2019, 05:00 AM   #480
KDLarsen
Illuminator
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,999
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
No one could have negotiated a "good deal" with the EU.

1 - there is no consensus in Parliament as to what is a good deal
2 - there is no one in Parliament would could have out negotiated the EU.
I don't know about that, but in any case, May pretty much kneecapped the negotiations right from the start, by imposing the red lines she had unilaterally decided upon.
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:30 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.