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Old 24th March 2019, 05:56 AM   #481
dann
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Why is remain remote?
I may be a simpleton but what I understand is
1. Britain is part of the EU
2. A solid majority of currently registered voters like it that way.

I never believed there would be Brexit, and still don't just looking on from down under.

The majority seems to be much more solid if you are talking about staying or leaving in general, but about "leaving on the terms that the government has negotiated."

Quote:
For most of this year, polls have shown remain ahead of leave, typically by four to six points. But in a referendum between staying in the EU and leaving on the terms that the government has negotiated, staying enjoys an 18-point lead: 59-41%.
The polls are clear: support for staying in the EU has rocketed (Guardian, Dec. 20, 2018)
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:14 AM   #482
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It is bizarre. The majority in Parliament seems to know Brexit is a bad idea, but are afraid to say so. There's a strong possibility that a majority of the public has concluded its a bad idea, but asking them is apparently unacceptable. So we blunder towards a Brexit that a handful of little-Englanders think will turn back the clock to make Britain a great power again. The worst part is that a few years down the line we will be going cap in hand to the EU begging to be let back in and we won't be getting any of the special treatment we enjoy now.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:35 AM   #483
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The fundamental mistake UK negotiators have appeared to make is in thinking that the EU could or would simply ignore its own rules in order to make a bespoke deal for the UK because... BMW.
As a german living in germany, I find it extremely hard to understand where this delusion comes from. Or rather I don't understand why the british press is so utterly useless. Or even more to the point why the british people put up with such a useless press.

A few days ago the Association of German Chambers of Industry and Commerce (DIHK) published a survey of german business. Membership is mandatory by law.

Almost 1800 businesses were polled. Among the questions was whether they agree with this statement:

"Der Zusammenhalt der EU und damit des Binnenmarktes darf durch einen Brexit-Deal nicht gefährdet werden, auch wenn der Handel mit dem Vereinigten Königreich Schaden nimmt."

The cohesion of the EU and thereby the single market must not be endangered by a brexit-deal, even if the trade with the united kingdom is damaged.


85% agreed. The same questions was posed in 2017 before the negotations started and the responses were the same. The DIHK has been saying that since before the referendum.

The german stance is not going to change. It was never going to. There was never any reason to believe it would be different.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:44 AM   #484
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I would say Remain is also always possible (up to deadline day) because I don’t think it is a given that we are leaving the EU. I admit the possibility of Remain is looking pretty remote at the moment, but it is a way out that satisfies all of the legal constraints, if not the political constraints.

I'm far from sure that “Remain” is a distant hope. E.g., apart from the fact that a majority of MPs probably did not vote to leave the EU in the first place, and that most of them would probably still prefer to remain in the EU, and apart from the fact that there was a protest march in London yesterday that drew around 1 million people calling for us to remain by revoking Article-50 … there is also an on-line petition to Revoke Article-50 (ie to remain in the EU), that has been running since Thursday 21st March, and that now (as of 1:45pm UK time) over 4.985 million signatures (to enter a vote you have to provide a valid email, and get email cross-confirmation … ie as a measure to reduce the possibility of fake voting ... so that near 5 million number is probably real/accurate).

Also, the list of 6 or so options that is expected to be put before MP's this week (ie from tomorrow), is expected to include an option to vote for revoking Article-50 and remaining in the UK.

Of course I would agree it's a significant problem that most MPs appear to think that on balance they should nevertheless accept the result of the referendum and leave the EU no matter how damaging they expect that to be to the UK economy and jobs etc. So that may persuade them against voting to revoke Article-50 even if they would really prefer to do that.

Last edited by IanS; 24th March 2019 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:07 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The majority seems to be much more solid if you are talking about staying or leaving in general, but about "leaving on the terms that the government has negotiated."
I suspect that if you were to conduct separate polls for May's Deal/Remain and No Deal/Remain and then conduct an entirely separate poll on simply Leave/Remain you'd get a result on the last incompatible with the first two. This is, of course the result of the last referendum being based on reality vs unrestrained conjecture.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:12 AM   #486
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5 million!
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:21 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
5 million!
But we never established the criteria for what number would represent something significant.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:47 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Actually, the number of solutions is at least 1. No Deal is always possible because the red lines will mean nothing if we hit the deadline and we haven’t agreed a deal. I would say Remain is also always possible (up to deadline day) because I don’t think it is a given that we are leaving the EU. I admit the possibility of Remain is looking pretty remote at the moment, but it is a way out that satisfies all of the legal constraints, if not the political constraints.

As for your point about BMW sand EU rules, I agree. In conversations I have with Brexiteers, they often claim “the EU will do a deal with us because of BMW (it’s always BMW, not Volkswagen, or Peugeot or Fiat) and Prosecco. However, they ignore the EU’s past history which has often prioritized policy ahead of economics.
I would class both eventualities you mention above as failures to find a solution rather than solutions.

No deal means the negotiation failed and revoking means the entire project failed.

Reality will always beat any amount of wishful thinking
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:47 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
It is bizarre. The majority in Parliament seems to know Brexit is a bad idea, but are afraid to say so. There's a strong possibility that a majority of the public has concluded its a bad idea, but asking them is apparently unacceptable. So we blunder towards a Brexit that a handful of little-Englanders think will turn back the clock to make Britain a great power again. The worst part is that a few years down the line we will be going cap in hand to the EU begging to be let back in and we won't be getting any of the special treatment we enjoy now.
It's not so bizarre when you consider that the membership of the single largest party in parliament (and one which very nearly has an overall majority) are overwhelmingly in favour of leaving and even have a solid majority in favour of a no-deal Brexit. Any Conservative MP who goes out on a limb to oppose Brexit risks deselection at the next election.

You also have a the second largest party where the leader is very popular within the party but whose Brexit views are in complete opposition to the majority of members and supporters of the party. He is in absolutely no risk of losing the leadership but until and unless that were to happen, Labour policy towards the EU (leaving on unicorns and rainbows customs union terms but opposing anything that runs counter to that whether it's a second referendum, leaving on softer or harder terms - but that's what you get when your leader hasn't changed his mind on anything of note since he left the 6th form over half a century ago) will be the same.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:49 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I'm far from sure that “Remain” is a distant hope. E.g., apart from the fact that a majority of MPs probably did not vote to leave the EU in the first place, and that most of them would probably still prefer to remain in the EU, and apart from the fact that there was a protest march in London yesterday that drew around 1 million people calling for us to remain by revoking Article-50 … there is also an on-line petition to Revoke Article-50 (ie to remain in the EU), that has been running since Thursday 21st March, and that now (as of 1:45pm UK time) over 4.985 million signatures (to enter a vote you have to provide a valid email, and get email cross-confirmation … ie as a measure to reduce the possibility of fake voting ... so that near 5 million number is probably real/accurate).

Also, the list of 6 or so options that is expected to be put before MP's this week (ie from tomorrow), is expected to include an option to vote for revoking Article-50 and remaining in the UK.

Of course I would agree it's a significant problem that most MPs appear to think that on balance they should nevertheless accept the result of the referendum and leave the EU no matter how damaging they expect that to be to the UK economy and jobs etc. So that may persuade them against voting to revoke Article-50 even if they would really prefer to do that.
The problem is that both major parties are ideologically attached to Brexit.

The decision making process isn't a rational one.
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:52 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Actually, the number of solutions is at least 1. No Deal is always possible because the red lines will mean nothing if we hit the deadline and we haven’t agreed a deal.

One other thing (re the above), and I'm largely agreeing with you of course (so my posts are not really disputing anything) -

- if MPs reject Mrs May's deal again next week, and if as expected the MP's are then presented with a list of options and asked to simply tick the one which they would be most likely to vote for (see footnote), then they do not have to agree a "Deal" on that at all ... all the EU wants to see is that a majority of UK MPs can agree on one preferred option (or possibly 2 options) ...

... after that, the EU are offering up to a year for the UK parliament to thrash out the specific details of that preferred option, providing that the UK does take part in the EU elections that begin on 23rd May.



Footnote - as I understand it from yesterdays BBC news website, MPs would not be asked to have separate votes on as many as 6 so-called "way forward" options, instead they would just be required to put a tick against their most preferred option from the list ... the point of doing it that way is (apparently) to avoid what happened in that series of separate bills that were debated and voted on 10 days ago, where after MPs knew the result of the first bill that was voted on that day, many of them then voted tactically on the remaining bills (which lead to some quite false numbers where the votes for some bills were surprisingly close and for others the votes gave a surprisingly wide margin).
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:53 AM   #492
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
As a german living in germany, I find it extremely hard to understand where this delusion comes from. Or rather I don't understand why the british press is so utterly useless. Or even more to the point why the british people put up with such a useless press.

A few days ago the Association of German Chambers of Industry and Commerce (DIHK) published a survey of german business. Membership is mandatory by law.

Almost 1800 businesses were polled. Among the questions was whether they agree with this statement:

"Der Zusammenhalt der EU und damit des Binnenmarktes darf durch einen Brexit-Deal nicht gefährdet werden, auch wenn der Handel mit dem Vereinigten Königreich Schaden nimmt."

The cohesion of the EU and thereby the single market must not be endangered by a brexit-deal, even if the trade with the united kingdom is damaged.


85% agreed. The same questions was posed in 2017 before the negotations started and the responses were the same. The DIHK has been saying that since before the referendum.

The german stance is not going to change. It was never going to. There was never any reason to believe it would be different.
There is a video of David Davis talking about this. The narrative amongst leavers is that the EU isn't really democratic but just a mechanism for France and Germany to control everyone. That the EU has no real power and just dances to the tune of Angela Merkel and that if you can persuade her that Germany will lose out on car exports she can magically make fantasy a reality.

It really is an insidious little englander myth that the EU is simply a German invention to subjugate the UK because they couldn't beat us in the war. Even to the point of accusing the EU leadership of being secret Nazis.

Its pathetic really
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:55 AM   #493
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I don't think a majority of Torries is for Leaving.
A majority of them is for blaming the EU for everything - which leaves them in a corner they can't escape, now that they have a chance to actually leave.
But that would be catastrophic, as they would no longer get to pass the buck to Brussels.
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:09 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't think a majority of Torries is for Leaving.
If you're talking about MPs then a narrow majority supported Remain but a number of the Remain MPs have pivoted to Leave following the vote and in response to pressure from the parliamentary party and Conservative members.

If you're talking about Conservative Party members, they are overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit (support in recent polls is in the 70%-80% range) with a significant majority in favour of a no-deal Brexit.

I think the majority of these members genuinely believe that England (I've chosen that deliberately) is better off out of the EU and fully expect great trade deals and an export boom.
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:10 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The problem is that both major parties are ideologically attached to Brexit.

The decision making process isn't a rational one.

I'm not at all sure Labour are ideologically attached to Brexit. Jeremy Corbyn voted to "Remain" in the referendum, and he's being far from clear about what he wants to see as the overall Labour vote on any Brexit plan. Afaik, he's always voted for closer ties with the EU (and afaik the majority of Labour MPs also voted "Remain" in the referendum?).



Afaik - What Corbyn really wants is a General Election, and if that happens I think he's made clear that he would push for a new referendum (a so-called Peoples Vote)

Last edited by IanS; 24th March 2019 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:14 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/s...58407844020226







Video embedded in tweet.



When I heard the figure of a million people there I saw sceptical. It's self-reported, for a start. But after seeing this footage I can believe it. That's a lot of people.
Amazing, who knew Nigel would manage to get such a turnout of Brexiters?
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:15 AM   #497
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If you're talking about MPs then a narrow majority supported Remain but a number of the Remain MPs have pivoted to Leave following the vote and in response to pressure from the parliamentary party and Conservative members.

If you're talking about Conservative Party members, they are overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit (support in recent polls is in the 70%-80% range) with a significant majority in favour of a no-deal Brexit.

I think the majority of these members genuinely believe that England (I've chosen that deliberately) is better off out of the EU and fully expect great trade deals and an export boom.
Let me correct myself:

I agree that Conservatives are for leaving .... eventually.
But they are more interested in the prosperity of the UK than its level of independence. If they admit to themselves the price at which a no-deal leave would come, they might prefer to stay ...
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:39 AM   #498
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Of course "Conservative Party Members" is a tiny subset of "Conservative Voters" which complicates things further (true for all parties of course but it's particularly noticeable with the Tories as the subgroup is quite distinct from much of the larger group).
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:39 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Let me correct myself:

I agree that Conservatives are for leaving .... eventually.
But they are more interested in the prosperity of the UK than its level of independence. If they admit to themselves the price at which a no-deal leave would come, they might prefer to stay ...
That may be the case among Tory MPs but, according to Vince Cable, May now believes that the people voted for pain and that's what we will all get:

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...52365850714113
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:43 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Bob why don't you go and make your own thread where you can spout contrarian nonsense to your hearts content rather than constantly trying to make threads on real issues all about you?
Well said.
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:50 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
You could ask a sample of people carefully selected to represent the demographics as closely as possible whether they think Britain should leave the EU or not. If a significant majority say not, there’s your reason for the third* referendum.

*yes, we have already had two.
Or you could create a Citizen's Assembly, with membership based on demographics, have them listen to actual experts and facts, and listen to their recommendations.
We have, and it's proved remarkably successful.
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:52 AM   #502
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It seems the ministers who have been mentioned as potential replacements for May are 'rallying round':

Brexit: Ministers tipped to replace Theresa May rally round


I still don't think any of them will touch the job until after Brexit is finished one way or another, its the one thing that's kept May in her job so far and I don't think anything has really changed.
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Old 24th March 2019, 09:53 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Of course "Conservative Party Members" is a tiny subset of "Conservative Voters" which complicates things further (true for all parties of course but it's particularly noticeable with the Tories as the subgroup is quite distinct from much of the larger group).
This is a distinction no doubt lost on Tory MPs. It may very well be that while the ardent local Conservative Association members might seek to deselect Remain-supporting MPs, that doesn't necessarily mean that those same MPs would not be re-elected if they stood again.
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Old 24th March 2019, 10:06 AM   #504
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I have no idea what in heavens name is going on.


Left that up there all alone so you can quote-nail me all you like. Might as well enjoy Brexit: Endgame.
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Old 24th March 2019, 11:04 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
It is bizarre. The majority in Parliament seems to know Brexit is a bad idea, but are afraid to say so. There's a strong possibility that a majority of the public has concluded its a bad idea, but asking them is apparently unacceptable. So we blunder towards a Brexit that a handful of little-Englanders think will turn back the clock to make Britain a great power again. The worst part is that a few years down the line we will be going cap in hand to the EU begging to be let back in and we won't be getting any of the special treatment we enjoy now.
Yes, and the argument is that it is somehow a refusal of democracy to have another vote when the first was flawed, opinion seems to have shifted, and the options are now clearer.

I don't think Parliament should revoke article 50 without having promising another referendum. But another referendum on the choices available - including revoke A50 is the only way to clear the logjam
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Old 24th March 2019, 11:32 AM   #506
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I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?
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Old 24th March 2019, 11:35 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?
Vox pops can find lots of idiots.

I doubt it's common.
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 24th March 2019, 12:20 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?
I know heaps of Remain supporters, and not one has expressed such an opinion. Such interviews are likely to throw up all sorts of opinions (and, as jimbob says, a lot of idiots), and which ones make it to air may say more about the broadcaster than what is actually a representative sample of the population; the BBC tends to sit on the fence, having an studiously equal number of Remain and Leave voices (or a mix reflecting the split in the local population), with a still-doesn't-know thrown in for good measure.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 24th March 2019 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 24th March 2019, 12:42 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?
I wouldn't be too sure this person ever was a Remain voter. The Leave campaign has told so many lies that I wouldn't believe a Brexiteer if he told me he was standing in front of me.

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Old 24th March 2019, 12:43 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There is no evidence based method by which to determine personal preference.

I disagree completely. There is not just a black or white binary switch when preference comes into play.

Normal scientific evidence based methods can very much help determine ones personal preferences in life.
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Old 24th March 2019, 01:16 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then what is the evidence based method skeptics should use to determine if they should support a second referendum?

Well there is evidence from recent polls to show that amongst the public the Leave vote has decreased by about 5% and the Remain vote has increased by about 5%, so that if we held a referendum now the polls would be predicting a win for Remain by about 53% to 47%. That's evidence of how the public seem to have changed their minds about Brexit.

And you ("Royal you", ie anyone) could ask themselves why there now appeared to be that swing against Brexit, i.e. what sort of evidence have those individuals used to change their mind? And the most obvious thing is that whereas in the weeks before the first referendum, people like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg were telling voters that if we left the EU we would immediately save £39-billion that we could spend on the NHS, now those voters realise that far from receiving £39-billion the UK would actually have to pay £39-billion or more to the EU as a "divorce settlement". Some of those Brexit voters who are now changing their mind (apparently), are probably taking that as "evidence" that they were seriously misled by Farage & Co.

Those same voters may also now be looking at the evidence of Honda closing their UK plant in Swindon, and Nissan moving some production out of the UK, plus dozens of other business who have said they might be forced to reconsider what production they kept in the UK after Brexit (Airbus for example).

So a lot of things like that may be part of the evidence that is causing some former Brexit voters to change their mind.
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Old 24th March 2019, 01:47 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I think point 1 is false. There is secretly a consensus - or a majority at least, for Remain. The problem is that the stupid referendum has cowed MPs into accepting something they don’t want because they might lose their jobs otherwise.

Point 2 is very true. There is absolutely no way that the EU was ever going to let Britain have a deal that was better than what we have now as a member. They cannot possibly be sending the message to other countries “hey, you’ll be better off if you leave”. No Deal is bad for the EU, but it’s not as bad as any deal that says you are better off not in the EU. For some reason, that point seems to have eluded the numbskulls negotiating for Britain.
A "secret" consensus is moot. One of the reason why many MPs want a series of votes is because there are so many ideas as to what is the best way forwards.
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Old 24th March 2019, 01:49 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?
I know of one. Just the one. What he does not get is that the EU is better at negotiating and in a stronger position than the UK and we were always going to come out second best.

It is a ridiculous position to take; how dare they negotiate a better deal for themselves

Therein lies another who does not get negotiations.
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Old 24th March 2019, 01:54 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
Any goods you buy that come from the EU are cheaper because of the EU. You can travel abroad in the EU with minimal documentation. You need a passport at the border between the UK and the rest of the EU (except Ireland) but your drivers license and your car insurance are valid in the EU. Also, Your mobile phone operator cannot fleece you as it used to do when in other EU countries.

Your car is much safer than in the past because of EU standards. Food that you eat is safer because of EU safety standards.

Your employment rights are higher because of EU employment law. For example, most people cannot be made to work more than 48 hours per week because of the EU.

If you are a research scientist, you could be being funded by the EU science budget. If you work for an airline, your company benefits enormously from EU wide agreements on air travel.

You can be sure your Claret comes from Bordeaux, your Parma ham and your Stilton come from the correct regions.

If you want to live and work in Germany, France or even Romania, you can do so thanks to the EU.

There are down sides of course, you cannot drive your workers for 80 hours a week and you cannot call your dry cured ham that you make in a factory outside Rotherham “Parma ham”. Also, you can’t stop Romanians, Germans or French from coming here, taking jobs, paying taxes and improving the cultural diversity of the place.

It should be noted that, when I say “the EU”, as of now that includes the UK. All of the laws and regulations that lead to the things above were agreed in a decision making process in which the British government has huge influence. That influence will be going away in any scenario that is not Remain.
None of that has had any great impact on me, even my job was exempt from the working time directive, I have hardly been abroad and there no European worked where I used to work, or work now.

I get what you say, I am pro EU, my point was the EU does not rule over me as it has little impact directly on me.
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Old 24th March 2019, 01:56 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
I don't know about that, but in any case, May pretty much kneecapped the negotiations right from the start, by imposing the red lines she had unilaterally decided upon.
That is what you get to do when are chief and the minions are squabbling amongst themselves so much, that there is not much point in asking any of them to come up with a workable solution.
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Old 24th March 2019, 01:57 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
It is bizarre. The majority in Parliament seems to know Brexit is a bad idea, but are afraid to say so. There's a strong possibility that a majority of the public has concluded its a bad idea, but asking them is apparently unacceptable. So we blunder towards a Brexit that a handful of little-Englanders think will turn back the clock to make Britain a great power again. The worst part is that a few years down the line we will be going cap in hand to the EU begging to be let back in and we won't be getting any of the special treatment we enjoy now.
All correct.
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Old 24th March 2019, 01:57 PM   #517
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Eight out of every hundred people in the UK have signed the petition to revoke Article 50.

The constituencies with highest percentage participation rates correlates well with large university towns, (and probably a lot of other things as well).

https://petitionmap.unboxedconsultin...etition=241584
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Old 24th March 2019, 02:01 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Eight out of every hundred people in the UK have signed the petition to revoke Article 50.

The constituencies with highest percentage participation rates correlates well with large university towns, (and probably a lot of other things as well).

https://petitionmap.unboxedconsultin...etition=241584
This one lists it in terms of voters:

https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 24th March 2019, 02:05 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
This one lists it in terms of voters:

https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584
Since Scotland voted remain, I am surprised how low down most Scottish constituencies come.
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Old 24th March 2019, 02:07 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Since Scotland voted remain, I am surprised how low down most Scottish constituencies come.
Need to get any of your friends on social media to sign
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OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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