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Old 24th March 2019, 02:37 PM   #521
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5.26 million signatures.
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Old 24th March 2019, 02:43 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
5.26 million signatures.
Yes, my marginal-leave constituency has 12% of voters signing, which is astounding.
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Old 24th March 2019, 02:46 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
This one lists it in terms of voters:

https://www.livefrombrexit.com/petitions/241584
Proud see my constituency at #15 out of 650 there.

Ironic to see the constituencies of arch-Leave supporters like Zac Goldsmith and Kate Hoey in the top 14.
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Old 24th March 2019, 06:30 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Proud see my constituency at #15 out of 650 there.

Ironic to see the constituencies of arch-Leave supporters like Zac Goldsmith and Kate Hoey in the top 14.
Zac Goldsmith, leave supporter, constituency Richmond Park voted 71% Remain. Goldsmith's majority 45. Not 45 hundred, not 45 thousand. Forty.. Five.. Votes..
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Old 25th March 2019, 12:29 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
5.26 million signatures.
Ten hous later it's at 5.35 million, although most of that was night. The growth has stalled, although it still adds enough signatures to demand an official response every hour on average and enough to merit a debate in the parliament every day.

It may reach 6 million.

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Old 25th March 2019, 12:31 AM   #526
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I saw a US news program this morning where they interviewed some folks in the UK about Brexit. Among them was a Remain voter who is now a Leaver because of how unfair the EU has been treating the UK in the negotiations. I was a bit shocked, to say the least.

Is that just a rare bird or fairly common?
Remain voters who opt for Leave or people claiming to having been Remain voters but are now Leavers to make false impressions on reporters and garnish support for what they were always for?

I reckon the first bird is quite a bit rarer than the second.

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Old 25th March 2019, 01:10 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Remain voters who opt for Leave or people claiming to having been Remain voters but are now Leavers to make false impressions on reporters and garnish support for what they were always for?

I reckon the first bird is quite a bit rarer than the second.

McHrozni
A couple of members of Wyld Bird Seed are Tories who were soft Remain voters - they had no love for the EU (believing a lot of the usual nonsense stories about sausages, bananas and the like) but thought that Brexit would be economically damaging.

Once the result was in, they they then believed that the UK would get a great deal because "they need us more than we need them" and have put the blame for not getting said great deal on the EU (for seeking to punish the UK) and Labour (for not backing Theresa May to the hilt).

They're frustrated by the Brexit process, think that Theresa May has made the best of a bad job and now just want to leave the EU.

I suspect that this isn't all that rare.
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Old 25th March 2019, 02:11 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Ten hous later it's at 5.35 million, although most of that was night. The growth has stalled, although it still adds enough signatures to demand an official response every hour on average and enough to merit a debate in the parliament every day.

It may reach 6 million.
I doesn't seem to have "stalled," as much as - unsurprisingly - there being less people signing overnight than during the day. The per-minute average on livefrombrexit.com certainly seems to be picking up again.
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Old 25th March 2019, 02:34 AM   #529
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
A couple of members of Wyld Bird Seed are Tories who were soft Remain voters - they had no love for the EU (believing a lot of the usual nonsense stories about sausages, bananas and the like) but thought that Brexit would be economically damaging.

Once the result was in, they they then believed that the UK would get a great deal because "they need us more than we need them" and have put the blame for not getting said great deal on the EU (for seeking to punish the UK) and Labour (for not backing Theresa May to the hilt).

They're frustrated by the Brexit process, think that Theresa May has made the best of a bad job and now just want to leave the EU.

I suspect that this isn't all that rare.
It requires a peculiar kind of a person, intelligent enough to expect Brexit to be an economic mess but dumb enough to fall for the ridicolous claims about how it's all due to EU seeking to punish UK.
There is a narrow window of IQ where this is possible, I reckon it's about 90-95 range. Lower and you aren't going to expect Brexit to be an economic mess, smarter and you'll see through the lies with ease. Five points of IQ corresponds to 1/3 of 1 standard deviation, a fairly small percentage of population falls in that range to begin with.
Some of them will be convinced of Brexit one way or another due to ideological blinders or being utterly disinterested in politics, people like that will be a small fraction of that range.

It could still amount to a few percentage points of the electorate. Whether or not that is "rare" is up for debate.

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Old 25th March 2019, 02:36 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I doesn't seem to have "stalled," as much as - unsurprisingly - there being less people signing overnight than during the day. The per-minute average on livefrombrexit.com certainly seems to be picking up again.
Sure, but the pace is significantly lower than it was a few days ago. This too is completely expected, it's slowly getting harder and harder to find new people to sign the petition.

It's at 5.4 million now. If the pace from last thursday and friday held it would be well over 6 million. It's nothing to be concerned about, 6 million is achievable, perhaps even 7 million - that's plenty already. If it reached 17 million I intend to eat a pony.

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Old 25th March 2019, 02:51 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It requires a peculiar kind of a person, intelligent enough to expect Brexit to be an economic mess but dumb enough to fall for the ridicolous claims about how it's all due to EU seeking to punish UK.
There is a narrow window of IQ where this is possible, I reckon it's about 90-95 range. Lower and you aren't going to expect Brexit to be an economic mess, smarter and you'll see through the lies with ease. Five points of IQ corresponds to 1/3 of 1 standard deviation, a fairly small percentage of population falls in that range to begin with.
Some of them will be convinced of Brexit one way or another due to ideological blinders or being utterly disinterested in politics, people like that will be a small fraction of that range.

It could still amount to a few percentage points of the electorate. Whether or not that is "rare" is up for debate.

McHrozni
The guys in question are reasonably smart and/or canny - both started off in modest circumstances and went on to be directors of a bank and a large IT service provider.

What they do share is that they are regular readers of the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail, they are of a similar age (65-70) and tend to have an inflated opinion of the UK's importance in the world (an opinion which appears to be the default Conservative Party view.

In other words, they agree that there may be negative consequences following Brexit (hence the soft support for Remain) but remain ideologically opposed to the "European experiment" (or at least the version they have been fed) and think that those negative consequences are likely to be less severe and shorter lived than hard Remainers would lead them to believe.

That said, in a recent "full and frank exchange of views" , another Wyld Bird Seed member was able to articulate how being out of the loop would negatively impact a company like Rolls-Royce Aero Engines. Instead of being highly influential in the EU as regards standards and so on, RR would gradually become a bit of a backwater technologically speaking taking direction from the EU, US and China. In the short term it's likely no big deal but over a decade or two it's likely that they will shrink significantly as Airbus, Boeing and Embraer look elsewhere for engines

As regards the EU punishing the UK, for all their international experience and exposure to other cultures, they remain xenophobes at heart, not in a "ship all the darkies back to where they came from" way but in a more insidious "not really trusting non-English speaking people" way.

Last edited by The Don; 25th March 2019 at 02:53 AM.
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:05 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The guys in question are reasonably smart and/or canny - both started off in modest circumstances and went on to be directors of a bank and a large IT service provider.

What they do share is that they are regular readers of the Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail, they are of a similar age (65-70) and tend to have an inflated opinion of the UK's importance in the world (an opinion which appears to be the default Conservative Party view.

In other words, they agree that there may be negative consequences following Brexit (hence the soft support for Remain) but remain ideologically opposed to the "European experiment" (or at least the version they have been fed) and think that those negative consequences are likely to be less severe and shorter lived than hard Remainers would lead them to believe.

That said, in a recent "full and frank exchange of views" , another Wyld Bird Seed member was able to articulate how being out of the loop would negatively impact a company like Rolls-Royce Aero Engines. Instead of being highly influential in the EU as regards standards and so on, RR would gradually become a bit of a backwater technologically speaking taking direction from the EU, US and China. In the short term it's likely no big deal but over a decade or two it's likely that they will shrink significantly as Airbus, Boeing and Embraer look elsewhere for engines

As regards the EU punishing the UK, for all their international experience and exposure to other cultures, they remain xenophobes at heart, not in a "ship all the darkies back to where they came from" way but in a more insidious "not really trusting non-English speaking people" way.
Intelligence is not a simple numeric stat that is determined on birth by rolling three six sided dice, their sum being your intelligence level. You can be savy in one field and a moron in another, which may well be at play here.

Being an avid reader of Torygraph and Daily Fail lands them squarely in the moron territory in political questions. This may be due to lack of mental capacity or utter disinterest in truth, but their political intelligence is so low that a good business acumen only averages it out to the below average segment.

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Old 25th March 2019, 03:17 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Ten hous later it's at 5.35 million, although most of that was night. The growth has stalled, although it still adds enough signatures to demand an official response every hour on average and enough to merit a debate in the parliament every day.

It may reach 6 million.

McHrozni
Just as a follow-up, in the time between the cited post and this one the petition added "only" 65 thousand signatures in just under 3 hours. This is still a significant number, but not the 100k/hour+ we were seeing before the weekend.

This is nothing to worry about, it is expected now that the low-lying fuit has been picked, but I doubt it will go much higher than 6 million signatures or reach 7+ million. I hope it will, but I doubt it.

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Old 25th March 2019, 03:27 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Just as a follow-up, in the time between the cited post and this one the petition added "only" 65 thousand signatures. This is still a significant number, but not the 100k/hour+ we were seeing before the weekend.

This is nothing to worry about, it's expected, but I doubt it will go much higher than 6 million signatures and it won't reach 7 million. I hope it will, but I doubt it.

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I genuinely think that although the petition gives a clear indication of both the strength and volume of anti-Brexit feeling, it'll make no difference whatsoever to either the process or the outcome.

Brexit has always been about ideology rather than rationality and now both main parties are ideologically bound to Brexit - the Conservatives by their membership and the Labour Party by the dogmatic political beliefs of its leader (which run counter to the members' opinions). Even if the petition were to garner 17 million or 25 million signatures, it would make no difference because any such result would be explained away as being caused by bots and/or scammers.

We're now too close to the 29 March (or 12 April) for there to be any meaningful change. If May is deposed as PM then her successor is almost certain to be even more pro-Brexit. If Jeremy Corbyn is deposed then it'll still be far too late to affect the process.

IMO it'll be a no-deal Brexit, then a change of Conservative Party leadership to install a PM who for whom the no-deal is the preferred outcome. Unfortunately this will mean that they will lead the 2 year transition with all that means in terms of future trade deals and so on
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Old 25th March 2019, 03:41 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I genuinely think that although the petition gives a clear indication of both the strength and volume of anti-Brexit feeling, it'll make no difference whatsoever to either the process or the outcome.
I disagree. It clearly shows the weight of the Bremain movement and makes Brexit that more urgent, if your sole goal is to keep the Tory party together for the time being.

You may not like the implication of that. I know I don't.

Quote:
Brexit has always been about ideology rather than rationality and now both main parties are ideologically bound to Brexit - the Conservatives by their membership and the Labour Party by the dogmatic political beliefs of its leader (which run counter to the members' opinions). Even if the petition were to garner 17 million or 25 million signatures, it would make no difference because any such result would be explained away as being caused by bots and/or scammers.

We're now too close to the 29 March (or 12 April) for there to be any meaningful change. If May is deposed as PM then her successor is almost certain to be even more pro-Brexit. If Jeremy Corbyn is deposed then it'll still be far too late to affect the process.
Maybe, but if the petition reaches that ungodly number, it will show to whomever follows either of those - be it Corbyn, a Labour leader, LibDems or whomever else - a possible way to win the election.

Quote:
IMO it'll be a no-deal Brexit, then a change of Conservative Party leadership to install a PM who for whom the no-deal is the preferred outcome. Unfortunately this will mean that they will lead the 2 year transition with all that means in terms of future trade deals and so on
With a majority of five votes, bound to the DUP, they will lead preciouslly little, I'm afraid. If there is a no-deal Brexit expect a swift change in the PM and a general policy paralysis until a new General Election is called.

There things can go haywire. Perhaps someone more sensible will be put in charge and opt for an extensive realigment with the EU. UK would become what the Tory press claimed UK was as a member of the EU and the question would end.
That would be the final insult to Brexit, but they'll accept they have lost and go on with it, right? They've been saying that for a while now after all.

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Old 25th March 2019, 03:51 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I disagree. It clearly shows the weight of the Bremain movement and makes Brexit that more urgent, if your sole goal is to keep the Tory party together for the time being.

You may not like the implication of that. I know I don't.
Good point, I was only considering the effect of the petition in making Brexit less likely and/or softer - you're right if anything it's likely to make it certain and harder.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Maybe, but if the petition reaches that ungodly number, it will show to whomever follows either of those - be it Corbyn, a Labour leader, LibDems or whomever else - a possible way to win the election.
It won't be Jeremy Corbyn, who has an ideological adherence to Brexit, it would have to be another Labour leadership.

Any talk of the LibDems (or any other third party) winning the election is IMO pure fantasy.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
With a majority of five votes, bound to the DUP, they will lead preciouslly little, I'm afraid. If there is a no-deal Brexit expect a swift change in the PM and a general policy paralysis until a new General Election is called.

There things can go haywire. Perhaps someone more sensible will be put in charge and opt for an extensive realigment with the EU. UK would become what the Tory press claimed UK was as a member of the EU and the question would end.
That would be the final insult to Brexit, but they'll accept they have lost and go on with it, right? They've been saying that for a while now after all.

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The Conservatives are a little bit less precarious than that, Sinn Fein do not take their seats and on most matters they and DUP align politically.

I don't think that the Conservatives would call an early election - once bitten, twice shy and all that. Their only reason to do so would be to strengthen their parliamentary position.
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Old 25th March 2019, 04:07 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Good point, I was only considering the effect of the petition in making Brexit less likely and/or softer - you're right if anything it's likely to make it certain and harder.
Sometimes being right sucks

Quote:
It won't be Jeremy Corbyn, who has an ideological adherence to Brexit, it would have to be another Labour leadership.

Any talk of the LibDems (or any other third party) winning the election is IMO pure fantasy.
This ties down with the scenario below, I'll explain what I mean there.

Quote:
The Conservatives are a little bit less precarious than that, Sinn Fein do not take their seats and on most matters they and DUP align politically.

I don't think that the Conservatives would call an early election - once bitten, twice shy and all that. Their only reason to do so would be to strengthen their parliamentary position.
The problem is the Conservatives do not have capable people in power who might resolve the *********** a no-deal Brexit would be. They only have two years to sort it all out before a next election needs to be called regardless, that's optimistic under a scenario with a clear majority, mandate and a competent PM with a competent cabinet. The most they can do is minimize the damage, but with trade secretaries who, after a year on the job, don't know which port is the most crucial for the country and international secretaries that don't have the idea which international treaties they're breaking with their actions the best you can hope for is they won't inflict further damage on the country.

In that situation the time is ripe for a change in government. Corbyn can remain wedded to Brexit it happened already anyway. All he needs to do is promise a solution to a Tory problem (he helped create) and show some semblance of being able to deliver. That plus any support from other parties who want the damage minimized could be enough to tip them over and result in a swift reestablishment of ties with the EU ... best described as an unequal treaty I suppose, but that's the tax on stupidity.

The kicker is that while Tories may yet have their no-deal Brexit, they're incapable of handling one. Two years is just enough time for the damage to become truly painful to the voter, who may want a change in leadership due to that pain. A Labour-LibDem-SNP coalition could well come off that, in exchange for another referendum in Scotland and perhaps one in Northern Ireland.
This is deep in all plan C territory, but what are you going to do? History won't end with a no-deal Brexit. Something will happen after and that something may yet screw the ERG over through and through.

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Old 25th March 2019, 04:23 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, and the argument is that it is somehow a refusal of democracy to have another vote when the first was flawed, opinion seems to have shifted, and the options are now clearer.

I don't think Parliament should revoke article 50 without having promising another referendum. But another referendum on the choices available - including revoke A50 is the only way to clear the logjam

I think we're setting a dangerous precedent here with the narrative that because "Project Fear said that would happen but people voted for it anyway" or May's alleged "people voted for the pain" that we're discarding holding the winners responsible for their promises during campaign and instead accepting that they are 'allowed' to do whatever they want provided someone else warned us they were lying to us. If Labour win the next election on a relatively moderate manifesto, will Leave voters be happy for them to implement every looney left scare story plan that the tabloids and serial liars like Boris make up in the run up to the ballot because "it's what people voted for"?
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:14 AM   #539
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Brexit: Cabinet ministers wage open war as MPs threatened with general election if they defy Theresa May
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Brexit: EU says it has completed its no-deal preparations
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:15 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
We're now too close to the 29 March (or 12 April) for there to be any meaningful change.
Is 12th April a certainty now?

We're too close to get a decent deal cobbled together, but it's not too late for the Government to see sense and stop Brexit altogether. Not that I'm holding too much hope.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:32 AM   #541
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12th is a certainty if Meaningful Vote 3: Ragnarok is rejected this week (as seems likely). Realistically, IMO, it's then No Deal or revocation. Probably no deal, sadly.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:34 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Well there is evidence from recent polls to show that amongst the public the Leave vote has decreased by about 5% and the Remain vote has increased by about 5%, so that if we held a referendum now the polls would be predicting a win for Remain by about 53% to 47%. That's evidence of how the public seem to have changed their minds about Brexit.

And you ("Royal you", ie anyone) could ask themselves why there now appeared to be that swing against Brexit, i.e. what sort of evidence have those individuals used to change their mind? And the most obvious thing is that whereas in the weeks before the first referendum, people like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg were telling voters that if we left the EU we would immediately save £39-billion that we could spend on the NHS, now those voters realise that far from receiving £39-billion the UK would actually have to pay £39-billion or more to the EU as a "divorce settlement". Some of those Brexit voters who are now changing their mind (apparently), are probably taking that as "evidence" that they were seriously misled by Farage & Co.

Those same voters may also now be looking at the evidence of Honda closing their UK plant in Swindon, and Nissan moving some production out of the UK, plus dozens of other business who have said they might be forced to reconsider what production they kept in the UK after Brexit (Airbus for example).

So a lot of things like that may be part of the evidence that is causing some former Brexit voters to change their mind.
But why is this a case for a second referendum? That is all interesting, but it doesn't argue why their should be another referendum.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:40 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But why is this a case for a second referendum? That is all interesting, but it doesn't argue why their should be another referendum.
why should there be another vote in parliament if the last one was clear?

A decision has no worth on its own: it is only measured by how well it can address the issue.
I'd say that revisiting decisions in light of new facts is an obligation, not an option.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:53 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But why is this a case for a second referendum? That is all interesting, but it doesn't argue why their should be another referendum.
If there is a sufficiently large likelihood that a clear majority is against the UK leaving the EU, then another referendum should be held to determine whether this is indeed the case, otherwise there is a strong possibility that the government will take a course of action that is both economically damaging to the UK and against the will of the majority of the electorate. In this instance, the fact that a petition to revoke article 50 has gained over 5 million signatures, while one to leave the EU with no deal has gainled only half a million, suggests a very real possibility that the majority of the electorate may now oppose leaving the EU.

This of course contains some unspoken assumptions that Bob will no doubt call into question, but for a reaonable human being it should be sufficient explanation.

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Old 25th March 2019, 05:54 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But why is this a case for a second referendum? That is all interesting, but it doesn't argue why their should be another referendum.
Just like how parliament decidedly rejected the deal and no deal so withdrawing article 50 is the only option. Why should there be yet another vote when the only possible course forward has been decided?
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:55 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just like how parliament decidedly rejected the deal and no deal so withdrawing article 50 is the only option. Why should there be yet another vote when the only possible course forward has been decided?
Yeah, why?
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Old 25th March 2019, 06:48 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But why is this a case for a second referendum? That is all interesting, but it doesn't argue why their should be another referendum.
The case for a referendum is that:

1. People were promised things and they voted for them
2. The government is unable to deliver the things people were promised
3. Nobody can agree on what the best next step is as the choices appear to be between doing something stupid for the sake of it or doing something contrary to what the people voted for
4. Given all of the above the only way out of the mess seems to be to ask the people if they REALLY want the government to do something stupid and damaging.
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Old 25th March 2019, 06:57 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The case for a referendum is that:

1. People were promised things and they voted for them
2. The government is unable to deliver the things people were promised
3. Nobody can agree on what the best next step is as the choices appear to be between doing something stupid for the sake of it or doing something contrary to what the people voted for
4. Given all of the above the only way out of the mess seems to be to ask the people if they REALLY want the government to do something stupid and damaging.
You got me on board with every point but the first one. As a lot of people with me in boot camp learned,what the person said will happen and what the contract you signed said are different. Only the actual document matters.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:15 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You got me on board with every point but the first one. As a lot of people with me in boot camp learned,what the person said will happen and what the contract you signed said are different. Only the actual document matters.
Yes, so now the people should be given the chance to sign the contract or not, right?

You don't sign a contract and then have it written.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:23 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yes, so now the people should be given the chance to sign the contract or not, right?

You don't sign a contract and then have it written.
The contract was the text of the referendum. Any promises a politician made outside that text seems irrelevant.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:29 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But why is this a case for a second referendum? That is all interesting, but it doesn't argue why their should be another referendum.

Well when you asked what evidence "sceptics" should use, I thought by "sceptics" you meant the voting people of the UK. But it's only the MPs themselves that are being asked to decide whether they will back Mrs May's current "deal", and if they don't then the government inc. Mrs May say that all MPs will be offered an "Indicative Vote" on up to 6 other options, one of which would be a new referendum ...

... the evidence that might persuade MP's to vote for a new referendum is the same sort of evidence that I described above.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:32 AM   #552
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On a related but different note... can someone tell me what happens to EU citizens who wish to come here to live and work after Brexit day are they still able to during the transition period as normal?

What about under 'no deal'?
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:32 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Well when you asked what evidence "sceptics" should use, I thought by "sceptics" you meant the voting people of the UK. But it's only the MPs themselves that are being asked to decide whether they will back Mrs May's current "deal", and if they don't then the government inc. Mrs May say that all MPs will be offered an "Indicative Vote" on up to 6 other options, one of which would be a new referendum ...

... the evidence that might persuade MP's to vote for a new referendum is the same sort of evidence that I described above.
When I said skeptics, I meant skeptics. If an MP is not a skeptic, I don't care what they will do.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:42 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You got me on board with every point but the first one. As a lot of people with me in boot camp learned,what the person said will happen and what the contract you signed said are different. Only the actual document matters.
The first two points were:

1. People were promised things and they voted for them
2. The government is unable to deliver the things people were promised

and they're inextricably linked. Strictly speaking, the only things on the 'contract' were stay and leave, and the voters signed for leave, so crashing out with no deal would fulfill the terms of that contract.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:46 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The contract was the text of the referendum. Any promises a politician made outside that text seems irrelevant.
Then the referendum was non-binding, because the promises made by politicians to uphold its results seem irrelevant. There is therefore no obligation on politicians to leave the EU.

Glad we sorted that out.

Dave
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:47 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The first two points were:

1. People were promised things and they voted for them
2. The government is unable to deliver the things people were promised

and they're inextricably linked. Strictly speaking, the only things on the 'contract' were stay and leave, and the voters signed for leave, so crashing out with no deal would fulfill the terms of that contract.
This is also my point. If there was an actionable promise beyond stay or leave, that would matter.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:47 AM   #557
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Apropos of the many complaints about EU norms and regulations during the Brexit and other debates, I thought I might pop in with my impression after just finishing a quite largish translation involving the Technical Terms and Conditions for a light rail invitation to tender (ITT).

Light rail vehicles and train sets have a huge project lead time given the wide range of systems onboard a passenger train. Suffice it to say that at least 100 different norms and standards, from international to EU to Spanish to regional ones, all play a part. Red tape? Faceless bureaucrats tripping up valiant shrugging heroes whose only desire is to improve the world by shoving their way to the top? Corrupt?

Hardly. It was patently obvious that the standards allow many players to opt to compete in a known and well-delineated playing field. For something this complex, the alternative would be long, drawn-out negotiations on minutiae, coupled with excess contact between buyers and sellers prior to sale, and many small players locked-out by the cost of such upfront heavy investment. In short, "god" bless the myriad regulations that help make light rail travel in Europe more affordable, safer, less corrupt in purchasing and maintenance, and sufficiently transparent as to be able to identify areas of potential useful innovation.

TL;DR: Brexit sucks, and most of the claims made about the evils of a well-regulated society patently false, if this industry is any example.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:48 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Then the referendum was non-binding, because the promises made by politicians to uphold its results seem irrelevant. There is therefore no obligation on politicians to leave the EU.

Glad we sorted that out.

Dave
The questions are not about what politicians should do. It is about the appropriateness of a second referendum.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:50 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The contract was the text of the referendum. Any promises a politician made outside that text seems irrelevant.

Although it was not stated clearly to the public at the time of the referendum, the legal position was (and still is) that any such public referendum is only "Advisory" and not legally "Binding" upon the government.

At the time of the referendum almost all Leave voters seemed to be under the mistaken belief that if "Leave" was the majority vote, then the UK government simply had no other choice than to leave the EU.

That was, however, actually never the case.

Further to that, as I understand it - Mrs May could not simply go to meet EU leaders, agree some terms for us leaving the EU, and then come back and announce to parliament that she had deal and that we would hence leave the EU on whatever date she had agreed with the EU ... though iirc, that is what she initially tried to do ... and that was then subject to a legal challenge which confirmed that Mrs May must declare all of the details of her "deal" to the HoC and that the MPs must be allowed to vote on whether or not the majority accepted her deal.

So it was never the case that a Leave vote from the UK population could ever automatically cause the UK to exit the EU without all MPs knowing all of the details of the deal and without voting to accept that deal ...

... and as we now know, the MPs have twice rejected Mrs May's deal.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:53 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The questions are not about what politicians should do. It is about the appropriateness of a second referendum.
Then what, in Bob world, are possible conditions in which a second referendum would be appropriate?

(If you feel there are none, or you decline to suggest any, then please stop deliberately wasting everyone's time.)

Dave
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