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Old 25th March 2019, 08:01 AM   #561
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Then the referendum was non-binding, because the promises made by politicians to uphold its results seem irrelevant. There is therefore no obligation on politicians to leave the EU.

Glad we sorted that out.

Dave
The referendum was non binding. There is nothing in law that said the result HAS to be enacted.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:08 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Then what, in Bob world, are possible conditions in which a second referendum would be appropriate?

(If you feel there are none, or you decline to suggest any, then please stop deliberately wasting everyone's time.)

Dave
I asked because I'm curious and don't know. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have asked.

Is there some requirement to only ask questions on issues I already have an answer to?
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:08 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The referendum was non binding. There is nothing in law that said the result HAS to be enacted.
I know that. I was just trying to translate it into Bob.

Dave
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:11 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is there some requirement to only ask questions on issues I already have an answer to?
There is a requirement not to ask questions that you will then reject all possible answers to. It's impolite. So far, you've rejected all the answers offered, on the basis of highly pendantic objections. I'd be interested to know if there is any answer you would not reject, because if there isn't, then you're wasing the time of everyone who responds to you.

Dave
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:37 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
When I said skeptics, I meant skeptics. If an MP is not a skeptic, I don't care what they will do.

Well the answer is the one I have just explained to you.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:44 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But why is this a case for a second referendum? That is all interesting, but it doesn't argue why their should be another referendum.
Because this isn't a damned game. Real people will suffer the effects and in some cases real people may lose their lives because of it. We are not children playing a game who should be held to 'no takeseys backseys' and entire generations of people shouldn't have their options limited just because on one day nearly three years ago the people who were between an arbitrary age and death on that particular day narrowly voted one way.

Leaving the EU is an irreversible step, even if we later rejoin we won't get the same conditions we have now, the version of Leave that the campaigners described (even if they didn't want it in reality) is simply not available, it is not safe to just assume that every leave voter in fact wanted to leave under conditions that the leave campaigners clearly said we would not leave under, it is perfectly reasonable to make sure that the country as it is made up now does want to proceed under the actual circumstances that leaving will entail.

This is real life,not a bloody game, it is too important not to continue to evaluate in the light of actual reality.
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Last edited by P.J. Denyer; 25th March 2019 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:50 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Because this isn't a damned game.


...


This is real life, not a bloody game, it is too important not to continue to evaluate in the light of actual reality.

Bloody well said
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:51 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Then the referendum was non-binding, because the promises made by politicians to uphold its results seem irrelevant. There is therefore no obligation on politicians to leave the EU.

Glad we sorted that out.

Dave

Anyway, nothing promised by David Cameron is now binding, no administration can bind a future administration.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:52 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Anyway, nothing promised by David Cameron is now binding, no administration can bind a future administration.
Yes, that used to be the cornerstone of the British Constitution until Theresa May decided otherwise.

Dave
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:55 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There is a requirement not to ask questions that you will then reject all possible answers to. It's impolite. So far, you've rejected all the answers offered, on the basis of highly pendantic objections. I'd be interested to know if there is any answer you would not reject, because if there isn't, then you're wasing the time of everyone who responds to you.

Dave
I'm going to interrogate every answer, even ones I initially agree with, to make sure they are good.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:59 AM   #571
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Link to a 7 minute Jonathan Pie Youtube video which is absolutely NSFW due to the language involved.

It's a rant about the background to Brexit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IL2XwSkFJQ
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:00 AM   #572
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Exclamation

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Because this isn't a damned game. Real people will suffer the effects and in some cases real people may lose their lives because of it. We are not children playing a game who should be held to 'no takeseys backseys' and entire generations of people shouldn't have their options limited just because on one day nearly three years ago the people who were between an arbitrary age and death on that particular day narrowly voted one way.

Leaving the EU is an irreversible step, even if we later rejoin we won't get the same conditions we have now, the version of Leave that the campaigners described (even if they didn't want it in reality) is simply not available, it is not safe to just assume that every leave voter in fact wanted to leave under conditions that the leave campaigners clearly said we would not leave under, it is perfectly reasonable to make sure that the country as it is made up now does want to proceed under the actual circumstances that leaving will entail.

This is real life,not a bloody game, it is too important not to continue to evaluate in the light of actual reality.
This seems like an emotional appeal, and not a skeptical one.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:04 AM   #573
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Interesting language from TM this afternoon. She's been saying that if Parliament won't accept her deal, and won't countenance leaving without one, then there will have to be a longer extension and we'll have to take part in EU elections. More interesting is that she seems to have forgotten to say that she refuses to delay Brexit beyond the current deadlines. Looks like another shift in stance is about to be quietly slipped under the radar.

Dave
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:07 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yes, that used to be the cornerstone of the British Constitution until Theresa May decided otherwise.

Dave

Along with representational democracy, the primacy of Parliament, not repeatedly calling the same rejected bills etc.

May shows as much respect for Parliament as Guy Fawkes did.


On a side note. There was a caller on Any Answers, Leaver, calling for the dissolution of Parliament and installation of a dictator, her actual words were that she'd like to resurrect Oliver Cromwell.... I thought I recognised the sixty a day voice and 'green wellie' accent, she was from Oxfordshire, the name was right and I'm pretty sure it was who I thought when she went on to describe Jacob Rees-Mogg as basically the only man of honour in Parliament, because the others are 'out for themselves'.

Funnily enough she was the subject of one of my first Quora answers https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-ch...Peter-Denyer-1

And if you're wondering, loaded landowner and well past retirement age. Very well insulated from the effects of this decision.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:08 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The referendum was non binding. There is nothing in law that said the result HAS to be enacted.
Wasn't there some judges somewhere that said that if it was binding it would have been void due to the 'irregularities'?
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:09 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Interesting language from TM this afternoon. She's been saying that if Parliament won't accept her deal, and won't countenance leaving without one, then there will have to be a longer extension and we'll have to take part in EU elections. More interesting is that she seems to have forgotten to say that she refuses to delay Brexit beyond the current deadlines. Looks like another shift in stance is about to be quietly slipped under the radar.

Dave
Presumably it's just rhetoric to frighten Brexiteers into supporting her deal for fear if they do not, there won't be a Brexit at all.

Any longer extension to the Brexit process would in any case require EU approval so it's not something she can offer/threaten (delete as necessary) unilaterally.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:09 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This seems like an emotional appeal, and not a skeptical one.
No its an 'I live in the real world where decisions have consequences so I want to be sure the right decisions are made' response.

This isn't a bloody game.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:10 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Wasn't there some judges somewhere that said that if it was binding it would have been void due to the 'irregularities'?
Apparently, for some reason it seems to have got little or no coverage.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:12 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
No its an 'I live in the real world where decisions have consequences so I want to be sure the right decisions are made' response.

This isn't a bloody game.
And why would someone that uses skepticism think a second referendum ensures the right decisions are made?
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:13 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Presumably it's just rhetoric to frighten Brexiteers into supporting her deal for fear if they do not, there won't be a Brexit at all.
I'm cool with that. The problem for May is that it'll encourage Remainers to vote against her. She's run, yet again, into the problem that she can't scare both sides with contradictory threats at the same time, and as usual she doesn't have a different club to resort to.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Any longer extension to the Brexit process would in any case require EU approval so it's not something she can offer/threaten (delete as necessary) unilaterally.
Yes, but I think the EU would still rather Brexit never happened, and a longer extension would make that more likely. They've made noises suggesting that they'd be prepared to offer a much longer extension provided the UK participates in the May elections.

Dave
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:18 AM   #581
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Regarding the extension to the Brexit date....

Quote:
Another Brexit-supporting Tory MP, Sir Bill Cash, says he is concerned that "no lawful UK authority" has so far consented to the extension of the Article 50 process last week.

The statutory instrument to legally change the date has now been tabled but has not yet been debated, he tells MPs.

In reply, Theresa May says Parliament has "already supported" the decision to extend Article 50 - even if the date set by European leaders last week was different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ost_type=share
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:20 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And why would someone that uses skepticism think a second referendum ensures the right decisions are made?
If a second referendum produces different results then perhaps a third in a couple of years time to confirm either the first or the second.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:24 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And why would someone that uses skepticism think a second referendum ensures the right decisions are made?
Well there's more information out there about the consequences now, so at least it would be a more informed choice for the voters.
For instance, Ireland wasn't even mentioned afaik last time.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:27 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And why would someone that uses skepticism think a second referendum ensures the right decisions are made?
Who are likely to make the better decision?

a - people who have no idea what the EU does or how it works and no idea what it would be like to leave

b - people who have a reasonable knowledge of what the EU does and how it works and have a good idea what it would be like to leave

The first referendum was under "a", a second would be under "b".
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:28 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
If a second referendum produces different results then perhaps a third in a couple of years time to confirm either the first or the second.
A second referendum may also have a more specific set of options than the first.

The first was essentially "Should we move house Yes/No".

Various suggestions were made about where we could move to and how much it might cost.

Now we're in a position to say "Should we move from our slightly scruffy three bedroom semi to a smaller fixer-upper across town (Theresa May's) deal, or to sleep rough in the park (no-deal)".

It may cause some of those people who thought that they might be moving to beachfront property, city penthouses or stately homes for the same price or cheaper than our current mortgage to rethink their choice.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:29 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Who are likely to make the better decision?

a - people who have no idea what the EU does or how it works and no idea what it would be like to leave

b - people who have a reasonable knowledge of what the EU does and how it works and have a good idea what it would be like to leave

The first referendum was under "a", a second would be under "b".
Then why have a referendum? How about limiting the decision to a known group with reasonable knowledge?
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:30 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Well there's more information out there about the consequences now, so at least it would be a more informed choice for the voters.
For instance, Ireland wasn't even mentioned afaik last time.
Ireland was repeatedly mentioned by experts wheeled out by the Remain campaign but any concerns about the Irish border and/or Good Friday Agreement were handwaved away as being part of "Project Fear" - as was anything that suggested that there may be negative consequences of Brexit.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:32 AM   #588
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Theresa May has withdrawn her MV3 so we now have two weeks to come up with a plan or else its game over.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:36 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Theresa May has withdrawn her MV3 so we now have two weeks to come up with a plan or else its game over.
... or four days unless they manage to pass the necessary statutory instrument(s).

Either way IMO no deal is still a nailed-on certainty whether it's in four days or two weeks


edited to add.....

She's maybe going to try for MV3 again later this week


edited again to add....

The statutory instrument to change Brexit date will be brought to the house on Wednesday

Quote:
Conservative MP Simon Hoare asks when the secondary legislation needed to change the 29 March Brexit date will be put before MPs to vote on.

After checking, Theresa May says the statutory instrument will be put before the House on Wednesday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ost_type=share

What chance of it not passing ?

Last edited by The Don; 25th March 2019 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:39 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then why have a referendum? How about limiting the decision to a known group with reasonable knowledge?
That's the whole idea of representative democracy. Unfortunately, the PM has decided that the UK may not be governed by representative democracy on this one point. The result seems to be that it cannot be governed at all.

Dave
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:53 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Either way IMO no deal is still a nailed-on certainty whether it's in four days or two weeks
Theresa May this very afternoon: “unless this House agrees to it no deal will not happen”.

So that's all right then. We all know that when TM says something won't happen, it definitely won't happen.

Dave

ETA: Conservative MP Martin Vickers says indicative votes on alternative Brexit options would be "a complete waste of time", resulting in TM replying "Why didn't you say so earlier? I'd have tried them weeks ago if I'd known."
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Last edited by Dave Rogers; 25th March 2019 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:00 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then why have a referendum? How about limiting the decision to a known group with reasonable knowledge?
That would be the EU negotiating team.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:11 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Then the referendum was non-binding, because the promises made by politicians to uphold its results seem irrelevant. There is therefore no obligation on politicians to leave the EU.

Glad we sorted that out.

Dave
Don't forget that Bob sees the world through the filter of his libertarianism.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:15 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
No its an 'I live in the real world where decisions have consequences so I want to be sure the right decisions are made' response.

This isn't a bloody game.
Libertarians are only interested in the theory, not the real world consequences, as people aren't generally stupid enough to implement libertarianism.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:16 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
... or four days unless they manage to pass the necessary statutory instrument(s).
The line from TM is that the EU agreement applies anyway whether Parliament passes the SI or not..
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:17 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Theresa May has withdrawn her MV3 so we now have two weeks to come up with a plan or else its game over.
Ah, March the 15th again.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:18 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
That's the whole idea of representative democracy. Unfortunately, the PM has decided that the UK may not be governed by representative democracy on this one point. The result seems to be that it cannot be governed at all.

Dave
Is this a good time to bring up the Citizen's Assembly idea agin?
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:19 AM   #598
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So TM says:

1. We can't have her deal because it's been rejected
2. We can't have no deal because it's been rejected
3. She won't revoke A50
4. She won't bring alternative proposals to the house because the EU might not agree to them and/or Parliament might like some of them.

I think she's given up now.
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:19 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Interesting language from TM this afternoon. She's been saying that if Parliament won't accept her deal, and won't countenance leaving without one, then there will have to be a longer extension and we'll have to take part in EU elections. More interesting is that she seems to have forgotten to say that she refuses to delay Brexit beyond the current deadlines. Looks like another shift in stance is about to be quietly slipped under the radar.

Dave

What she also said is that although she is going to produce the "secondary legistaltion" that will remove the 29th March from UK law as our defauult Brexit date, that date has no legal power any more anyway because it was overwritten last week by the EU agreement which changed that date to 12th April (so even if she did not change UK law for 29th March exit, that exit could never happen on that date anyway).
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:19 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The line from TM is that the EU agreement applies anyway whether Parliament passes the SI or not..
Time to get the courts involved. Again...
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