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Old 20th March 2019, 02:58 PM   #161
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And France has said they will veto the extension...
Let's face it;France and the UK just basically don't like each other.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:00 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Allegedly Corbyn walked out of the opposition leaders' meeting with the PM, as the Independent Group was represented, and he doesn't consider them to be part of the opposition.
And that is the really bad part:Corbyn would probably be as bad as May.Incredibly petty.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:03 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Jesus. May has just said that the House of Commons has rejected no-deal, Labour's deal and a customs union, so they're all definitely off the table, and then gone on to ask MP's to back her deal. She has not the slightest vestige of either consistency or self-awareness.

Dave
I think Churchill's definition of insanity might come into play: It's doing the exact same thing in the exact same way under the exact same conditions and expect a different result.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:05 PM   #164
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The only hope now is we can convince TM she's foreign and she will deport herself.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:07 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There might be light collateral damage and some good may be thrown out with the bad, but not a one of these MPs should be re-elected. Not one. Clear the ******* house and have a new lot.
Maybe giving rank and file party members a bigger role in picking candidates might help. I have never liked the system of basically allowing party bosses to pretty much pick the candidates.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:16 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Maybe giving rank and file party members a bigger role in picking candidates might help. I have never liked the system of basically allowing party bosses to pretty much pick the candidates.
From the Australian experience where both methods are in use, it doesn't make much difference. The party bosses tend to pick party hacks, the local branches tend to pick local hacks.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:32 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
The world will not forget those who have been dumb and arrogant.
Yes it will be hard to forget Brexiters.

Last edited by Hungry81; 20th March 2019 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:34 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
The YT link for anyone who needs it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zC6c9gZ-is
Thank you for this link, This is The End (one sees Theresa May showing up at about 43:50 for a statement in this video). She's basically blaming parliament for all the trouble, and she doesn't say a single word of blame about Jean-Claude Juncker, Donald Tusk, Michel Barnier and the other European leaders. I believe this might indicate a certain lack of lucidity on her part.

I have also always found it a little strange that she seems to have become so passionately pro-Brexit after the referendum which, after all, was won by "Leave" with only a tiny majority of not even 52%, even though she personally chose "Remain". Respecting the people's choice is one thing (and this may indeed be important in a democracy). But avoiding possible economic catastrophe, and a lot of trouble of various kinds is another priority that an important leader like her cannot just ignore and forget. She has tried to behave responsibly by agreeing a deal with the EU, which (unfortunately) might potentially break up her country, but she still doesn't seem to realize that this could be a serious problem. It's always the parliament's fault ...
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:38 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You only get one shot at a50.
If it is withdrawn we can't re-apply.
That surely must be nonsense? If Art 50 is revoked, it can be instigated again in the future.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:40 PM   #170
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One of the indicators of whether someone is for or against Brexit is whether they believe the lie on the bus about 350 million a day. The average number who did believe it was 42% at the time of the referendum, with Leavers twice as likely to believe it as Remainers. Unfortunately for the prospects of a second referendum, the numbers still believing it are pretty much unchanged, at 42%.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:42 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And France has said they will veto the extension...
They would, wouldn't they?

Cue the Spanish holding Gibraltar to ransom.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:44 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
And the President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, has stated that the EU will only grant a short extension if MP's pass a Brexit deal.

...whilst they all sat back laughing mirthfully and slapping their thighs at the thought of such high comedy.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:46 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
“Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle. "That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed. "It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.” - Joseph Heller
Heh! Ninja-ed.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:46 PM   #174
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The French will never forgive the British for Traflagar and Waterloo. Only explanation.
What is interesting is how often France vetoed British membership in the Common Market until pressure from other members sort of forced them to let Britian in.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:47 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The only hope now is we can convince TM she's foreign and she will deport herself.
Who the hell would want her though?
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:49 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Allegedly Corbyn walked out of the opposition leaders' meeting with the PM, as the Independent Group was represented, and he doesn't consider them to be part of the opposition.
May was undermining Corbyn when she invited Ummana (sp_?) as he is not the leader of a political party and TIG is not a registered political party.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:51 PM   #177
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I think May's appeal to the people over the heads of parliament is a really lame attempt to use Trumpian tactics. It is not going to work.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:52 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think Churchill's definition of insanity might come into play: It's doing the exact same thing in the exact same way under the exact same conditions and expect a different result.

It's Freud's definition of neuroticism. May is certainly neurotic: persisting in behaviours she knows do not work but cannot restrain herself.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:54 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
May was undermining Corbyn when she invited Ummana (sp_?) as he is not the leader of a political party and TIG is not a registered political party.
Nice attempt to excuse Corbyn's childish behavior. he damaged himself quite a bit with that stunt. Corbyn does a great job of undeerminng his own credibtility without May getting involved.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:59 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The only hope now is we can convince TM she's foreign and she will deport herself.
Newsthump started a petition to have her deported on the grounds that her continued presence in the country was inconducive to the national good.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:59 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think May's appeal to the people over the heads of parliament is a really lame attempt to use Trumpian tactics. It is not going to work.
She has definitely copied the 'let's stand in front of a podium and make out there's to be an address to the nation Churchill-style' from Trump. I knew straight away it would be delayed about half an hour with BBC's Ben Brown bobbing about at the door of No. 10 Downing Street trying to drum up some suspense - as May intended - and that as usual it would be an complete non sequitur of no substance.

You could see it in May's demeanour. Huh, you thought I was going to announce my resignation or a general election, idiots. Wrong again! Blah blah blah. A few meaningless soundbites, Huff of the shoulders. Turn and walk off pronto.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:04 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Nice attempt to excuse Corbyn's childish behavior. he damaged himself quite a bit with that stunt. Corbyn does a great job of undeerminng his own credibtility without May getting involved.
Disagree. As much as I like Ummana (_sp?) he resigned from the Labour Party and now he is presenting himself as Corbyn's equal, only invited by May to wind up Jeremy for a laugh.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:13 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...whilst they all sat back laughing mirthfully and slapping their thighs at the thought of such high comedy.
Don't forget that MPs voted about a week ago to request a delay to Brexit:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47576813.

They also rejected the UK leaving the EU without a deal by 321 to 278 votes.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:20 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don’t see any offer of a long extension from him. The suggestion of a short extension doesn’t look like an inclusive set of options, but an exclusive one. In other words: it’s the deal we offered you or no deal.
No surprise there. From the EU POV there has never been more than those two options on the table: Mrs May and Mr Barnier's deal or no deal. And unsurprisingly neither the various House of Commons votes nor the better deal that Mr Corbyn made with himself (or Mrs May last minute requests) modified that POV.

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Old 20th March 2019, 04:27 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
No surprise there. From the EU POV there has never been more than those two options on the table: Mrs May and Mr Barnier's deal or no deal. And unsurprisingly neither the various House of Commons votes nor the better deal that Mr Corbyn made with himself (or Mrs May last minute requests) modified that POV.
They knew May was desperate to get a Brexit deal through at any price, as was her mandate, and thus had the upper hand. They made her accept a defective weak deal rather than go back empty handed.

The 'stupid woman' - as Dominic Grieve once astutely called her - is too vain to admit she has sold the country short and has been too untalented as a leader to inspire anybody except the likes of Stephen Barclay and lick spittle Michael Gove.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:29 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think May's appeal to the people over the heads of parliament is a really lame attempt to use Trumpian tactics. It is not going to work.
May has to be desperate or deluded to try an appeal to popularity
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:52 PM   #187
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Even the Merkel lackeys at SPIEGEL are now writing that before the 29th, either UK has to accept the deal or May has to resign, new UK elections be called and the UK has to take part in the upcoming EU elections late May. Otherwise, it's good bye without flowers.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:53 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They knew May was desperate to get a Brexit deal through at any price, as was her mandate, and thus had the upper hand. They made her accept a defective weak deal rather than go back empty handed.

The 'stupid woman' - as Dominic Grieve once astutely called her - is too vain to admit she has sold the country short and has been too untalented as a leader to inspire anybody except the likes of Stephen Barclay and lick spittle Michael Gove.
In my opinion, she is not completely without merit, because she has been seeking what she calls an "orderly Brexit", and has been maintaining constant dialogue with the EU, thereby trying to protect the people, like she says. But I think she is making a major strategic mistake by putting all the blame on the poor British parliament. During her next meeting in Brussels, she should bang on the table, and finally demand a proper deal, approvable by her parliament, for example with a time-limited backstop (though it is perhaps a little hard for a lady to do such a thing - the banging part).
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Old 20th March 2019, 05:25 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
May has to be desperate or deluded to try an appeal to popularity
The Parliament is probably very unpopular right now, but May is deluded in thinking she is any more popular.
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Old 20th March 2019, 05:27 PM   #190
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This whole mess is because the polticians did not want the responsibility of deciding on whether to stay in the EU or not, and tried to pass the buck with the referendum.
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Old 20th March 2019, 06:38 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The French will never forgive the British for Traflagar and Waterloo. Only explanation.

<snip>

Yeah. And the Brits are still a bit irked about that little dust-up in 1066.

Can't really blame them.
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Old 20th March 2019, 06:41 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
<snip>

During her next meeting in Brussels, she should bang on the table, and finally demand a proper deal, approvable by her parliament, for example with a time-limited backstop (though it is perhaps a little hard for a lady to do such a thing - the banging part).

I don't see why.

She's got perfectly good shoes. No need to chance hurting her hand.
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Old 20th March 2019, 10:31 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In my opinion, she is not completely without merit, because she has been seeking what she calls an "orderly Brexit", and has been maintaining constant dialogue with the EU, thereby trying to protect the people, like she says. But I think she is making a major strategic mistake by putting all the blame on the poor British parliament. During her next meeting in Brussels, she should bang on the table, and finally demand a proper deal, approvable by her parliament, for example with a time-limited backstop (though it is perhaps a little hard for a lady to do such a thing - the banging part).
What do you think everybody wanted from her and Brits? Reminder: Portion of Deal (Irish backstop) was May's idea!

We are not responsible fort terminal idiocy of Brits, that they can't agree on anything including what they want...
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Old 20th March 2019, 10:56 PM   #194
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I'll posit the suggestion that May, who was a remainer initially, has been deliberately bolloxing this process so as to make the whole thing fail and fail spectacularly while making the ratbags like Rees-Mogg and Farage the villains of the piece. Not only will the Brexit deadline get extended, that extension will eventually go on indefinitely...on and on...until everyone realises the UK is never ever leaving at all and everyone can go back to where they were before the thing flared up.
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Old 20th March 2019, 11:00 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
During her next meeting in Brussels, she should bang on the table, and finally demand a proper deal, approvable by her parliament, for example with a time-limited backstop (though it is perhaps a little hard for a lady to do such a thing - the banging part).
What do you mean "A proper deal"? Her deal is leaving the EU, we have no say in running it but everything else stays the same. Which parts if that would you change to make it proper that the EU would see table banging as a reason to accept?
There is no problem time limiting the backstop. The problem is what happens when the backstop ends if nothing else is agreed. What is the backstop's backstop? At the moment I think technology and practicality suggests either we carry on as if we were members with no say but all the benefits and obligations (current backstop) or leave with a hard brexit. You really want a hard brexit? What alternatives do you have for a hard brexit when the backstop ends. Remember you need to be specific when you write the agreement about what will happen.
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Old 20th March 2019, 11:01 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Michel H View Post
In my opinion, she is not completely without merit, because she has been seeking what she calls an "orderly Brexit", and has been maintaining constant dialogue with the EU, thereby trying to protect the people, like she says. But I think she is making a major strategic mistake by putting all the blame on the poor British parliament. During her next meeting in Brussels, she should bang on the table, and finally demand a proper deal, approvable by her parliament, for example with a time-limited backstop (though it is perhaps a little hard for a lady to do such a thing - the banging part).
In which case she'll be told (well has been told already), that in that case the UK gets to leave the 29th without a deal.
Because no matter the empty vote in the UK parliament saying they do not want this, the UK already signed the law that mandates this happening.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:03 AM   #197
Norman Alexander
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So not driving the bus over the cliff, but backing it over the cliff while trying not to drive forward.
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Old 21st March 2019, 01:57 AM   #198
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So not driving the bus over the cliff, but backing it over the cliff while trying not to drive forward.
More like parking it right on the edge of the cliff where the cracks are starting to appear, then spinning out the argument on which exit of the car park to drive it out of until the cliff edge collapses.

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Old 21st March 2019, 02:03 AM   #199
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"The government has been described as sick and uncaring by an organisation representing more than 10,000 British nationals in Europe over NHS healthcare plans for pensioners in a no-deal Brexit scenario.

British nationals who have retired to EU countries have reacted with fury to what they describe as an insulting and offensive offer by the government to cover healthcare costs for up to one year if they had applied for or are undergoing treatment before exit day."

Charming. Get diagnosed with any serious illness after no-deal Brexit day and you'd have to return to the UK for treatment, possibly on a regular basis. Smells like Hunt's work, or maybe IDS. Somebody who doesn't give a **** about others. I wonder what ******** dreamt it up?
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Old 21st March 2019, 03:08 AM   #200
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
What do you mean "A proper deal"? Her deal is leaving the EU, we have no say in running it but everything else stays the same. Which parts if that would you change to make it proper that the EU would see table banging as a reason to accept?
There is no problem time limiting the backstop. The problem is what happens when the backstop ends if nothing else is agreed. What is the backstop's backstop? At the moment I think technology and practicality suggests either we carry on as if we were members with no say but all the benefits and obligations (current backstop) or leave with a hard brexit. You really want a hard brexit? What alternatives do you have for a hard brexit when the backstop ends. Remember you need to be specific when you write the agreement about what will happen.
There are options that could be done, but are utterly unacceptable to DUP or British Parliament.

1. The backstop applies to NI only.
2. The backstop can be overturned by a referendum in NI. The referendum must have a 60% treshold to end the backstop, allow ranking of choices and must include Irish reunification as an option.

EU already suggested the first option, but Theresa May, in her infinite* wisdom, declined. I think EU might agree to the second as well, but same problem applies. DUP will never agree to it, no British PM would. There's one more I can think of:

3. Time-limit the backstop to 2100. This kicks the can down the road far enough not to be anyone's problem. It may be acceptable. It's not a good solution, but it might work. The necessary technology should be implementable before that date.

* infinitely small, unless she really is trying to stop Brexit altogether. We'll see in just over a week.

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Last edited by McHrozni; 21st March 2019 at 03:11 AM.
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