ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:25 AM   #2041
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,983
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If you're good at something, don't do it for free:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Speculation rather than evidence - fair enough.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Maybe. Look, I'm trying to help here. Throw potential solutions at the problem, maybe one passes. What else can be done in the sad situation UK has found itself in?
Yes, there's a wide range of potential future approaches but many (or close approximations) have already been tried and failed.


Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It can be negotiated in under two hours. There are only two options to choose from:

1. UK gets the deal with services and financial passporting, but accepts EU regulation.
2. UK doesn't get the said deal.

The same goes for pretty much everything else. Heck, I'd be surprised if it took two hours, if UK could accept the rules of the game. If UK does not accept the rules of the game fifty years are not enough to negotiate anyway.
I think it's already been established that the UK doesn't want to adhere to the rules that would enable it to get a "package" deal so it's a complex bespoke deal.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about those. If UK leaves the EU without a deal no country will be keen on signing much of anything with the UK, out of fear of European retalliation, the deal changing due to the deal with EU and most of all, because no one will trust the UK to keep to their word in the first place. Plus UK lacks skilled negotiators to strike said deals.

Making other deals until the question of Brexit is resolved is the least of your concerns.

McHrozni
I disagree, I think that post a no-deal, the UK will rush to a deal with the US because that's what many of the key Brexiteers want.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:29 AM   #2042
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 46,404
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
This raises a question I have been pondering. May's deal is quite obviously believed by May et. al, to be better than no deal.

Contrarily, that same cohort believe that if May's deal is defeated, somehow no deal is better than the status quo.

How does that work? Absent May's deal, how is no deal better?
Makes the profiting from the whole thing much better and easier for those prepared and with the resources for it.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:33 AM   #2043
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,995
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Speculation rather than evidence - fair enough.
Hence saying "I think", rather than "I know", "I have evidence of" or something of that nature

Quote:
Yes, there's a wide range of potential future approaches but many (or close approximations) have already been tried and failed.
I suspect there will be a referendum at the end. I really didn't think it would take this long though. Corbyn has a lot to answer for here.

Quote:
I think it's already been established that the UK doesn't want to adhere to the rules that would enable it to get a "package" deal so it's a complex bespoke deal.
Yea, it can be made in that context was said in the context of "it is possible to do so". Indeed it is, there is no law of nature preventing UK from accepting rules are for everyone. There are only two possible scenarios though: either UK accepts this fact and the deal can be made in a single afternoon, or UK doesn't accept it, in which case it doesn't matter if you have hours or decades. The deal can not be made in the latter case.

Quote:
I disagree, I think that post a no-deal, the UK will rush to a deal with the US because that's what many of the key Brexiteers want.
Sure. It takes at least two to make a deal though. Pelosi already ruled out any deal with UK unless the Irish border question is solved. You need her to have USA ratify any deal. Plus Trumps' offer was a tad, how to put it gently ... it made UK a colony of USA. Rushing to make that deal, even if it were possible, would be a disaster for the UK. Brexiteers would be hard-pressed to support it, retarded though they may be.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:38 AM   #2044
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,983
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Hence saying "I think", rather than "I know", "I have evidence of" or something of that nature
Actually what you said was:

Quote:
I'm reasonably certain the money for Nigel Farage is sourced from the Kremlin. That would count as treason, right?
I hope you can appreciate why I came to the mistaken conclusion that you had some evidence to make you reasonably certain
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:38 AM   #2045
ohms
Graduate Poster
 
ohms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,129
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
British Steel has entered insolvency.

This is clearly Brexit-related, and it won't be Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage or Jacob Rees-Mogg who lose their jobs over it.
The government says that they can't nationalise/finance British Steel due to EU state aid rules but there could be a case to provide backing under Article 346.
__________________
Long time lurker
ohms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:42 AM   #2046
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,983
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I suspect there will be a referendum at the end. I really didn't think it would take this long though. Corbyn has a lot to answer for here.
I don't share your optimism. The Conservatives are dead set against a referendum, Labour is lukewarm and in any case, there's no certainty that Remain would be one of the options.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yea, it can be made in that context was said in the context of "it is possible to do so". Indeed it is, there is no law of nature preventing UK from accepting rules are for everyone. There are only two possible scenarios though: either UK accepts this fact and the deal can be made in a single afternoon, or UK doesn't accept it, in which case it doesn't matter if you have hours or decades. The deal can not be made in the latter case.
Sure it's theoretically possible - I think the pantomime of the last couple of years has shown what is likely to happen - years or decades of blundering where the UK doesn't even know what it wants, much less how to get it.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Sure. It takes at least two to make a deal though. Pelosi already ruled out any deal with UK unless the Irish border question is solved. You need her to have USA ratify any deal. Plus Trumps' offer was a tad, how to put it gently ... it made UK a colony of USA. Rushing to make that deal, even if it were possible, would be a disaster for the UK. Brexiteers would be hard-pressed to support it, retarded though they may be.

McHrozni
Of course it would be a disaster, but it's the deal that the Brexiteers want.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:46 AM   #2047
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,995
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I hope you can appreciate why I came to the mistaken conclusion that you had some evidence to make you reasonably certain
Not really, but I'll live

The evidence is circumstantial and not enough to say there is proof. It is enough, however, to say it with a reasonable degree of certainty, which you could still reffer to as speculation and not be wrong.

Here goes:
Alongside statements such as those there is the uncomfortable truth Putin has stooges in right-wing populist (and possibly other fringe) parties all over Europe. Austria is having an early election this September due to that. There is no reason to think his agents haven't approached the ERG, UKIP and others. Leave campaign was financed by shady money, that has been proven. Farage gives me no reason to think that help wasn't welcomed, but this part is speculation.

There are two scenarios, in both Farage is approached with an offer from Russia, I have no doubt this happened. In one option he accepts help and betrayed UK to Russia, in the other he refuses Russian help, but accepts help from a different shady source but keeps spouting Russian propaganda anyway.

I think the first scenario is more likely than the second.

Quote:
Sure it's theoretically possible - I think the pantomime of the last couple of years has shown what is likely to happen - years or decades of blundering where the UK doesn't even know what it wants, much less how to get it.
UK will accept the rules apply to it, don't worry. The only question is whether it will accept that on the threat of impending doom, or as a remedy to the said doom being a tad too unbearable.

Quote:
Of course it would be a disaster, but it's the deal that the Brexiteers want.
No, it's not. Brexiteers want fairies and unicorns and a free winged pony for the barbacue, they call it "WTO Brexit". If they knew what that meant they'd be against it.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 22nd May 2019 at 03:48 AM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:51 AM   #2048
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 28,991
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Plus Trumps' offer was a tad, how to put it gently ... it made UK a colony of USA. Rushing to make that deal, even if it were possible, would be a disaster for the UK. Brexiteers would be hard-pressed to support it, retarded though they may be.
I wish I felt I could hold Brexiteers in as high regard as you do. I think they'd fall over themselves to accept it, because they've mentally re-defined national sovereignty to mean non-membership of the EU and nothing else.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:53 AM   #2049
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
BBC News: European elections 2019 - Expats in France fear postal votes will not count

"British expats in France might not get a vote in Thursday's European elections because their postal voting forms have arrived late, or not at all.

The BBC found some local councils used a postal service called Adare SEC, rather than Royal Mail, to send them.

Envelopes seen by the BBC indicate they were sent via the Netherlands.

Voters must have their papers back in the UK by election day. Adare SEC said all ballots were posted "in line with the election and council timetables".

The company insisted they had used "reputable mail handlers" whose job it was to "assess the best route through other European countries before the mail arrives at the final destination".

The UK will go to the polls on Thursday, between 07:00 BST and 22:00 BST.

Expat voters who want to participate in European elections can register in advance to have a postal vote in the British constituency where they or their parents were last registered to vote.

But they must have their completed ballot paper returned to the local electoral returning officer by the time polls close on election day.

It is believed, based on the number of eligible voters, that thousands of Britons living in France could be affected."

Last edited by Information Analyst; 22nd May 2019 at 03:56 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:56 AM   #2050
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
1% of Brexit party supporters want to Remain in the EU. That one is a bit weird
I think it's mostly an anomaly produced by converting rounded percentages to numbers, and then back again. That or a rather perverse form of "protest" voters.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 22nd May 2019 at 04:00 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 04:12 AM   #2051
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,995
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I think it's mostly an anomaly produced by converting rounded percentages to numbers, and then back again. That or a rather perverse form of "protest" voters.
I'd expect the number to be exactly zero and this sort of thing can't happen with a zero

A retarded protest vote? Sure.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 04:14 AM   #2052
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,995
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I wish I felt I could hold Brexiteers in as high regard as you do. I think they'd fall over themselves to accept it, because they've mentally re-defined national sovereignty to mean non-membership of the EU and nothing else.
Yea, but at that point UK would have left the EU already. There is no (or not nearly enough) emotional investment in making a deal, any deal, with the USA as well.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 04:24 AM   #2053
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,890
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I think it's mostly an anomaly produced by converting rounded percentages to numbers, and then back again. That or a rather perverse form of "protest" voters.
You've also got 'people who misunderstood the question' 'people who clicked the wrong thing' and 'people who just answered the questionnaire without reading it' as well as 'people being funny'
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 05:02 AM   #2054
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You've also got 'people who misunderstood the question' 'people who clicked the wrong thing' and 'people who just answered the questionnaire without reading it' as well as 'people being funny'
That said, there are slightly higher numbers overall of No Dealers who are still planning on voting SNP, Green, and Change UK.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 05:28 AM   #2055
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,815
All trade with the EU will have to comply with EU rules. Nothing can be sold in the EU, goods, services, anything, without it complying. It does not matter what trade deal the UK has with the EU, that compliance will have to happen.

The same is true for the USA.

So there are UK companies that have the same good/service to sell, but that good/service differs slightly depending on where it is going, to comply with EU, USA or other regulations.

I do not see why a company that sells pumps to the EU and the USA will incure EU retaliation for continuing to sell post brexit.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 05:46 AM   #2056
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 12,796
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
What's your source for this ? Most accounts I've read is that he's funded by Aaron Banks and US healthcare interests.
...
Wasn't Aaron Banks included in Mueller's investigation?
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 06:28 AM   #2057
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 5,890
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That said, there are slightly higher numbers overall of No Dealers who are still planning on voting SNP, Green, and Change UK.
There are a section of SNP supporters who want independence from both the UK and the EU. So that might explain that bit anyway.

It's kind of funny how this election has become a proxy referendum on the EU anyway because the people being elected won't have a say on Brexit policy.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 07:03 AM   #2058
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,717
Suggestions are being made that the cabinet has turned on May big time and that she might be out by the end of the week. Cue leadership elections. Hopefully someone will stab Boris in the back again and my bet, on Raab, will pay out.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 07:39 AM   #2059
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,496
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The said deal was DOA all along and yet here it is for the fourth time.
I have a mental image of a corpse in a wheelbarrow being brought back for a fourth time, with a false beard and floppy hat disguise and perhaps a little cologne to mask the attention grabbing smell.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 07:43 AM   #2060
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,496
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
… Hopefully someone will stab Boris in the back again and my bet, on Raab, will pay out.
Having thought for so long that everyone was guaranteed to lose from Brexit, here's a tiny sliver of hope to cling to that there might be a silver lining for someone.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 07:55 AM   #2061
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 25,983
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Suggestions are being made that the cabinet has turned on May big time and that she might be out by the end of the week. Cue leadership elections. Hopefully someone will stab Boris in the back again and my bet, on Raab, will pay out.
And a no-deal Brexiting we will go

But glad you might make a few quid
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 08:23 AM   #2062
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 12,796
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8920126.html
Quote:
As US authorities became increasingly concerned about Russian interference in those elections, the “Bad Boys of Brexit”, as Mr Banks dubbed the trio in his 2016 memoir, reportedly emerged as figures of interest to special counsel Robert Mueller, who would for two years investigate the Trump campaign’s ties to Moscow.
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 09:07 AM   #2063
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,604
Quote:
The Brexit Party is set to win more votes than pro-Remain parties combined in the European elections, according to an exclusive Telegraph polling analysis.

Nigel Farage’s new party is polling at an average of 32 per cent which, taken alongside Ukip, puts the pro-Brexit vote at an estimated 35 per cent.

This is set against the collective 26 per cent of the Lib Dems (15 per cent), Greens (seven per cent) and Change UK (four per cent), who all advocate a second referendum and Remain.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...bined-polling/



What the hell? Are you guys throwing the wrong flavour milkshakes at this guy?

I'm trying to process this information. What does this say about the probable outcome of a second referendum?
__________________
Death to Videodrome! Long live the new flesh!

Last edited by Eddie Dane; 22nd May 2019 at 09:08 AM.
Eddie Dane is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 09:22 AM   #2064
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,815
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...bined-polling/



What the hell? Are you guys throwing the wrong flavour milkshakes at this guy?

I'm trying to process this information. What does this say about the probable outcome of a second referendum?
That poll says a second referendum is ever more increasingly unlikely.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 09:23 AM   #2065
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 10,939
Note that the two biggest parties (usually), Labour and Conservative, aren't mentioned. Their positions on Brexit are much more ambiguous than those named, and how many Brexit supporters will stick with them rather than switching to the Brexit party is unclear. So all we can be sure of as far as a 2nd referendum is concerned is that at least 35% of voters still want to leave.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 09:58 AM   #2066
KDLarsen
Illuminator
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,999
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Suggestions are being made that the cabinet has turned on May big time and that she might be out by the end of the week. Cue leadership elections. Hopefully someone will stab Boris in the back again and my bet, on Raab, will pay out.
Things are moving very quickly indeed. May will be adressing the 1922 Committee tonight, and the rumour mills are churning that the 'men in grey suits' are lining up to finish May off tonight.
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 11:01 AM   #2067
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,815
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Note that the two biggest parties (usually), Labour and Conservative, aren't mentioned. Their positions on Brexit are much more ambiguous than those named, and how many Brexit supporters will stick with them rather than switching to the Brexit party is unclear. So all we can be sure of as far as a 2nd referendum is concerned is that at least 35% of voters still want to leave.
They may be people who want to leave, but still vote SNP, Green or Lib Dem because of their other policies.

That no party has formed purely to remain and the parties formed purely to leave have 35% of the vote suggests that despite all the arguments and better knowledge of what Brexit means, there is still strong support to leave.

Ruth Davidson has tweeted; "I believe that if you ask people to make a decision, if you say to people we will enact whatever you decide, then democracy is fundamentally damaged if – at the first opportunity – you insist that vote is held again."

I think that the chances of a second referendum are now nil.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 11:10 AM   #2068
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,491
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Ruth Davidson has tweeted; "I believe that if you ask people to make a decision, if you say to people we will enact whatever you decide, then democracy is fundamentally damaged if – at the first opportunity – you insist that vote is held again."
Gotta love the way that's portrayed.

A better quote would be:

"I believe that if you ask people if they want skittle-pooping rainbow unicorns, if you promise to give them that when they say yes, then democracy is fundamentally damaged if you continue that process after finding out unicorns don't exist. and provide them a horse with a toilet paper roll taped to it's head."
__________________
Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. - Eugene Ionesco

Last edited by Hellbound; 22nd May 2019 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Fixed for more oomph
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 11:33 AM   #2069
KDLarsen
Illuminator
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,999
Andrea Leadsom has resigned as Leader of the House of Commons.
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 11:34 AM   #2070
ctamblyn
Data Ghost
 
ctamblyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Library
Posts: 2,875
Andrea Leadsom has resigned, and has posted her resignation letter on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/st...67480742236160

I've lost count of the resignations at this point.

ETA: Ninja'd!
__________________
Join Team 13232 - Folding@Home
ctamblyn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 11:36 AM   #2071
KDLarsen
Illuminator
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,999
And she won't be the last, a lot of mid-level cabinet ministers threatened to resign en-masse if May insisted on going forward with the WAB.
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 11:39 AM   #2072
ctamblyn
Data Ghost
 
ctamblyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Library
Posts: 2,875
With no Leader of the House, the WAB cannot even be tabled. May's resignation must be soon, I'd have thought. Middle of next week, perhaps?
__________________
Join Team 13232 - Folding@Home
ctamblyn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 11:52 AM   #2073
ctamblyn
Data Ghost
 
ctamblyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Library
Posts: 2,875
Originally Posted by ctamblyn View Post
...
I've lost count of the resignations at this point.
...
Leadsom is 36th, I'm told. Jeepers.
__________________
Join Team 13232 - Folding@Home
ctamblyn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 12:00 PM   #2074
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,815
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Gotta love the way that's portrayed.

A better quote would be:

"I believe that if you ask people if they want skittle-pooping rainbow unicorns, if you promise to give them that when they say yes, then democracy is fundamentally damaged if you continue that process after finding out unicorns don't exist."
The Scots previously voted to not leap into the unknown, despite rainbow unicorn promises. The Indy Referendum glossed over many unknowns, such as EU membership and what currency Scotland would use. There were promises of huge wealth based on oil and Nation funds like Norway.

The Scots again voted against leaping into the unknown with a large majority to remain in the EU.

One issue that was never settled, was how long after a referendum before another one? The answer became, as soon as what was originally voted on becomes substantially different.

Brexit as it is now is very different from how it was being sold at the time of the EU referendum. If Scottish independence meant leaving the EU, that would have likely had a big affect on how people voted.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 12:14 PM   #2075
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,383
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Quote:
The Brexit Party is set to win more votes than pro-Remain parties combined in the European elections, according to an exclusive Telegraph polling analysis.

Nigel Farage’s new party is polling at an average of 32 per cent which, taken alongside Ukip, puts the pro-Brexit vote at an estimated 35 per cent.

This is set against the collective 26 per cent of the Lib Dems (15 per cent), Greens (seven per cent) and Change UK (four per cent), who all advocate a second referendum and Remain.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...bined-polling/

What the hell? Are you guys throwing the wrong flavour milkshakes at this guy?

I'm trying to process this information. What does this say about the probable outcome of a second referendum?
Colour me overly cynical, and obviously all but the opening paragraphs are paywalled (and I ain't registering even for a free view), but the operative words are highlighted. It isn't a new poll, but just the Telegraph saying what they think the actual polls show. The very fact that their graph excludes the SNP and Plaid Cymru says it all.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 22nd May 2019 at 12:17 PM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 01:16 PM   #2076
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,662
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Colour me overly cynical, and obviously all but the opening paragraphs are paywalled (and I ain't registering even for a free view), but the operative words are highlighted. It isn't a new poll, but just the Telegraph saying what they think the actual polls show. The very fact that their graph excludes the SNP and Plaid Cymru says it all.
Originally Posted by ctamblyn View Post
Andrea Leadsom has resigned, and has posted her resignation letter on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/andrealeadsom/st...67480742236160

I've lost count of the resignations at this point.

ETA: Ninja'd!
Good comic timing from her though:

Quote:
I have always maintained that a second referendum would be dangerously divisive
I liked this reply to her, embedded video of her predicting unicorns:


https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/sta...94400315748354

Quote:
This was @AndreaLeadsom's prediction of where Brexit would be by now:

✅ Trade deal with the EU
✅ Rollover of existing trade deals
✅ Out of the EU by Christmas 2018
✅ £10bn a year windfall to allocate
✅ New FTAs with China and India providing 300,000 new jobs on day one
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 01:34 PM   #2077
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 23,454
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Farage has been assaulted whilst on a walk about in Newcastle. It was relatively minor, but it is indicative of the nastiness bubbling away below the surface.

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/nigel-fa...-brexit-party/

I genuinely fear that there could be more serious violence to come.

"politicians not accepting the referendum result have led us to this.”
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 01:44 PM   #2078
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 11,815
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"politicians not accepting the referendum result have led us to this.”
That is one of the reasons why many people are angry.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:34 PM   #2079
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 20,657
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'd be reluctant to throw good money after bad to prop up British Steel, not because I don't think it's a viable business in the long term (I don't know one way or another), or because I'm unsympathetic to the thousands of workers who stand to lose their jobs (I am sympathetic) but rather that it's in the hands of venture capitalists and I'd be very wary of giving them even more government money.

I'm not sure that they wouldn't just spirit this money away and be in exactly the same situation in a few weeks or months time - holding the government, and the workforce to ransom.

A proposed alternative, to nationalise the business, doesn't sound that attractive to me. Giving those same venture capitalists (who, IIRC bought the business for £1 and already have received £100m in government loans ostensibly to cover carbon tax payments) a large sum to take the business off their hands seems to be a green light for others to do the same.

I don't know what the answer is, but Greybull walking away from a failing business with tens of millions doesn't sound like it to me.
Don't forget these are the same 'Venture Capitalists' that owned the Monarch Airline when it collapsed with huge debts.

ETA. One of the plants involved in the British Steel mess is Skinningrove Works just south of Teesside on the . NY coast.

It is a profitable plant, it rolls 'special sections' for one off orders and contracts. It has a big rolling contract to make Track Shoes for Caterpillar.
One of it's two Rolling Mills was brought in after WW1 as 'War Reparations' It was made by Krupp in the 1900's and is still going strong.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 22nd May 2019 at 03:37 PM.
Captain_Swoop is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2019, 10:31 PM   #2080
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 10,995
Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...bined-polling/

What the hell? Are you guys throwing the wrong flavour milkshakes at this guy?

I'm trying to process this information. What does this say about the probable outcome of a second referendum?
Approximately nothing. An overwhelming majority of Labour and Tory voters have an opinion on Brexit too, it's just not strong enough to ditch their parties for someone with a clear stance on the issue. Bremain Tory voters in particular have nowhere to go, unless they ditch most of their other opinions.

Brexit is not the sole issue UK is facing, there are plenty of others. Up to 40% of voters think the other questions are important enough to keep in mind when deciding who to vote for.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:10 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.