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Old 6th May 2019, 09:40 PM   #561
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
People who advocate political violence in reply to political speech are exactly the murderous douchebags they pretend to oppose, in the service of gratifying their perverse politico-sexual urges.
.....because someone who throws an egg at an extreme right/left wing racist douchebag is just exactly the same thing as Lee Harvey Oswald shooting and killing John F Kennedy - "assault is assault is assault"TM and "violence is violence"
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Old 6th May 2019, 10:15 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
There it is again: you want to be able to assault someone, and if they are not injured, you want to be able to walk away scot-free. Doesn't work that way.
Right. You support vigilantism. Got it!
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Old 7th May 2019, 12:35 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's the rub, isn't it? How do you determine who has murderous intent versus being a white power punk who actually doesn't want to kill anyone, anywhere, but adopts a symbol? I can't read their minds...but neither can you.
This problem is what iconography was invented to solve. The symbols he is wearing, and the flag he is carrying - those are speech. Their function is to express very specific ideas. When you're using symbols associated with a very well-known group, you are professing support for that group and its values.

Think about what you say to me in your very next post:

Quote:
There it is again: you want to be able to assault someone, and if they are not injured, you want to be able to walk away scot-free. Doesn't work that way. Which is another point I have been working here. Meanings that you ascribe to symbols or ideology may not be held by them. Take the OP guy. I think he was taking the pseudo intellectual approach, with the nazi junk for pizazz. Stupid, tasteless, and even cruel, but not actually advocating murder.
But you are highly selective in who you apply your world-view axioms to. To you, if I'm okay with throwing an egg at someone I can't complain if the person who got hit chooses to respond by beating me bloody; I initiated "violence" and thus whatever he happens to respond with is really all just more of the same thing that I started. But at the same time, you think someone can wrap themselves in a Nazi flag, wearing symbols that everyone recognizes, and yet can't be fairly accused of actually supporting Nazis unless they expressly, verbally make that connection for themselves. They somehow CAN choose to promote white nationalism, but only the "good" and "non murderous" parts, and they don't have to answer for things that other white nationalists who promote the self-same views and then go and massacre a synagogue, do. They're allowed to assign special meanings to Nazi iconography that override whatever meaning the world at large has already agreed on for those symbols, and when they put themselves in front of the rest of the world, the rest of the world must bend to their definitions.

THAT is what is really not "how it works". The sole function of symbols is to convey a message non-verbally. This isn't some special psychic power - it's symbols' raison d'être, it's why they exist. The Nazi does not NEED to say in so many words that he supports genocide - the point of the symbol is to say that for him. It's a Nazi symbol and that's what Nazism was infamous for, and he has willingly chosen to decorate himself with the symbol that he is fully aware represents that.

And no, "Meanings that you ascribe to symbols or ideology may not be held by them" is wrong. That Nazi symbols represent the Nazi regime is not some eye-of-the-beholder thing that "could go either way"; the meaning of those symbols had been firmly established for a half a century before that dweeb was even born. He doesn't get to choose they mean something new when he's wearing them.

And frankly there's absolutely no evidence suggesting he wants to do that, either - this is purely arbitrary apologia by you on his behalf for some reason; it's the same bizarre magnanimous defensiveness that leads you to say that suggesting a guy who gets arrested for standing on a street corner screaming "(F-WORD) THAT (N-WORD) over and over again at the sky after abusively ranting for 20 minutes at a black motorcyclist who stopped on the road a few doors down his house is most probably racist is unfair and unreasonable, or that it's perfectly common and rational for a completely non-racist white person who happens to get angry with a black man to use racial slurs when expressing his anger. Obviously the people using those words aren't afraid to be called racist, and the guy who's wearing a swastika and carrying a sonnenrad flag is not in the least concerned about people calling him a Nazi - but here you still come to save the day and rescue them from that horrible fate nonetheless.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's the type of neo-nazi I have seen. People who advocate mass killing are far more rare than posters here seem to think, IMHO.
Willing self-identification with Nazism, IS support for the Nazis' unrepentant acts, including mass killing.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Put concretely: people sometimes wear gold crosses. What can you assume about them? That they are Christian? What do Christians believe? Stoning people to death for hundreds of offenses, right? Or might that symbol have more individual meaning, that it is tough for you to glean?

A swastika is obviously more specific. But as I said earlier, I am reminded of Malibu surfer Miki Dora. He wore one for shock value, not because he wanted to gas Jews. I don't think that it always has the definitive meaning that many very understandably see in it.
This guy is not wearing a swastika by accident, or for shock. The flag he's carrying, with its additional, slightly more obscure Nazi and white-nationalist symbols that are still Nazi and white nationalism symbols, are enough evidence of that by themselves. But even if they weren't there, this guy isn't some random nobody who found out one day that swastikas make people mad and has decided to wear them all the time now trying to get a rise out of people. He is heavily involved in white nationalism. A few weeks before his egging, the guy was hanging out an an Adolph Hitler birthday celebration that he personally helped organize.

Quote:
Yesterday, Valle and a collection of activists using pseudonyms announced an event called “Fash Bash” that they say will take place in the Pocono Mountains in Pennsylvania, and streamed on a YouTube channel called “Goyz in da Hood.” The event was first noticed by One Peoples’ Project when Valle posted—and then deleted—an announcement about the event on March 2, 2019. The event coincides with Adolf Hitler’s birthday and is meant to celebrate him. The current event advertisement features Nazi officers in the background and the announcement video displays various symbols, such as the Valknot, that have come to be associated with white supremacism, and features an edited supercut displaying images of Nazi Germany set to techno music.

On the stream, hosts announced that the event would feature Jan Lamprecht from the white supremacist site History Reviewed,and said that at some point during the event the attendees “might go J-Walking,” referring to the practice of street-preaching anti-Semitism. He also announced that the event would feature a book-burning. One host said that they had already put up thousands of dollars to plan this “Fash Bash,” adding that it would take place on one of his friends’ private property, which he noted is not far from the Aryan Nations compound.
Dude's in it deep. Hitler, "the 14 words", all of it. If he's not a "real" neo-Nazi or white nationalist, then there is no such thing at all. When he wears a swastika he's consciously telling you that he hates Jews and would like to see them exterminated.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not so. What I am saying is that you don't read minds, and know what someone thinks. If they cop to it, then you do.
That.
Is.
The.
Entire.
Purpose.
Of.
Wearing.
Universally.
Recognized.
Symbols.
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Last edited by Checkmite; 7th May 2019 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 7th May 2019, 01:15 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Starting to say? They've been saying since Trump was elected. Today a "Nazi" is anybody to the right of Bernie Sanders.

No, not at all.

Quote:
The desire for the political power is determined in this conception by a pre-political character of the people: The collective people creates the state, whose primary task is to serve the people and whose privilege, to be the state of “we the people,” it fulfills.
This reversal of the relationship between the state and the people in the minds of the citizens is the result of successful politicization. In its elementary form, it exists in the reflexive habit of the citizens to think in terms of “us” and “them,” to put every interest into relation with the common good, and to have an unquestioning and unswerving bias for the people and the nation. Then they feel and think as Americans and the cause of the nation is close to their hearts. They find a source of edification and disappointment in the fate of the nation, sharing in its victories and defeats. So they embrace the cause of the nation in their flesh and blood and give it practical feeling. The people see their state-assigned function as their own and constitute themselves as the people, from which “others” are naturally excluded. The concept “alien” belongs here, though not to politically correct language in a democracy. The state maintains and promotes the bad habit of patriotic thinking and feeling, from childhood indoctrination up to the organization of big national events in which the people celebrates itself and enjoys the identity of “I” and “we” that otherwise does not exist in the market economy and its free competition.
Why patriotism can lead to mass murder from higher motives (Ruthless Criticism)

This is why Bernie Sanders voters can decide to vote for Trump instead: Most of them are U.S. American patriots, nationalists, and it very difficult to turn a disappointed nationalist into a national socialist.
Michael Moore, for instance, is so patriotic that even he might make the switch some day ...
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Old 7th May 2019, 02:21 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Right. You support vigilantism. Got it!
Right. You say people are supposed to just stand there and be assaulted and not do anything?

Got it!
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Old 7th May 2019, 02:21 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
.....because someone who throws an egg at an extreme right/left wing racist douchebag is just exactly the same thing as Lee Harvey Oswald shooting and killing John F Kennedy - "assault is assault is assault"TM and "violence is violence"
I don't think anyone's said that. But they're still being violent vigilantes.
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:07 AM   #567
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I've been wondering this for a while.

In addition, I'm wondering how Thermal has determined that we are actually advocating egg throwing, not merely pretending to, just to get a rise out of people.
I mean you have the traditional totally not racist posers like George Wallace who gets so poorly treated in history as a racist when it was all just an act.
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:09 AM   #568
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Or Chicago-style pizza, which is essentially a spicy cheese quiche.
No eggs in it, it is really a casserole not a quiche
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:11 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Maybe the people who think egging is fantastic can sit down together and write up a list of who THEY think should be allowed to be egged and who shouldn't be egged?

I say they as obviously only their opinion counts.

We wouldn't want people to get confused and egg the wrong people again like Scott Morrison
How does this compare to say glitter bombing?
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:31 AM   #570
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Freeze the egg for maximum effect.

It's not violence anyway
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Old 7th May 2019, 03:32 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How does this compare to say glitter bombing?
I have know idea what "glitter bombing" is


If you mean throwing the sparkly tiny pieces of plasticy stuff that floats in the air and think it is the same as throwing a solid object at someones head I think there is no point in trying to explain it to you.

Glitter is pretty much banned now in most places any way as the environmental fun police say when it floats down in the air it ends up in oceans and kills fish

Because you know, unlike a larger solid object it like .... floats when you throw it
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Old 7th May 2019, 04:49 AM   #572
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Even better you can hollow out the egg and fill it full of bleach before you throw it because it's not violence
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Old 7th May 2019, 05:05 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Even better you can hollow out the egg and fill it full of bleach before you throw it because it's not violence
Or acid

But hey

It is just an egg and non violent
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 7th May 2019, 07:04 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Or acid

But hey

It is just an egg and non violent
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I couldn't give a rats if the idiot got hit by a bus, managed to survive, only to be tramped on by a Clydesdale horse, miraculously be grazed and then be hit by the entire AB forward pack who happened to be doing scrum practice just waiting for everything to move out of the way.
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
THE GUY WITH THE FLAG IS RACIST SCUM WHO I WOULDN'T CARE IF HE DIED HORRIBLY.

But please, please, please don't egg him! It's terribly dangerous, the police don't allow it, and I can't stand the sight of yolk!
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Old 7th May 2019, 07:12 AM   #575
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Egg the Nazis! At least when you can't get close enough to punch 'em.

Heck, it should be a holiday. "Egg the Nazi day".
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Old 7th May 2019, 08:15 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This problem is what iconography was invented to solve. The symbols he is wearing, and the flag he is carrying - those are speech. Their function is to express very specific ideas. When you're using symbols associated with a very well-known group, you are professing support for that group and its values.
If you agree to that, sure. Were these swastika wearers polled on their input? Agreed to a universal meaning, did they? Kind of doubt it. I think it represents to them what they interpret it as. Pretty sure they didn't ask for anyone else's agreement on meaning.

There is a reason that they don't straight-up call themselves nazis. They claim to endorse all the garbage, but fall short on the world-dominating political thing and the mass murdering. Hence, neo-nazi or white nationalist. They share enough in common with the original (and long gone) nazis where they retain a bunch of it, including the icons. But the bit about mass murdering is the bit you cling to as justification, and they claim to no longer endorse it. But you have to insist on that, right? If you don't, your justifications start to unravel.



Quote:
Think about what you say to me in your very next post:



But you are highly selective in who you apply your world-view axioms to. To you, if I'm okay with throwing an egg at someone I can't complain if the person who got hit chooses to respond by beating me bloody; I initiated "violence" and thus whatever he happens to respond with is really all just more of the same thing that I started. But at the same time, you think someone can wrap themselves in a Nazi flag, wearing symbols that everyone recognizes, and yet can't be fairly accused of actually supporting Nazis unless they expressly, verbally make that connection for themselves. They somehow CAN choose to promote white nationalism, but only the "good" and "non murderous" parts, and they don't have to answer for things that other white nationalists who promote the self-same views and then go and massacre a synagogue, do. They're allowed to assign special meanings to Nazi iconography that override whatever meaning the world at large has already agreed on for those symbols, and when they put themselves in front of the rest of the world, the rest of the world must bend to their definitions.
Pretty much, yeah. They can adopt a symbol that conveys most of what they think without the butcherous bits, much as a Christian can wear a cross without advocating stoning for adultery.

Quote:
THAT is what is really not "how it works". The sole function of symbols is to convey a message non-verbally. This isn't some special psychic power - it's symbols' raison d'être, it's why they exist. The Nazi does not NEED to say in so many words that he supports genocide - the point of the symbol is to say that for him. It's a Nazi symbol and that's what Nazism was infamous for, and he has willingly chosen to decorate himself with the symbol that he is fully aware represents that.

And no, "Meanings that you ascribe to symbols or ideology may not be held by them" is wrong. That Nazi symbols represent the Nazi regime is not some eye-of-the-beholder thing that "could go either way"; the meaning of those symbols had been firmly established for a half a century before that dweeb was even born. He doesn't get to choose they mean something new when he's wearing them.
Yeah, actually they can. They can say the swastika represents 95% of their ideals, just not the world dominating and killing parts. You don't get to determine what they mean. What do cross-wearers universally mean with their symbol? Serious question. Please do not get vague, either. specify, please, who each and every cross-wearer believes he should kill. Thanks in advance.

Quote:
And frankly there's absolutely no evidence suggesting he wants to do that, either - this is purely arbitrary apologia by you on his behalf for some reason; it's the same bizarre magnanimous defensiveness that leads you to say that suggesting a guy who gets arrested for standing on a street corner screaming "(F-WORD) THAT (N-WORD) over and over again at the sky after abusively ranting for 20 minutes at a black motorcyclist who stopped on the road a few doors down his house is most probably racist is unfair and unreasonable, or that it's perfectly common and rational for a completely non-racist white person who happens to get angry with a black man to use racial slurs when expressing his anger. Obviously the people using those words aren't afraid to be called racist, and the guy who's wearing a swastika and carrying a sonnenrad flag is not in the least concerned about people calling him a Nazi - but here you still come to save the day and rescue them from that horrible fate nonetheless.
Come on, Checkmite. You tipped your hand that you are addressing the arguer, not the argument. You also willfully misrepresent my argument in that thread. I said the guy was incensed about the bikes, and he said so repeatedly. The screaming episode was an hour and a half later, and likely unrelated. This is like the fourth different thread that you've brought that up out of the blue. You are pretty clearly personalizing this. Please stop.

FWIW, I am one of antifa's most ardent supporters on the forum. How do you reconcile this with your repeated suggestion that I am a nazi apologist? Are you assuming a split personality or something? Do tell. After all, you keep bringing up past threads as a 'gotcha'. Why don't you bring up my arguments advocating punching Spencer, or antifa agitation?

Maybe...just maybe...if you thought for a split second about what I am arguing, a glimmer of understanding might fire up. I end up being devil's advocate for these scum because I am criticizing (generically) your justifications and rationalizing. I find them immensely hypocritical.

Quote:
Willing self-identification with Nazism, IS support for the Nazis' unrepentant acts, including mass killing.
Sez Checkmite. Not everyone agrees. That cross wearer over there going to stone you for eating shrimp?

Quote:
This guy is not wearing a swastika by accident, or for shock. The flag he's carrying, with its additional, slightly more obscure Nazi and white-nationalist symbols that are still Nazi and white nationalism symbols, are enough evidence of that by themselves. But even if they weren't there, this guy isn't some random nobody who found out one day that swastikas make people mad and has decided to wear them all the time now trying to get a rise out of people. He is heavily involved in white nationalism. A few weeks before his egging, the guy was hanging out an an Adolph Hitler birthday celebration that he personally helped organize.



Dude's in it deep. Hitler, "the 14 words", all of it. If he's not a "real" neo-Nazi or white nationalist, then there is no such thing at all. When he wears a swastika he's consciously telling you that he hates Jews and would like to see them exterminated.
Gotta hand it to you; you don't disappoint. Yeah, according to your article, he seems to have been a conservative wearing a MAGA hat who was very publicly attacked over it, got worked over and his face cut up with a broken bottle. It was while he was dancing at a club in NY, not doing nazi stuff, which he was not involved with at the time. Shortly after, he joined (and was kicked out of) the proud boys. Then slid over to alt-right lite, then heavier towards white nationalism.

His attackers seem to have the same mindset as you, that you can attack people because of their symbols (that you declare the meaning of). And lo and behold, it looks like they created their own monster. Took a MAGA boy and turned him into a Hitler supporter. Good thinking. Before you jump up with the correlation v causation argument, consider how heavily you are relying on the same.



Quote:
That.
Is.
The.
Entire.
Purpose.
Of.
Wearing.
Universally.
Recognized.
Symbols.
Sez Checkmite. We'll see how you do with the precise, detailed meaning of each and every cross-wearer.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:08 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
A swastika is obviously more specific. But as I said earlier, I am reminded of Malibu surfer Miki Dora. He wore one for shock value, not because he wanted to gas Jews. I don't think that it always has the definitive meaning that many very understandably see in it.
There are a number of accounts of Pierre Trudeau, eventual Prime Minister of Canada, and father of the current Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, often riding his motorcycle while wearing an old German military helmet. This was during WW2 and in protest of the war and his refusal to serve. Without knowing the details, this act could have easily been seen as supporting the Nazis and I'm sure many Canadians at the time, especially those in support of the war effort, would have been offended by his attire. Today, I image assaulting him would be another example of the far left eating their own.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:11 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
There are a number of accounts of Pierre Trudeau, eventual Prime Minister of Canada, and father of the current Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, often riding his motorcycle while wearing an old German military helmet. This was during WW2 and in protest of the war and his refusal to serve. Without knowing the details, this act could have easily been seen as supporting the Nazis and I'm sure many Canadians at the time, especially those in support of the war effort, would have been offended by his attire. Today, I image assaulting him would be another example of the far left eating their own.
Nonsense this was clearly supporting the Kaiser against the Nazi, after all it was the the Kaiser who created that symbol. Rather a bit different than the swastika really.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:17 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
I don't have my own, I use the conventional ones. Hence a person is NOT a 'nazi' simply because they oppose radical changes in law proposed by liberals/progressives, and 'assault' is pretty much a matter of law, and DOES include throwing eggs at people.
What about when they use Nazi symbols and regalia and use Nazi rhetoric?
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:18 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
That <ignore> list is going to keep growing for a while.
How about engaging with otherposters instead of ignoring them?
What willthat achieve?
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:20 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Today, I image assaulting him would be another example of the far left eating their own.
Quite a stretch to reach this conclusion. Must be a real solid case.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:20 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Sounds like you're saying that anyone who advocates egg-throwing is as bad as anyone who advocates a second Holocaust. That would be pretty stupid, so I hope I'm misreading you. I'll allow you to clarify.
It's all on the same continuum.

Now, the Holocaust was a uniquely Hilterite program. I don't expect that all totalitarians share the Hitlerite ideas of race and lebensraum. Mussolini, for example, was not a fan. What I do expect, however, is that all totalitarians share that same predilection for state violence. If not the Holocaust of Nazi Germany, then the gulags and pogroms of the Soviet Union. The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution of Communist China. The land reform executions of North Vietnam. The murderous legacy of Che Guevara. Etc. That's where the path of political violence leads.

---

Remember, it wasn't the Nazi's speech that got them into power. It was the Nazi's violence. The brownshirts started out as political goons. Their job was to protect party rallies from physical violence by other political parties. Their job was also to use physical violence to break up political rallies of other parties. They also used violence as a tool for voter suppression. The Nazis got into power by suppressing political opposition with literal, bloody violence.

My argument is that in practical terms, the guy who says "we must suppress political speech with violence" has more in common with the Nazis than the guy who displays a swastika in public. The guy who says, "we must suppress Nazi speech with violence" can reassure us that he has more in common with Josef Stalin than with Adolf Hitler, but that's a cold comfort.

Attendees at a Trump campaign rally in California were physically attacked by anti-Trump protestors:

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/viol...ry?id=39576437
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...anders-clinton
https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/polit...ers/index.html
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...381728251.html

You know who else brought violence to political events? Actual Nazis. If we should be concerned that Nazi ideation will lead to Nazi acts, how much more concerned should we be about literal Nazi acts?

I say "Nazi" because that's what we've been focused on. But to me, Nazism is simply a specific example of the general case of statist-totalitarian ideation. The political violence of 1930s Germany was a war between fascists and communists. Both factions had goon squads out in force, using violence to try to shut each other down and suppress the vote. If being compared to Hitler doesn't sit well with you, I won't insist. We've got other comparisons to choose from. Maybe you wear a Che t-shirt instead of a swastika medallion. Suit yourself. To me, you're all on the same road, headed to the same place. Holocaust or Holodomor, it's all ideological mass murder at the end of the line.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:22 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Aaaaahhhh, there it is. You've strapped on your six-guns and have the cheroot dangling from your lips. Metaphorically, of course. We know you are not going to do a damn thing. But you openly support vigilantism, which is that all-important first step. Others have expanded nazism to include Islamaphobes, neo-fascists and others.

Now you have rationalized collateral damage. Your next slips down this slope are a walk in the park. So much easier to get people to abandon their principles than I would have thought. The cookies are over there, on the card table.

Darat and others are tougher. They stick to their principles, even when it hurts to do so. Not you, though. You rolled over easily.



I appreciate your honesty, here. The moral folk do in fact accept responsibility for their actions.



Nope. Actual murdering sociopaths have done that, not the posers. Your obvious flaw is painting everyone with the same brush to justify collateral damage. But we don't have to argue that. You've already advocated it.



Actually, I agree. I think a lot of the edgelords are wearing a swastika as the ultimate counter-culture symbol, without an adult understanding of what it really means. These losers do need to be shaken out of it.

But you don't want to bother. They are just collateral damage for your vigilantism, as you say. Why, what could go wrong?

Welcome.
How do you tell that someone wearing the regalia and displaying the symbols and engaging in Nazi rhetoric doesn't really believe it?
Surely if they don't want the eggs they should avoidlooking and acting like a Nazi?
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:24 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What about when they use Nazi symbols and regalia and use Nazi rhetoric?
In this thread, willful ignorance of nazis has been more commonplace than a liberal application of the term "nazi."

I wonder if that applies to the rest of the world.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:25 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Nonsense this was clearly supporting the Kaiser against the Nazi, after all it was the the Kaiser who created that symbol. Rather a bit different than the swastika really.
Not sure if this is sarcasm and endorsing the point Thermal was making, or missing the point completely. I have not seen anything to suggest he supported the Kaiser against the Nazis, especially given that he went on to become good friends with Fidel Castro. I said wearing the helmet during WW2 could have been seen as supporting the Nazis. I There are still people today who incorrectly believe all German soldiers were members of the Nazi party and there are still people to this day who try to claim P. Trudeau supported the Nazis from this story.

Last edited by Bouncing Bettys; 7th May 2019 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:33 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
Not sure if this is sarcasm and endorsing the point Thermal was making, or missing the point completely.
Body of work: It's both sarcasm and missing the point completely.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:37 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How do you tell that someone wearing the regalia and displaying the symbols and engaging in Nazi rhetoric doesn't really believe it?
Surely if they don't want the eggs they should avoidlooking and acting like a Nazi?
I agree. But the flip side of that reasoning is how do you definitively determine what they do mean by it?

What does a cross wearer mean by his display of that universal icon? More to the point, what range of things might they mean? Ozzy Osbourne likely meant something much different than Pope Francis means.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:39 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Heck, it should be a holiday. "Egg the Nazi day".

It has already been suggested. March 16, National Egg-a-Nazi Day.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:39 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's all on the same continuum.
In the same way that stubbing your toe is on the same continuum as stepping into a giant meat grinder, yeah, it is.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:44 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
In this thread, willful ignorance of nazis has been more commonplace than a liberal application of the term "nazi."

I wonder if that applies to the rest of the world.
Look, no one wants to end up being devil's advocate for these phallicly-challenged neos. But the arguments of our cowboy egging contingent are flawed. Pointing out the flaws often gets maligned to apologism. That's not the argument.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:48 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
... often riding his motorcycle while wearing an old German military helmet.

I have a helmet like that: WWII Style German Padded Motorcycle Half Helmet with Goggles For Biker Pilot Motorcycle Flight Half Helmet
I haven't been egged so far, but then again, I've never worn a Swastika.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:55 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That.
Is.
The.
Entire.
Purpose.
Of.
Wearing.
Universally.
Recognized.
Symbols.
Tell me more about Che Guevara t-shirts and the people who wear them.

Tell me more about the swastika as a universally recognized symbol.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:57 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The risk/reward scorecard for assaulting nazis (not limited to egging) is out of whack.

REWARDS
Tangible
Visceral pleasure of sticking it to a nazi
Stops the nazi from what they're doing at that moment
Debatable
Stops the nazi long term
Deters other nazis

RISKS
Tangible
Normalizes political violence
Violent retaliation
Imperfect targeting -- innocent parties assaulted in chaotic situations
Debatable
Encourages other nazis

It's not even close, unless you're confident these assaults deter other nazis. I don't see how one gains such confidence.

I suspect other posters will think of risks/rewards that don't occur to me.
I guess not.

I'm left wondering what the upside is.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:00 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I guess not.

I'm left wondering what the upside is.
Just a quick add-on:

Reward: makes nazi look publicly foolish, undermining credibility

Risk: establishes persecution and victimhood for free speech, martyrdom

eta: similar to your debatables but more on the nose
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:03 AM   #595
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
In the same way that stubbing your toe is on the same continuum as stepping into a giant meat grinder, yeah, it is.
It can be. Talk to OSHA. A workplace with a lackadaisical approach to uneven flooring and tripping hazards is potentially a workplace with a lackadaisical approach towards guard rails around meat grinders.

But as I understand it, the whole argument for physical assaults on Nazis is that engaging in nazi-like speech is not only on the same continuum as the Holocaust, but it's intolerably close to the Holocaust. So I don't think you get to dismiss political violence as being sufficiently distant from the Holocaust. Quite the opposite. Political violence was incontrovertibly a tool used by the Nazis to seize and consolidate power. Using that tool puts you on the same continuum as the other totalitarians and mass murderers who used that tool. Own it.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:06 AM   #596
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I guess not.

I'm left wondering what the upside is.
I'm going with:

Visceral pleasure of sticking it to a nazi political enemy.

And:

Normalizes political violence, which I think is actually a feature, not a bug, for some proponents who imagine they will emerge as the winners once the conflict erupts.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:13 AM   #597
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Look, no one wants to end up being devil's advocate for these phallicly-challenged neos.
They're not doing it on accident.

There are several posters in this thread objecting to the term "nazi" being applied to those who openly display nazi symbols. That's a PR job.

I'm not saying that anyone who opposes egging is pro-nazi - There is an important moral argument to be had on this issue. But there is some denial in this thread roughly on the same level as arguing that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:15 AM   #598
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No one has addressed Bouncing Bettys point yet, about whether this tactic has been shown to be effective in dealig with nazi types. Or is the argument here that it's more fun/productive to abuse people? You won't win converts in debate, agreed. But exactly what are you trying to accomplish?
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:19 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Political violence was incontrovertibly a tool used by the Nazis to seize and consolidate power. Using that tool puts you on the same continuum as the other totalitarians and mass murderers who used that tool. Own it.
Good thing the US never declared war on Germany. That would have been political violence, and thus, sinking to the level of the Nazis.

Seriously though, you're not making a strong argument by casting this wide net. Start with basic moral principles and work up, rather than this weird attempt at a simple all-or-nothing rule.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:24 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
They're not doing it on accident.

There are several posters in this thread objecting to the term "nazi" being applied to those who openly display nazi symbols. That's a PR job.
There's a lot of equivocation that goes on in the defense of political violence against "nazis". We've seen repeatedly that it's not just literal Nazis and neo-Nazis. The violence is happily extended to suspected Nazis and the supposed Nazi-adjacents. Sometimes just being a Trump supporter is enough to put you on the Approved List for Anti-Nazi Violence.

When pressed, you'll half-assedly retreat to the bastion of "no, no, just the literal card-carrying Nazis!" But as soon as the pressure is off, you'll sally forth to reclaim as much of the "everyone to the right of me" field as you can.

I'll stipulate that someone displaying a swastika in public (in certain contexts) is sufficiently "Nazi" to merit the label as a convenient descriptor. But I won't agree that therefore political violence is justified against him. And I don't expect you to stipulate that someone not obviously displaying Nazi symbols or engaging in Nazi speech is not a proper target of political violence.*

---

*And to be clear, even if you did stipulate that, I'd still condemn you for excusing political violence at all.
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