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Old 7th May 2019, 04:55 PM   #681
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
He could have ended the man's life with that yolk.
She.

And yes, it is concerning when someone can get that close to a sitting Prime Minister during the height of an election campaign. This time it was an egg. Next time it might be a knife. It makes security extremely nervous and decreases our politicians' accessibility to the public, which is not good for democracy.
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Old 7th May 2019, 05:02 PM   #682
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
She.

And yes, it is concerning when someone can get that close to a sitting Prime Minister during the height of an election campaign. This time it was an egg. Next time it might be a knife. It makes security extremely nervous and decreases our politicians' accessibility to the public, which is not good for democracy.
It would be a shame to put more barriers between our polies and us.

There is something endearing about stories like the one told by former Aust PM Paul Keating (1991-1996)
Reporter: You don't talk to ordinary people!

Keating: "Who says I don't? Who says I don't? I mean I see as many people as perhaps anyone in public life could..."

Reporter: How long is it since you've been to Fyshwick Markets?

Keating: "Not long, not long. In fact if you get down to Woollies [supermarket chain] at Manuka on Saturday I'd probably run over you with a trolley as I did a journo recently."
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Old 7th May 2019, 08:40 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
We know what this swastika wearer thinks about his connection with the Nazis because we know about his other Nazi activities.

(The guy we're talking about does though)
The guy we're talking about, Jovi Val, says he's a nazi? Can a brother get a cite on that? Him actually saying he's a nazi, now. No weaseling.

Quote:
That's not actually true; but even if it was this argument is absurd, as addressed below.

The Christian cross doesn't represent advocacy for stoning, though. In fact the figure they worship explicitly said "hey don't do that kind of thing"; so yeah, this argument is a fail.

The symbol means they want people to know they worship Jesus. That's literally it. By your own acknowledgement, the Nazi swastika represents a much more narrow and specific ideology, confined to a much more specific space and time, than the Christian cross does; so this analogy is going to get silly quickly.
Ok. Ozzy Osbourne and Black Sabbath quite famously wore crosses. That was their message? And I think many wear crosses for a variety of reasons, not all to convey that message. The point is that symbols are not as neatly universal as you claim. There is wiggle room.

Quote:
Look, I'll admit, it's partly my fault for allowing you guys to put the focus exclusively on killing and genocide, as if those are the only things that make Nazism/white-nationalism truly repugnant and absent those things there's nothing really all that risible or offensive or threatening about it (i.e., "just someone with an opinion")...
Actually, it was y'all that kept harping on 'nazis who want to kill everyone'.

Quote:
...But that ends now.
You're so butch when you get all cowboy.

Quote:
Genocide was only one part of it. The Nazi atrocities did not begin or end specifically with the mass-murder of the minorities whom they first systematically disenfranchised, segregated, and then concentrated; nor with their overt moves toward "world domination". You find me an American neo-nazi who claims to be against mass killing but still thinks America is the white man's land first and foremost, and the laws and social structure and attitudes should be changed to reflect that, I'll show you a neo-nazi who is still advocating Nazi atrocities. A new white-nationalist regime that stops short of genocide and aggressive military conquest is still something that cannot be freely permitted to happen ever again and needs to be treated like the real threat that it is.
How rousing! So we need to treat it like the real threat it is...by throwing eggs? Color me deflated after your soaring rhetoric.

Quote:
This particular point yes, undisguisedly so.
Yup. And you have your impression of me screwed up. Much like I imagine you would screw up judging others. And that's a hella good reason to not resort to pissant vigilantism. You're just not that good at it.

Quote:
Because you're apologizing for an avowed nazi at the moment; it's not difficult. It's not up to me to reconcile the inconsistencies of your statements; I'm content to simply point them out.
Nope. You are not understanding what you are reading. Again, this is why you should put away those six-guns...well, eggs. You're not understanding well when having a forum debate. How do you think you would fare in an uncontrolled street altercation?

Quote:
Because I never see them. It's great if "some of your best friends are antifa" I guess; if you want to fill us all in on why you advocate punching Spencer but think throwing an egg at this guy is over the line, feel free to do so.
Done so a dozen times in this thread alone. See what I mean about comprehension?

Quote:
But this is the first time I'm aware of such an argument on your part; and saying such things doesn't really constitute a free pass to apologize for this guy anyway, so I'm not sure it's worth your time.
It shows how little you are paying attention and how wrong you get things. This is why I'd rather not have you running all V on us.

Quote:
"You can throw an egg as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" is "immensely hypocritical", gotcha.
Check out what this dude said, referring to Spencer's punch:

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yeah, the guy should be arrested and fined. You're not allowed to just run up and punch people, no matter how much they may be asking for it. The rules is the rules and they apply to everyone.
Now, do you understand that it's against 'the rules' to throw things at people? Kind of assaultish? But ya approve when you like it, and condemn when ya don't. Yeah, that's hypocritical.

And before you say 'but that was a bad old punch! I only cheer for non-violent eggs', please cite relevant egg-excluding 'rules'.


Quote:
No; that's just a list of his public activities. Somebody stepping on his dropped MAGA hat and then getting into it with him when he put his hands on them did not "turn him into a Hitler supporter". The world is not some comic book and this is not his supervillain origin-story. If MAGA people aren't nazis, there's no clear and direct road from the first part to the second part.

But I think you understand that well enough, and realize that this is just a convenient opportunity to stay off the back foot by changing the subject from the fact that yes, this guy very definitely is all-nazi and advocates all of it after all, to HE'S ONLY A NAZI BECAUSE OF YOU.
Well, that's kind of fair. I do think it likely that the attack influenced his thinking, but there was no demonstrable direct causation. His white nationalist involvement did begin right after the attack, though. Hard to see them as unrelated, but conceded.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:26 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The guy we're talking about, Jovi Val, says he's a nazi?
Ya see? Y'all are doing it again.

Let me remind you what Checkmite actually said

"We know what this swastika wearer thinks about his connection with the Nazis because we know about his other Nazi activities."


See if you can spot where you made your mistake... I'll be disappointed if I have to explain it to you.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:38 PM   #685
Thermal
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ya see? Y'all are doing it again.

Let me remind you what Checkmite actually said

"We know what this swastika wearer thinks about his connection with the Nazis because we know about his other Nazi activities."


See if you can spot where you made your mistake... I'll be disappointed if I have to explain it to you.
You think he looks like a nazi, and you think he acts like a nazi =/= he says he's a nazi.

See if you can spot your mistake...i'll be disappointed if I have to explain it to you.

Checkmite makes a lot of claims that turn out to be only in his head. We'll see if this is one.

eta: I said 'there's a reason they don't straight-up call themselves nazis', to which Checkmite responded 'the guy we're talking about does though'. You evidently forgot to read that part. Which was kind of the whole thing.
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:55 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
"NAZI=EVIL!" isn't much of a reasoning.
Did you read this back before you posted it?
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Old 7th May 2019, 09:59 PM   #687
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The guy we're talking about, Jovi Val, says he's a nazi? Can a brother get a cite on that? Him actually saying he's a nazi, now. No weaseling.
Unfortunately not, because nazi videos tend to be taken down by YouTube, so a lot of these figures' explanations of their views are not available anymore.

But see, he's wearing the nazi symbols. It's really up to anyone else to prove that he's only a "95% nazi supporter", and to demonstrate exactly what that 95% is, if they want to make that preposterous defense on his behalf.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
. Ozzy Osbourne and Black Sabbath quite famously wore crosses. That was their message? And I think many wear crosses for a variety of reasons, not all to convey that message. The point is that symbols are not as neatly universal as you claim. There is wiggle room.
You specifically said Christian cross.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
How rousing! So we need to treat it like the real threat it is...by throwing eggs?
LOL. I'm not commanding people to go throw eggs. I'm just okay with that particular tactic. The grander point is not giving Nazis a seat at the table of public discourse, as it were. That's the "treating it like the threat it is" part. If your opted approach is to just chase them away with an egg - as long as you don't hurt them, then "okay". If it's not, then by all means don't. What you should not do is treat their rhetoric with the dignity and equivalence that engaging in earnest debate confers upon it.

What you should definitely not do, more than anything else, is apologize for them and invent excuses on their behalf for what they do or do not believe, especially ones they haven't actually made for themselves, and particularly when your redefinition of their beliefs contradicts their own chosen means of expression.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nope. You are not understanding what you are reading. Again, this is why you should put away those six-guns...well, eggs. You're not understanding well when having a forum debate. How do you think you would fare in an uncontrolled street altercation?
No matter how much you try to force equivocation where none exists, it will never be the case that it is unfair and presumptuous to consider somebody carrying a flag with Nazi symbols on it and wearing a Nazi medallion around their neck a Nazi.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Check out what this dude said, referring to Spencer's punch:

Now, do you understand that it's against 'the rules' to throw things at people? Kind of assaultish? But ya approve when you like it, and condemn when ya don't. Yeah, that's hypocritical.

And before you say 'but that was a bad old punch! I only cheer for non-violent eggs', please cite relevant egg-excluding 'rules'.
Do you understand that I never said egg-throwers can't or shouldn't be arrested? Why don't you go back and find what I had to say about that specific point. It was fairly early in the thread so you shouldn't have to look too long if you start from the beginning.

My reasoning has been very consistent. Yes I know egging comes with legal consequences. It's not the fact that punching people also comes with consequences that makes me object to punching. I've already explained over and over and over and over and over and over again that I think what makes punching nazis wrong is the fact that its point is to cause pain and/or injury, and the reason I don't look down on egging the same way is because it does not, when done as the anti-nazi eggers of late have done it.

If you want to arrest the people with the eggs - be my absolute guest. I never said you couldn't, or implied in the least that you shouldn't.

Somebody already brought this up once; but part of the whole point of civil disobedience, is the willing to be arrested in order to make the point part.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:05 PM   #688
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why are you ignoring what I'm telling you? A war and vigilante, political violence are NOT THE SAME THING.

I think I made it very clear with my egging-versus-the-bombing-of-Dresden example: egging and bombing are extremely different: one is extremely violent, the other one isn't. And you know the difference, you just introduced a new distinction when your focus on violence against Nazis proved to be so damn wrong in the light of WW2.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:06 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Originally Posted by dann View Post
For those of you who understand German, I can recommend Freerk Huisken's book Der demokratische Schoß ist fruchtbar - Das Elend der Kritik am (Neo-)Faschismus (VSA Verlag, 2011). He analyzes the different ways to tackle Nazis. Free online version of the book.
Does he recommend egging?

He doesn't mention egging.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:12 PM   #690
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Before I do, I'd like to share something;



Spoiled for extreme wonton gore. Not since the Zapruder film has such raw violence been caught on film.

I can only recall the words of Herbert Morrison as he witnessed the Hindenburg burst into flames. Oh the humanity.

Great photo! But you miss the point: It wasn't that one! It was the man on the grassy knoll with the hard-boiled egg who really hurt the Nazi!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:12 PM   #691
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Hey look, I found a video from Val's "Fash Bash" that hasn't been deleted yet. I don't see what in the least is Nazi-ish about this. It is absolutely irrational to think these people identify in any way with Nazis.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:19 PM   #692
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
So they aren't the same then? Glad we agree. He also can't be one of those Nazis because there currently are no national governments or state sponsored militaries actively committing genocide and world domination in the name of the Nazi Party or any of the original surviving members.

That's not true. There are still a couple of those Nazis around in 2019: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...free-pensions/
But you seem to find it very important to defend Nazis against the atrocity of egging until they are so powerful the egging is no longer an option: "actively committing genocide." I guess even Christchurch was not enough for you.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:21 PM   #693
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Fair call

And if people throwing eggs don't moan and bitch when they get punched in the face for doing it then all is good

Nobody said it was not a calculated risk. They know what Nazis are capable of. That's why they egg them.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:38 PM   #694
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The injured guy in that article I posted was not a Nazi. I posted it to show that people can be injured by egg throwing.

I guess that mgidm86 wants more video clips of people throwing eggs at each other for fun. And then we can add a couple of videos of people gettin injured by ice skating, bicycling, and snowball fighting.
Hell, let's turn this thread into one exclusively about egg injuries, including salmonella and allergies. And let's not forget that arguments can seriously hurt people's feelings so we should never irresponsibly criticize innocent Nazis until they've taken control of a nation, i.e. until criticism of Nazis has become an actual offense. But, of course, by then we definitely shouldn't criticize Nazis because that would be breaking the law!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:45 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Hey look, I found a video from Val's "Fash Bash" that hasn't been deleted yet. I don't see what in the least is Nazi-ish about this. It is absolutely irrational to think these people identify in any way with Nazis.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

So now you're trying to make cake suspicious?!
I mean, it's just a cake, man! Do you never eat cake? I bet a Nazi cake is chemically indistinguishable from any other cake, you know, sugar, flour, milk ... and maybe even eggs!!!
Seriously, that cake would look very good on any Nazi's face!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:45 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Unfortunately not, because nazi videos tend to be taken down by YouTube, so a lot of these figures' explanations of their views are not available anymore.
To sum up: Checkmite- He says outright he is a Nazi!
Thermal- Really?
Checkmite- Well, no...but I'll vaguely allude that he did.

Remember the Python 'Burn the Witch' skit?

Quote:
But see, he's wearing the nazi symbols. It's really up to anyone else to prove that he's only a "95% nazi supporter", and to demonstrate exactly what that 95% is, if they want to make that preposterous defense on his behalf.
Burn the Witch! See, this is my point with all this arguing: vigilantism is a bad idea. Way too much can go wrong. But I wholeheartedly endorse antifa throwing down at Fash rallys. That is agreed on by both parties, and the mutual nature of it makes me think it's ok to break the law. Still wrong, tho, but all involved know it.

Quote:
You specifically said Christian cross.
Dead ass lie. Never said it. Once, and in a limited context, I talked about a Christian wearing a cross. But I never said Christian cross. Not that it matters, in context. A cross is an almost exclusively Christian symbol. But it frequently represents other meanings, too.

Btw, another stellar example of why I don't want you going Charles Bronson. You are absolutely not a detail guy.

Quote:
LOL. I'm not commanding people to go throw eggs. I'm just okay with that particular tactic. The grander point is not giving Nazis a seat at the table of public discourse, as it were. That's the "treating it like the threat it is" part. If your opted approach is to just chase them away with an egg - as long as you don't hurt them, then "okay". If it's not, then by all means don't. What you should not do is treat their rhetoric with the dignity and equivalence that engaging in earnest debate confers upon it.
Agreed, fully.

Quote:
What you should definitely not do, more than anything else, is apologize for them and invent excuses on their behalf for what they do or do not believe, especially ones they haven't actually made for themselves, and particularly when your redefinition of their beliefs contradicts their own chosen means of expression.
Sidebar: ok, I overplay the devil's advocate card waaaaay too much. Conceded.

Quote:
No matter how much you try to force equivocation where none exists, it will never be the case that it is unfair and presumptuous to consider somebody carrying a flag with Nazi symbols on it and wearing a Nazi medallion around their neck a Nazi.
You can be fully confident in the accuracy of your observations, yes. Looks like a duck and all. What I'm saying you can't do is act extra judiciously on those convictions. Again: eggs today, and rocks tomorrow. there's a hard line there that the good guys agree not to cross. That's how you know you're one of the good guys. And they are not.

Quote:
Do you understand that I never said egg-throwers can't or shouldn't be arrested? Why don't you go back and find what I had to say about that specific point. It was fairly early in the thread so you shouldn't have to look too long if you start from the beginning.

My reasoning has been very consistent. Yes I know egging comes with legal consequences. It's not the fact that punching people also comes with consequences that makes me object to punching. I've already explained over and over and over and over and over and over again that I think what makes punching nazis wrong is the fact that its point is to cause pain and/or injury, and the reason I don't look down on egging the same way is because it does not, when done as the anti-nazi eggers of late have done it.
Again: you are condoning petty assault, and trivializing it. The 'oh, they might get arrested' thing is weak tea after you have accepted acting outside the law, using (very petty) assault. Eggs today...pantsing might be a real knee-slapper, too, and it doesn't hurt either...and off we go.

Quote:
If you want to arrest the people with the eggs - be my absolute guest. I never said you couldn't, or implied in the least that you shouldn't.

Somebody already brought this up once; but part of the whole point of civil disobedience, is the willing to be arrested in order to make the point part.
And what is the aim of this noble civil disobedience? To assault people? The right to street violence (eggs today...)?

Nah, I don't think the cat you are alluding to had that in mind.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:47 PM   #697
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Hell, let's turn this thread into one exclusively about egg injuries, including salmonella and allergies. And let's not forget that arguments can seriously hurt people's feelings so we should never irresponsibly criticize innocent Nazis until they've taken control of a nation, i.e. until criticism of Nazis has become an actual offense.
It's all fun and games until some horrible egg-terrorist chucks an egg at some innocent schmuck who was just carrying a Nazi flag prop from his car to a movie set or something and infects him with salmonella. Then we'll see who's sorry.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:50 PM   #698
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Do you know the circumstances and methods by which the Nazis rose to power?
Did they commit the atrocity of egging innocent people? (I'm just guessing based on what I've read about the inhumanity of egging in this thread, but I guess that even Nazis wouldn't stoop so low.)
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:51 PM   #699
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Hey look, I found a video from Val's "Fash Bash" that hasn't been deleted yet. I don't see what in the least is Nazi-ish about this. It is absolutely irrational to think these people identify in any way with Nazis.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Didn't watch the whole thing because I refuse to give that stuff a view, unless it's necessary. Suffice to say they had the iconography around, and you filled in the rest?

No doubt that they fetishize nazi stuff. I am not confident that they actually want to kill and conquer. I think the distinction is important, but we may have to agree to disagree.

Plus Miki Dora was so totes a Jew-gasser. He loved it.
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Old 7th May 2019, 10:55 PM   #700
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It's all fun and games until some horrible egg-terrorist chucks an egg at some innocent schmuck who was just carrying a Nazi flag prop from his car to a movie set or something and infects him with salmonella. Then we'll see who's sorry.
Or more likely, you chuck eggs at a red hat you see some presumed nazi type wearing...that turns out to really read U.S.M.C....and he wants to have a word with you. Or mistakes someone in your vicinity as the thrower. What a fun prank!

Not so farfetched, considering your accuracy in details of late.
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:10 PM   #701
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Didn't watch the whole thing because I refuse to give that stuff a view, unless it's necessary. Suffice to say they had the iconography around, and you filled in the rest?

No doubt that they fetishize nazi stuff. I am not confident that they actually want to kill and conquer. I think the distinction is important, but we may have to agree to disagree.

Plus Miki Dora was so totes a Jew-gasser. He loved it.
Christ on a bike. What is wrong with you?
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:14 PM   #702
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Christ on a bike. What is wrong with you?
From Jersey. What's your excuse?

Follow from the beginning to see how we got here.

eta: Cliff Notes version: I laughed at posters rationalizing assault, and said if you want to do that, great. Just own it.

They won't own it, just keep making excuses about how a little assault is not really bad.
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:23 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Didn't watch the whole thing because I refuse to give that stuff a view, unless it's necessary. Suffice to say they had the iconography around, and you filled in the rest?

No doubt that they fetishize nazi stuff. I am not confident that they actually want to kill and conquer. I think the distinction is important, but we may have to agree to disagree.

Plus Miki Dora was so totes a Jew-gasser. He loved it.
If he was so totes a Jew-gasser why did he adopt the name of a camp where Jews were never gassed?
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:26 PM   #704
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
If he was so totes a Jew-gasser why did he adopt the name of a camp where Jews were never gassed?
Huh?
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:28 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
To sum up: Checkmite- He says outright he is a Nazi!
Thermal- Really?
Checkmite- Well, no...but I'll vaguely allude that he did.

Remember the Python 'Burn the Witch' skit?

Burn the Witch! See, this is my point with all this arguing: vigilantism is a bad idea.
The primary reason vigilantism against witches was a bad idea because there was no such thing as witches, combined with the fact that the victims specifically denied being witches. Neo-nazis/white nationalists very much do exist, they are open about what they choose to believe, and the atrocities Nazis committed were real too.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Way too much can go wrong. But I wholeheartedly endorse antifa throwing down at Fash rallys.
What is the difference between a "Fash rally" and one guy by himself but still standing on the public sidewalk spewing the same rhetoric and waving the same flags, aside from the number of "Fash"onistas present, that suddenly makes it okay in the former but not in the latter?


Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Dead ass lie. Never said it. Once, and in a limited context, I talked about a Christian wearing a cross. But I never said Christian cross. Not that it matters, in context. A cross is an almost exclusively Christian symbol. But it frequently represents other meanings, too.
In the context of this particular argument, that's prevarication. If the person wearing the nonspecific "cross" pendant is also wearing a "fish symbol" pin on his lapel and a bumper sticker on the back of his car that says "John 14:6", it is completely inane to insist that he can't confidently be identified as a Christian.

A "Japanese Buddhist" likely would not wear a swastika as a pendant (I'm unaware any Buddhist ever wearing swastika pendants in any case, but I'm willing to admit there's a chance); but if he did so, he certainly not be carrying a flag with the Nazi eagle on it at the same time and singing Happy Birthday to a photograph of "Uncle Addy". Val provides far and away plenty enough corroborating iconography to make it very clear that his swastika is intended to invoke a connection with Nazism and absolutely no other, more innocuous use of this symbol. He is not being misidentified. This entire line of objection by you is utterly specious in-context.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Btw, another stellar example of why I don't want you going Charles Bronson. You are absolutely not a detail guy.
I never said I planned to egg anyone. It's hilarious though that you have the pluck to say something like this about me, at the end of an argument that relies entirely on focusing on one specific detail, pointedly removed from all context, while steadfastly refusing to acknowledge the existence or importance of all of the other details surrounding it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You can be fully confident in the accuracy of your observations, yes. Looks like a duck and all. What I'm saying you can't do is act extra judiciously on those convictions. Again: eggs today, and rocks tomorrow.
No, that's "slippery slope", which so many people in this forum seem to forget is a logical fallacy.

We know what allowing white nationalists to propagandize without challenge or resistance leads to, because that actually happened in a documented period of history and we can study the results.

We do not have the same hindsight of history warning us that an occasional egg being thrown at a nazi must turn into "rocks" at some point.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
there's a hard line there that the good guys agree not to cross. That's how you know you're one of the good guys. And they are not.
Yeah the line is firmly between hurting people and not hurting people.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Again: you are condoning petty assault, and trivializing it. The 'oh, they might get arrested' thing is weak tea after you have accepted acting outside the law, using (very petty) assault. Eggs today...pantsing might be a real knee-slapper, too, and it doesn't hurt either...and off we go.
What does the "weak tea" metaphor even mean? If it's an arrestable offense, arrest them. What, if I'm okay with them being arrested after the egging, suddenly an arrest isn't "good enough" or something?

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And what is the aim of this noble civil disobedience? To assault people? The right to street violence (eggs today...)?
To deny Nazis a seat at the ta....you know what, I'm tired of repeating myself. From now on whenever you ask me a question that I've already answered in one of the last half-dozen posts I've made, in some cases multiple times, I'm just going to say "already answered".

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Nah, I don't think the cat you are alluding to had that in mind.
What cat? NOW what on Earth are you talking about?
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:42 PM   #706
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No doubt that they fetishize nazi stuff. I am not confident that they actually want to kill and conquer.
Quick yes-or-no: have you ever encountered, anywhere on the web, the specific phrase "Night of the Rope", and if so, do you know to what it refers?
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Old 7th May 2019, 11:57 PM   #707
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I'm guessing that's not the kind of phrase one would be advised to google when on a government computer network?
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Old 8th May 2019, 12:14 AM   #708
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm guessing that's not the kind of phrase one would be advised to google when on a government computer network?
It's iffy.

To save your search history, I'll fill you in. It is a phrase used among white nationalists, neo-nazis, supremacists, and other self-identified alt-righters to refer to an anticipated day (or period of time if necessary) in the future when the Jews Who Run The Deep State, and all their well-known libtard collaborators (such as Obama, Soros, Clinton, and the rest) are rounded up and finally executed. The term "rope" specifically references hanging as the method of execution of course, but it's not necessarily prescriptive. Far more important is that the Enemy will finally be exposed and killed.

The name itself was chosen to reference a specific event in Nazi Germany, the nacht der langen Messer, or "Night of the Long Knives", an event which took place over a couple of days in summer 1934 in which Hitler's SS and the Gestapo killed all of the leftist and socialist leaders, and other prominent members, of the Nazi Party, as well as prominent anti-nazis outside the party such as former chancellor Kurt von Schleicher. At least some 85 people were killed in this national purge of Hitler's political enemies, with some accounts saying several hundred.
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Old 8th May 2019, 01:24 AM   #709
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So now you're trying to make cake suspicious?!
I mean, it's just a cake, man! Do you never eat cake? I bet a Nazi cake is chemically indistinguishable from any other cake, you know, sugar, flour, milk ... and maybe even eggs!!!
Seriously, that cake would look very good on any Nazi's face!
Except, of course, for the Zyklon B
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Old 8th May 2019, 01:26 AM   #710
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Remember the Python 'Burn the Witch' skit?
Yes I do, and IIRC, and the end of the skit the witch said "Its a fair cop"!
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:14 AM   #711
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Did you read this back before you posted it?
Did you?

Do you understand the underlying problem or not? Read my post #713 below, and then try to insist that "NAZI=BAD" somehow changes those facts. And then tell me that saying that would be much of a thinking process.
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:17 AM   #712
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think I made it very clear with my egging-versus-the-bombing-of-Dresden example: egging and bombing are extremely different: one is extremely violent, the other one isn't.
What does that even matter? We're not discussing war.

Quote:
And you know the difference, you just introduced a new distinction when your focus on violence against Nazis proved to be so damn wrong in the light of WW2.
Proved to be wrong? No, sir. You don't get to pretend that a single data point trumps an entire history of terrible consequences just because that data point happens to be very memorable.

Yes, the Nazis were terrible and to stop their genocidal regime it took a big, big war. But you've got to be able to demonstrate that the so-called "nazis" now are poised to take over the US and go at it again before you suggest we dismantle the rule of law.
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:25 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Nobody said it was not a calculated risk. They know what Nazis are capable of. That's why they egg them.
Here's the problem: humans are capable of those things, Nazi or not. But you know how it starts? Vigilantism and political violence, the very thing you're advocating.

There's no discussion to be had about how bad the Nazis are; they're probably the worst human thing imaginable. But that does not change the fact that, unless you have no other option, engaging in violent acts will not improve the situation.

But go ahead, if you think things are that bad, why don't you volunteer to hunt them down and kill them, for the greater good?
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:51 AM   #714
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I can't believe this is even a topic of conversation.

Nobody gets to assault anybody with impunity.

Throwing eggs at people is assault. So is pouring milkshake over them.


One is either in favour of due process or one is not. Anyone countenancing egg throwing as harmless and warranted because "I didn't like his t-shirt" (and that's what it comes down to) is flat out wrong. And probably a hindrance to whatever cause they think they're championing.

I really can't believe it's even a discussion.
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Old 8th May 2019, 02:52 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I can't believe this is even a topic of conversation.

Nobody gets to assault anybody with impunity.

Throwing eggs at people is assault. So is pouring milkshake over them.


One is either in favour of due process or one is not. Anyone countenancing egg throwing as harmless and warranted because "I didn't like his t-shirt" (and that's what it comes down to) is flat out wrong. And probably a hindrance to whatever cause they think they're championing.

I really can't believe it's even a discussion.
Ah, so you're saying that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Nazi ideology, then?

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Old 8th May 2019, 02:58 AM   #716
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ah, so you're saying that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Nazi ideology, then?





There's nothing fundamentally wrong with 14C Indian symbol of divinity and spirituality either.

I suspect what would really, really annoy those who wear such symbols is being ignored. One does not don nazi regalia and leave the house thinking "I hope I don't attract any attention."
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Old 8th May 2019, 03:05 AM   #717
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ah, so you're saying that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with Nazi ideology, then?

Do you mind pointing out where the poster said this?

As it is getting rather annoying to read posts being twisted

Edit: Ignore this post.

Should have read whole exchange
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Old 8th May 2019, 03:05 AM   #718
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That wasn't vigilante violence. That was a war against an expansive, oppressive, genocidal regime.

You might notice a slight difference, there.

The point of all this is that violence begets violence, so you shouldn't use it lightly, lest you find yourself in a world where street violence is justified and widespread, and the reason for that is that you're just as likely to be a target.
When did resisting nazis with force become morally acceptable?
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Old 8th May 2019, 03:08 AM   #719
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You just compared the politicians the bloke standing with a flag getting egged to a bloke that shot 100 and killed 51 of them?

......Yeah ok.

Meanwhile. Back in reality everyone realises ponderingturtles views meybe be slightly off kilter
Who is the real nazi and how do you know? The shooter has all the hallmarks of the poser 8chan not real nazi you are defending. So how do you know he was a real nazi and not just a mentally ill poser?
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Old 8th May 2019, 03:11 AM   #720
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You do know that the Nazis in Germany didn't start out as a government and they didn't just appear when the war started?

Anyone with Nazi sympathies gets what they deserve.
Yes but it only became acceptable to use force against them after the invasion of poland. That is when they went from being nazi posers to real nazis.
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