ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 10th July 2019, 11:33 PM   #1
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,784
Another dog kills someone - tears his throat open

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...10-p52637.html
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th July 2019, 11:39 PM   #2
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 6,351
Dog should be (if not already, I never read the entire story) destroyed straight away. Nobody deserves to die like this but then again no dog deserves to be cooped up all day never getting walked and exercised. I feel this lack of proper care may have contributed to the dogs mental state.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 12:26 AM   #3
Venom
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 2,519
It'd just be better if certain breeds didn't exist. Stop crossing em.
Venom is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 06:40 AM   #4
Abooga
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 748
American Staffordshire terrier. It´s always the same breeds. They should be banned.
Abooga is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 10:24 AM   #5
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 6,351
Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
American Staffordshire terrier. It´s always the same breeds. They should be banned.
Just be glad Baron is no longer around.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 10:43 AM   #6
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,178
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just be glad Baron is no longer around.
Yeah, this forum would be ideal if nobody ever posted a controversial opinion. Unicorns, rainbows and sunshiny faces everywhere. We could discuss the weather 24/7. New members would be signing up by the thousands.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 10:54 AM   #7
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 82,784
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Really amazing that I knew the breed of the dog before even clicking.

I'm sure baron must be fuming, somewhere.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 10:54 AM   #8
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,400
It's sunny today.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 10:57 AM   #9
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 74,530
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Dog should be (if not already, I never read the entire story) destroyed straight away. Nobody deserves to die like this but then again no dog deserves to be cooped up all day never getting walked and exercised. I feel this lack of proper care may have contributed to the dogs mental state.
From the link:
Quote:
It was eventually secured and put down on the night of the attack.
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 11:31 AM   #10
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 512
Sad event. I like pit's but don't get the allure of owning them as a family pet. Don't think people should own pet's that they can't defend themselves against should an animal act like.. an animal.
rdwight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 11:56 AM   #11
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 15,837
Does it answer to the name 'Baron'? <v d rvvvvvvvf>
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 12:06 PM   #12
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,825
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Really amazing that I knew the breed of the dog before even clicking.

I'm sure baron must be fuming, somewhere.
Quite.

My regular point in 'discussions' with baron was that BT breeds don't necessarily attack more often, but that they attack differently. They go for the kill.

What's more, the very young and the elderly figure more often in serious BT attacks. I wouldn't mind betting that this frail, elderly victim fell inside the house, spooking the dog into a lethal attack that spilled into the garden.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 12:12 PM   #13
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 18,709
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yeah, this forum would be ideal if nobody ever posted a controversial opinion. Unicorns, rainbows and sunshiny faces everywhere. We could discuss the weather 24/7. New members would be signing up by the thousands.
I'll never ceased to be amused by people who see no difference between "not having stubborn one issue zealots who can't change their mind and won't change the subject" and "having an echo chamber."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 03:30 PM   #14
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 44,245
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just be glad Baron is no longer around.
Yeah, his "Hound of the Baskerville's" avatar would really look great in this discussion.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 05:09 PM   #15
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,178
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'll never ceased to be amused by people who see no difference between "not having stubborn one issue zealots who can't change their mind and won't change the subject" and "having an echo chamber."
Actually you are not really amused at all by those type of people, are you.

Baron certainly did refuse to release his pit bull like grip on any of his opinions, but he was definitely not a one issue zealot. He sunk his teeth into very strong opinions on quite a variety of topics.

I really do not like to see any poster get banned, or pushed into leaving. 10 or 15 years ago there were a lot more opinionated, limited topic posters than there are now. The forum was much more interesting then.

You may define every “slippery slope” as a fallacy but sometimes they are real. It has been going on here for years.

And, in an effort to have at least some on topic content in this post, I am a dog lover but I would certainly like to see a lot fewer pit bull type dogs in the world. They really are dangerous due to the types of damage they can cause.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 05:38 PM   #16
Whip
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,441
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Baron certainly did refuse to release his pit bull like grip on any of his opinions
I see what you did there.
Whip is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 05:55 PM   #17
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,910
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Just be glad Baron is no longer around.
Oh, I hadn't noticed. The forum function which must not be named has served its purpose again.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 06:48 PM   #18
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,423
Quote:
"It's an older dog, it's quite familiar with most of the members of the family and my understanding is it's quite out of character for the dog," he said.

"Quite out of character"! Ya, that's what they all say. Attacking until the target is dead is definitely in character for these dogs.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 09:47 PM   #19
Lambchops
Graduate Poster
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 1,361
How many "threatening" chihuhauas has the cops killed so far this year?

"I feared for my life hurr durr"
__________________
Your grandchildren will be brown, trans, and Islamo-Communist.

Last edited by Lambchops; 11th July 2019 at 09:49 PM.
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 10:59 PM   #20
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,202
The garden hose was never going to stop it but what would have stopped the dog. Mace? Going full swing with a baseball bat?
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 11:06 PM   #21
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,784
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The garden hose was never going to stop it but what would have stopped the dog. Mace? Going full swing with a baseball bat?
From experience kicking it in the head while wearing steel caps works.

Side point. Think it was after it all happened, and the dog was separated, but don't get why the cops were firing warning shots and didn't just shoot it.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 11:12 PM   #22
Lambchops
Graduate Poster
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 1,361
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
From experience kicking it in the head while wearing steel caps works.

Side point. Think it was after it all happened, and the dog was separated, but don't get why the cops were firing warning shots and didn't just shoot it.
You just love the taste of those boots, don't you?
__________________
Your grandchildren will be brown, trans, and Islamo-Communist.
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 11:16 PM   #23
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,784
Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
You just love the taste of those boots, don't you?
Not really
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 11:51 PM   #24
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 6,351
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yeah, this forum would be ideal if nobody ever posted a controversial opinion. Unicorns, rainbows and sunshiny faces everywhere. We could discuss the weather 24/7. New members would be signing up by the thousands.
What? You got, from that throwaway comment, all of this?

You sir, and this kind of malicious misinterpretation of peoples comments, along with your smartass rolling eyes are one of reasons people are leaving this forum and signs ups are dropping.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 11:54 PM   #25
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,825
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The garden hose was never going to stop it but what would have stopped the dog. Mace? Going full swing with a baseball bat?
Some pit bull websites recommend that the owner keep a 'break stick' handy. This is jammed into the dog's mouth at the pivot of the jaw and allows its mouth to be levered open. What happens then is a mystery as you still have an angry dog to deal with, and it seems pretty useless when it's the dog's keeper that's being attacked.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2019, 11:59 PM   #26
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,784
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Some pit bull websites recommend that the owner keep a 'break stick' handy. This is jammed into the dog's mouth at the pivot of the jaw and allows its mouth to be levered open. What happens then is a mystery as you still have an angry dog to deal with, and it seems pretty useless when it's the dog's keeper that's being attacked.
Never walk alone with a dog unprepared

__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 12:39 AM   #27
Lambchops
Graduate Poster
 
Lambchops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Norvegr
Posts: 1,361
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Not really
Every single post you make here clearly shows that you do.
__________________
Your grandchildren will be brown, trans, and Islamo-Communist.

Last edited by Lambchops; 12th July 2019 at 12:41 AM.
Lambchops is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 12:53 AM   #28
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,784
Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Every single post you make here clearly shows that you do.
Have you ever done a post that isn't trolling?
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 02:31 AM   #29
Abooga
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 748
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
The garden hose was never going to stop it but what would have stopped the dog. Mace? Going full swing with a baseball bat?
I´ve read somewhere that the best method is to stick a finger up the dog´s rectum. Supposedly they get such a shock that they let go and stop the "attack mode". Makes sense. I´ve never had the chance to try it, so I don´t know if it really works...

Last edited by Abooga; 12th July 2019 at 02:33 AM.
Abooga is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 02:52 AM   #30
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 21,202
Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I´ve read somewhere that the best method is to stick a finger up the dog´s rectum. Supposedly they get such a shock that they let go and stop the "attack mode". Makes sense. I´ve never had the chance to try it, so I don´t know if it really works...
It worked for John Hopoate.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 03:31 AM   #31
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9,388
Attack lasted up to 45 minutes - wonder what police response time was after report was made.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 03:42 AM   #32
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,825
Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I´ve read somewhere that the best method is to stick a finger up the dog´s rectum. Supposedly they get such a shock that they let go and stop the "attack mode". Makes sense. I´ve never had the chance to try it, so I don´t know if it really works...
I've heard similar, but it was something more like a substantial stick that was recommended, and not applied gently either.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 05:50 AM   #33
SuburbanTurkey
Graduate Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,633
Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
I´ve read somewhere that the best method is to stick a finger up the dog´s rectum. Supposedly they get such a shock that they let go and stop the "attack mode". Makes sense. I´ve never had the chance to try it, so I don´t know if it really works...
I'm guessing you're gonna need an assistant for that. Gonna be hard to give a dog the ole reach around if it's busy tearing chunks out of your thigh.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 05:55 AM   #34
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,784
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm guessing you're gonna need an assistant for that. Gonna be hard to give a dog the ole reach around if it's busy tearing chunks out of your thigh.
Problem is these dogs go for your throat or face, or your arms if they can't, so your thigh is the least of your worries.

They were breed to be hunting dogs that keep the prey in one place.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 06:05 AM   #35
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 12,862
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Problem is these dogs go for your throat or face, or your arms if they can't, so your thigh is the least of your worries.

They were breed to be hunting dogs that keep the prey in one place.
Incorrect. Pit Bulls were bred to fight.

I bet the dog showed signs of trouble before this happened. Add: as evidenced in the article.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

Last edited by varwoche; 12th July 2019 at 06:06 AM.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 06:25 AM   #36
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 40,321
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Quite.



My regular point in 'discussions' with baron was that BT breeds don't necessarily attack more often, but that they attack differently. They go for the kill.



What's more, the very young and the elderly figure more often in serious BT attacks. I wouldn't mind betting that this frail, elderly victim fell inside the house, spooking the dog into a lethal attack that spilled into the garden.
We had a fox Terrier cross. Fortunately she was only small but was born with a bad attitude. If she had the body of an American Staffordshire Terrier she would have had to be put down.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2019, 04:05 AM   #37
Tsukasa Buddha
Other (please write in)
 
Tsukasa Buddha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NeverLand
Posts: 15,061
I also enjoy confirmation bias!

Hang on, no, I enjoy scientific evidence and not media-driven panics and fallacies.

From the Australian Veterinary Association:

Quote:
Veterinarians share community concerns about aggressive dogs, but banning particular breeds is not the solution. In 2012 the Australian Veterinary Association (AVA) commissioned a report into the causes behind aggressive dogs and an alternative approach to address the issue. The report found that there was little evidence to support banning particular dog breeds as a way of addressing canine aggression in the community. Instead, education of the public and legislative tools that equip animal management authorities to identify potentially dangerous individual dogs offer the best results in reducing incidents with aggressive dogs.1

...

The failure of breed-specific legislation to prevent dog attacks is due to a number of factors:
  • Breed on its own is not an effective indicator or predictor of aggression in dogs. 4,5,6
  • It is not possible to determine precisely the breed of the types of dogs targeted by breed-specific legislation by appearance or by DNA analysis.4,5
  • The number of animals that would need to be removed from a community to have a meaningful impact on hospital admissions is so high that the removal of any one breed would have negligible impact.4
  • Breed-specific legislation ignores the human element whereby dog owners who desire this kind of dog will simply substitute another breed of dog of similar size, strength and perception of aggressive tendencies.4,5,6
From a Journal of Veterinary Behavior review on Australian fatality and attack records:

Quote:
Using absolute numbers of dog attacks by breed in Australia, data on attacks on human beings reveal the pit bull terrier to be exceeded by several other breeds. Regardless, the primary problem is that reliable data do not exist for the number of attacks relative to breed population. Of 19 human fatalities in Australia over the past two decades, none has involved a dog verified to be an American pit bull terrier. The evidence does not sustain the view that this is a uniquely dangerous breed, and breed-specific laws aimed to control it have not been demonstrated by authorities to be justified by its attack record.
Linky.

From a Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association study on US fatality data:

Quote:
RESULTS:
Major co-occurrent factors for the 256 DBRFs included absence of an able-bodied person to intervene (n = 223 [87.1%]), incidental or no familiar relationship of victims with dogs (218 [85.2%]), owner failure to neuter dogs (216 [84.4%]), compromised ability of victims to interact appropriately with dogs (198 [77.4%]), dogs kept isolated from regular positive human interactions versus family dogs (195 [76.2%]), owners' prior mismanagement of dogs (96 [37.5%]), and owners' history of abuse or neglect of dogs (54 [21.1%]). Four or more of these factors co-occurred in 206 (80.5%) deaths. For 401 dogs described in various media accounts, reported breed differed for 124 (30.9%); for 346 dogs with both media and animal control breed reports, breed differed for 139 (40.2%). Valid breed determination was possible for only 45 (17.6%) DBRFs; 20 breeds, including 2 known mixes, were identified.

CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE:
Most DBRFs were characterized by coincident, preventable factors; breed was not one of these. Study results supported previous recommendations for multifactorial approaches, instead of single-factor solutions such as breed-specific legislation, for dog bite prevention.
Linky.

The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior: Position Statement on Breed-Specific Legislation

From the American Veterinary Medical Association:

Quote:
It is not possible to calculate a bite rate for a breed or to compare rates between breeds because the data reported is often unreliable. This is because:
  1. The breed of a biting dog is often not known or is reported inaccurately.
  2. The actual number of bites that occur in a community is not known, especially if they don't result in serious injury.
  3. The number of dogs of a particular breed or combination of breeds in a community is not known because it is rare for all dogs in a community to be licensed.
  4. Statistics often do not consider multiple incidents caused by a single animal.
  5. Breed popularity changes over time, making comparison of breed-specific bite rates unreliable. However a review of the research that attempts to quantify the relation between breed and bite risk finds the connection to be weak or absent, while responsible ownership variables such as socialization, neutering and proper containment of dogs are much more strongly indicated as important risk factors.
And from the AVMA literature review:

Quote:
Conclusion
Maulings by dogs can cause terrible injuries47 and death—and it is natural for those dealing with the victims to seek to address the immediate causes. However as Duffy et al (2008) wrote of their survey based data: "The substantial within-breed variation…suggests that it is inappropriate to make predictions about a given dog's propensity for aggressive behavior based solely on its breed." While breed is a factor, the impact of other factors relating to the individual animal (such as training method, sex and neutering status), the target (e.g. owner versus stranger), and the context in which the dog is kept (e.g. urban versus rural) prevent breed from having significant predictive value in its own right. Also the nature of a breed has been shown to vary across time, geographically, and according to breed subtypes such as those raised for conformation showing versus field trials.37

Given that breed is a poor sole predictor of aggressiveness and pit bull-type dogs are not implicated in controlled studies it is difficult to support the targeting of this breed as a basis for dog bite prevention. If breeds are to be targeted a cluster of large breeds would be implicated including the German shepherd and shepherd crosses and other breeds that vary by location.
TL;DR It's the people. If you wished away every pit-bull-ish dog in existence, irresponsible owners would move back to Dobermans or GSD or on to some new popular breed. It wouldn't change attack or death rates.
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn

Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 13th July 2019 at 04:07 AM.
Tsukasa Buddha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2019, 03:14 PM   #38
rustypouch
Philosopher
 
rustypouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,726
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post

<snip>

TL;DR It's the people. If you wished away every pit-bull-ish dog in existence, irresponsible owners would move back to Dobermans or GSD or on to some new popular breed. It wouldn't change attack or death rates.
Agreed. Dogs are a nuisance and a menace, and irresponsible owners need to be held accountable.
rustypouch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2019, 11:55 PM   #39
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 24,825
Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
TL;DR It's the people. If you wished away every pit-bull-ish dog in existence, irresponsible owners would move back to Dobermans or GSD or on to some new popular breed. It wouldn't change attack or death rates.
Your stats talk about aggression, not the outcome of aggression. If you look at outcomes then pitbull(ish) breeds are much more dangerous. This is hardly surprising given that they were bred for a persistent 'to the death' type of attack, known in bully circles as 'gameness'. A retriever or spaniel simply doesn't attack in the way described in this and many other bully breed horror stories.

GamenessWP

eta:

From pubmed, concerning a hospital study here

"CONCLUSIONS:

Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are attacks by other breeds of dogs. Strict regulation of pit bulls may substantially reduce the US mortality rates related to dog bites."
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

Last edited by GlennB; 14th July 2019 at 12:28 AM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2019, 09:21 PM   #40
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
 
Silly Green Monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arizona
Posts: 4,666
I still remember the 80's Big Bad murderdog being the Doberman pinscher. We were taught to fear the sight of those little gold eyebrows on an otherwise black, muscled dog that was bred for aggression and wouldn't hesitate to rip you apart.

When you use the exact same words on a different breed, it kinda removes their impact and makes you look like a liar, you know. Every season has its own Big Bad and previous breeds are *still around* and somehow aren't a problem now?
__________________
Normal is just a stereotype.
Silly Green Monkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:59 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.