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Old 11th July 2019, 05:42 AM   #201
wareyin
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And Acosta makes Kushner look like a innocent when it comes to corruption.
And it's I sno longer a case of Just Trump, I think the whole GOP has become totally corrupt in it's blind lust for power. Acosta would have been gone by now in any previous administration.
That's the thing, isn't it? For all the oblivious claims that this is all the same, it's just not. Heck, any previous administration hit with .01% of the scandals Trump caused would have had that President resigning in disgrace, but teflon Don the conman just grins and his fans eat it up.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And more and more I ma convinced there is no good ending to this. Massive domestic violence is coming, no matter what happens in 2020. We have passed the point of no return .
You say this a lot. I don't agree. The vast majority of Trumpers I know in person are all bark and no bite.
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Old 11th July 2019, 06:49 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
...
Heck, any previous administration hit with .01% of the scandals Trump caused would have had that President resigning in disgrace, but teflon Don the conman just grins and his fans eat it up.

...
That's what I don't understand. Does he have some magic talisman or pact with the Devil that nothing seems to affect his holding of the office? (I read a book or two like that.) Reagan was called the "Teflon President" because nothing would stick. Trump is more like a "K-Y" President.

I do think it's mostly the people around him now that have agendas that are keeping him there for their own personal gain. (The ones that didn't are gone.)
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:19 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That's what I don't understand. Does he have some magic talisman or pact with the Devil that nothing seems to affect his holding of the office? (I read a book or two like that.) Reagan was called the "Teflon President" because nothing would stick. Trump is more like a "K-Y" President.

I do think it's mostly the people around him now that have agendas that are keeping him there for their own personal gain. (The ones that didn't are gone.)
I think it's that enough of the US electorate don't care that it doesn't matter anymore. They've been told that all politicians are corrupt scumbags, that the Clintons have killed several people and embezzled hundreds of millions. By comparison, President Trump is a saint.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I'd say it was less than half the country who lost their minds over Obama. Really though, he wore a tan suit, so of course that's worse than creating concentration camps for children that also personally enrich your cronies.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He didn't wear a flag pin that time!!!!!! Just like committing felonies to violate campaign finance law.
Don't forget the use of Dijon mustard on a hamburger - French mustard on an American burger, that's treason !!1!!1!!!!!11

Then again, in the right wing echo chamber I'm sure there are all kinds of stories about how corrupt the Obamas are whether it's their time back in Chicago, their making of millions out of books (some of which were ghostwritten) or indeed becoming President by claiming to be a Christian American when in fact he is a Muslim Kenyan
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:29 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That's the thing, isn't it? For all the oblivious claims that this is all the same, it's just not. Heck, any previous administration hit with .01% of the scandals Trump caused would have had that President resigning in disgrace, but teflon Don the conman just grins and his fans eat it up.
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That's what I don't understand. Does he have some magic talisman or pact with the Devil that nothing seems to affect his holding of the office? (I read a book or two like that.) Reagan was called the "Teflon President" because nothing would stick. Trump is more like a "K-Y" President.
Everyone with enough neurons bouncing around in their skull to light off a synapse knows that Trump is a horrible President.

Problem was he wasn't elected to be a President. He was elected to be a troll. And he's doing that job with top marks.

Trump can be summed up and understood perfectly with the simple phrase "He makes the liberals mad."
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:41 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Everyone with enough neurons bouncing around in their skull to light off a synapse knows that Trump is a horrible President.

Problem was he wasn't elected to be a President. He was elected to be a troll. And he's doing that job with top marks.

Trump can be summed up and understood perfectly with the simple phrase "He makes the liberals mad."
I think you're oversimplifying a bit. He makes establishment Republicans mad, too. Trump won the GOP nomination before he won the general election.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:24 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think you're oversimplifying a bit. He makes establishment Republicans mad, too. Trump won the GOP nomination before he won the general election.
These would be the establishment Republicans who support him wholeheartedly? If they're actually mad, they sure have a funny way of showing it.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:26 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think you're oversimplifying a bit. He makes establishment Republicans mad, too. Trump won the GOP nomination before he won the general election.
Yeah but they don't... do anything about it. Which is the political equivalent of picketing a store for selling sweatshop goods... but still doing all of your shopping there.

I'm sure a lot, hell maybe even most mainstream Republican don't like Trump, but politically they always have his back so... yeah.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah but they don't... do anything about it. Which is the political equivalent of picketing a store for selling sweatshop goods... but still doing all of your shopping there.

I'm sure a lot, hell maybe even most mainstream Republican don't like Trump, but politically they always have his back so... yeah.
What are they supposed to do about it? Cede the country to the opposition faction just because their constituency rammed a spoiler into office this cycle? I think their best play is pretty much what they're actually doing: Hold their noses, put the best face on it they can, and to the extent that the President will actually work to advance their agenda, make hay while the sun shines.

But many mainstream conservatives (notably the folks at National Review, but also others) have responded to Trump's election by taking the position that it would be better to cede the country to progressives than to tolerate his presidency.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:42 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are they supposed to do about it? Cede the country to the opposition faction just because their constituency rammed a spoiler into office this cycle? I think their best play is pretty much what they're actually doing: Hold their noses, put the best face on it they can, and to the extent that the President will actually work to advance their agenda, make hay while the sun shines.

But many mainstream conservatives (notably the folks at National Review, but also others) have responded to Trump's election by taking the position that it would be better to cede the country to progressives than to tolerate his presidency.
Again I don't have an retort for the "Yeah Trumps bad, but letting the Dems get their way is worse" kind of arguments.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:52 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are they supposed to do about it? Cede the country to the opposition faction just because their constituency rammed a spoiler into office this cycle? I think their best play is pretty much what they're actually doing: Hold their noses, put the best face on it they can, and to the extent that the President will actually work to advance their agenda, make hay while the sun shines.
This sort of undercuts your previous claim about Trump making them mad. Unless Trump giving them what they want is somehow making them mad?
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:05 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I don't have an retort for the "Yeah Trumps bad, but letting the Dems get their way is worse" kind of arguments.
I'm not making that argument, and I'm not asking for a retort. You complained that the GOP establishment isn't doing anything about Trump except making the best of the situation.

I'm not asking you for a retort. I'm asking you what you think they should be doing instead.

I dunno, maybe your answer is that letting the Democrats get their way is what the GOP should be doing right now. Presumably backed by some sort of reasonable argument. If you have that, you don't need a "retort". You can just answer the question. Which is all I'm asking you to do anyway. Please don't let your lack of a retort get in the way of answering my question.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:07 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
This sort of undercuts your previous claim about Trump making them mad. Unless Trump giving them what they want is somehow making them mad?
Trump giving them some of what they want is better than nothing. It's not a zero-sum game, so flipping the table is not necessarily better than continuing to play at a disadvantage. But the GOP establishment would have preferred Romney or Bush to Trump, I think.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:31 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trump giving them some of what they want is better than nothing. It's not a zero-sum game, so flipping the table is not necessarily better than continuing to play at a disadvantage. But the GOP establishment would have preferred Romney or Bush to Trump, I think.
That's a pretty big walkback from him making them angry. McConnell et al are sure doing a fine job of pretending to love Trump if your assessment of their super seekrit motives is correct.
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Old 11th July 2019, 10:00 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You say this a lot. I don't agree. The vast majority of Trumpers I know in person are all bark and no bite.

The problem is, it doesn't require a "vast majority" to commit acts of violence. What percentage of the population ever fired a shot during the American Revolution, or the Civil War? If the barkers have no bite, then they also won't bite the people on their side who do decide to bite.

Get enough armed idiots in one spot, who are committed to violence, and violence will ensue. The real question is how much it will spread from that spark.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are they supposed to do about it? Cede the country to the opposition faction just because their constituency rammed a spoiler into office this cycle?


Yes, actually, that's exactly what they should do. That's what loyalty to the country over the party means. When your party ***** up so badly that someone like Trump ends up on the ticket, you vote for the other guys, and accept the short term pain. Just like an amputation.

And before you say that's all well and good in theory, this is exactly what I did in the last Ontario Provincial election, when the PC party went out of their way to elect a Trump-lite idiot as their party leader. I had intended to vote PC, but voted Liberal instead, purely because I knew that Doug Ford would be a ****** leader.
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Old 11th July 2019, 10:22 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That's a pretty big walkback from him making them angry. McConnell et al are sure doing a fine job of pretending to love Trump if your assessment of their super seekrit motives is correct.
Enh.

My claim was that Trump was nominated to piss off the GOP. One reason I think it was successful is the open expression of anger by some mainstream Republicans. I also infer that it was successful from my understanding of establishment politics. I credit McConnell with being smart enough, and cynical enough, not to throw an anti-Trump tantrum when he still has the Senate, he still has the governorships, and he still has millions of Republican-registered voters whose votes he might like to keep for his own ends.

Just like I credit Pelosi with being smart enough and cynical enough to not throw an anti-Trump tantrum and embark on some quixotic attempt to impeach.

I'm not walking back anything. I think Trump was nominated to piss off the GOP, and I think it worked. That's open to interpretation, though, so if you don't see it that's fine.

I'm not sure why you keep trying to turn this discussion into a win-lose game.
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Old 11th July 2019, 10:34 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure why you keep trying to turn this discussion into a win-lose game.
Simple. With Trump, the GOP has felt like they have been winning, contrary to your claim that electing him was to piss off the GOP. Also, with Trump, we all lose. Some people either just aren't bright enough to see it yet, or are too short sighted to see past the temporary happy feels of voicing their inner trolls to see it yet.
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Old 11th July 2019, 10:54 AM   #218
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Before the primary, pundits like Laura Ingraham were saying that if the GOP nominated "another Establishment Republican", they would face a revolt from the "real Republicans" in the party.
One argument I remember was that Democrats wouldn't do anything about illegal immigrants because they want their votes, and Establishment Republicans wouldn't do anything about it because their corporate backers want cheap labor, and it would take an outsider to do what the people really wanted.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:03 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Simple. With Trump, the GOP has felt like they have been winning, contrary to your claim that electing him was to piss off the GOP.
This seems to be an over-narrow view. The GOP establishment lost the chance to put one of their own into high office. I'm sure this pissed them off. On the other hand, not having an establishment Democrat in that office is still a partial win. I think the smart play is to take the partial win and run with it, rather than fight it. But some prominent Republicans have chosen to fight it anyway. It's clear that not all of the GOP feels like they're winning, with a Trump presidency.

Also, I think you're conflating the GOP leadership - the establishment - with Republican voters. I'm pretty sure people who voted for Trump kinda feel like they're winning. I'm not at all sure that GOP leadership and establishment politicians feel like President Trump represents a big win for their interests.

Quote:
Also, with Trump, we all lose.
I think the emergence of the Tea Party, the spoilering effect of the Bernie campaign in 2016, and the election of Donald Trump all stem from the same root cause: An electorate that feels like no matter who gets elected, we all lose. These are anti-establishment gestures. I suppose the establishment politicians could be happy with these outcomes, but it doesn't seem very plausible to me. YMMV.

Quote:
Some people either just aren't bright enough to see it yet, or are too short sighted to see past the temporary happy feels of voicing their inner trolls to see it yet.
Without some citations, I don't think we can take this claim seriously.

---

Anyway, I'm not sure I understand how this addresses my concern about you turning the discussion into a win-lose game. It kind of seems like you're doing it in order to win some larger rhetorical battle in American politics, that you believe is being fought partly here in this thread. It also seems like you believe that victory in this particular engagement means victory over me and my opinions personally. I'm not sure this is actually the case, though. Could you clarify?
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:50 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems to be an over-narrow view. The GOP establishment lost the chance to put one of their own into high office. I'm sure this pissed them off. On the other hand, not having an establishment Democrat in that office is still a partial win. I think the smart play is to take the partial win and run with it, rather than fight it. But some prominent Republicans have chosen to fight it anyway. It's clear that not all of the GOP feels like they're winning, with a Trump presidency.
As soon as Trump looked like he might win the candidacy, the GOP establishment went all in on him. Whether or not he was one of their own before July 19, 2016, Trump is their guy now. Yes, a couple of Congresscritters have defied Trump in one or 2 votes, but that's not exactly unusual, and certainly not a sign that the establishment is angry with the guy.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, I think you're conflating the GOP leadership - the establishment - with Republican voters. I'm pretty sure people who voted for Trump kinda feel like they're winning. I'm not at all sure that GOP leadership and establishment politicians feel like President Trump represents a big win for their interests.
I agree that some (maybe even the majority) of the people who voted for Trump feel like they are winning. But 16.5, logger, elfgrinder3000, and other trolls all felt like they were winning as they trolled this forum, right up until they got booted (or quit before they could get booted).

As for the GOP leadership, publicly they are happy with the man and have his back at every opportunity. Given the crimes documented in the Mueller report they could get rid of Trump easily at any time, so the fact that they not only don't but actually cover for him is pretty strong evidence against your claim. A Trump impeachment would give them Pence, most definitely not a Democrat, after all.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the emergence of the Tea Party, the spoilering effect of the Bernie campaign in 2016, and the election of Donald Trump all stem from the same root cause: An electorate that feels like no matter who gets elected, we all lose. These are anti-establishment gestures. I suppose the establishment politicians could be happy with these outcomes, but it doesn't seem very plausible to me. YMMV.
I think the election of Trump stems from the emergence of the Tea Party; they are not 2 seperate things. Also, I question how many of those voting for Trump did so because of the anti-establishment street cred he got, and how many voted for him because they will always and only vote for anyone with an R next to their name? Strictly party voters may be anti-establishment, somehow, but you're going to have to come up with some plausible way of connecting anti-establishment and reflexive support of that establishment.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Without some citations, I don't think we can take this claim seriously.
What exactly do you need a citation for? That people voted for Trump as a way to troll the "libs"? Or that people voted for Trump who aren't bright enough to notice that his policies and actions have hurt our country?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, I'm not sure I understand how this addresses my concern about you turning the discussion into a win-lose game. It kind of seems like you're doing it in order to win some larger rhetorical battle in American politics, that you believe is being fought partly here in this thread. It also seems like you believe that victory in this particular engagement means victory over me and my opinions personally. I'm not sure this is actually the case, though. Could you clarify?
Sure, I'll clarify for you: your arguments are not the same thing as you. Me showing the flaws in your arguments is not a personal attack. You hiding behind claims of being personally attacked rather than supporting your claims does not either win you points nor advance the discussion.

Did that help?
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Old 11th July 2019, 12:19 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You say this a lot. I don't agree. The vast majority of Trumpers I know in person are all bark and no bite.
To hear them on reddit or (ick) Voat, many of them are convinced that they'll march up to their fellow MAGA-hat wearing farmers, put an arm around their loyal shoulders and tell them to cut off the flow of food to the urban centers that don't support the orange sack of corruption they love so much. Then they'll laugh in their pickups as they watch the cities fall into food riots and chaos and only allow the food to go back in after the cities agree to give up their rights to vote or similar limitations (like they can only vote for Pubbie candidates, etc).

In addition to the implausibility of their wet dream, the simple fact is that a) most cities have ports where food can be imported and b) Big Agriculture is going to take one glance at their financial spreadsheets before tossing the Redcaps into the highway.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:55 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I think it's that enough of the US electorate don't care that it doesn't matter anymore. They've been told that all politicians are corrupt scumbags, that the Clintons have killed several people and embezzled hundreds of millions. By comparison, President Trump is a saint.


With a Trump clone about to become PM of the UK, I think that rule about people who live in glass houses comes into play....
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:57 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
To hear them on reddit or (ick) Voat, many of them are convinced that they'll march up to their fellow MAGA-hat wearing farmers, put an arm around their loyal shoulders and tell them to cut off the flow of food to the urban centers that don't support the orange sack of corruption they love so much. Then they'll laugh in their pickups as they watch the cities fall into food riots and chaos and only allow the food to go back in after the cities agree to give up their rights to vote or similar limitations (like they can only vote for Pubbie candidates, etc).

In addition to the implausibility of their wet dream, the simple fact is that a) most cities have ports where food can be imported and b) Big Agriculture is going to take one glance at their financial spreadsheets before tossing the Redcaps into the highway.
Try that in California and the National Guard will be clearing the road so quick it will make your head swim.
It's a idiotic idea, frankly. And you are right that Big Business will not tolerate that for one second...they won't even have to look at their spreadsheets.
I have real concerns for violence, but not of this type.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:59 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
The problem is, it doesn't require a "vast majority" to commit acts of violence. What percentage of the population ever fired a shot during the American Revolution, or the Civil War? If the barkers have no bite, then they also won't bite the people on their side who do decide to bite.

Get enough armed idiots in one spot, who are committed to violence, and violence will ensue. The real question is how much it will spread from that spark.






Yes, actually, that's exactly what they should do. That's what loyalty to the country over the party means. When your party ***** up so badly that someone like Trump ends up on the ticket, you vote for the other guys, and accept the short term pain. Just like an amputation.

And before you say that's all well and good in theory, this is exactly what I did in the last Ontario Provincial election, when the PC party went out of their way to elect a Trump-lite idiot as their party leader. I had intended to vote PC, but voted Liberal instead, purely because I knew that Doug Ford would be a ****** leader.
orobelm is some people are so blindly devoted to their party they would vote for Adolf Hitler or Joe Stalin if they were on the ticket.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:07 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Try that in California and the National Guard will be clearing the road so quick it will make your head swim.
It's a idiotic idea, frankly. And you are right that Big Business will not tolerate that for one second...they won't even have to look at their spreadsheets.
I have real concerns for violence, but not of this type.
Oh, its an incredibly stupid idea. Dumb beyond all reason. But I've seen it said as a proposal or a taunt multiple times by DT lovers. They are convinced this will happen because rural farmers tended to vote for Trump.

Of course, even the slightest thought shows how flawed the plans are. You wouldn't even need the National Guard to intervene. Even the non Big Ag farmers would move their crops past any barricades if there was a buck to be made. These guys assume that their fellow man will be in lockstep with them in loyalty to their cause, rather than their bottom line.

Yet, they keep cheering for it: their starvation based version of the Turner Diaries.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:28 PM   #226
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I'm just shaking my head at this: a Trump theme wedding. The groom's African-American father found it so offensive he refused to attend. But the couple chose Trump over him. Don't miss the rifle and assault weapon that had to make an appearance!
https://fox8.com/2019/07/11/couples-...A3KUjHy5Y_wODg
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Old 11th July 2019, 05:14 PM   #227
dudalb
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Oh, its an incredibly stupid idea. Dumb beyond all reason. But I've seen it said as a proposal or a taunt multiple times by DT lovers. They are convinced this will happen because rural farmers tended to vote for Trump.

Of course, even the slightest thought shows how flawed the plans are. You wouldn't even need the National Guard to intervene. Even the non Big Ag farmers would move their crops past any barricades if there was a buck to be made. These guys assume that their fellow man will be in lockstep with them in loyalty to their cause, rather than their bottom line.

Yet, they keep cheering for it: their starvation based version of the Turner Diaries.
Hell, I suspect some angry truck driver would end the revolution in about one minute....
It's sort of demented version of "Galt's Gulch" in "Atlas Shrugged".
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Old 11th July 2019, 06:10 PM   #228
wareyin
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Oh, its an incredibly stupid idea. Dumb beyond all reason. But I've seen it said as a proposal or a taunt multiple times by DT lovers. They are convinced this will happen because rural farmers tended to vote for Trump.

Of course, even the slightest thought shows how flawed the plans are. You wouldn't even need the National Guard to intervene. Even the non Big Ag farmers would move their crops past any barricades if there was a buck to be made. These guys assume that their fellow man will be in lockstep with them in loyalty to their cause, rather than their bottom line.

Yet, they keep cheering for it: their starvation based version of the Turner Diaries.
I think I found the problem. Trump supporters aren't really known for their ability to perform the highlighted. It's basically why they support Trump.
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Old 15th July 2019, 07:15 AM   #229
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Mod WarningDerail on the definition of Assault Weapons moved to AAH. Please keep to the topic of the thread.
Posted By:zooterkin
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