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Old 18th April 2019, 12:05 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Well, that certainly takes the romance out of it.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:06 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I already did. Pressure expand to least resistance and low pressure. Space provides no resistance and is near zero pressure
And your answer is wrong. Try again.

Hans
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:07 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
In the direction of low pressure lol. Campfire smoke pressure moves up because there is low pressure at higher altitude
Wrong again, ho boy!

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Old 18th April 2019, 12:09 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
We're taking his security blanket and tossing it. He can't handle that.
The video is definitely something he wants to be taken at face value and not questioned. That much is clear. And he seems to display almost no correct understanding of Newtonian mechanics on his own. I surmise his approach was to assume that whoever made that video must have been very smart, and therefore probably smarter than any critics that might be encountered. Therefore he could just repackage that video and pretend also to be as smart. But it's a cargo-cult approach, obviously. So now there's just gaslighting, arguments trying to get us to agree that the video is correct even when we've presented good reasons why it isn't, reasons he can't address and doesn't want to allow to exist.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:11 PM   #365
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Well, I think the fun of this one is almost exhausted, without obtaining any propulsion.

Hans
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:11 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
They ASSUMED incorrectly (on purpose), that there is an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Escaping gas needs something to push off of



Mathematical proof that the thrust equation is false

Attachment 39978
An inability to orientate your calculations the right way doesn't inspire me with confidence.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:15 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, I think the fun of this one is almost exhausted, without obtaining any propulsion.

Hans
Does this mean that we have to concede that rockets don't work?
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:21 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
And your answer is not even wrong. Try again.

Hans

FTFY - it didnít answer the question.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:21 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Do they go into space. Every rocket launch it looks like it went into the ocean
If rockets don't go in to space how does GPS work?
How do satellite phones work?
Why can we see the ISS fly over?
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:22 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Does this mean that we have to concede that rockets don't work?
Our poster concedes that rockets work in an atmosphere, where there is air to push off from. He denies they work in a vacuum. Because his model appears to predict what is observed when rockets fly in air, he believes it is a correct model. He is uninterested in why his model is wrong. He is similarly uninterested in learning the principles of physics that would also lead to understanding why his purported analogies are inapt. In sum, he has constructed a self-consistent ball of error that includes everything he might want to casually observe, but excludes space travel.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:24 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If rockets don't go in to space how does GPS work?
How do satellite phones work?
Why can we see the ISS fly over?
He has conceded he doesn't have answers for any of these, but speculates that there may exist "technology" he doesn't know about and can't describe which accounts for these apparent products of space travel. In other words, after chiding everyone for their "religious" faith in NASA and space, he has simply invoked ineffable miracles to account for his beliefs.

It's pretty clear at this point which of us is exhibiting the religious-style belief.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:26 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I donít think space travel exists, but who know what other technology is out there. By they certainly do no go into space with rockets
How do you explain GPS? Sat Phones?
ISS flyovers?
Satellites visible in the sky at the times they are scheduled to fly over?
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:27 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If rockets don't go in to space how does GPS work?
How do satellite phones work?
Why can we see the ISS fly over?
I suppose rockets could reach orbit while there's enough atmosphere to push against But separation and other maneuvering wouldn't work for lack of atmosphere. This means the ISS is empty, as docking wouldn't be possible so the crew and supplies could never get to it. Quite a lot to spend on maintaining the false narrative of space flight, really.

Also, the Hubble photos must be faked. And other things too ...
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:28 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
All the rockets ive seen, they donít appear to go into space
Which rockets have you seen?

(video doesn't count, I mean with your own eyes)
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:31 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Our poster concedes that rockets work in an atmosphere, where there is air to push off from. He denies they work in a vacuum. Because his model appears to predict what is observed when rockets fly in air, he believes it is a correct model. He is uninterested in why his model is wrong. He is similarly uninterested in learning the principles of physics that would also lead to understanding why his purported analogies are inapt. In sum, he has constructed a self-consistent ball of error that includes everything he might want to casually observe, but excludes space travel.
IIRC and I'm not searching you labelled as narcissist and through all this Gish gallop that really does appear to be correct.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:32 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
He has conceded he doesn't have answers for any of these, but speculates that there may exist "technology" he doesn't know about and can't describe which accounts for these apparent products of space travel. In other words, after chiding everyone for their "religious" faith in NASA and space, he has simply invoked ineffable miracles to account for his beliefs.

It's pretty clear at this point which of us is exhibiting the religious-style belief.
That's letting him off the hook.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:35 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
A bit runnier than you'd like it.
In this instance, though, I do care how ******* runny it is. But nobody's bringing forth the fromage de la belle France.

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Old 18th April 2019, 12:36 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Our poster concedes that rockets work in an atmosphere, where there is air to push off from. He denies they work in a vacuum. Because his model appears to predict what is observed when rockets fly in air, he believes it is a correct model. He is uninterested in why his model is wrong. He is similarly uninterested in learning the principles of physics that would also lead to understanding why his purported analogies are inapt. In sum, he has constructed a self-consistent ball of error that includes everything he might want to casually observe, but excludes space travel.
I don't suppose he has explained exactly where the atmosphere ends and the rockets stop working?
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:37 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
In this instance, though, I do care how ******* runny it is. But nobody's bringing forth the fromage de la belle France.

Dave
I know, I've finished my daily glass of red wine(whine) and no one brought me any cheese. bah humbug
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:39 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I don't suppose he has explained exactly where the atmosphere ends and the rockets stop working?
That's a good question for him, and I had really never thought of it in that context since the whole idea of "pushing" off atmosphere making a rocket work is so wrong at many levels. But you can't fix stupid.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:41 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
I know, I've finished my daily glass of red wine(whine) and no one brought me any cheese. bah humbug
Humbugs are solid, so throwing one will generate a propulsive force. Tantrums are abstract, so neither solid nor fluid. There's scope for a valuable experiment here. Try throwing a tantrum, and if it flings you backwards across the room then you'll know that abstract concepts have some of the attributes of a solid.

Dave
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Tony Szamboti: That is right
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:46 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Which rockets have you seen?

(video doesn't count, I mean with your own eyes)
Still like to know which ones s/he saw which seemed to go into the water, too. Presumably our intrepid OP saw them fly up, arc back downwards, and land with enough clarity where an astute observer would assume that water was the impact point...or landing zone...or whatever.

Or maybe s/he means that the water is actually above us! Explains why the sky is blue, of course.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:47 PM   #383
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Too late

Last edited by jeremyp; 18th April 2019 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:47 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
The video demonstrates that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Itís just that you canít handle the truth
It's entirely possible that JayUtah has more years of hands-on experience in the field than you do years on the planet.

I'll take JU for the win.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:48 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That's letting him off the hook.
I don't intend to let him off the hook. That's what his answer is, but I certainly don't accept it. It's just "I don't know," with extra steps.

If the argument is, "X doesn't exist," and the rebuttal is, "But Y is a consequent of X. If not by X, then whence Y?" and the answer is "I don't know," the argument fails and the rebuttal succeeds. The claimant is on the hook to show other alternative antecedents, and generally to prove that the alternatives are more favorable or parsimonious in context.

Here he just says we can't place limits on technology we don't know about, so it's not possible to categorically deny the existence of alternatives. It's still "I don't know." And he's still on the hook to show how "I don't know" is more parsimonious in context. I can't imagine how even the very concepts of parsimony and "I don't know" are compatible. By definition if you don't know the answer, it can't be the parsimonious explanation.

Very often this sort of argument becomes circular. He accepts axiomatically his own belief. And he is forced to accept observation that appears to be things like satellites and space stations. But to that sort, this pair of premises constitutes proof that there "must" be some secret alternative technology being employed. The observation must be explained, and the axiom cannot be violated, so that proves there "must" be alternative technology even if we can't immediately discern what it must look like.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:57 PM   #386
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I don't understand why we don't just do rocket launches from Australia so they can just fall into space. Seems like it would save a lot of fuel.
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Old 18th April 2019, 12:58 PM   #387
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I didn't think we got new posters like this anymore. Seems straight out of the mythical age of 2005.
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:08 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I didn't think we got new posters like this anymore. Seems straight out of the mythical age of 2005.
I can think of a few since I joined.
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:15 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Which rockets have you seen?

(video doesn't count, I mean with your own eyes)
I saw two space shuttle launches in my life. Both of them took off, I saw them go up, up up and then they landed many days later.

I want to know, if they didn't go off into space, where the hell did they go?

And if the complaint is that these were just low-earth orbit, then what about the Apollo missions? These guys were gone for days and days after take off before landing in ocean. Where were they if not in space?

They couldn't have been flying around in the atmosphere. If the physics of rockets in space, imagine the engineering to keep a craft floating around the atmosphere for 10 days?

Rockets flying in space is a far simpler explanation than any alternative.
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:22 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I saw two space shuttle launches in my life. Both of them took off, I saw them go up, up up and then they landed many days later.

I want to know, if they didn't go off into space, where the hell did they go?

And if the complaint is that these were just low-earth orbit, then what about the Apollo missions? These guys were gone for days and days after take off before landing in ocean. Where were they if not in space?

They couldn't have been flying around in the atmosphere. If the physics of rockets in space, imagine the engineering to keep a craft floating around the atmosphere for 10 days?

Rockets flying in space is a far simpler explanation than any alternative.
Not if the mindset is blonkers and "know" rockets can't work in a vacuum, similar to the Earth is flat, Apollo hoax, JFK conspiracy, need I continue?
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:22 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I saw two space shuttle launches in my life. Both of them took off, I saw them go up, up up and then they landed many days later.

I want to know, if they didn't go off into space, where the hell did they go?

And if the complaint is that these were just low-earth orbit, then what about the Apollo missions? These guys were gone for days and days after take off before landing in ocean. Where were they if not in space?

They couldn't have been flying around in the atmosphere. If the physics of rockets in space, imagine the engineering to keep a craft floating around the atmosphere for 10 days?

Rockets flying in space is a far simpler explanation than any alternative.
If you think about it, by the time those Apollo guys made it to space there was very little rocket still with them. Most of the rocket was indeed in the ocean as Gingervytes has claimed. OMG! Maybe Gingervytes is right!
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:28 PM   #392
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Okay so what if Theseus launches a rocket to space, but on the way to space every single piece is replaced so by the time it gets to space every single part of the rocket has been replaced?
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:42 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay so what if Theseus launches a rocket to space, but on the way to space every single piece is replaced so by the time it gets to space every single part of the rocket has been replaced?
You still end up with a rocket. A shiny new one. (Assuming that Gingervytes is wrong and rockets actually can make it to space).
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:45 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I don't suppose he has explained exactly where the atmosphere ends and the rockets stop working?

Just North of Watford, I expect.
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Old 18th April 2019, 01:50 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Just North of Watford, I expect.
You may be correct. Has there ever been a report of a working rocket in Milton Keynes?
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Old 18th April 2019, 02:19 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Right, buoyancy. Smoke does not rise. Smoke is a solid aerosol entrained in a column of heated air. In a perfectly quiescent environment, smoke will fall to the ground just as effectively as dust, or a handful of marbles.
And it will fall quite nicely when entrained with cool air. Iíve observed this while we were poking ceiling tiles out in a grocery store that had a fire on the roof. Some of the smoke got into the cool air of the false ceiling space, and drifted down when we opened the ceiling checking for extension.

That was because the smoke was in air that was denser than the ambient air mass. It had nothing to do with an atmospheric pressure gradient.
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Old 18th April 2019, 02:26 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I donít think space travel exists, but who know what other technology is out there. By they certainly do no go into space with rockets
Gingervytes, I repeat:

Iíve personally built (as part of a team), integrated, tested, observed the launch of, and operated spacecraft, including postflight testing. Your claim is observed to be wrong.

Any response? Or are you going to continue ignoring refutations like this one?

Ya know, if it was me, and I was getting my head handed to me by people who actually do spaceflight for a living, as well as an assortment of educated laymen, I would stop and ask myself if maybe I was wrong, and investigate the criticisms of my claims, because itís more important to me to get it right than to cling to my beliefs on an anonymous Internet forum. How about you? Would you like to learn something?
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Old 18th April 2019, 02:41 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
A rocket has no bullet to push off of. Rockets do not expel solid chunks. Solids do not move like fluids.
That is entirely irrelevant.
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Old 18th April 2019, 03:01 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Gas expands towards low pressure. A campfire smoke expands up rather that down because there is lower pressure at higher altitude
Utter poppycock.

Smoke expands up rather than down because the particles of which it is comprised are thrust upwards by thermal convection caused by the heat of the fire.

You can observe this when the smoke comes down again once it is clear of the updraft..


Try camping out more often. It will do you some good
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Old 18th April 2019, 03:23 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How do you explain GPS? Sat Phones?
ISS flyovers?
Satellites visible in the sky at the times they are scheduled to fly over?
He has not made any attempt to address questions I have asked either.

I do wonder if hey knows about the big gun experiments done in the 60's for the US army and Canadian space agency where they were looking to shoot small projectiles into orbit.
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