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Old 14th June 2019, 04:33 PM   #81
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Don't know what to make of Sam Harris. He seems to genunely want to understand people and portray both sides, as it were, and he has some valid points on a lot of topics, and he is good at challenging you and making you think, but I do think he's gone off the deep end when it comes to his views on migration and Islam.
Interesting you think that about Sam in relation to migration and Islam. Could you direct me to something reenforcing this view? The following is a short video where Sam talks about Islam being described as "the religion of peace" I find no fault with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKLV6rmLxE
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Old 14th June 2019, 09:15 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
...It seems that the SJWs are primarily hostile to Christianity, not religion in general. Also they seem quite supportive of Islam. Anything critical of Islam instantly becomes "Islamophobia". Note that the term Christianophobia is not part of our linguistic currency. Ever wonder why that is?
For years I didn't really understand (read "give a **** about") the Left's sympathies for Islam (especially over Christianity) until one day a guy explained it clearly in about 4 seconds. Fundamentally, what Islam wants and what the Left wants are the exact same thing. They both want capricious, omnipotent power and control over all constituents. The seeming insatiable need/desire to impose their will and oversee and dictate one's every thought, act, word, emotion and life runs rampant in both "movements". The notion of "freedom" doesn't appear to have any importance whatsoever with either one.

But forget all that, the really hilarious part is yet to come. And it's a blatant case of 'be careful what you wish for'. Beyond CNN and MSNBC and HuffPost, i.e. in reality, there is literally nothing the Left and Islam actually share in common beyond that power thirst. Islam isn't just right leaning, it is the extreme right. It's Allah™ or the highway buddy. They (and Allah™) hate gay marriage, trannies, women's rights, children's rights, freedom, bacon, Jews, etc. Seriously, where would both sides' disparate ideals meet exactly (beyond the totalitarian theme)? They won't and it's only going to get funnier and funnier the closer to that realization we get.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
WTF has happened to 'skepticism'
1. The same thing that happened to "Social Justice," the internet turned it into a fandom.

2. The same thing that happened to almost every quality, it only gets used in context now as a backhanded "Oh I thought you were a so&so" or "Oh I thought this was a place for such & such" style passive aggressive jab.

3. All the things skepticism came about to deal with turned hard into pure anti-intellectualism, leading to the post-truth world we now live in.

4. *Shrugs* I don't know... sunspots? Y2K?
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Old 14th June 2019, 11:16 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hume is going way back. When we say "skepticism" around here, we usually aren't really using the philosophical term. That causes a bit of confusion, but so be it. What we usually mean is anything associated with James Randi, CSICOP, and the magazine "The Skeptical Inquirer".
That's certainly not the case for me. While I think of Randi as an important promoter of the ideas of skepticism, it's simply a philosophical stance related to the limits of knowledge and the best ways to go about understanding the world given those limits.
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Old 14th June 2019, 11:19 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And who doesn't like torture? What better way is there to truly know someone?
I think it's worth pointing out that Harris has said that due to the potential for abuse we should have a policy of never allowing torture. He also says that there may be some exceptions wherein it makes sense to torture but when they come up they will be obvious that we don't need to explicitly allow them, and if we were to try to explicitly define those scenarios ahead of time it would open up potential for abuse so it's better to just have a complete ban.

Something like that.

To portray that viewpoint as "who doesn't like torture?" seems pretty dishonest to me.
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Old 15th June 2019, 07:21 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
"NPC" stands for "non-player character." It originated as a video game term for the dudes that follow the main dude around but aren't directly controlled by the gamer.
Nitpick, it predates computer/video games and originated in tabletop RPGs.
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Old 15th June 2019, 09:21 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
For years I didn't really understand (read "give a **** about") the Left's sympathies for Islam (especially over Christianity) until one day a guy explained it clearly in about 4 seconds.
Shouldn't that have been a clue that what was about to explained was nonsense?

Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
Fundamentally,
Interesting word choice. Go on . . .

Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
what Islam wants and what the Left wants are the exact same thing. They both want capricious, omnipotent power and control over all constituents. . . . The notion of "freedom" doesn't appear to have any importance whatsoever with either one.
I can fix that for you Harry, to help you avoid something like 3 or 4 logical fallacies:
"what Islam some crazy imams definitely want[s] and what the Left some fictitious and crazy caricature of what that guy seems to have thought 'the Left' is wants are the exact same thing."

Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
there is literally nothing the Left and Islam actually share in common
Hey, this^ bit is pretty much accurate!

Back to the original premise, if there is sympathy that "the Left" (whatever that means) has for Islam, it is for the individual rights of people who happen to be Muslim. There is no leftist love for the likes of bin Laden, Taliban, al Zarkawi, daesh, Khamenei, etc. Those are seen as analogous to Christianity's KKK, the many perpetrators of anti-semitic violence over centuries (deadly violence as recently as March in CA), Breivik, etc., who exist as anomalies to otherwise peacefully practicing Christians.

In my experience, liberals might be less willing to say "Islam is NOT a religion of peace" than is Sam Harris, but that's as deep as I see the divide here. The Left is wholly ready to condemn acts of Islamic terrorism and oppression at any time, they just also want to see our leaders calling out acts of Christian terrorism and oppression when they occur, too. Oh, and maybe we could stop persecuting the billion or so practicing Muslims who reject the violent tenets of their faith? Helping those people lead safe and peaceful lives – especially in the US where those rights are Constitutionally guaranteed – is all that "social justice" means.

Personally, I respect Harris' thoughts on this and see it as good critical thinking: Islam as described in the Quran is not a religion of peace. Despite that, there are about a billion Muslims in the world today who practice Islam as if it were a religion of peace. Those peaceful Muslims need the support of the rest of us to rout out the fundamentalists whack-jobs among their ranks, if for no other reason that Muslims are the primary victims of Islamic terrorism.
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Old 15th June 2019, 08:28 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Shouldn't that have been a clue that what was about to explained was nonsense?
Fine, I overstated the understatement a little. 44 seconds.

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
...I can fix that for you Harry, to help you avoid something like 3 or 4 logical fallacies:
"what Islam some crazy imams definitely want[s] and what the Left some fictitious and crazy caricature of what that guy seems to have thought 'the Left' is wants are the exact same thing."
You fixed my LF with a LF? Damn you!

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Hey, this^ bit is pretty much accurate.
Now we're gettin' somewhere.

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Back to the original premise, if there is sympathy that "the Left" (whatever that means) has for Islam, it is for the individual rights of people who happen to be Muslim. There is no leftist love for the likes of bin Laden, Taliban, al Zarkawi, daesh, Khamenei, etc. Those are seen as analogous to Christianity's KKK, the many perpetrators of anti-semitic violence over centuries (deadly violence as recently as March in CA), Breivik, etc., who exist as anomalies to otherwise peacefully practicing Christians...
I won't wholly disagree with that. As an aside, Breivik was not a Christian let alone a fundamentalist one. Which makes the fact he was branded one early on (and their knowing it would stick) either suspicious or pure incompetence. I mean, the press deliberately lying about it whilst knowing that such an attribution could be highly inflammatory to a huge number of people worldwide once they realize the truth, can't really be defended ethically/morally no matter how many people the idiot killed. And I surely don't give a **** about him, but for some reason I'm compelled to "defend" millions of members of a group I don't even belong to, kinda like you're doing. I'm agnostic atheist by the way.

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
In my experience, liberals might be less willing to say "Islam is NOT a religion of peace" than is Sam Harris, but that's as deep as I see the divide here. The Left is wholly ready to condemn acts of Islamic terrorism and oppression at any time, they just also want to see our leaders calling out acts of Christian terrorism and oppression when they occur, too. Oh, and maybe we could stop persecuting the billion or so practicing Muslims who reject the violent tenets of their faith? Helping those people lead safe and peaceful lives – especially in the US where those rights are Constitutionally guaranteed – is all that "social justice" means.
Trust me, I don't think we differ at all in opposition to terrorism of any sort.

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Personally, I respect Harris' thoughts on this and see it as good critical thinking: Islam as described in the Quran is not a religion of peace. Despite that, there are about a billion Muslims in the world today who practice Islam as if it were a religion of peace. Those peaceful Muslims need the support of the rest of us to rout out the fundamentalists whack-jobs among their ranks, if for no other reason that Muslims are the primary victims of Islamic terrorism.
Not so much me agreeing with you here as you're agreeing with me. One of the undersold points of my original post was the capricious nature of Islam and/or its "leadership" (worldwide). The fact the Quran lays out its hostilities towards anyone not a Muslim - despite the widespread disobedience by "a billion Muslims" in the present day to that specific tenet - can't be so easily dismissed given the otherwise ultra strict adherence to the book surely millions of Muslims have. Thus the notion "Islam is not a religion of peace but can be temporarily under these specific conditions" isn't anywhere near the 'comforting thought' it's pretending it wants to be. It's probably needless to point out that's not the premise nor practice of Christianity or <name of any other major religion> in the present day.
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Old 16th June 2019, 11:30 AM   #88
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[quote=HarryHenderson;12727570]As an aside, Breivik was not a Christian let alone a fundamentalist one.
Indeed it's murky to assign any particular ideology to a nutcase like him, and there's a whole lotta No True Scotsman to watch out for in those discussions. He was a bit Odinist, certainly also agnostic, but also culturally Christian (as claimed in his own manifesto). He was a Freemason and took the name Knights Templar for his made-up organization. He might have been a lousy Christian, but the dude was Christian.

Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
The fact the Quran lays out its hostilities towards anyone not a Muslim - despite the widespread disobedience by "a billion Muslims" in the present day to that specific tenet - can't be so easily dismissed given the otherwise ultra strict adherence to the book surely millions of Muslims have.
I'm with you – and Harris – on this. All religions are/can be violent, but Islam specifically instructs its followers to enact the violence.
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Old 16th June 2019, 02:18 PM   #89
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Quote:
His religious faith is Odinism. While Breivik was frequently described as a Christian fundamentalist", such assertion was disputed in a number of sources, and Breivik denied it, saying in letters to Norwegian newspaper Dagen that he "is not, and has never been a Christian", and that he thinks there are few things in the world more "pathetic" than "the Jesus-figure and his message". He said he prays and sacrifices to Odin, and identifies his religion as Odinism. However, in his manifesto Breivik claimed that he prayed to God in the days leading up to the attack.
Anders Behring Breivik: Religion
(Wikipedia)

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I'm with you – and Harris – on this. All religions are/can be violent, but Islam specifically instructs its followers to enact the violence.

You seem to think that the Bible doesn't.
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Old 17th June 2019, 03:38 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You seem to think that the Bible doesn't.
I hope not too much special pleading but Christians are supposed to supplant the teachings in the Old Testament with the "New Covenant" Jesus introduces in the Gospels. (That's just one reason why I'll never understand Christians using Leviticus to justify their nonsense.)

The books of the Old Testament include plenty of mayhem by Yahweh and yes, plenty of "smite thine enemy" kind of stuff. From the Gospels onward, however, I don't know of a single directive for us to do the smiting. It's all threatened by the Father and, in Revelation, Sword-Mouth Jesus. Violence is God's purview, not ours.

In the Quran, however, it is the faithful who are instructed to smite the infidels.

That's what I see as a fundamental difference between Christian violence and Muslim violence: Violent Christians are acting heretical to their faith. Peaceful Muslims are acting heretical to theirs.

(Standard caveats about not being a scholar of ancient texts or world religions and relative difference in influence of scripture on canon apply.)
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Old 18th June 2019, 05:55 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
Fundamentally, what Islam wants and what the Left wants are the exact same thing. They both want capricious, omnipotent power and control over all constituents. The seeming insatiable need/desire to impose their will and oversee and dictate one's every thought, act, word, emotion and life runs rampant in both "movements". The notion of "freedom" doesn't appear to have any importance whatsoever with either one.

But forget all that, the really hilarious part is yet to come. And it's a blatant case of 'be careful what you wish for'. Beyond CNN and MSNBC and HuffPost, i.e. in reality, there is literally nothing the Left and Islam actually share in common beyond that power thirst. Islam isn't just right leaning, it is the extreme right. It's Allah™ or the highway buddy. They (and Allah™) hate gay marriage, trannies, women's rights, children's rights, freedom, bacon, Jews, etc. Seriously, where would both sides' disparate ideals meet exactly (beyond the totalitarian theme)? They won't and it's only going to get funnier and funnier the closer to that realization we get.
The explanation that Islam and the Left want similar things(totalitarianism) is getting closer to the correct answer, but it isn't quite there. The politically correct language of today's society makes it difficult to discern true motivations. To get to the correct answer you'll need to understand the true nature and intentions of the modern Left. Remember, the modern Left is always trying to deceive you all the time about absolutely everything. But keep thinking about it and you'll get there.

Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Back to the original premise, if there is sympathy that "the Left" (whatever that means) has for Islam, it is for the individual rights of people who happen to be Muslim. There is no leftist love for the likes of bin Laden, Taliban, al Zarkawi, daesh, Khamenei, etc.
Hmmm....It I strange then that Google decided to honor, with one of their doodles, a woman named Yuri Kochiyama. Now Yuri was a "peace activist" and a believer in "civil rights", in other words a supporter of terrorism. She was also extremely anti-American and for this reason is beloved by the commissars at Goolag(aka Google). She said this about Osama bin Laden:

"I’m glad that you are curious why I consider Osama bin Laden as one of the people that I admire. To me, he is in the category of Malcolm X, Che Guevara, Patrice Lumumba, Fidel Castro, all leaders that I admire. They had much in common. Besides being strong leaders who brought consciousness to their people, they all had severe dislike for the US government and those who held power in the US. I think all of them felt the US government and its spokesmen were all arrogant, racist, hypocritical, self-righteous, and power hungry...You asked, "Should freedom fighters support him?” Freedom fighters all over the world, and not just in the Muslim world, don’t just support him; they revere him; they join him in battle. He is no ordinary leader or an ordinary Muslim. He may have once been surrounded with luxuries, but he adapted to the realities of a hunted “terrorist leader,” living in caves and doing without modern commodities…He went through heaven and hell with his men…"
Yuri Kochiyama

So one of the biggest and powerful companies in history is honoring a woman who admired bin Laden. That is the modern Left for you.
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Old 19th June 2019, 03:03 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think it's worth pointing out that Harris has said that due to the potential for abuse we should have a policy of never allowing torture. He also says that there may be some exceptions wherein it makes sense to torture but when they come up they will be obvious that we don't need to explicitly allow them, and if we were to try to explicitly define those scenarios ahead of time it would open up potential for abuse so it's better to just have a complete ban.

Something like that.

To portray that viewpoint as "who doesn't like torture?" seems pretty dishonest to me.
Yes his fiction is great. Except of course that such situations have never come up, but it is fun to justify torture with fiction. Makes it easier when the tortures are promoted to head the CIA.
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Old 19th June 2019, 03:06 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I hope not too much special pleading but Christians are supposed to supplant the teachings in the Old Testament with the "New Covenant" Jesus introduces in the Gospels. (That's just one reason why I'll never understand Christians using Leviticus to justify their nonsense.)

The books of the Old Testament include plenty of mayhem by Yahweh and yes, plenty of "smite thine enemy" kind of stuff. From the Gospels onward, however, I don't know of a single directive for us to do the smiting. It's all threatened by the Father and, in Revelation, Sword-Mouth Jesus. Violence is God's purview, not ours.

In the Quran, however, it is the faithful who are instructed to smite the infidels.
And of course to care for them within an islamic state as well. Now we can all admit that no real christian would ever be OK with a woman holding office and women having authority over men is right out.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Timothy 2:12.
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Old 19th June 2019, 08:10 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Hume is going way back. When we say "skepticism" around here, we usually aren't really using the philosophical term. That causes a bit of confusion, but so be it. What we usually mean is anything associated with James Randi, CSICOP, and the magazine "The Skeptical Inquirer".
Mmmmm, no.
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Old 19th June 2019, 08:13 AM   #95
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Also let's be fair. Things like Figboots and Alien Abductions and Healing Crystals seem slightly less important in world vaccine denial and "The Dems have a Child Pizza Parlor Sex Dungeon."
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:00 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
For years I didn't really understand (read "give a **** about") the Left's sympathies for Islam (especially over Christianity) until one day a guy explained it clearly in about 4 seconds. Fundamentally, what Islam wants and what the Left wants are the exact same thing. They both want capricious, omnipotent power and control over all constituents. The seeming insatiable need/desire to impose their will and oversee and dictate one's every thought, act, word, emotion and life runs rampant in both "movements". The notion of "freedom" doesn't appear to have any importance whatsoever with either one.
I don't think that's it at all. The far-left's sympathies for Islam have to do with a contradiction. Islam should, by all accounts, be anathema for them. However, Muslims in the west are a minority, and therefore must be protected and promoted as an underprilvileged group. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant; the effect is that they will refuse to criticize anything done by any Muslim, anywhere. If they find some doing bad things, it must be the fault of the western cisnormative straight white men.

It's a logical conclusion from their philosophy, taken too far.
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:03 AM   #97
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Is the fact that much of Progressivism talked itself into a corner that can't get out of because it can't function on any level beyond "victim ranking" really... like shocking news to anybody at this point?

Yeah the Left being a champion for Islam is right up there with the Japanese forming an alliance with a group of Genocidal White Supremacists back in WWII on the "Wow you really don't see the problem with this do you?" scale, but that's not new.
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:08 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is the fact that much of Progressivism talked itself into a corner that can't get out of because it can't function on any level beyond "victim ranking" really... like shocking news to anybody at this point?
No, it was pretty much inevitable. The level of influence they seem to have on the media and therefore on public perception, however, is slightly more so.
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:10 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course to care for them within an islamic state as well.
Well, the ones who survive this kind of stuff I suppose:

The Quran, chapter 9 (At-Tawba), verse 5:[53]
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
— translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali



Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Now we can all admit that no real christian would ever be OK with a woman holding office and women having authority over men is right out.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Timothy 2:12.
Maybe denying equal rights to women and slaying one's enemies aren't quite the same thing, you know? I mean, they're both awful, but the latter is significantly more murder-y.
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:18 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...the effect is that they will refuse to criticize anything done by any Muslim, anywhere.
You know what's cool in a thread on skepticism? Evidence.

How 'bout we define who and/or what the "Left" is, and then see if there exists evidence of criticism levied toward any Muslims? Let's commit to avoiding the #NoTrueLeftist fallacy in this endeavor.
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:26 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
How 'bout we define who and/or what the "Left" is, and then see if there exists evidence of criticism levied toward any Muslims?
You might have noticed, in your haste, that I said "far-left". I don't think this is a characteristic shared by the moderates.

And what kind of evidence do you want? A graph? I'm sure you haven't lived under a rock these last few years. Hell, there's even a few articles written about how feminist Islam is!
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Old 19th June 2019, 09:41 AM   #102
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And herein with find yet another problem with tribalism... "technical" deniability.

You'd have to your head in a bucket of sand at the Marianas Trench to honestly think that the Left isn't protective of Islam and hostile to criticism of it.

But since this is a group of shared ideology, nobody ever said it in those exact words which according to internet argumentative logic means it's not true because inference and... not being intentionally obtuse is "gasp" a strawman!

That's the best thing about tribalism. Everyone can say anything they want, but nobody has to go "on record."
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:25 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Is the fact that much of Progressivism talked itself into a corner that can't get out of because it can't function on any level beyond "victim ranking" really... like shocking news to anybody at this point?

Yeah the Left being a champion for Islam is right up there with the Japanese forming an alliance with a group of Genocidal White Supremacists back in WWII on the "Wow you really don't see the problem with this do you?" scale, but that's not new.
Nice rant, bro.
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Old 19th June 2019, 10:37 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Nice rant, bro.
Expert riposte, sis.
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Old 19th June 2019, 11:01 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You'd have to your head in a bucket of sand at the Marianas Trench
Cute, but...

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
to honestly think that the Left isn't protective of Islam and hostile to criticism of it.
Who is the Left? What do you mean by protective of and hostile to the criticism of wrt Islam?

Are we talking about American Left, European Left, Castro left? Do we mean protective of the rights of Americans to practice Islam as guaranteed by the 1st amendment? Does this have anything to do with the rigorous debates surrounding Quranic interpretations of Islam as a "religion of peace"?

If we're not careful to define such things in our discourse here, then we're doing little more than laughing at a caricature of something that is irrelevant/doesn't exist.

Heck, I'm pretty far to the left of most Americans and I simultaneously agree with these statements:
  • Islamophobia is a bad thing that results in discrimination and violence toward Muslims
  • The US Constitution protects the rights of citizens to practice Islam in accordance with US law
  • Islam is not a religion of peace and the world would be far better off without it
  • Political leaders should feel free to use terms like Islamic terrorism when it occurs but they are hypocrites if they don't apply the term Christian terrorism to analogous events
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Old 19th June 2019, 12:17 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Maybe denying equal rights to women and slaying one's enemies aren't quite the same thing, you know? I mean, they're both awful, but the latter is significantly more murder-y.
Well of course there is the slay all the men, boys and women but you can keep the girls as rape slaves, that is proper biblical war right there.
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Old 19th June 2019, 01:18 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Heck, I'm pretty far to the left of most Americans and I simultaneously agree with these statements:
  • Islamophobia is a bad thing that results in discrimination and violence toward Muslims
  • The US Constitution protects the rights of citizens to practice Islam in accordance with US law
  • Islam is not a religion of peace and the world would be far better off without it
  • Political leaders should feel free to use terms like Islamic terrorism when it occurs but they are hypocrites if they don't apply the term Christian terrorism to analogous events
I'm with you there.

I'd just prefer we try to look a little closer at such 'analogous events' and use terrorism in the right context and not as a way to get back at war drum beating right-wingers who have used it as a scare word for years.

Someone simply being a member of a religion doesn't qualify the act he committed as religion-influenced terrorism and too often that's a point lost on the general public. Lot of stuff gets conflated.
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Old 20th June 2019, 06:59 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well of course there is the slay all the men, boys and women but you can keep the girls as rape slaves, that is proper biblical war right there.
In which of the Gospels would we find Jesus instructing his disciples to do this?
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Old 20th June 2019, 07:00 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Someone simply being a member of a religion doesn't qualify the act he committed as religion-influenced terrorism . . .
This is both self-evident aaaand something I'd enjoy debating over a couple of pints.
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Old 20th June 2019, 07:50 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Nice rant, bro.
It's funny, dismissing opinions I disagree with as rants was never a skill I felt to develop.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:05 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's funny, dismissing opinions I disagree with as rants was never a skill I felt to develop.
Sometimes I just look at a post and think “Where the **** do I start? and “Do I really want to get into some ****** back and forth with this person?” and I decide no. But I still have to vent at ****** bigotry, don’t I. However this place being filled with brighter, clearer and more patient heads someone invariably shows up and dissects it, as they did here. Probably not ideal but there you go.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:13 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Sometimes I just look at a post and think “Where the **** do I start? and “Do I really want to get into some ****** back and forth with this person?” and I decide no. But I still have to vent at ****** bigotry, don’t I. However this place being filled with brighter, clearer and more patient heads someone invariably shows up and dissects it, as they did here. Probably not ideal but there you go.
Ahhh calling me a bigot. Why did I know that would be the card played.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:21 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ahhh calling me a bigot. Why did I know that would be the card played.
Hats, sizing etc.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:24 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Hats, sizing etc.
*Shrug* I'm not the one defending burqas and beheading homosexuals because the group in question ranks below me on some made up imaginary "Who's victim to who" list and don't I think it's "proper" for me to judge them.

You'll hem and haw and act faux-outraged, but... well hats and sizing I suppose.

Oh and if your response is gonna be a huffy "SHOW ME WERE I DEFENDED THOSE THINGS!..." let's remember who took issue with who first. I said Progressives are hesitant to attack Islam for things they openly attack Western Christianity for. If you took umbridge with that, you're the sliding the shoe on ti see if it fits, not me.

Long story short if you aren't one of them people defending Islam but happy to attack Western Christianity for less crimes... I wasn't talking to you.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 20th June 2019 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:28 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrug* I'm not the one defending burqas and beheading homosexuals because the group in question ranks below me on some made up imaginary "Who's victim to who" list and don't I think it's "proper" for me to judge them.

You'll hem and haw and act faux-outraged, but... well hats and sizing I suppose.

Oh and if you're response is gonna be a huffy "SHOW ME WERE I DEFENDED THOSE THINGS!..." let's remember who took issue with who first. I said Progressives are hesitant to attack Islam for things they openly attack Western Christianity for. If you took umbridge with that, you're the sliding the shoe on ti see if it fits, not me.
Think appropriate card here is, “straw man.” Sorry not huffy. Hope you are holding up similarly.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:32 AM   #116
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Never mind

I missed a few pages.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:37 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Think appropriate card here is, “straw man.” Sorry not huffy. Hope you are holding up similarly.
*Sighs* You know what... let's reset this okay?

I stand by my statement that a lot of Western Progressives/Liberals are more willing to "attack" (in the argumentative sense) Western Christianity for things which Islam does to greater (often far greater) degrees with more (often far more) frequency and I find this problematic and I agree with Belz that the only reason it seems to be this way is that is a vague concept of Islam somehow becoming the victim or underdog in the discussion.

*Full sincerity* What is your response?
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:43 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* You know what... let's reset this okay?

I stand by my statement that a lot of Western Progressives/Liberals are more willing to "attack" (in the argumentative sense) Western Christianity for things which Islam does to greater (often far greater) degrees with more (often far more) frequency and I find this problematic and I agree with Belz that the only reason it seems to be this way is that is a vague concept of Islam somehow becoming the victim or underdog in the discussion.

*Full sincerity* What is your response?
Referring you to the Shrike and post 105, which you seem to have passed over in favour of my content free snark, and me going back to sleep. Was fun.
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Old 20th June 2019, 08:46 AM   #119
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Kind of a non-sequitur but:

Personally, I think skepticism is just suffering the same problem as the rest of society, at least in the US. We are in a time of increased partisanship and folks that are somewhat on the skeptics spectrum are all backsliding a bit. We seem to be unable to engage the tools of skepticism quite as well these days on account of our tribal instincts. Either that or this and other "skeptics" forums and groups have attracted a lot of folks that never were that skeptical to begin with.
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Old 20th June 2019, 09:33 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Who is the Left?
A disparate group of people who are considered left of center in terms of political views based on their various opinions on a range of issues.

Also, you do remember that the comment was "far left", right?
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