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Old 1st July 2019, 10:14 PM   #201
tanabear
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The WMD theory in the Iraq War is a pretty weak conspiracy theory, as it really didn't violate much background knowledge - it was just a scam perpetrated on the world.
What exactly is a weak conspiracy theory? Is this a new Skeptic term? It was not only the lies about WMD, but it also included falsehoods about Saddam's links to Osama and Al-Qaeda. This false narrative was widely believed by the American people. This would seem like a strong conspiracy theory to me. Plus, it led to the complete decimation of an entire country. This seems a lot more consequential than someone wondering if the moon landings were faked.


Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
CTs are perpetuated by statements which appear convincing, but are erroneous or rebutted by adding context, such as "the WTC collapsed even though it was designed to withstand collisions with airplanes", neglecting to mention that the planes the archictects had in mind were smaller and that they would be flying far more slowly and without much fuel left in their tanks. When corrected on this, CTers tend to ignore the contrary evidence, or try to smear the as "in on it" or corrupt or ignorant in some other way.
Is this really what they had in mind?

"The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting".
Frank DeMartini, WTC Project Manager

A white paper in the files of the Port Authority state,

"The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707óDC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact."

So "fully loaded", "large jetliner" and "600mph" implies small planes, not fully loaded and traveling slow. Skeptics are best at semantics.

Of course, to say that the buildings "collapsed" is really a misnomer. The official explanation is "crush-down crush-up."

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
"Conspiracy theory" seems to mostly or only be used about private actors, so no, the WMD mess wouldn't be called a CT. Which makes sense. A CT is, pretty much by definition, an alternative narrative that challenges what you love to call "the official story"..
So you are admitting that the highly loaded term "conspiracy theory" is meant only to apply to people questioning official narratives. Thus a "conspiracy theory" is not necessarily a false belief, it is just a contrary one to the powers that be.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:26 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Q.E.D.
Is skepticism meant to have a purpose? And if you desire to solve problems, you should be on a problem solving forum and not a skepticism forum.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:32 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is skepticism meant to have a purpose?
You don't think anything has a purpose. So nobody cares about your opinion of skepticism's purpose.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:37 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is skepticism meant to have a purpose? And if you desire to solve problems, you should be on a problem solving forum and not a skepticism forum.
Of course. Otherwise why engage in it?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:50 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Of course. Otherwise why engage in it?
Because your axioms demand that you engage in purposeless activities. This is how you know they're good axioms.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:39 AM   #206
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Question

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Of course. Otherwise why engage in it?
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't engage in skepticism. But that doesn't answer if it has a purpose.

I see it as a tool. Which means this is the hammer forum. And yes, there are jobs a hammer isn't appropriate. But if you want to know how to best do a job, go to the fix-it forum. This is the hammer forum. And don't act like the hammer fetishists are out of place on the hammer forum .

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 2nd July 2019 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:40 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
What exactly is a weak conspiracy theory?
I donít know what it is exactly, because itís not an exact thing. Itís a general concept made by applying the general idea of weakness to the general idea of a conspiracy theory.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Is this a new Skeptic term?
This is not a new skeptic term, itís just an adjective modifying a noun.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
It was not only the lies about WMD, but it also included falsehoods about Saddam's links to Osama and Al-Qaeda. This false narrative was widely believed by the American people. This would seem like a strong conspiracy theory to me. Plus, it led to the complete decimation of an entire country. This seems a lot more consequential than someone wondering if the moon landings were faked.
A conspiracy theory is not just any theory that is false. There has to be a conspiratorial element to it in the imaginations of those holding to the conspiracy theory (although it's possible to have a conspiracy theory in which the conspiracy actually exists, but it would have to be labeled as such - "a true conspiracy theory" - because the generally accepted meaning of the term is that the conspiracy doesn't exist). This is especially true in the skeptical community which understands the vast odds against, for instance, the conspiracy theories behind chemtrails, anti-vaccine, etc.

The conspiracy behind the US government's attempt to prove that Saddam had WMD, that conspiracy, however, actually did exist. The government really was trying to pull a fast one. So it's not a conspiracy theory in the classic sense. Normally, in a conspiracy theory, the conspiracy doesn't really exist. That's why I called it a weak conspiracy theory.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:33 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The manner in which she uses it is mean-spirited.

The entire British concept of class is kind of gross. The conflation of "low" class with low morals and low intelligence is hateful and bigoted.

I'm not sure why you'd want to use the term the way Mrs. Slocombe does, but I guess at least we're clear about how you're using it.

The things that give you concern are a source of wonder to me.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:38 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The things that give you concern are a source of wonder to me. : confused :
Expressions of bigotry and hate are concerning. Why does this concept confuse you?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:35 PM   #210
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I am surprised to find the ancient tradition of "comedy of manners" is such unfamiliar territory that it counts as "general skepticism and the paranormal"!

Mrs Slocombe, although a great personality, is not to be taken seriously. Or without buying her a few drinks first.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:08 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I am surprised to find the ancient tradition of "comedy of manners" is such unfamiliar territory that it counts as "general skepticism and the paranormal"!

Mrs Slocombe, although a great personality, is not to be taken seriously. Or without buying her a few drinks first.
Oh, I agree about Mrs Slocombe. The reason she's funny is because she's a well-drawn caricature.

As far as I can tell, Thor actually does think "lower class" people have lower intelligence.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:57 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't see why it is regarded as nigh impossible.
It isn't. But that was how you described it. And the way you argue suggests you want to make it so.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:02 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Even atheists get more reluctant the closer you get to the date of delivery.
Not this atheist. I'm OK with abortion up to and after birth.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:00 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
What exactly is a weak conspiracy theory?
Conspiracy theory
Quote:
A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful actors, often political in motivation, when other explanations are more probable.
So a 'weak' conspiracy theory is one which actually is probable. The more likely the conspiracy the weaker the 'theory', and a conspiracy which is known fact is not a theory at all.

Quote:
"The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting".
Frank DeMartini, WTC Project Manager
Engineer shilling for construction company gets sums wrong. Who'd have thunk it! Was he the same guy who swore the Tacoma Narrows bridge could handle 40mph winds?

Just because someone in authority swears something can't happen doesn't mean it's a conspiracy theory when it does. Even the best scientists, engineers, and policy makers don't always account for everything - and everyone knows it. We expect things to not go exactly according to plan. As for the actual 9/11 conspirators, I bet even they (the surviving ones at least) were surprised by how successful they were. But to suggest that the event could not have happened because some engineer previously said the buildings were airliner-proof - that is a conspiracy theory.

Quote:
So you are admitting that the highly loaded term "conspiracy theory" is meant only to apply to people questioning official narratives. Thus a "conspiracy theory" is not necessarily a false belief, it is just a contrary one to the powers that be.
Wrong. A conspiracy theory is a belief that is contrary to facts and logic. When the 'official narrative' is highly suspect, believing otherwise is not a conspiracy theory. But if the 'otherwise' is "aliens did it" - then it is.

Yes, the term "conspiracy theory" is highly loaded - but for good reason. When a 'theory' isn't a true scientific theory but just wild-assed speculation, and when the 'conspiracy' has to involve more and more people to keep ahead of the facts, neither word is being used correctly. But that's how they use them, so...
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Old 2nd July 2019, 09:27 PM   #215
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My working definition of conspiracy theory:

An unverified or discredited alternate account or narrative of an event involving conspiring parties

grammar could maybe use some work.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:59 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not saying you should or shouldn't engage in skepticism. But that doesn't answer if it has a purpose.
I didn't claim you were.

But when you do engage in skepticism you are doing so for a reason. That's pretty much true by definition.

Quote:
I see it as a tool. Which means this is the hammer forum. And yes, there are jobs a hammer isn't appropriate. But if you want to know how to best do a job, go to the fix-it forum. This is the hammer forum. And don't act like the hammer fetishists are out of place on the hammer forum .
This doesn't make any sense. If it's a tool then it serves some purpose and it's meaningful to point out when you are using it counter to that purpose.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:10 AM   #217
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The purpose of skepticism is to serve as a bridge between scientific literacy and consumer protection.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:08 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I didn't claim you were.

But when you do engage in skepticism you are doing so for a reason. That's pretty much true by definition.



This doesn't make any sense. If it's a tool then it serves some purpose and it's meaningful to point out when you are using it counter to that purpose.
I thought we were using purpose in the same way. Let me clarify.Back to the hammer analogy. A hammer's purpose is to hammer things. It's purpose isn't to fix or build things. So when I hammer the crap out of the thing you brought to the hammer forum and it isn't closer to being fixed, it is your fault for bringing it to the hammer forum.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:59 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Is this really what they had in mind?
If your source is correct, I stand corrected on the loaded part. My point still stands, obviously: the WTC wasn't just "built to withstand planes!!!!", but specifically smaller planes that got lost in the fog and hit the building as it came in for landing. It was just an example anyways, I could think of countless others.

Quote:
Skeptics are best at semantics.
Are we really. You seem to be much better at it than me.

Quote:
Of course, to say that the buildings "collapsed" is really a misnomer. The official explanation is "crush-down crush-up."
Speaking of...

Quote:
So you are admitting that...
No, you just made a gigantic strawman, like all the videos I see on YouTube where "x ADMITS that y" when if you watch the video they've just said something ordinary and innocuous .
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:02 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Engineer shilling for construction company gets sums wrong. Who'd have thunk it! Was he the same guy who swore the Tacoma Narrows bridge could handle 40mph winds?

Just because someone in authority swears something can't happen doesn't mean it's a conspiracy theory when it does.
For some reason next to no one seems to think something sinister happened when the Titanic sank, even though it was built to withstand impacts with ice bergs. I love how CTers selectively apply logic and reason.

Quote:
Yes, the term "conspiracy theory" is highly loaded - but for good reason.
It's like "liar", "scammer", and "adulterer". No scammer likes to be told they are a scammer, because, well, it's a bad thing to begin with. Like conspiracy theories.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:41 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I thought we were using purpose in the same way. Let me clarify.Back to the hammer analogy. A hammer's purpose is to hammer things. It's purpose isn't to fix or build things. So when I hammer the crap out of the thing you brought to the hammer forum and it isn't closer to being fixed, it is your fault for bringing it to the hammer forum.
A hammer is an inanimate collection of matter. It has no purpose. The purpose dwells in the intent of the user, presumably a human but possibly an animal. Chimps might use a hammer, but probably not for anything we'd welcome them doing. They should be discouraged from hammers.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 11:15 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A hammer is an inanimate collection of matter. It has no purpose. The purpose dwells in the intent of the user, presumably a human but possibly an animal. Chimps might use a hammer, but probably not for anything we'd welcome them doing. They should be discouraged from hammers.
There are about three different uses of "purpose" going on here and I'm shaping my posts around specific users. For your needs, please respond to the post where I say skepticism has no purpose
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Old 3rd July 2019, 11:23 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are about three different uses of "purpose" going on here and I'm shaping my posts around specific users. For your needs, please respond to the post where I say skepticism has no purpose
I fear I cannot respond to posts not infused with recognizable purpose. Posts which are pounded out by brute instinct, like a chimp with a hammer, can neither generate nor receive proper meaning.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 11:36 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
For some reason next to no one seems to think something sinister happened when the Titanic sank, even though it was built to withstand impacts with ice bergs. I love how CTers selectively apply logic and reason.
You underestimate the CTers. I've run into several Titanic-related conspiracy theories in the past. IIRC, the main ones are: 1) That the Titanic never actually sank; White Star was committing insurance fraud by sinking the Olympic, which had already been damaged, and 2) That J.P. Morgan intentionally had the ship sunk to kill business rivals; I think that one is actually part of the Qanon CT now, so it might be somewhat popular now, considering how that crapshow has grown.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:01 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Now clowns like Jordan Peterson, Milo Whathisface, and Ben Shapiro claiming to be skeptics? Yeah those guys are not skeptics. They are attention-whore contrarians whose arguments do not hold water. Their Gish-galloping alone should tip off any good critical thinker that they are not honest intellectuals.

You'll love this one:

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I AGREE
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:44 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You'll love this one:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Gets pretty salty when his ******** is called out by an old school journalist.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:44 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Excuse me, but I won't be sat sitting here while people are slagging off on Mrs Slocombe! She was a great lady, of extreme refinement, and I am unanimous in that!
If by unanimous you mean alone.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:59 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
If by unanimous you mean alone.
Does every post of playful irony or sarcasm require a smiley like some exaggerated laughter track?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:14 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oh, I agree about Mrs Slocombe. The reason she's funny is because she's a well-drawn caricature.

As far as I can tell, Thor actually does think "lower class" people have lower intelligence.

You certainly draw a long bow in your most ineffective attempts to score a bullseye theprestige.

I say - "The more common a person is the less sense is evident." as a humorous observation regarding the word "common sense"

You then, claiming ignorance of the use of the word "common" in this context, ask for illustration.

I suggest the character of Mrs Slocombe uses the word in a derogatory manner and you jump on this, because she is cast as pretentious bigot with delusions of grandeur, as proof of my low opinion of so called "lower class" people. Oh boy!
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:35 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I suggest the character of Mrs Slocombe uses the word in a derogatory manner and you jump on this, because she is cast as pretentious bigot with delusions of grandeur, as proof of my low opinion of so called "lower class" people. Oh boy!
Your use of a derogatory term that is famously used by a pretentious bigot with delusions of grandeur make you look like a pretentious bigot with delusions of grandeur.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 08:45 PM   #231
Sideroxylon
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You certainly draw a long bow in your most ineffective attempts to score a bullseye theprestige.

I say - "The more common a person is the less sense is evident." as a humorous observation regarding the word "common sense"

You then, claiming ignorance of the use of the word "common" in this context, ask for illustration.

I suggest the character of Mrs Slocombe uses the word in a derogatory manner and you jump on this, because she is cast as pretentious bigot with delusions of grandeur, as proof of my low opinion of so called "lower class" people. Oh boy!
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Old 3rd July 2019, 10:38 PM   #232
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Your use of a derogatory term that is famously used by a pretentious bigot with delusions of grandeur make you look like a pretentious bigot with delusions of grandeur.
Mrs Slocombe was a very nice lady and doesn't deserve to be called such horrible things. And because apparently so many people are lacking a sense of humor and need things explained to them the joke was that Mrs Slocombe was herself dead common, she just didn't realize it.

If you cannot refrain from being rude about senior staff such as the head of the Ladies Department then you can eat your dinner -- I mean, lunch! -- at another table.

Juniors these days!
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Old 4th July 2019, 07:35 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are about three different uses of "purpose" going on here and I'm shaping my posts around specific users. For your needs, please respond to the post where I say skepticism has no purpose
I think TM understands the point I was making better than you seem to.

When people engage in skepticism they are doing so to achieve some ends. The success of their skepticism can they be measured against those ends.

I don't think anything has purpose in any sense other than this.
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Old 4th July 2019, 08:38 AM   #234
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think TM understands the point I was making better than you seem to.

When people engage in skepticism they are doing so to achieve some ends. The success of their skepticism can they be measured against those ends.

I don't think anything has purpose in any sense other than this.
If something can't be solved with skepticism, don't get upset when people use skepticism on it at the skepticism forum. This is a forum devoted to the means, and not about achieving some end.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:09 AM   #235
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Nothing has a purpose. Nothing at all. We're all going to die and then the sun will explode.

/thread


EDIT: I'm being tongue-in-cheek. I felt I should clarify.

Last edited by isissxn; 4th July 2019 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 4th July 2019, 01:03 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The conspiracy behind the US government's attempt to prove that Saddam had WMD, that conspiracy, however, actually did exist. The government really was trying to pull a fast one. So it's not a conspiracy theory in the classic sense. Normally, in a conspiracy theory, the conspiracy doesn't really exist. That's why I called it a weak conspiracy theory.
This is quite a convoluted explanation. There are two things here. One, there was a conspiracy, if you wish to use that term, by high-ranking officials in the US government and elsewhere to sell the Iraq war to the American people. Two, what they were selling was a conspiracy theory about Iraq, WMD and links to Al-Qaeda. It is this conspiracy theory that I am referring too. This conspiracy did not exist. Saddam Hussein was not in league with Osama bin Laden to transfer WMD which could lead to mushroom clouds over American cities.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Just because someone in authority swears something can't happen doesn't mean it's a conspiracy theory when it does. Even the best scientists, engineers, and policy makers don't always account for everything - and everyone knows it. We expect things to not go exactly according to plan...But to suggest that the event could not have happened because some engineer previously said the buildings were airliner-proof - that is a conspiracy theory.
I was specifically responding to Safe-Keeper who stated that all the architects assumed it would be a small plane, flying slowly and low on fuel. I was showing that not all of them stated this.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Wrong. A conspiracy theory is a belief that is contrary to facts and logic. When the 'official narrative' is highly suspect, believing otherwise is not a conspiracy theory. But if the 'otherwise' is "aliens did it" - then it is.
This might be your definition, but I am referring to how the term is used in practice. In practice, it is primarily used to indicate that someone has outlandish beliefs and is paranoid or insane. The term simply exists as a pejorative to avoid debate.

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
If your source is correct, I stand corrected on the loaded part. My point still stands, obviously: the WTC wasn't just "built to withstand planes!!!!", but specifically smaller planes that got lost in the fog and hit the building as it came in for landing. It was just an example anyways, I could think of countless others.
So a large jet airliner (Boeing 707óDC 8) traveling at 600mph is a small plane flying slow?

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Speaking of....
This is the explanation given Zdenek Bazant and others. "The gravity-driven progressive collapse of a tower consists of two phasesóthe crush-down, followed by crush-up."

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
No, you just made a gigantic strawman, like all the videos I see on YouTube where "x ADMITS that y" when if you watch the video they've just said something ordinary and innocuous .
You wrote: "Conspiracy theory" seems to mostly or only be used about private actors, so no, the WMD mess wouldn't be called a CT. Which makes sense. A CT is, pretty much by definition, an alternative narrative that challenges what you love to call "the official story."

So can the official story ever be a conspiracy theory?
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Old 4th July 2019, 02:45 PM   #237
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Mrs Slocombe was a very nice lady and doesn't deserve to be called such horrible things. And because apparently so many people are lacking a sense of humor and need things explained to them the joke was that Mrs Slocombe was herself dead common, she just didn't realize it.

If you cannot refrain from being rude about senior staff such as the head of the Ladies Department then you can eat your dinner -- I mean, lunch! -- at another table.

Juniors these days!

Well said TragicMonkey and thanks. The lack of humour of some is troublesome.

There is a tendency for some, to want to pick a fight with another poster they may see as foe. In a desperate effort to pick up crumbs, they may see as potential weapons to make a strike, they sometimes pretend ignorance that something was said in jest.
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Last edited by Thor 2; 4th July 2019 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 4th July 2019, 02:49 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Does every post of playful irony or sarcasm require a smiley like some exaggerated laughter track?
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Old 4th July 2019, 02:53 PM   #239
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well said TragicMonkey and thanks. The lack of humour of some is troublesome.

There is a tendency for some, to want to pick a fight with another poster they may see as foe. In a desperate effort to pick up crumbs, they may see as potential weapons to make a strike, they sometimes pretend ignorance that something was said in jest.
Oh, I don't care about any of that. I just really like Are You Being Served. Mrs Slocombe is my spirit animal. When I did the sacrament of Confirmation in the Catholic Church I told them I chose the name Stephen after the sainted king of Hungary but actually it was for Captain Peacock.
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Old 4th July 2019, 04:59 PM   #240
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
This might be your definition, but I am referring to how the term is used in practice. In practice, it is primarily used to indicate that someone has outlandish beliefs and is paranoid or insane.

The term simply exists as a pejorative to avoid debate.
I have seen it used that way, but not by skeptics.

We have a whole sub-forum here devoted to conspiracy theories, and we are constantly engaging in debate with the 'theorists'. The patience of skeptics when dealing with people with outlandish, paranoid or completely insane beliefs is amazing. And in the end it's almost always the conspiracy theorists themselves who try to avoid debate.

Logically Fallacious: Conspiracy Theory
Quote:
(also known as: canceling hypothesis, canceling hypotheses, cover-ups)

Description: Explaining that your claim cannot be proven or verified because the truth is being hidden and/or evidence destroyed by a group of two or more people. When that reason is challenged as not being true or accurate, the challenge is often presented as just another attempt to cover up the truth and presented as further evidence that the original claim is true.
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