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Old 4th July 2019, 05:44 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
This is quite a convoluted explanation. There are two things here. One, there was a conspiracy, if you wish to use that term, by high-ranking officials in the US government and elsewhere to sell the Iraq war to the American people. Two, what they were selling was a conspiracy theory about Iraq, WMD and links to Al-Qaeda. It is this conspiracy theory that I am referring too. This conspiracy did not exist. Saddam Hussein was not in league with Osama bin Laden to transfer WMD which could lead to mushroom clouds over American cities.
Sure.
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Old 5th July 2019, 02:17 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
What exactly is a weak conspiracy theory? Is this a new Skeptic term? It was not only the lies about WMD, but it also included falsehoods about Saddam's links to Osama and Al-Qaeda. This false narrative was widely believed by the American people. This would seem like a strong conspiracy theory to me. Plus, it led to the complete decimation of an entire country. This seems a lot more consequential than someone wondering if the moon landings were faked.




Is this really what they had in mind?

"The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting".
Frank DeMartini, WTC Project Manager

A white paper in the files of the Port Authority state,

"The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707óDC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact."

So "fully loaded", "large jetliner" and "600mph" implies small planes, not fully loaded and traveling slow. Skeptics are best at semantics.

Of course, to say that the buildings "collapsed" is really a misnomer. The official explanation is "crush-down crush-up."



So you are admitting that the highly loaded term "conspiracy theory" is meant only to apply to people questioning official narratives. Thus a "conspiracy theory" is not necessarily a false belief, it is just a contrary one to the powers that be.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=70154
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Old 6th July 2019, 05:48 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If something can't be solved with skepticism, don't get upset when people use skepticism on it at the skepticism forum. This is a forum devoted to the means, and not about achieving some end.
If someone on the hammer forum goes to the louve and starts smashing things with a hammer, I think other people on the hammer forum can reasonably ask him why he's doing that. Saying "hammers are good at smashing stuff" isn't a good reason, no matter where he happens to be.

Anyway, this exchange between us began with you saying:

Quote:
Is skepticism meant to have a purpose? And if you desire to solve problems, you should be on a problem solving forum and not a skepticism forum.
And yes, my claim is that every act of skepticism has a purpose. Examining that purpose can offer insight.
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Old 6th July 2019, 06:36 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If someone on the hammer forum goes to the louve and starts smashing things with a hammer,
Then it is good that we are not talking about hammering outside of the hammer forum.
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Old 6th July 2019, 08:29 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then it is good that we are not talking about hammering outside of the hammer forum.
Can it be? Is the whole perplexingly frustrating body of your work meant solely with the grand purpose of leading here, to this, to the declaration that it has now come upon us: it's Hammer Time? And that we can't touch this?
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Old 6th July 2019, 06:13 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then it is good that we are not talking about hammering outside of the hammer forum.
I have no idea what this comment is supposed to mean.
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Old 6th July 2019, 06:15 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I have no idea what this comment is supposed to mean.
You talked about someone smashing things at the Louvre. No one mentioned taking hammering outside the hammer forum. So any point based on the Louvre is moot.
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Old 6th July 2019, 06:49 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You talked about someone smashing things at the Louvre. No one mentioned taking hammering outside the hammer forum. So any point based on the Louvre is moot.
There is no goddamn "hammer forum" in the real world. There's no part of life where going "I'm just not going to look into whether or not this is true" is a good thing.

I await whatever intentionally dense nonsense your character is gonna vomit out.
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Old 6th July 2019, 06:51 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There is no goddamn "hammer forum" in the real world. There's no part of life where going "I'm just not going to look into whether or not this is true" is a good thing.

I await whatever intentionally dense nonsense your character is gonna vomit out.
This forum is a hammer forum
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Old 6th July 2019, 06:53 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This forum is a hammer forum
Yes because there's still a lot of people who have to be told "Stop believing in made up crap."
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Old 7th July 2019, 02:00 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You talked about someone smashing things at the Louvre. No one mentioned taking hammering outside the hammer forum. So any point based on the Louvre is moot.
I thought the hammer forum, like this one, was meant to be populated by real people. Persumably those real people are talking about hammers. So one of them goes to the Louve and starts hammering things. Then he comes on the hammer forum and talks about his choice of hammer for that job.

Some people on the hammer forum might say he made a poor choice of hammer because, for instance, a larger one would be more efficient. Someone else might say actually it would be better if he had chosen a nerf hammer because then he'd have done less damage to the art.

You seem to think that the first comment is acceptable but the second is not, and I can't understand how you delineate hammer discussions in order to make that distinction.

Furthermore, even if you can explain some coherent way to limit the discussion in that way, I don't think it's worthwhile to do so with respect to skepticism.
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Old 7th July 2019, 04:46 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I thought the hammer forum, like this one, was meant to be populated by real people. Persumably those real people are talking about hammers. So one of them goes to the Louve and starts hammering things. Then he comes on the hammer forum and talks about his choice of hammer for that job.

Some people on the hammer forum might say he made a poor choice of hammer because, for instance, a larger one would be more efficient. Someone else might say actually it would be better if he had chosen a nerf hammer because then he'd have done less damage to the art.

You seem to think that the first comment is acceptable but the second is not, and I can't understand how you delineate hammer discussions in order to make that distinction.

Furthermore, even if you can explain some coherent way to limit the discussion in that way, I don't think it's worthwhile to do so with respect to skepticism.
I'm fine with both discussions. The limits of hammer's is an acceptable subject on the hammer forum. I object to non hammer proposals to fix the paintings.
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Old 7th July 2019, 05:30 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes because there's still a lot of people who have to be told "Stop believing in made up crap."
No there aren't, and even if there were, this forum isn't the place for it.

You're making up crap, and then believing in the crap you make up. I'd tell you to stop, but what would be the point?
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Old 7th July 2019, 06:51 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No there aren't, and even if there were, this forum isn't the place for it.

You're making up crap, and then believing in the crap you make up. I'd tell you to stop, but what would be the point?
Cool story bro.
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Old 7th July 2019, 08:00 AM   #255
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I honestly have no idea what anyone is talking about anymore.

I'm skeptical that my brain is still working correctly.
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Old 7th July 2019, 05:37 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm fine with both discussions. The limits of hammer's is an acceptable subject on the hammer forum. I object to non hammer proposals to fix the paintings.
So you are okay with discussions about the purpose of hammers as it applies to their application.

So it seems your answer to this question:

Quote:
Is skepticism meant to have a purpose?
Is yes.

And
Quote:
And if you desire to solve problems, you should be on a problem solving forum and not a skepticism forum.
This is clearly nonsense.
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Old 7th July 2019, 05:42 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
So you are okay with discussions about the purpose of hammers as it applies to their application.

So it seems your answer to this question:

Is yes.

And

This is clearly nonsense.
Just because a discussion of purpose occurs does not mean it has a purpose.

And I don't understand the nonsense thing.
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Old 8th July 2019, 03:20 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I honestly have no idea what anyone is talking about anymore.

I'm skeptical that my brain is still working correctly.
Thats because you like me are hammered!
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Old 8th July 2019, 03:21 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Just because a discussion of purpose occurs does not mean it has a purpose.



And I don't understand the nonsense thing.
Oh such a feeder line.....
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:18 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I honestly have no idea what anyone is talking about anymore.

I'm skeptical that my brain is still working correctly.
I'm afraid they're actually demonstrating what's happened to 'skepticism'
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:26 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
You underestimate the CTers. I've run into several Titanic-related conspiracy theories in the past. IIRC, the main ones are: 1) That the Titanic never actually sank; White Star was committing insurance fraud by sinking the Olympic, which had already been damaged, and 2) That J.P. Morgan intentionally had the ship sunk to kill business rivals; I think that one is actually part of the Qanon CT now, so it might be somewhat popular now, considering how that crapshow has grown.
I think the latest popular one was that the Bankers had the ship sunk to kill several opponents of a Federal Reserve Bank.

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Old 8th July 2019, 05:12 AM   #262
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Have you also noticed that if you compare images of the Titanic sinking from hitting an ice berg, and of ships sinking from being torpedoed, some of them sink in exactly the same way? Obvious proof the Titanic loss was a controlled sinking!!11
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:21 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
What exactly is a weak conspiracy theory? Is this a new Skeptic term?
What is a nice new house? Is this a new realestate term?
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:10 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Just because a discussion of purpose occurs does not mean it has a purpose.
Maybe, but in general human actions have a motivation. If skepticism is good it's good because it's useful to achieving some ends, so when theprestige says that your skepticism creates rather than solves problems that seems like a valid criticism to me, and I suspect most people.

You may consider skepticism to be an ends in itself, but if so I'm curious what ever lead you to that viewpoint.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:46 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What is a nice new house? Is this a new realestate term?
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:50 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There is no goddamn "hammer forum" in the real world.
Ahem.

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Old 8th July 2019, 08:25 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Maybe, but in general human actions have a motivation. If skepticism is good it's good because it's useful to achieving some ends, so when theprestige says that your skepticism creates rather than solves problems that seems like a valid criticism to me, and I suspect most people.

You may consider skepticism to be an ends in itself, but if so I'm curious what ever lead you to that viewpoint.
I'm not interested in solving problems with skepticism. And until this is international solve-problems forums, I'm in the right place.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:29 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Ahem.

Dave
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There is no goddamn "hammer forum" in the real world. There's no part of life where going "I'm just not going to look into whether or not this is true" is a good thing.

I await whatever intentionally dense nonsense your character is gonna vomit out.
Haven't you learned yet, never say never on the internet because somewhere sometime, if it can exist on the internet there are probably more than one.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:32 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not interested in solving problems with skepticism. And until this is international solve-problems forums, I'm in the right place.
Are you like this in real life?
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Old 8th July 2019, 10:31 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Are you like this in real life?
And a real hoot at parties...if French postmodern philosophy is your idea of a fun party.
I'll be wearing my "Chicks dig poststructuralist" t-shirt.
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Old 8th July 2019, 11:34 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
It's an English thing implying someone is of a lower class "commoner" as distinct from aristocratic I suppose. It has become to mean someone of low social status, education, and intelligence, from my understanding.

I recall one Mrs Slowcome (not sure of spelling here), in the series "Are you being served", used to refer to folk as common or dead common, in a derisive manner.
Tally Ho! chaps. Ex-public school bod, here. I come from Lancashire originally, and I suppose I used to have quite a pronounced accent, when I first went to school. A bloke in my year (Paul Young's record producer, these days) decided that all Northerners ate "n'owt but chip butties" - Chip Butty stuck as a nickname.

I sort of accidentally came across The Common Potato as a username a few years ago. As well as sounding a bit like "The Commentator", it has that personal meaning.

You're right, of course, about "common". Doesn't Hyacinth Bucket deserve a mention? Of course, it's quite permissible to call someone common who really isn't. It's an English banter thing.

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Old 8th July 2019, 02:16 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
Tally Ho! chaps. Ex-public school bod, here. I come from Lancashire originally, and I suppose I used to have quite a pronounced accent, when I first went to school. A bloke in my year (Paul Young's record producer, these days) decided that all Northerners ate "n'owt but chip butties" - Chip Butty stuck as a nickname.

I sort of accidentally came across The Common Potato as a username a few years ago. As well as sounding a bit like "The Commentator", it has that personal meaning.

You're right, of course, about "common". Doesn't Hyacinth Bucket deserve a mention? Of course, it's quite permissible to call someone common who really isn't. It's an English banter thing.

Well Tally Ho back then!

Phew! So you're not going to flay me alive for looking down on common folk.
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:34 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
And a real hoot at parties...if French postmodern philosophy is your idea of a fun party.
I'll be wearing my "Chicks dig poststructuralist" t-shirt.
"For a good time, you kant beat deconstructionism!"
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:05 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not interested in solving problems with skepticism. And until this is international solve-problems forums, I'm in the right place.
Sorry, but this isn't the 5-years-olds-asking-why forum. Questioning almost everything isn't the same as skepticism.
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:08 PM   #275
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Now drink this hemlock, Bob.
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:13 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
Sorry, but this isn't the 5-years-olds-asking-why forum. Questioning almost everything isn't the same as skepticism.
Good thing I don't question everything, then.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:47 PM   #277
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not interested in solving problems with skepticism. And until this is international solve-problems forums, I'm in the right place.
What are you interested in, then?
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:00 PM   #278
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To be fair, Bob's probably not the only one. There are plenty of apparently endless -- and apparently pointless -- argument-fests we see here, which you read in horrified fascination, thinking "WTF!", before shrugging and saying "Different strokes ..."

Heck, I've even caught myself at it. Got sucked into some discussion, then after a while wondering why on earth I care at all.

Of course, we can draw two possible lessons from this thought. The first would be to remain self aware about one's motivations, instead of thoughtlessly burrowing through some rabbit hole just because one's happened to poke one's head inside one. The second is to give up entirely on such self-awareness (or else, to compartmentalize, and to indulge in rabbit-hole-burrowing just for the heck of it).

Clearly Bob favors the latter. But equally clearly, Bob's not the only one to do that, albeit he is the only one to actually admit to it.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:51 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not interested in solving problems with skepticism. And until this is international solve-problems forums, I'm in the right place.
What use do you see skepticism as having for you?

I think that's an important question in order to analyse whether or not you are doing it in a way that's tailored to those aims, whatever they may be.
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Old 8th July 2019, 08:18 PM   #280
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A plus, if indeed there is any, is Bob's apparently unemotional approach to every issue, something I've tried to be mindful of.

To get back on topic of the TS, emotional arguments can have some place in skeptical analysis, but it's best to leave them on the back burner, especially for sensitive issues, else you end up with the mess you see in the politics and social issues sections.
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