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Old 25th June 2019, 06:07 PM   #121
Trebuchet
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yeah... and I know someone mentioned it upthread, but the Zumwaut (DDG-1000). Lets spend billions on a ship thats main role is going to be shore bombardment. Because aerial bombing hasn't been proven to be effective... oh wait yeah it has.

And the gun is unusable.

https://news.usni.org/2018/01/11/no-...oring-industry

So it was just an extremely expensive new VLS missile launcher platform???
Somewhat remarkably for the US DOD, they capped the procurement at three and got more DDG51's. Too bad they didn't do that for the LCS and get more FFG7's, perhaps with a better missile system.

The DD963 class, perhaps ironically developed under Admiral Zumwalt, was another procurement failure. Designed to have twin-rail missile launchers and 5-inch guns fore and aft, it wound up with the obsolescent ASROC launcher and a kind of pathetic Sea Sparrow launcher. Which had to be manually reloaded. Budget cuts FTW!
We toured one about 1980. I was quite blindsided by how little the sailor giving us the tour thought of her capabilities and how completely vulnerable she was to attack by a small armed helicopter or light military aircraft.
Replacement of the ASROC with a VLS system improved them, but still not a great class.
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Old 26th June 2019, 01:16 AM   #122
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All surface ships are vulnerable to attack by helicopters and aircraft.
That's why you have the carriers and shore based air cover (for those close enough)
By the time you are having to use your own aa things have gone wrong.

I speak from first hand knowledge.
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:24 AM   #123
Hubert Cumberdale
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A full list of the fire support ships off Normandy.

Omaha Bombardment Group
Battleships
USS Arkansas (BB 33). Wyoming class, commissioned 1912.
USS Texas (BB 35). New York class, commissioned 1914.

Cruisers
HMS Bellona. Bellona-class light cruiser, commissioned 1943.
HMS Glasgow. Southampton class, commissioned 1937.
FFL Georges Leygues (French). La Glossonairre–class light cruiser, commissioned 1937.
FFL Montcalm (French). La Glossonaire–class light cruiser, commissioned 1937.

Destroyers
USS Baldwin (DD 624). Livermore class, commissioned 1943. • USS Carmick (DD 493). Livermore class, commissioned 1942.
USS Doyle (DD 494). Livermore class, commissioned 1942.
USS Emmons (DD 457/DMS 22). Ellyson class, commissioned 1941/44, sunk off Okinawa 1945.
USS Frankford (DD 497). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Harding (DD 625/DMS 28). Ellyson class, commissioned 1943/44.
USS McCook (DD 496). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Satterlee (DD 626). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Thompson (DD 627). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
Destroyer Escorts
HMS Melbreak. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Talybont. Hunt class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Tanatside. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.

Utah Bombardment Group

Battleship
USS Nevada (BB 36). Nevada class, commissioned 1916.

Cruisers
HMS Black Prince. Bellona-class light cruiser, commissioned 1943.
HMS Enterprise. E-class light cruiser, commissioned 1926.
HMS Hawkins. Hawkins class, commissioned 1919.
USS Quincy (CA 71). Baltimore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Tuscaloosa (CA 37). Astoria class, commissioned 1934.
Monitor
HMS Erebus. Erebus class, commissioned 1916.

Destroyers
USS Butler (DD 636/DMS 29). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942.
USS Corry (DD 463). Gleaves class, commissioned 1942, sunk 6 June.
USS Fitch (DD 462/DMS 25). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Forrest (DD 461/DMS 24). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Gerhardi (DD 637/DMS 30). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Herndon (DD 638). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Hobson (DD 464/DMS 26). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Shubrick (DD 639). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.


Destroyer Escorts
USS Bates (DE 68/APD 47). Buckley class, commissioned 1943.
USS Rich (DE 695). Buckley class, commissioned 1943, sunk 8 June.

Sloop
HNMS Soemba (Dutch). Flores class, commissioned 1926.

Gold Bombardment Group

Light Cruisers
HMS Argonaut. Dido class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Ajax. Leander class, commissioned 1935.
HMS Emerald. Emerald class, commissioned 1926.
HMS Orion. Leander class, commissioned 1934.

Destroyers
HMS Cattistock. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Cottesmore. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Grenville. G class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Jervis. J class, commissioned 1939.
ORP Krakowiak (Polish). Hunt class, commissioned 1941.
HMS Pytchley. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Ulster. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Ulysses. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Undaunted. U class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Undine. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Urania. U class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Urchin. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Ursa. U class, commissioned 1944.

Sloop
HNMS Flores (Dutch). Flores class, commissioned 1926.

Bombardment and gunfire support ships in the British and Canadian sectors were:

Juno Bombardment Group

Cruisers
HMS Belfast. Edinburgh class, commissioned 1938.
HMS Diadem. Bellona class light cruiser, commissioned 1944.

Destroyers
HMCS Algonquin. V class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Bleasdale. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
FFL La Combattante (French). Hunt class, commissioned 1942, lost in 1945.
HMS Faulknor. F class, commissioned 1935.
HMS Fury. F class, commissioned 1934. Sunk 21 June 1944.
HNoMS Glaisdale (Norwegian). Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Kempenfelt. W class, commissioned 1943.
HMCS Sioux. V class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Stevenstone. Hunt class, commissioned 1943.

Sword Bombardment Group

Battleships
HMS Ramilles. Royal Sovereign class, commissioned 1917.
HMS Warspite. Queen Elizabeth class, commissioned 1916.
U.S. Navy battleship Nevada bombarding the invasion beaches: Martin K.A. Morgan.


Cruisers
HMS Arethusa. Arethusa class light cruiser, commissioned 1935.
HMS Danae. D-class light cruiser, commissioned 1918.
OPD Dragon (Polish). Dragon-class light cruiser, commissioned 1917, torpedoed 8 June.
HMS Frobisher. Hawkins class, commissioned 1924.
HMS Mauritius. Fiji-class light cruiser, commissioned 1941.

Destroyers
HMS Eglington. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Kelvin. K class, commissioned 1939.
HMS Middleton. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Saumarez. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Scorpion. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Scourge. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Serapis. S class, commissioned 1943.
ORP Slazak (Polish). Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HNoMS Stord (Norwegian). S class, commissioned 1943.
HNoMS Svenner (Norwegian). S class, commissioned 1944, lost 6 June.
HMS Swift. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Verulam. V class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Virago. V class, commissioned 1943.

Monitor
HMS Roberts. Roberts class, commissioned 1941.

https://www.historyonthenet.com/naval-artillery
Weren't the Nelson's also present?
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:11 AM   #124
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Nelson wasn't in the bombardment fleet. She arrived on the 11th as a relief ship to allow others to retire for resupply. She spent 7 days providing fire support and retired for resupply on the 18th but triggered two acoustic mines. She was sent to the USA for repair.
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:12 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The DD963 class, perhaps ironically developed under Admiral Zumwalt, was another procurement failure. Designed to have twin-rail missile launchers and 5-inch guns fore and aft, it wound up with the obsolescent ASROC launcher and a kind of pathetic Sea Sparrow launcher. Which had to be manually reloaded. Budget cuts FTW!
We toured one about 1980. I was quite blindsided by how little the sailor giving us the tour thought of her capabilities and how completely vulnerable she was to attack by a small armed helicopter or light military aircraft.
Replacement of the ASROC with a VLS system improved them, but still not a great class.
That's not quite true.

There were supposed to be 2 distinct versions from the beginning with a 3rd (an upgrade path) to follow. There was as I recall DX, the main production model and a dedicated fleet ASW platform to replace FRAM Gearing destroyers.
Then there was I believe it was called DXG which was AAW oriented. It would have had Mk 26 multi-role missile launchers fore and aft with a 3 channel SAM fire control system, an 8" MCLWG and a 5" gun, and fewer ASW features (no towed sonar).
The third path was a mid-life upgrade of DX (DX Mod?) which would have seen the ASROC and Sea Sparrow launchers replaced by Mk 26 launchers and a 2-channel SAM fire control system without a dedicated long range search radar (SPS-48 only, no SPS-40 or -49).

DX became the Spruance class.
DXG was not built, the CG47 Ticonderoga class being built instead a few years later on the same hull and machinery. That was much better.
The DX upgrade path never happened to the Sprucan's but what became the Kidd class destroyers, originally built for Iran were constructed on that plan.

The Sprucan's were in fact highly successful and in the 1980's probably the best ASW surface warships in the world. They were also extremely flexible.
They became the Navy's primary TLAM cruise missile platform and a number of them were fitted with special ELINT gear that was crucial to providing target information to that system.

While admittedly not as sexy as a guided missile cruiser, no sense criticizing them because they could not do things they were not intended to do. Most of the complaints about the Sprucan's came in the 1970's when the first appeared massively over budget (due to rampant inflation at the time) and seemingly under-armed because some systems (Harpoon, Sea Sparrow, Vulcan-Phalanx) it was designed for were not ready yet. Like all modern warships much of its combat power was "under the skin" and not readily apparent to those who view combat power as counting gun barrels and missile launchers.
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:20 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Nelson wasn't in the bombardment fleet.
Nelson wasn't, but Rodney was from the 6th, and it seems to be missing from the ships assigned to Sword.
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:35 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I have similar ideas about how the RN should be designing Frigates. What they need is a modern 'Leander' or even a modern 'Type 12' (for those old enough to rememeber) for the majority of the work they do.
Dedicated ASW ships for North Atlantic operations?
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:37 AM   #128
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She has 'fallen through a gap' as it were arriving late to the party.

On the 6th RODNEY Sword Beach.
On arrival off the beachhead she was ordered to return to Spithead.

On the 7th she sailed for the Normandy again and joined US battleships ARKANSAS, TEXAS and NEVADA and the heavy cruiser TUSCALOOSA.
There were no targets for RODNEY in the American sector so the group sailed east to the British beaches.

From the official record

Quote:
At 1830 hours off Juno Beach RODNEY opened fire on the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" who were driving the 9th Brigade, 3rd Canadian Division back from Authie, north west of Caen. RODNEY fired 132 rounds of 16in and 99 rounds of 6in.
(After this bombardment a German officer stated that the concentrated fire was such as had never been seen before on any European battlefield and officers and men were totally demoralised)

8th – At 0900 hours carried out a 6in shoot in support of the 3rd Canadian Division, against a fortified farm held by the 12th SS Panzer Division.
Late in the evening the Luftwaffe attacked shipping off the beachhead. In the attack RODNEY was near missed by 4 bombs.

9th – Between 0315 and 0335 hours RODNEY fired 78 rounds of 16in in support of the 185th Brigade of the British 3rd Division against the 21st SS Panzer Division.
Later RODNEY fired 75 rounds of 16in against tanks of the 21st SS Panzer Division near Caen. It should only have been 15 rounds, but the telegraphist who took the radio message wrote his 'ones' in the continental manner, ie like a seven, so an additional 60 rounds were fired.
At 0900 hours RODNEY carried out a 6in blind shoot against a German troop assembly area.
At 1100 hours RODNEY carried out a 6in shoot against German troops and vehicles near Caen. Followed by 7 rounds of 16in AP against the Benneville battery.
Later in the day RODNEY carried out a 6in shoot against the Houlgate battery (4 ex French 155mm guns).
At 1600 hours RODNEY came under air attack from 12 Me 109 and Fw 190 fighter bombers all the bombs missed.
At 1700 hours RODNEY, the cruiser DRAGON escorted by RIOU and BLEASDALE sailed from the beachhead for Milford Haven, where RODNEY was to re-ammunition.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 26th June 2019 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:52 AM   #129
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I'm sure I've seen photos tagged of her bombarding targets at Sword on the 6th, but the above reads like she turned up and was told to go home before doing anything?
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Old 26th June 2019, 05:08 AM   #130
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Yes, then came back next day and was sent to Juno.
After resupply she was back on the 18th and continued to give fire support at various locations in to July, her last action on the 9th

Quote:
At 0845 hours RODNEY fired 15 rounds of 16in at German tanks of the 12th SS Panzer Division in support of Operation CHARNWOOD. One of RODNEY’s 16in shells destroyed the spire of the Church of Saint-Pierre in Caen.
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Old 26th June 2019, 12:07 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A full list of the fire support ships off Normandy.

Omaha Bombardment Group
Battleships
USS Arkansas (BB 33). Wyoming class, commissioned 1912.
USS Texas (BB 35). New York class, commissioned 1914.

Cruisers
HMS Bellona. Bellona-class light cruiser, commissioned 1943.
HMS Glasgow. Southampton class, commissioned 1937.
FFL Georges Leygues (French). La Glossonairre–class light cruiser, commissioned 1937.
FFL Montcalm (French). La Glossonaire–class light cruiser, commissioned 1937.

Destroyers
USS Baldwin (DD 624). Livermore class, commissioned 1943. • USS Carmick (DD 493). Livermore class, commissioned 1942.
USS Doyle (DD 494). Livermore class, commissioned 1942.
USS Emmons (DD 457/DMS 22). Ellyson class, commissioned 1941/44, sunk off Okinawa 1945.
USS Frankford (DD 497). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Harding (DD 625/DMS 28). Ellyson class, commissioned 1943/44.
USS McCook (DD 496). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Satterlee (DD 626). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Thompson (DD 627). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
Destroyer Escorts
HMS Melbreak. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Talybont. Hunt class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Tanatside. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.

Utah Bombardment Group

Battleship
USS Nevada (BB 36). Nevada class, commissioned 1916.

Cruisers
HMS Black Prince. Bellona-class light cruiser, commissioned 1943.
HMS Enterprise. E-class light cruiser, commissioned 1926.
HMS Hawkins. Hawkins class, commissioned 1919.
USS Quincy (CA 71). Baltimore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Tuscaloosa (CA 37). Astoria class, commissioned 1934.
Monitor
HMS Erebus. Erebus class, commissioned 1916.

Destroyers
USS Butler (DD 636/DMS 29). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942.
USS Corry (DD 463). Gleaves class, commissioned 1942, sunk 6 June.
USS Fitch (DD 462/DMS 25). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Forrest (DD 461/DMS 24). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Gerhardi (DD 637/DMS 30). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Herndon (DD 638). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Hobson (DD 464/DMS 26). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Shubrick (DD 639). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.


Destroyer Escorts
USS Bates (DE 68/APD 47). Buckley class, commissioned 1943.
USS Rich (DE 695). Buckley class, commissioned 1943, sunk 8 June.

Sloop
HNMS Soemba (Dutch). Flores class, commissioned 1926.

Gold Bombardment Group

Light Cruisers
HMS Argonaut. Dido class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Ajax. Leander class, commissioned 1935.
HMS Emerald. Emerald class, commissioned 1926.
HMS Orion. Leander class, commissioned 1934.

Destroyers
HMS Cattistock. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Cottesmore. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Grenville. G class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Jervis. J class, commissioned 1939.
ORP Krakowiak (Polish). Hunt class, commissioned 1941.
HMS Pytchley. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Ulster. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Ulysses. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Undaunted. U class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Undine. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Urania. U class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Urchin. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Ursa. U class, commissioned 1944.

Sloop
HNMS Flores (Dutch). Flores class, commissioned 1926.

Bombardment and gunfire support ships in the British and Canadian sectors were:

Juno Bombardment Group

Cruisers
HMS Belfast. Edinburgh class, commissioned 1938.
HMS Diadem. Bellona class light cruiser, commissioned 1944.

Destroyers
HMCS Algonquin. V class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Bleasdale. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
FFL La Combattante (French). Hunt class, commissioned 1942, lost in 1945.
HMS Faulknor. F class, commissioned 1935.
HMS Fury. F class, commissioned 1934. Sunk 21 June 1944.
HNoMS Glaisdale (Norwegian). Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Kempenfelt. W class, commissioned 1943.
HMCS Sioux. V class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Stevenstone. Hunt class, commissioned 1943.

Sword Bombardment Group

Battleships
HMS Ramilles. Royal Sovereign class, commissioned 1917.
HMS Warspite. Queen Elizabeth class, commissioned 1916.
U.S. Navy battleship Nevada bombarding the invasion beaches: Martin K.A. Morgan.


Cruisers
HMS Arethusa. Arethusa class light cruiser, commissioned 1935.
HMS Danae. D-class light cruiser, commissioned 1918.
OPD Dragon (Polish). Dragon-class light cruiser, commissioned 1917, torpedoed 8 June.
HMS Frobisher. Hawkins class, commissioned 1924.
HMS Mauritius. Fiji-class light cruiser, commissioned 1941.

Destroyers
HMS Eglington. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Kelvin. K class, commissioned 1939.
HMS Middleton. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Saumarez. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Scorpion. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Scourge. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Serapis. S class, commissioned 1943.
ORP Slazak (Polish). Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HNoMS Stord (Norwegian). S class, commissioned 1943.
HNoMS Svenner (Norwegian). S class, commissioned 1944, lost 6 June.
HMS Swift. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Verulam. V class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Virago. V class, commissioned 1943.

Monitor
HMS Roberts. Roberts class, commissioned 1941.

https://www.historyonthenet.com/naval-artillery
My father, who was on Omaha Beach on the morning of June 6, said of a destroyer driver who came right into the beach to provide fire support, that it was a wonder that the ship could float with those big brass balls dragging along the seabed.
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Old 26th June 2019, 12:42 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
My father, who was on Omaha Beach on the morning of June 6, said of a destroyer driver who came right into the beach to provide fire support, that it was a wonder that the ship could float with those big brass balls dragging along the seabed.

USS McCook?
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Old 26th June 2019, 12:54 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
USS McCook?
He never knew. What he told me was that the destroyer came in close enough that the men on shore could wave and point at bunkers and targets and the ship would respond with her guns.
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:10 PM   #134
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BTW Roland Emmerich, the guy who gave us such masteprieces of Historical Accuracy as 'The Patriot" ( with it's semi automatic muzzle loading rifles )"Anonymous" (which proves that Shakepeare did not write Shakespeare) and "Stonewall" (denounced by several people who were there in 1969 as a pile of crap) had a film on the battle of Midway coming out this fall. Prepare to vomit.
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:23 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW Roland Emmerich, the guy who gave us such masteprieces of Historical Accuracy as 'The Patriot" ( with it's semi automatic muzzle loading rifles )"Anonymous" (which proves that Shakepeare did not write Shakespeare) and "Stonewall" (denounced by several people who were there in 1969 as a pile of crap) had a film on the battle of Midway coming out this fall. Prepare to vomit.
It won't have Charlton Heston in it, so that alone makes it better than the previous effort.

Since USS Arkansas has been mentioned, I'll bring up both the Wyoming and New York classes, which were not great when they were new and astoundingly obsolete during WWII. Arkansas was the absolute worst battleship retained by any of the great powers under the treaties. At least her sister Wyoming did good service as a training ship during the war.
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:38 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
It won't have Charlton Heston in it, so that alone makes it better than the previous effort.
.
It also won't have SENSURROUND! Nor will it have footage taken from Tora Tora Tora and old newsreel stock footage.

In fairness, Emerich is going to have to work harder to screw this one up. Will he go with the traditional (and long debunked) accounting of the attacks or the more recent reevaluations?

I'll wager he puts in a Pearl Harbor conspiracy in there somehow.
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Old 26th June 2019, 11:35 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post

I'll wager he puts in a Pearl Harbor conspiracy in there somehow.
Hah! Scope for some token British baddies?
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Old 27th June 2019, 07:30 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW Roland Emmerich, the guy who gave us such masteprieces of Historical Accuracy as 'The Patriot" ( with it's semi automatic muzzle loading rifles )"Anonymous" (which proves that Shakepeare did not write Shakespeare) and "Stonewall" (denounced by several people who were there in 1969 as a pile of crap) had a film on the battle of Midway coming out this fall. Prepare to vomit.
Oh look a teaser trailer:

https://youtu.be/dd8OsSdXEGc

Looks like Emmerich junk. The attack on Midway island looks like it has more planes than the entire Japanese flet possessed.
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Old 28th June 2019, 01:39 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
My father, who was on Omaha Beach on the morning of June 6, said of a destroyer driver who came right into the beach to provide fire support, that it was a wonder that the ship could float with those big brass balls dragging along the seabed.
Yes, that was an effective littoral combat vessel.
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Old 28th June 2019, 02:21 AM   #140
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these were the best fire support ships for shore operations. They had battleship guns and a shallow draught to get close inshore.


Good old fashioned Monitors like the Terror
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Terror_(I03)
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Old 28th June 2019, 04:17 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Oh look a teaser trailer:

https://youtu.be/dd8OsSdXEGc

Looks like Emmerich junk. The attack on Midway island looks like it has more planes than the entire Japanese flet possessed.
The CGI is so bad its almost good.
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Old 28th June 2019, 10:33 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Oh look a teaser trailer:

https://youtu.be/dd8OsSdXEGc

Looks like Emmerich junk. The attack on Midway island looks like it has more planes than the entire Japanese flet possessed.
Jeez, that's awful. Did you notice the Jerry cans in the Midway scene? Don't think those would have been there.
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Old 28th June 2019, 10:58 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yeah... and I know someone mentioned it upthread, but the Zumwaut (DDG-1000). Lets spend billions on a ship thats main role is going to be shore bombardment. Because aerial bombing hasn't been proven to be effective... oh wait yeah it has.

And the gun is unusable.

https://news.usni.org/2018/01/11/no-...oring-industry

So it was just an extremely expensive new VLS missile launcher platform???
I think the gun is usable, it just doesn't make economic sense to try to use it. With the collapse of the USSR, the anticipated need for this new class evaporated, and with it the value in manufacturing the ammunition. If the new gun had real targets, they could have justified the expense of the new ammo, and realized per-unit cost savings by manufacturing the ammo in large quantities. However, without such targets, there's no point in manufacturing a few rounds at very high costs, for what is now essentially a prototype and technology testbed.

The Zumwalts made a lot of sense when they were first designed. But the world changed, and they stopped making sense. That's we only have three of them, instead of a dozen, and why we've curtailed a lot of the planned spending to complete their original design goals. And that's why they look silly today, if you don't take into account the context in which they emerged.
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Old 28th June 2019, 11:03 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think the gun is usable, it just doesn't make economic sense to try to use it. With the collapse of the USSR, the anticipated need for this new class evaporated, and with it the value in manufacturing the ammunition. If the new gun had real targets, they could have justified the expense of the new ammo, and realized per-unit cost savings by manufacturing the ammo in large quantities. However, without such targets, there's no point in manufacturing a few rounds at very high costs, for what is now essentially a prototype and technology testbed.

The Zumwalts made a lot of sense when they were first designed. But the world changed, and they stopped making sense. That's we only have three of them, instead of a dozen, and why we've curtailed a lot of the planned spending to complete their original design goals. And that's why they look silly today, if you don't take into account the context in which they emerged.
Uhh, the USSR dissolved in 1991. The Zumwalt didn't even get into the design phase until 2005. We literally could've just taken 22 billion dollars and burned it on a big bonfire and gotten our money's worth just as well.
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Old 28th June 2019, 11:07 AM   #145
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Aerial bombing has proven effective, but it has trade-offs too. One is the cost of ordinance, another the risk that planes face against advanced air defense networks. It's cheaper for Russia to continue advancing the state of the art in air defense, rather than trying to beat the US in air superiority.

One design goal of the Zumwalt was to be able to throw artillery rounds with greater accuracy at standoff ranges. That's what the gun is for. An F-35 might struggle to deliver a glide bomb or cruise missile safely from standoff ranges in some scenarios. In such scenarios, a low-observable big gun ship can creep up to the horizon and lob half a dozen long-range shells at the same target. Yes, the shells are expensive, but so are the glide bombs and cruise missiles.

But again, such scenarios are unlikely to materialize in the near future. If the day comes when we need to take a serious look at raids against artificial islands in the South China Sea, we'll probably revisit the Zumwalt, and start building a follow-on class that adapts and extends the lessons learned from the three Zs.

US and UK modern naval history are replete with onesey-twosey ship classes, interim designs that are then supplanted by improved variants. I think that's what's happening with the Zumwalt.
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Old 28th June 2019, 11:08 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Uhh, the USSR dissolved in 1991. The Zumwalt didn't even get into the design phase until 2005. We literally could've just taken 22 billion dollars and burned it on a big bonfire and gotten our money's worth just as well.
Fair point.
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Old 28th June 2019, 12:00 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Aerial bombing has proven effective, but it has trade-offs too. One is the cost of ordinance, another the risk that planes face against advanced air defense networks. It's cheaper for Russia to continue advancing the state of the art in air defense, rather than trying to beat the US in air superiority.

One design goal of the Zumwalt was to be able to throw artillery rounds with greater accuracy at standoff ranges. That's what the gun is for. An F-35 might struggle to deliver a glide bomb or cruise missile safely from standoff ranges in some scenarios. In such scenarios, a low-observable big gun ship can creep up to the horizon and lob half a dozen long-range shells at the same target. Yes, the shells are expensive, but so are the glide bombs and cruise missiles.

But again, such scenarios are unlikely to materialize in the near future. If the day comes when we need to take a serious look at raids against artificial islands in the South China Sea, we'll probably revisit the Zumwalt, and start building a follow-on class that adapts and extends the lessons learned from the three Zs.

US and UK modern naval history are replete with onesey-twosey ship classes, interim designs that are then supplanted by improved variants. I think that's what's happening with the Zumwalt.
Stand off ranges fairly near a coastline .
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Old 28th June 2019, 01:35 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Looks like Emmerich junk. The attack on Midway island looks like it has more planes than the entire Japanese flet possessed.

Actually I paused it and counted about 100 planes, which is accurate. One problem I did notice, though, is some Vals are way too low for a dive bombing attack.

A few other things:
  • Zeros firing their cannons when strafing personnel: The model in service at the time only carried seven seconds' worth of cannon ammunition, and 33 seconds' worth of 7.7mm machine gun ammunition.
  • Wrong model of Mitchell on the Hornet: The B-25B lacked the Plexiglas tail-gunner position
  • Battleship row during the attack: Nevada and Maryland appear to be misaligned, and there's no sign of the capsized Oklahoma. Plus Neosho is nowhere to be seen.
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Old 28th June 2019, 01:46 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Jeez, that's awful. Did you notice the Jerry cans in the Midway scene? Don't think those would have been there.

Are you sure about that? Both the US and Britain started producing clones of captured examples in 1941.
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Old 28th June 2019, 02:14 PM   #150
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US cans were in use with British forces before the Brit version which came in to production in 1942.
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Old 28th June 2019, 02:37 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Are you sure about that? Both the US and Britain started producing clones of captured examples in 1941.
The Wikipedia article isn't clear, but I still think it unlikely they'd have made it to Midway by May of 42.
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Old 28th June 2019, 03:59 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Actually I paused it and counted about 100 planes, which is accurate. One problem I did notice, though, is some Vals are way too low for a dive bombing attack.
T]
I guess so. Still it rubs me the wrong way as it looks too much like when the alien fighters in Independence Day attacked the jet fighters on the ground.

I suspect the actual Midway attack did not come in one big clummock. But my copy of Shattered Sword is on loan.

And if that’s Ensign Gay going “wooo!” as he surfaces consider my eyes rolled. Dude, all your friends in your squad are dead and you need to hide from Japanese looking for survivors.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:48 PM   #153
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Here's a real howler I just noticed: In the Battleship Row strafing scene, the ship directly in front of the Arizona appears to be the Pennsylvania (Tripod masts, triple turrets {I think}). Even worse, the ship outboard appears to be either the California or the Tennessee (lattice masts, triple turrets), except the hull has the form of either the Pennsylvania or Nevada class.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:57 PM   #154
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"Real howler."

Seems to me it's right up there with the round Earth, as far as the daily lives of pretty much everyone ever is concerned.
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Old 28th June 2019, 05:57 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I guess so. Still it rubs me the wrong way as it looks too much like when the alien fighters in Independence Day attacked the jet fighters on the ground.

I suspect the actual Midway attack did not come in one big clummock. But my copy of Shattered Sword is on loan.

And if that’s Ensign Gay going “wooo!” as he surfaces consider my eyes rolled. Dude, all your friends in your squad are dead and you need to hide from Japanese looking for survivors.
Yeah, noticed that last bit as well. Pretty sure that's who it's intended to be, and agree the scene is stupid.

Back more on topic, one of the types listed in the book is the Omaha Class. These were the USN's first attempt at a modern cruiser of any size. Obsolescent when commissioned, they nonetheless all survived WWII, mostly by not being assigned to where major action was expected. Not great, but terrible? I can think of worse.

My copy of Shattered Sword is ... somewhere. Dang move! It was right in the living room until then!

ETA: The Omaha's saw a lot of service as destroyer squadron flagships during the interwar years. That's pretty much all the Japanese used theirs for.
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Old 28th June 2019, 06:25 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Real howler."

Seems to me it's right up there with the round Earth, as far as the daily lives of pretty much everyone ever is concerned.

I have no idea what you mean by this.
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Old 29th June 2019, 11:31 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I have no idea what you mean by this.

"Some of the ships were out of position in the Pearl Harbor scene. That ruined the whole movie for me." Is something few people are going to say.

("The movie sucked, and that ruined the whole movie for me," is pretty likely though.)
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Old 29th June 2019, 12:00 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I have no idea what you mean by this.
"Real howler" implies some sort of egregious mistake. Using stock models or reproductions that don't exactly match minor details isn't such a mistake.

Nothing in the story depends on getting the look of the ships exactly, historically right. As long as it's close enough to evoke the desired experience in the majority of the audience, it's close enough.
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:04 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
"Some of the ships were out of position in the Pearl Harbor scene. That ruined the whole movie for me." Is something few people are going to say.

("The movie sucked, and that ruined the whole movie for me," is pretty likely though.)
I also noticed the ships were wrong and would be one of those people.
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:09 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I also noticed the ships were wrong and would be one of those people.
Seriously? The entire movie was ruined for you because the ships weren't perfectly accurate?

How hard should moviemakers work to meet your expectations of accuracy? How much of their budget should they plan on spending to keep you happy?

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