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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:14 PM   #241
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
They mayor is definitely complicit in the hand-off approach; but the two situations you describe here are not mutually exclusive.

A lot of people don't realize just how powerful the police unions are these days. "Lost control of the department" is almost universally the case, especially in large cities. I live in a city where the police department was described in a DoJ report as the most violent and corrupt in the nation nearly a decade ago. Said department has been very successful at resisting each and every attempt by the city to instigate reform. Politicians who opposed the unions too strongly find themselves with a powerful enemy when they come up for re-election, or in a few cases find themselves targets of harassment by police.
Hell the police departments aren't even in control of themselves. They can't exactly fire officers who repeadedly kill unarmed citizens after all.

see

Officer Hector Jimenez

https://www.rlslawyers.com/oakland-p...g-unarmed-man/

He shot unarmed men in separate incidents 9 months apart, and simply breaking policy and killing people isn't a reason to lose your job.

Of course minneapolis had to pay off Jeronimo Yanez for killing Philado Castile against policy. Really there is no one in control of the police, just a union making sure what ever happens the officers face no consequence for their actions.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:16 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No one has said that there aren't any antifa individuals or groups who aren't just there looking for a fight, obviously there are but they're a very small minority, and not representative of the far larger antifa tent. And there are nowhere near as many of them as there are of fascists/white supremacists who who are just out looking for a fight (prefering one heavily weighted in their favour, with unarmed opponents who can't fight back effectively, like they targeted at Charlottsville).
How do we know they are a small minority? You've continuously said there is no organization, no creed, which means no accountability. I haven't seen any internal policing of actions at all, in any video so far. Seems this stuff is widely accepted, otherwise there would be some push back don't you think?


Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No one is claiming that egging/milkshaking is going to deter immediate violence; but there's an entirely separate thread on that subject, and discussion is best left there.
No. You can freely bring up Charlottsville continuously in any conversation regarding antifa, I will bring up actions taken at this specific event and how they affected it. Much more on topic, and in no way veering into the purpose of the other thread.

There was another incident at this event. From one account, some guy was milkshaked and got into a fight with the guy that did it (or whoever happened to be around). Fight breaks out, pepper sprays, fists thrown etc etc. Afterwards another fight breaks out with the same group involving some older guy. He's got his metal hat, metal baton, and in turn gets beat over the head by a bunch of 'antifa' guys with metal batons. Could have been started by anything of course, but once started sure escalated quickly. And they'll feel justified that they were 'defending themselves'.



Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Nope. Antifa's view is that we already live in a state of lawlessness, when those who enforce the laws do so selectively, turning a blind eye toward lawlessness from their favoured groups committed against "undesirables"; and they are simply acting in the way the authorities should be, when the authorities have demonstrated an unwillingness to do so.
That is their view, sure. What I would love to know is how their actions do anything but make it impossible to enforce the laws they complain they aren't enforcing. Plenty of video of cops having eggs, water bottles, milk shakes etc thrown at them while trying to keep the peace. Holding back people trying to get at the right wing protesters. Sure doesn't seem like they are doing anything to help the situation. Especially when the right wingers number in the 2-3 dozen and the 'antifa' protesters number in the hundreds.

Know what might make it easier? Being like the other protesters that were there that weren't attempting to engage in mortal combat with 'nazis'. They sure didn't seem to be taking up the bulk of the polices resources to deal with. The mocked, danced, played loud music to drown out the right wing rhetoric, shared drinks and had a jolly time by the looks of it.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:19 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Having grievances with the government isn't the same as a state of lawlessness. The entire point of our laws is that grievances, sufficiently felt by enough citizens, can be addressed through pre-defined processes.

Okay, I can't have read that correctly. Are you saying fascist gangs are marching openly in the streets, intimidating minorities and "undesirables" because they have a grievance against the government?

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Antifa is a repudiation of that. To support armed struggle is to pre-suppose that grievances cannot be addressed in a lawful, peaceful way.

So far, they haven't been to any notable extent, and the current state and multiple federal governments have given no indication that they intend to do so.

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Antifa isn't political in any meaningful sense. They, and patriot prayer and the others, are political LARPers.

Wait a minute here. First, we're being told that antifa are terrorists because they commit political violence, now we're being told that they're not political, which means that they can't be terrorists by definition. Which is it?


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They don't challenge real power in any meaningful sense. The small groups of thugs meet on the street and beat the snot out of each other.

They don't? Are you aware of all of what antifa actually does? Direct action is only a very small part of it.

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Portland PD lets them fight. In the rare instances one of these thugs forgets their place and attacks a cop, they get a hard lesson in what real power is.

Never mind the fact that a very large percentage of the cops themselves are nothing more than uniformed thugs.

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Antifa will never effect a meaningful change in the way political power is wielded in this country.

Funny, because they already seem to be doing just that. Look at how many progressives have been elected into office so far, and how many neo-Nazis and other fascists ousted from positions of private and governmental authority. Not enough, admittedly, but it's a start.

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But they will be used as poster children for authoritarians looking for reasons to crack down on civil engagement.

The existence of civil engagement is the only excuse authoritarians have ever needed to crack down on undesirables. Anything more is just window-dressing to placate the uninformed and ostriches.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:19 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Nazis and communists fighting each other in the streets. I wonder if that has ever happened before. I wonder how it turned out.
Well the police helped the KKK attack them and after they murdered a bunch they all got off. Basically nothing changes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre

That was a great part of american history there something all can be proud of.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:20 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Richard Spencer is not some ignorant racist that got caught up in a movement. Richard Spencer is the intellectual elite of the white nationalist movement. He's the president of a white nationalist think tank and responsible for organizing and directing alt-right extremist groups. he is literally a man that organizes torch-lit parades of chanting neo-nazis. I feel perfectly comfortable holding him in extreme disregard. He's the second coming of Goebbels, and that's not hyperbole.

I reject the idea that we have to be nice to the racists so they can learn, gently and at their own pace, that being a racist is bad. These people are adults and fully developed sense of morality. They can own the consequences of their bigotry.
Then why do you hold a philosophy that helps them as an organization? You make it so they have no where to turn.

You are so caught up wanting to be mean to people you don't like that you help their cause then sick your fingers in your ears and yell " I can't hear you. ".

How do you think this would work if we did it with any gang? Join the bloods have that follow you your entire life even if you never got convicted of a crime. Do you think that would lessen membership? Or mean people have no choice for employment or company besides members of their gang?

Your philosophy helps the white power movement as a whole so you can be mean to individuals. Mine gives individuals a mote of dignity in order to harm the organization.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:22 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
One of the sides was a coalition of nazis, neo-Confederates, patriot militias, the ******* Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacists. Which of those groups has the fine people?
Why all of them, remember this is the president who likes to get his information from @whitegenocide(tm). OF course you could never classify a main stream conservative voice like that as some kind of deplorable white supremacist.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:25 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I reject the idea that we have to be nice to the racists so they can learn, gently and at their own pace, that being a racist is bad. These people are adults and fully developed sense of morality. They can own the consequences of their bigotry. It is not unreasonable to say "this guy is a neo-nazi that yearns for an ethnically cleansed America" when it is literally true. Should that make him not welcome at his local whole foods, so be it.
What exactly are the consequences of their bigotry that you're referring to here? Why do we need to know their home address for them to feel those consequences? Certainly we don't need to know their home address to make them feel unwelcome at whole foods, assuming he doesn't live in a whole foods.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:27 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Journalists are not an elite caste. The press is not actually an estate of the government, with barriers to entry that citizens must cross to enjoy its protections.

Obfuscatory gibberish. "Journalist" is an [i]occupation, the same as "doctor" and "lawyer" and "fascist politician". One might even call it a calling. Like any other occupation it comes with a specific set of expectations, minor privileges, professional responsibilities, and ethical guidelines. The fact that anyone can write a blog post or natter on about the current political climate to anyone who will listen, does not make them journalists; any more than taking basic first-aid training and watching every episode of ER makes someone a doctor.

If you think that "everyone is a journalist", then I suggest you try and get into the next White House press briefing. I'm sure the security folks there will be happy to accept your "everyone is a journalist" routine as valid.

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Anyone, at any time, can speak up and say, "this is what I saw, this is what I think" without fear of retaliation. That's the freedom of the press.

No, that's freedom of speech. You're conflating two related but distinctly different things.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:28 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a mistake to conflate this idea of publication as a basic human right, with the institutionalized practice of publication by organized groups of people.

And yet that's what you're doing in your poorly-worded attempt at a gotcha.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:29 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Obfuscatory gibberish. "Journalist" is an [i]occupation, the same as "doctor" and "lawyer" and "fascist politician". One might even call it a calling. Like any other occupation it comes with a specific set of expectations, minor privileges, professional responsibilities, and ethical guidelines.
And none of which are in any way relevant to what happened to Andy Ngo.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:29 PM   #251
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It occurred to me what ought to be done when groups like the Proud Boys announce a demonstration.


Bake cookies. Give them chocolate chip cookies.


You might have to eat one or two of them yourself, to prove they aren't poisoned. That should be amusing all by itself, but you get to eat cookies.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:36 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys View Post
The end game is to have the relevant authorities step in and rein in the fascists and their inciters how exactly? By eroding personal freedoms?

Addressed ad nauseum in other threads you've participated in.

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How does vigilante violence by groups like Antifa help those relevant authorities reach that end game without turning their focus towards those violent vigilantes? Wouldn't peaceful protest and lobbying to authorities be more effective in getting what you want?

The problem, as has been repeatedly acknowledged even by opponents of antifa, is that peaceful protest and lobbying hasn't worked very well so far. Go back and read the thread and you'll see just how often the police in Portland, for example, simply let the fascists run rampant despite clear and present threats of violence from them. Even armed fascists are given almost free rein by the authorities, because the authorities are much more sympathetic to the violent white supremacists than they are to the victims. Charlottesville showed what happens when non-violent peaceful protesters try to confront armed fascists. Non-violence in the face of an enemy who does not consider you equally human, and is willing to use violence to enforce their worldview on you, is not noble or principled, it's suicidal.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:37 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post

So far, they haven't been to any notable extent, and the current state and multiple federal governments have given no indication that they intend to do so.




Wait a minute here. First, we're being told that antifa are terrorists because they commit political violence, now we're being told that they're not political, which means that they can't be terrorists by definition. Which is it?
They aren't political in any meaningful sense. That's my point about them being LARPers. A tiny group of nutcases go out and bash another tiny group of nutcases and in their minds, they are saving the world from nazism. I'm sure the Patriot prayer folks are certain that they are saving the world from communism. Meanwhile, the sane population sees a bunch of goons beating eachother silly and hoping they don't get maced or clubbed while engaging in the civic discourse. It's self-aggrandizing nonsense and play-acting at being relevant. The only reason this is note worthy is because the cops are being instructed to allow such petty thuggery to continue unchecked. The city may as well build a thunderdome the way they endorse this violence.



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They don't? Are you aware of all of what antifa actually does? Direct action is only a very small part of it.
Ok, this was a bit broad on my part. Much of the nonviolent work has been productive. I should be more careful to limit my criticism to their use of violence and militancy. Antifa is a diverse group, I suppose as any leaderless, unorganized group is bound to be. It think it's pretty reasonable to differentiate between those that advocate violence and those that don't. In cities where the cops haven't abandoned their duty, antifa is largely only active in lawful, productive ways. This thread is in specific context of Rose City Antifa, which is notable in their use of street violence.




Quote:
Funny, because they already seem to be doing just that. Look at how many progressives have been elected into office so far, and how many neo-Nazis and other fascists ousted from positions of private and governmental authority. Not enough, admittedly, but it's a start.
I fail to see how the election of progressives is due to antifa. Progressives elected progressive candidates, and I imagine the black-clad club-swinging bloc is not swinging elections. How many people do you think identify as Antifa? Of those, how many think that street violence is acceptable? Could all those club swinging goons get enough people together to elect a dog catcher or fill a conference room? I suspect not.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:42 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Addressed ad nauseum in other threads you've participated in.




The problem, as has been repeatedly acknowledged even by opponents of antifa, is that peaceful protest and lobbying hasn't worked very well so far. Go back and read the thread and you'll see just how often the police in Portland, for example, simply let the fascists run rampant despite clear and present threats of violence from them. Even armed fascists are given almost free rein by the authorities, because the authorities are much more sympathetic to the violent white supremacists than they are to the victims. Charlottesville showed what happens when non-violent peaceful protesters try to confront armed fascists. Non-violence in the face of an enemy who does not consider you equally human, and is willing to use violence to enforce their worldview on you, is not noble or principled, it's suicidal.
My impression of Charlottesville is that it was a disaster for the alt-right, at least in the eyes of the general public. Given the extremely one-sided nature of the violence, it was clear to anyone but the most extreme right-wingers who the villains were. Our terrorist car-driving villain is doing life in prison, and several others are serving serious jail time.

Charlottesville was probably the high water mark for many of the rising stars of the alt-right. Spencer and Cantwell are persona non grata in most of polite society.

The clean shaven, polo shirt wearing Alt-Right put their ugliness on full display there, and it did not help their cause.

I'd say it was a win, at dear cost, but a win nonetheless for liberal democracy.

It's hard to say for sure, because elections occurred on a fixed schedule. Perhaps I am wrong here, the next election may be telling whether the public is willing to continue its courtship with right-wing extremism.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:47 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
How do we know they are a small minority? You've continuously said there is no organization, no creed, which means no accountability. I haven't seen any internal policing of actions at all, in any video so far. Seems this stuff is widely accepted, otherwise there would be some push back don't you think?

You're contradicting yourself here.Push back from where, accountability from who? If there's no organization, then who is there to police them and hold them accountable?


Quote:
There was another incident at this event. From one account, some guy was milkshaked and got into a fight with the guy that did it (or whoever happened to be around). Fight breaks out, pepper sprays, fists thrown etc etc. Afterwards another fight breaks out with the same group involving some older guy. He's got his metal hat, metal baton, and in turn gets beat over the head by a bunch of 'antifa' guys with metal batons. Could have been started by anything of course, but once started sure escalated quickly. And they'll feel justified that they were 'defending themselves'.

I know the event you're talking about, and how the media distorted it by portraying the guy as just some old man with a cane. The guy (Roy something, I can't find the story at the moment, Facebook appears to have purged all stories related to the incident) was shown attempting to violently intimidate non-violent protesters (who would have thought a white supremacist would ever do that), and was responded to in kind. Having a hard time finding sympathy here.

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Especially when the right wingers number in the 2-3 dozen and the 'antifa' protesters number in the hundreds.

Want to take a guess how many of those antifa protesters are typically armed? Typically less than the number of fascists. Want to take a guess who the police are typically trying to protect? Little hint, it's not usually the protesters, violent or otherwise. Portland police have a long and sordid history of racist policing.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:58 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
My impression of Charlottesville is that it was a disaster for the alt-right, at least in the eyes of the general public. Given the extremely one-sided nature of the violence, it was clear to anyone but the most extreme right-wingers who the villains were. Our terrorist car-driving villain is doing life in prison, and several others are serving serious jail time.

Charlottesville was probably the high water mark for many of the rising stars of the alt-right. Spencer and Cantwell are persona non grata in most of polite society.

The clean shaven, polo shirt wearing Alt-Right put their ugliness on full display there, and it did not help their cause.

I'd say it was a win, at dear cost, but a win nonetheless for liberal democracy.

One can hope it is. I certainly hope it is. But a whole lot of the violent fascists and white supremacists got off scot free. And Spencer still has a huge following.

The fact that these events are on-going, the sheer number of armed fascist white supremacist groups who still insist on taking to the streets and violently intimidating minorities, is still very troubling; as is the number of law enforcement officials of all sorts who have been outed as members or sympathizers of white supremacists groups, or express violent white supremacist ideologies (I posted link to another thread about a HUGE Facebook group populated with Border Patrol agents expressing violent racist and sexist sentiments).

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It's hard to say for sure, because elections occurred on a fixed schedule. Perhaps I am wrong here, the next election may be telling whether the public is willing to continue its courtship with right-wing extremism.

Well, that will be the rub, won't it. I'm trying to be hopeful, but given everything that is going on, it's difficult. There has been a growing wave of progressive candidates for office, even in otherwise red states; and the rank-and-file Dems are proving to be more willing to hold their leadership's feet to the fire, so we will see.

Unfortunately, the hard-right in some states, including a couple battleground states, have managed enough gerrymandering and voter manipulation to have a good chance of holding back a large part of that wave. Still, change needs to come from the ground up, grassroots is still the best force for long-term change.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:04 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post

I know the event you're talking about, and how the media distorted it by portraying the guy as just some old man with a cane. The guy (Roy something, I can't find the story at the moment, Facebook appears to have purged all stories related to the incident) was shown attempting to violently intimidate non-violent protesters (who would have thought a white supremacist would ever do that), and was responded to in kind. Having a hard time finding sympathy here.
I read that his name was John and he apparently, and I'm not kidding, was beaten up by antifa whilst going to the aid of a gay man wearing a sun dress who was being chased.

https://twitter.com/michellemalkin/s...99833446391810

EDITED TO ADD.

This tweet shows "John" indeed does go to the aid of somebody in yellow...... with his baton drawn.


https://twitter.com/Johnnthelefty/st...76694339653632

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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:07 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
God is like clockwork.

Once the debate gets into trying to actually dive into any complex issue, everyone scrambles for something trump related to talk about to make themselves feel more confidant in their opinion.
Where did I mention Trump? (If this was even meant as a response to my post.)
I was mostly making a contrast between nazi and communist imagery in American culture. As well as commenting on the reactions to Che in this forum. No, I'm not a fan!

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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:15 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I read that his name was John and he apparently, and I'm not kidding, was beaten up by antifa whilst going to the aid of a gay man wearing a sun dress who was being chased.

https://twitter.com/michellemalkin/s...99833446391810
God, I haven't thought about Michelle Malkin in a long time. Look who she retweets.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:16 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I read that his name was John and he apparently, and I'm not kidding, was beaten up by antifa whilst going to the aid of a gay man wearing a sun dress who was being chased.

https://twitter.com/michellemalkin/s...99833446391810

EDITED TO ADD.

This tweet shows "John" indeed does go to the aid of somebody in yellow...... with his baton drawn. So, not quite as cut and dried as it might have been.


https://twitter.com/Johnnthelefty/st...76694339653632
Video of the fight

Definitely don't believe that feel good story put out there, no gay cross dresser in sight. Just a brawl between people looking for one by the looks of it. Would love to see some other video of the incident, but haven't seen any posted really.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:20 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
God, I haven't thought about Michelle Malkin in a long time. Look who she retweets.
I'm not interested in her in the slightest.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:24 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Video of the fight

Definitely don't believe that feel good story put out there, no gay cross dresser in sight. Just a brawl between people looking for one by the looks of it. Would love to see some other video of the incident, but haven't seen any posted really.
My post, which you quoted, has the same video linked. There is a video in amongst the two links I posted showing the earlier incident with the guy in yellow (didn't see a dress) but it's a stramash and difficult to make out anything.

ETA - Found it!

https://twitter.com/Johnnthelefty/st...52739742519296

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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:26 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I'm my 20s after a night at the bar, if I came across a legit sign with that prick's address, I'd for sure go cause some kind of ruckus. And i was the last crazy of my friends.
Just for the sake of clarification, that address is where his girlfriend lived at the time of publication (12-Dec-2018).

The dox appears to be directed at her specifically, along with her immediate family:

Quote:
Her hometown is in **********, Indiana. Her parents are ****** and **** Bobonick and their address is ****************************.
Not sure why that information was provided, perhaps in hopes that her parents will talk her out of this relationship?

Of course this sort of thing is protected speech in America, but it does seem a bit ominous when anonymous people start targeting innocent third parties like this. If the Bobonick house was intentionally burned down, I'd call it stochastic terrorism.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 03:04 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You're contradicting yourself here.Push back from where, accountability from who? If there's no organization, then who is there to police them and hold them accountable?
From the other people that are there?.. They don't have to convene the great council for there to be push back from the group about the action, instead of piling on.



Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I know the event you're talking about, and how the media distorted it by portraying the guy as just some old man with a cane. The guy (Roy something, I can't find the story at the moment, Facebook appears to have purged all stories related to the incident) was shown attempting to violently intimidate non-violent protesters (who would have thought a white supremacist would ever do that), and was responded to in kind. Having a hard time finding sympathy here.
No sympathy here either. More in regards to how it escalated from 'harmless' throwing of stuff to a baton battle.


Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Want to take a guess how many of those antifa protesters are typically armed? Typically less than the number of fascists. Want to take a guess who the police are typically trying to protect? Little hint, it's not usually the protesters, violent or otherwise. Portland police have a long and sordid history of racist policing.
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Yes, definitely looks like those right wing protesters are as numerous and well armed..

Video of police having stuff thrown at them by the counter protesters

Yup, see no reason at all why they might end up arresting some left wing protesters..

It feels like you are mad at the police for actually doing their job and not letting the two groups fight it out. Guess that's them 'protecting the white nationalists'. And if they didn't do that and someone gets hurt, we blame them for the resulting injuries. Normally not one to defend police but seems like a real catch-22 we got going on with that thinking.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:06 PM   #265
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Another take:
https://uncommongroundmedia.com/milk...GrQ3Ue8rujdpXU
Quote:
It has been claimed that since the far right relies on pride and macho posturing, humiliation through the tossing of liquids is an effective approach.

This could not be further from the truth, however. The fuel which feeds far right sentiments is exactly that – humiliation. A high internal self-worth which conflicts with perceived social treatment. This sense of shame is an enormous motivator of violent actions, and the targets tend to be those whom the attacker considers to have lower social status.

It should not come as a surprise, then, to learn that many of those targeted for violence – even by the far left – are women or ethnic minorities.
and
Quote:
It falls to those of us without such desires to expose and condemn abuse wherever we uncover it, whether in political movements or institutions, no matter our feelings about the targets chosen.

History has shown that left wing groups which glorify violence and suppression of their enemies will quickly morph into fascists as their composition and attracted demographic shifts.
antifa has already "morphed" into fascism.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:38 PM   #266
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https://babylonbee.com/news/antifa-s...lw00O4BKLlqWm8
Quote:
“So I had my mask on and was ready to fight any nazis that came to Portland -- because I guess the city is full of them -- and then I saw one,” explained Day. “You could tell from just one look at the guy that he was a crazed sociopath looking for any excuse to get violent.” That’s when Day said he ran up and attempted to punch the nazi, but instead his fist hit some sort of “invisible shield.” He then screamed, “Advanced nazi technology!” and ran away.

Further investigation of where Day says he encountered the nazi revealed only a broken mirror hanging on the wall.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:25 PM   #267
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Babylon bee is a parody site, just in case anyone didn’t know.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:57 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Babylon bee is a parody site, just in case anyone didn’t know.
Yes, it’s a parody. But is it?
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheBabylo...39106917523456
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:21 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Your post above is ridiculous.





One of the attackers at the Rose City Antifa event was doing the attacking while wearing a Rose City Antifa T-shirt. But hey maybe he’s just a fan like a sports fan wearing a jersey.

I actually have specific interest in the Portland Antifa guys; they have caused me to reconsider Antifa in general after listening to them. I obviously don’t want them banned as a terrorist organization.

As we speak, there are some antifa type folks doing a little activism in my neighborhood. Apparently Richard Spencer lives here now and they are outing him. I’m becoming more sympathetic to them as I think more about it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3bdcfb0f3f.jpg
My post above is straight to the point of what you waded in on. My only contention is that the OP wanted to declare Terrorism Season Is Open on some nebulous concept of Antifa.

If you were just chiming in to point out that RCA use an upper case A, then frankly, you're in the wrong conversation. I'm going to imagine that the Bay City Rollers use an upper case R. Does that make "Roller" an official designation of some sort?

You also need to remember that I'm pro-protest, pro-civil disobedience. Part of that legacy is owning your actions. I'm against hit-and-run tactics, attacking in a mask. There is no contradiction between me saying that you can't outlaw a nebulously described group and saying that the perps should be arrested and prosecuted. It's part of the process when you commit to civil disobedience. I'm pretty sure I disagree, in principle, in attacking an unarmed person, but that's a personal choice for me. Ngo's opinions are certainly reprehensible enough to merit disdain, even hatred. If one is so angered that they feel that that merit's a physical attack, at least stand up and be counted. Don't run in and strike and fade into the crowd. I'm intimately familiar with the old "tombs" in NYC. Never faced prosecution 'cuz they'd lock us up overnight and mass-release everyone in the morning, but we were waving our faces with our flags.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:34 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm resisting the urge to go through Ngo's claims one-by-one until we've established that punching people in the head isn't the way to deal with errant journalists and/or editorialists. I would hate to think that by critiquing his claims of fact or value I would be indirectly inciting violence.

Ngo is not an "errant journalist". He is a liar whose lies are meant to incite violence against Muslims.
So much for your fear of "indirectly inciting violence."
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:39 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Because his freedom to lie is far more important to us and concerning than the fact that he lied.

Yes, his freedom to lie is far more important to you than what he accomplishes with his lies, the consequences of and the targets of his lies since they don't have the freedom to be protected from his lies and from the people who are inspired by his lies.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:44 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Right wing protesters

Left wing - mostly antifa-ish mix

There are also some photos of just regular 'left wing' protesters that seem to be decently numbered and just regular people, no protective gear etc. separate from the other group.

Impression from the pictures and updates from people on the ground pretty much match my initial view. As much as a few posters here seem to position 'antifa' as protectors, definitely seem to be antagonizers in general looking for a fight.

Another reason the whole "they are egging/milkshaking to humiliate" schtick doesn't sit well with me. It's a means to entice a fight, not a deterrent to violence.
Nice.

Here's a film of Proud Boys in Portland being really nice boys.

https://twitter.com/DavidNeiwert/sta...21528711811072

They are "right wing protesters", by the way.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:47 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
good grief what is wrong with you? you are like Donald Trump declaring "Fake News!" to anything you don't like.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/antifa-...st-11562021361
Headline:
Antifa Attacks a Journalist
Wall Street Journal misidentifies guy with blog as journalist.

News at 11.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:51 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The thing about having the address easily available is that it lowers the bar, making it more likely that someone might do something on impulse. Even if they could do the same thing with effort, requiring that effort still provides some measure of protection against crazies. Posting that address has the effect of lowering that protection.

Nazi hate mongering lowers the bar, making it more likely that someone might do something on impulse. Like claiming that Muslims control certain areas of London, for instance. Does anybody think that lies like this one don't make it more likely that someone might do "something" (and not only "on impulse" but also premeditated) to Muslims?!
And yet it seems to be extremely important to some people to protect the freedom to tell lies like that.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:53 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Nice.

Here's a film of Proud Boys in Portland being really nice boys.

https://twitter.com/DavidNeiwert/sta...21528711811072

It really makes one want to protect their rights, right?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:57 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It really makes one want to protect their rights, right?!
Really makes what happened to that fascist blogger seem so much worse, doesn't it? I mean, he was punched and egged and milkshaked. This guy was simply kicked and beaten with a baton. A couple dozen times. By multiple assailants.

But poor poor Andy Ngo.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:44 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Ngo is not an "errant journalist". He is a liar whose lies are meant to incite violence against Muslims.
So much for your fear of "indirectly inciting violence."
An Enemy of the People?

How has he tried to "incite violence" against anyone? By demonizing him, and legitimizing the violent attacks against him, are you not "inciting violence" yourself?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:52 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
An Enemy of the People?
No, that's normal journalists according to people like Andy Ngo.

Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
How has he tried to "incite violence" against anyone?
By lying about muslims. Serisously, it's been spelled out for you.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 02:32 AM   #279
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The lure of vigilantism is strong in this thread.

If anyone had wondered how people who considered themselves good people could be part of lynch mobs, just read this thread.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 03:14 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I fail to see how the election of progressives is due to antifa. Progressives elected progressive candidates, and I imagine the black-clad club-swinging bloc is not swinging elections. How many people do you think identify as Antifa? Of those, how many think that street violence is acceptable? Could all those club swinging goons get enough people together to elect a dog catcher or fill a conference room? I suspect not.
And yet we are all supposed to feel bad that some antifa woman got run over by a car. If she was a proper person she wouldn't have been protesting the unite the right rally. She was asking for it.
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