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Old 8th July 2019, 01:13 PM   #161
Faydra
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I get the point, I think.


People are so much more upset by Trumps corruption than all others that came before, but his corruption is by order of magnitude so much more blatant. He corrupts in front of you and then insults your intelligence by claiming you didn't see what he just did.

It's much harder to swallow his brand of corruption.
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:30 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I get the point, I think.


People are so much more upset by Trumps corruption than all others that came before, but his corruption is by order of magnitude so much more blatant. He corrupts in front of you and then insults your intelligence by claiming you didn't see what he just did.

It's much harder to swallow his brand of corruption.

Certainly makes U.S. Grant look better in retrospect.
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:33 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
I get the point, I think.


People are so much more upset by Trumps corruption than all others that came before, but his corruption is by order of magnitude so much more blatant. He corrupts in front of you and then insults your intelligence by claiming you didn't see what he just did.

It's much harder to swallow his brand of corruption.
His corruption may be more blatant, but I don't think it's an order of magnitude more severe. I think it's less severe, actually, and for the same reason it's so blatant. Because he's an amateur, not politically connected.

But look here, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Right after you acknowledge that politicians are typically corrupt, you act like Trump invented insulting your intelligence by pretending he's not. In fact all politicians do this.
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:42 PM   #164
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Maybe he's not politically connected, but he's politically protected.

Let's say person A steals my car at 3am when I'm asleep and then tells me "I didn't do that".
Person B takes the keys out of my hand, gets in the car and drives away and then later tells me "I didn't do that".
My intelligence has been insulted to a greater extent by Person B.
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:20 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His corruption may be more blatant, but I don't think it's an order of magnitude more severe. I think it's less severe, actually, and for the same reason it's so blatant. Because he's an amateur, not politically connected.

But look here, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Right after you acknowledge that politicians are typically corrupt, you act like Trump invented insulting your intelligence by pretending he's not. In fact all politicians do this.
The doing it so blatantly without being held to account is a massive problem in itself. It is a giving up of your values. This makes the US a nation that stands for nothing but self interest and nakedly run by wealthy elites who screw over ordinary people while enriching themselves. Get some clothes on America and make an effort again, especially the bloody values party.
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Old 8th July 2019, 04:32 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His corruption may be more blatant, but I don't think it's an order of magnitude more severe. I think it's less severe, actually, and for the same reason it's so blatant. Because he's an amateur, not politically connected.

But look here, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Right after you acknowledge that politicians are typically corrupt, you act like Trump invented insulting your intelligence by pretending he's not. In fact all politicians do this.
No, he is not doing 'exactly' what you're talking about. Nowhere did he say or imply "that Donald Trump invented corruption and dishonesty in politics. They talk as if the long history of political bad behavior doesn't exist, and that these things all started when Donald Trump took office." He said people are more upset about it due to it being so damned blatant. I give you a Pinocchio.

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Old 9th July 2019, 08:52 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His corruption may be more blatant, but I don't think it's an order of magnitude more severe. I think it's less severe, actually, and for the same reason it's so blatant. Because he's an amateur, not politically connected.
That's a bizarre way of looking at things: Trump's corruption isn't as bad as other Presidents because it's more blatant? You don't have a problem with blatant corruption? And please, Trump isn't politically connected? That is hogwash. But hey, if it's blatant nonsense does that make it ok?
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:54 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
And please, Trump isn't politically connected?
What, why his close relationship with the Clintons, then? It's not because they were part of the real estate development scene in NY. So why was he schmoozing with them?

Heck, there's pictures of him with Reagan.

As someone noted the other day, Trump is completely immersed in the dirty money of politics - it's just that until now, he's been on the other side.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:03 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
What, why his close relationship with the Clintons, then? It's not because they were part of the real estate development scene in NY. So why was he schmoozing with them?

Heck, there's pictures of him with Reagan.

As someone noted the other day, Trump is completely immersed in the dirty money of politics - it's just that until now, he's been on the other side.
I was unclear, I was questioning theprestige's claim that Trump isn't politically connected, not making such a stupid claim myself.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:11 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I was unclear, I was questioning theprestige's claim that Trump isn't politically connected, not making such a stupid claim myself.
I know. And I was supporting that by pointing out all the specific politician relationships he has had.

I felt your statement warranted further expansion.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:15 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
His corruption may be more blatant, but I don't think it's an order of magnitude more severe. I think it's less severe, actually, and for the same reason it's so blatant. Because he's an amateur, not politically connected.

But look here, you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Right after you acknowledge that politicians are typically corrupt, you act like Trump invented insulting your intelligence by pretending he's not. In fact all politicians do this.
Trump is not a politicians.
And he is orders of magnitude worse.
McConnell might come close, though.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:05 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
That's a bizarre way of looking at things: Trump's corruption isn't as bad as other Presidents because it's more blatant? You don't have a problem with blatant corruption? And please, Trump isn't politically connected? That is hogwash. But hey, if it's blatant nonsense does that make it ok?
A metaphor: Political corruption in the federal government is a supermassive black hole, tastefully hidden behind an institutional event horizon.

Donald Trump's political corruption is the critical mass of one man, garishly exposed as a naked singularity. It looks horrific, but its gravitational influence is much smaller. Trump's eccentric orbit will take him in and out of Washington, scrabbling hard to peel off as many motes of stardust as he can along the way. And when he leaves the neighborhood, the SMBH will still be there, still dragging on the entire nation from its place at the heart of things. Still holding to itself the vast majority of all the stardust to be had. Regulatory capture, crony capitalism, the revolving door of the political lobby. All these things are having worse and longer lasting effects than Trump's transit of Washington's sky. Not all such apparitions are actually harbingers of doom.

You're getting all agitated about the novelty of the naked singularity. I'm saying that as as horrific as it looks, it's not - by far - the largest gravitational influence we live under.

Last edited by theprestige; 9th July 2019 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:33 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A metaphor: Political corruption in the federal government is a supermassive black hole, tastefully hidden behind an institutional event horizon.

Donald Trump's political corruption is the critical mass of one man, garishly exposed as a naked singularity. It looks horrific, but its gravitational influence is much smaller. Trump's eccentric orbit will take him in and out of Washington, scrabbling hard to peel off as many motes of stardust as he can along the way. And when he leaves the neighborhood, the SMBH will still be there, still dragging on the entire nation from its place at the heart of things. Still holding to itself the vast majority of all the stardust to be had. Regulatory capture, crony capitalism, the revolving door of the political lobby. All these things are having worse and longer lasting effects than Trump's transit of Washington's sky. Not all such apparitions are actually harbingers of doom.

You're getting all agitated about the novelty of the naked singularity. I'm saying that as as horrific as it looks, it's not - by far - the largest gravitational influence we live under.
Are you somehow under the impression that Trump isn't involved in political lobbying or crony capitalism? He's doing the SMBH stuff in plain sight, in addition to all his other corrupt and dishonest acts.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:57 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Are you somehow under the impression that Trump isn't involved in political lobbying or crony capitalism? He's doing the SMBH stuff in plain sight, in addition to all his other corrupt and dishonest acts.
Trump does what Trump can. He's not particularly connected, outside of New York (and probably not even there). McConnnell doesn't owe him any favors. He has nothing of lasting political value to offer in quid pro quo. What's the biggest example of corruption from the Trump administration? Charging the Secret Service for their stay at Mar a Lago? That's penny-ante, amateur-hour stuff.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:05 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Trump does what Trump can. He's not particularly connected, outside of New York (and probably not even there). McConnnell doesn't owe him any favors. He has nothing of lasting political value to offer in quid pro quo. What's the biggest example of corruption from the Trump administration? Charging the Secret Service for their stay at Mar a Lago? That's penny-ante, amateur-hour stuff.
That's certainly a penny-ante example. If that's the largest one you are aware of, your lack knowledge of what Trump has been publicly doing in office is rivaled by your lack of knowledge of Trump's political connections before and during his current political office of President. Oh, wait, did Trump's SMBH of corruption suck all knowledge of his corruption and dishonesty right out?
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:29 AM   #176
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You're entitled to your opinion. If you're convinced that Donald Trump is plugged into the institutional corruption in federal politics, my metaphor certainly isn't going to change your mind. Nor did I intend it to.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:28 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A metaphor: Political corruption in the federal government is a supermassive black hole, tastefully hidden behind an institutional event horizon.

Donald Trump's political corruption is the critical mass of one man, garishly exposed as a naked singularity. It looks horrific, but its gravitational influence is much smaller. Trump's eccentric orbit will take him in and out of Washington, scrabbling hard to peel off as many motes of stardust as he can along the way. And when he leaves the neighborhood, the SMBH will still be there, still dragging on the entire nation from its place at the heart of things. Still holding to itself the vast majority of all the stardust to be had. Regulatory capture, crony capitalism, the revolving door of the political lobby. All these things are having worse and longer lasting effects than Trump's transit of Washington's sky. Not all such apparitions are actually harbingers of doom.

You're getting all agitated about the novelty of the naked singularity. I'm saying that as as horrific as it looks, it's not - by far - the largest gravitational influence we live under.
Oh, so you think he's merely an island of corruption instead of a continent of corruption, huh?

I guess the ignorance, arrogance, lies, and incompetence were all just bonuses for you.

LOL!
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:53 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so you think he's merely an island of corruption instead of a continent of corruption, huh?



I guess the ignorance, arrogance, lies, and incompetence were all just bonuses for you.



LOL!
That's another good metaphor. It lacks the nuance of the naked singularity image, though.

All the other stuff is no more a bonus for me than it is for you, when it comes to any politician we have to put up with.

Up with which we have to put.
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:33 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's another good metaphor. It lacks the nuance of the naked singularity image, though.

All the other stuff is no more a bonus for me than it is for you, when it comes to any politician we have to put up with.

Up with which we have to put.
Of course, as expected, you miss the point: If you haven't figured it out yet, that part about it all being a bonus was actually a joke....

....what it instead should be is.....Disqualifying.....

.....but it's your prerogative to have such low standards for the people you vote for.

The people for whom you vote.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:05 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Of course, as expected, you miss the point: If you haven't figured it out yet, that part about it all being a bonus was actually a joke....

....what it instead should be is.....Disqualifying.....

.....but it's your prerogative to have such low standards for the people you vote for.

The people for whom you vote.
No more disqualifying for me than for you, is my point.
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:12 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No more disqualifying for me than for you, is my point.
...which is completely irrelevant to my point, which is that it should be disqualifying for anyone.
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:49 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
...which is completely irrelevant to my point, which is that it should be disqualifying for anyone.
Ah. Sorry for the confusion. I was saying that it doesn't disqualify politicians for me, any more than it disqualifies politicians for you.

Having it be disqualifying for any politician is a nice ideal, but not a practical reality. In 2020, you're going to vote against Trump, and for some other politician with enough ignorance, arrogance, lies, and incompetence to disqualify anyone. But you'll vote for them anyway. Because it's not any more disqualifying for you than it is for me.
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Old 9th July 2019, 05:57 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ah. Sorry for the confusion. I was saying that it doesn't disqualify politicians for me, any more than it disqualifies politicians for you.
That's a rather astounding lack of reading comprehension on your part; I was quite clear that it disqualifies Trump for me.

Quote:
Having it be disqualifying for any politician is a nice ideal, but not a practical reality. In 2020, you're going to vote against Trump, and for some other politician with enough ignorance, arrogance, lies, and incompetence to disqualify anyone. But you'll vote for them anyway. Because it's not any more disqualifying for you than it is for me.
Trump is the only mainstream presidential candidate in my lifetime to have a disqualifying level of ignorance, arrogance, lies, and incompetence for my vote. The fact that you are incapable of seeing this is the source of your perpetual confusion, nothing else. You persist in pretending that Trump is within normal parameters for these metrics but, well, I can't open your eyes for you. Denial and indoctrination are rather powerful things. Some people prefer being blind.
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Old 10th July 2019, 12:56 AM   #184
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It's the stupidity, compounded with extreme ignorance, that bothers me most about him. Many of the world's leaders he's dealing with have brilliant minds and are extremely well-informed. Xi, Putin, Merkel, Macron. These people are serious. Trump's not. If only national pride were at stake maybe it wouldn't be so bad, but it's around substantive issues. With his meager knowledge of history, boredom with world affairs and aversion to learning, he's bound to get walked all over no matter how smart he thinks he's being.

Re: The corruption. Trump is so open, about some of it at least, that he seems compelled to brag about it. Like, he gloated that the law was totally on his side when it came to him personally profiting from office. And that does seem to be true to some extent. The way laws are written, other elected officials have much more accountability than the president. He's thrilled he can get away with it. He's proud of it. Stealth is not his thing.

I don't know if that makes him less likely to dabble behind the scenes but I don't think he'd be very competent at it. Would you cut Trump in on it if you were getting payoffs in return for political favors? I don't think I would.
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Old 10th July 2019, 02:37 AM   #185
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The other world leaders who are corrupt ********* are clever corrupt ********* who can at least maintain a dignified, non moron level of plausible deniability.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:32 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're entitled to your opinion. If you're convinced that Donald Trump is plugged into the institutional corruption in federal politics, my metaphor certainly isn't going to change your mind. Nor did I intend it to.
While I appreciate your generousness in allowing me to be aware of Trump's corruption, I can only wish you would allow yourself the same freedom. I simply don't believe that you are unaware of Trump giving money to politicians for decades, awarding political jobs to unqualified cronies, personally lobbying for money for his friends and his own businesses, personally profiting from his political position, and participation in the revolving door of business/lobbyist/politician. I'm sure I can go on with more of his corrupt activities, but I'm going to give you time to handwave away this stuff first.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:59 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
While I appreciate your generousness in allowing me to be aware of Trump's corruption, I can only wish you would allow yourself the same freedom. I simply don't believe that you are unaware of Trump giving money to politicians for decades, awarding political jobs to unqualified cronies, personally lobbying for money for his friends and his own businesses, personally profiting from his political position, and participation in the revolving door of business/lobbyist/politician. I'm sure I can go on with more of his corrupt activities, but I'm going to give you time to handwave away this stuff first.
I'm aware of all these things. These are reprehensible acts, but they are also normal acts in both business and politics. To complain about Trump doing these things is to complain about everyone doing these things. But you don't complain about everyone, so I don't really give a **** when you complain about Trump. It's special pleading, plain and simple.

I think there is also a difference between a private citizen coming to the political machine as a supplicant, doing what he can to gain a business advantage similar to those of his competitors; and a career politician who has spent years working his way up the ranks of the machine, profiting from the citizens who must appeal to his corrupt power, and horse-trading the interests of those supplicants with his corrupt peers. Trump becoming President doesn't magically put him in charge of this corrupt system. The power of the executive branch gives him some leverage with those who run it, but so far I don't think we've seen any significant use of this leverage. Mitch McConnnell has been a US Senator for over 30 years. How many favors do you think Trump has been able to bank with the Senate, greasing palms in New York?

In fact, I think Trump probably doesn't have any favors with the Senate. He's not part of the GOP establishment. He's not anyone they ever wanted in office. They're working with him because they'd be fools not to, but if they could figure out a way to kick him to the curb without pissing off their voters even more, I think they would.

"But Donald Trump is so corrupt!"

Yeah, well, everyone is corrupt. This time around, I wanted a small-time corrupt real estate developer from New York, rather than a big-time corrupt establishment politician from whatever hell politicians come from. Probably Arkansas. Or New York. Or Arizona. Or Utah.

And this time around, in a Christmas Miracle of electoral revolt, I actually got what I wanted. And so far, it's turned out about as well as I'd hoped. Better than I probably had any right to expect, so I'm pretty grateful.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:02 AM   #188
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And what about the corrupt people Trump is shielding, like Kushner?
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:06 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm aware of all these things. These are reprehensible acts, but they are also normal acts in both business and politics. To complain about Trump doing these things is to complain about everyone doing these things. But you don't complain about everyone, so I don't really give a **** when you complain about Trump. It's special pleading, plain and simple.
Hold the phone...you said earlier that Trump's blatant corruption wasn't as bad as the SMBH of corruption in politics. Now here you are, admitting that Trump's doing all that stuff as well as his own dishonest and petty criminal and corrupt acts on top. I don't think you understand what special pleading is.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:20 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
And what about the corrupt people Trump is shielding, like Kushner?
What about them? Trump didn't invent this practice when he took office.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:21 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Hold the phone...you said earlier that Trump's blatant corruption wasn't as bad as the SMBH of corruption in politics. Now here you are, admitting that Trump's doing all that stuff as well as his own dishonest and petty criminal and corrupt acts on top. I don't think you understand what special pleading is.
A big star and a small star both have gravity, and it's the same kind of thing for both of them. One just has a lot less of it.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:28 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What about them? Trump didn't invent this practice when he took office.
neither is he doing anything to stop it.

Trump ran on a platform of being incorruptible due to his wealth and fame.
Realizing that, in his own way, he is just as corrupt as people having spend their career in the sometime swampy politics of Washington must come as a disappointment.
Or did you not expect more from Trump than only being a different kind of swamp creature?
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:37 AM   #193
wareyin
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A big star and a small star both have gravity, and it's the same kind of thing for both of them. One just has a lot less of it.
You haven't demonstrated that Trump has less corruption. Rather, you've demonstrated that he has more, that you know he has more, and that you're still grateful to have his corrupt, dishonest self in charge. You're free to feel grateful for his corruption of course, but whining about corruption in general while being happy that your guy is openly, brazenly corrupt is just that thing you also whined about....what was it....oh yeah, special pleading.
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Old 10th July 2019, 09:15 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
neither is he doing anything to stop it.
Yep. We can pretty much consider "drain the swamp" a broken campaign promise. Another thing Trump didn't invent.

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Trump ran on a platform of being incorruptible due to his wealth and fame.
And Barack Obama ran on a platform of smart power and resetting the Russian relationship. So what?

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Realizing that, in his own way, he is just as corrupt as people having spend their career in the sometime swampy politics of Washington must come as a disappointment.
Mostly I'm too cynical to be disappointed by this kind of thing anymore. Besides, I realized this about Trump before my hopes got very high to begin with, so there wasn't much scope for disappointment.

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Or did you not expect more from Trump than only being a different kind of swamp creature?
I expected from Trump a lot of buffoonery, as much amateur corruption as he could muster, and an administration that pretty much stayed the course set by its predecessors.

What I didn't expect, until around October 2016, was that Trump's election would cause over half the country to lose their brains and go into perpetual freakout mode.
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Old 10th July 2019, 09:17 AM   #195
theprestige
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
You haven't demonstrated that Trump has less corruption. Rather, you've demonstrated that he has more, that you know he has more, and that you're still grateful to have his corrupt, dishonest self in charge. You're free to feel grateful for his corruption of course, but whining about corruption in general while being happy that your guy is openly, brazenly corrupt is just that thing you also whined about....what was it....oh yeah, special pleading.
Good point. I'll take that into consideration.
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Old 10th July 2019, 09:38 AM   #196
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What I didn't expect, until around October 2016, was that Trump's election would cause over half the country to lose their brains and go into perpetual freakout mode.
same happend with Obama - which I didn't expect.
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Old 10th July 2019, 09:43 AM   #197
wareyin
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
same happend with Obama - which I didn't expect.
I'd say it was less than half the country who lost their minds over Obama. Really though, he wore a tan suit, so of course that's worse than creating concentration camps for children that also personally enrich your cronies.
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Old 10th July 2019, 10:01 AM   #198
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Old 10th July 2019, 10:49 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I'd say it was less than half the country who lost their minds over Obama. Really though, he wore a tan suit, so of course that's worse than creating concentration camps for children that also personally enrich your cronies.
He didn't wear a flag pin that time!!!!!! Just like committing felonies to violate campaign finance law.
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Old 10th July 2019, 10:59 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
And what about the corrupt people Trump is shielding, like Kushner?
And Acosta makes Kushner look like a innocent when it comes to corruption.
And it's I sno longer a case of Just Trump, I think the whole GOP has become totally corrupt in it's blind lust for power. Acosta would have been gone by now in any previous administration.
And more and more I ma convinced there is no good ending to this. Massive domestic violence is coming, no matter what happens in 2020. We have passed the point of no return .
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