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Old 9th July 2019, 07:04 PM   #1
acbytesla
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Does the Bible make God out to be stupid and insecure?

Is it just me?

But it seems to me that the Christian story if God makes him/her/it to be stupid and insecure.

IMV, if there is a god that created the universe, this being would be smart and secure in his/her self.

After all, this being reportedly created the entire universe. That's a billion trillion stars and probably 5 times that many planets surrounding each star. Almost 9 million species on earth with a few hundreds of one species to trillions of another. That's pretty badass if you ask me.

Yet the Christian bible is filled with commands that we praise and worship this being. Given everything this being has supposedly done, do you really think this badass being would want and need that from one of those species?

Then take a look at the story of Jesus. God created the earth by simply saying it. Yet to forgive man for not praising him enough, he impregnated a jewish woman and transformed himself into the child of that woman so that child could be tortured and killed?

Even the dumbest person would simply forgive man instead of going through such a farcical scheme.

Am I wrong?
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Old 9th July 2019, 07:52 PM   #2
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There are many atheists who would agree with you.

I doubt you'd find many Christians who would.
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:01 PM   #3
The Great Zaganza
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The biblical God talks and acts like a jealous husband who will punish for transgressions real or imagined; he is scared that people will leave him, fully aware that there are other, much better Gods out there.
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:15 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There are many atheists who would agree with you.

I doubt you'd find many Christians who would.
I don't know about that. Even when I was a Christian, I thought that was the weakest part of the story. I think a lot of Christians struggle with that. They may accept it and still think the explanation given for it is troublesome.
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:20 PM   #5
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:21 PM   #6
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I figure a real god would be so strange and so utterly other that we'd never figure it out, and given our uncertainty after all this time it's safe to assume it either does not exist in any sense that we can perceive, or does not care. Either way, the ones people have come up with so far seem like little more than some guy saying "this is what I'd do if I were a god," and the result is about as lame as you'd expect.

e.t.a. I would add that the thread heading is not great. The Bible makes a god, but if there were an actual god it would not let anyone make it do or be anything.
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:44 PM   #7
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Who cares what it says in the bible, it seems obvious to me God had nothing to do with it.
Its mostly the ramblings of the Jewish tribe trying to elevate themselves. Its no more meaningful than the religious theologies of the ancient Egyptians, or the Romans or Greeks.

But this does not mean there is no God, it just means he leaves us to work things out for ourselves.
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:45 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't know about that. Even when I was a Christian, I thought that was the weakest part of the story. I think a lot of Christians struggle with that. They may accept it and still think the explanation given for it is troublesome.
Have you actually spoken to them about it? Or is it just a suspicion based on your own experiences?

I'll tell you my experience - that Christians who think about this at all (and many do not) will say that God is almighty and all-powerful, and all those instances where he seems stupid and insecure are just Satan messing with you and planting doubts in your mind. They would be absolutely firm in their conviction that God is neither stupid nor insecure.

Those Christians who do think that God might be stupid or insecure tend to end up as atheists, like you.

And me.
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I figure a real god would be so strange and so utterly other that we'd never figure it out, and given our uncertainty after all this time it's safe to assume it either does not exist in any sense that we can perceive, or does not care. Either way, the ones people have come up with so far seem like little more than some guy saying "this is what I'd do if I were a god," and the result is about as lame as you'd expect.

e.t.a. I would add that the thread heading is not great. The Bible makes a god, but if there were an actual god it would not let anyone make it do or be anything.
Theists inevitably anthropomorphize their idea of God. The god of the bible has the worst traits of man. He's petty, he's cruel, he's needy and of course God is a "he".

Now if you don't think God is these things you haven't read the bible. The Old Testament is filled with horrible acts either committed by God or ordered by God or done in his name.

His neediness is in almost every part of scripture from the beginning to the end. Consider the Ten commandments. They are emblematic of a narcissistic and a weak need to adored. The first four are essentially about fulfilling that need. The next 5 make some sense and the last one is a thought crime. Can you imagine the economy if people didn't want what their neighbor had?

And if you think the new Testament is better, you have totally forgot Hell. The lake of fire and gnashing of teeth is entirely a New Testament idea. In the Old Testament, God may torture you, but it ends. At least you can ******* die.
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:54 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Have you actually spoken to them about it? Or is it just a suspicion based on your own experiences?

I'll tell you my experience - that Christians who think about this at all (and many do not) will say that God is almighty and all-powerful, and all those instances where he seems stupid and insecure are just Satan messing with you and planting doubts in your mind. They would be absolutely firm in their conviction that God is neither stupid nor insecure.

Those Christians who do think that God might be stupid or insecure tend to end up as atheists, like you.

And me.
They would never call God stupid or insecure. On that point, you are right. But pretty much everyone asks the question why doesn't god just forgive man?
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Old 9th July 2019, 08:58 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
They would never call God stupid or insecure. On that point, you are right. But pretty much everyone asks the question why doesn't god just forgive man?
"Mysterious ways". God has a plan. Sin and redemption are an important part of that plan. God knows best. *shrug*

All I'm saying is that atheists (and antitheists) interpret the Bible in ways that actual believers do not. And so the objections that atheists (and antitheists) have don't necessarily apply.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:01 PM   #12
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That is the biggest problem with the Judeo-Christian God, or any god who judges humans. Why does he demand worship and praise? It's so grossly anthropomorphic and many more casual churchgoers don't say it out loud. But I know they're thinking it.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:01 PM   #13
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Thing is, the Old Testament God doesn't have an elaborate plan: he tells exactly what he is doing and why.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
That is the biggest problem with the Judeo-Christian God, or any god who judges humans. Why does he demand worship and praise? It's so grossly anthropomorphic and many more casual churchgoers don't say it out loud. But I know they're thinking it.
Do you? How do you know that?
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you? How do you know that?
I might bring it up one day and they'll tell me I have a point here and there.

I often get told but if this isn't true....then that might not be true either. gasp! So they wind back into their shell and try not to think about it.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:15 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I might bring it up one day and they'll tell me I have a point here and there.

I often get told but if this isn't true....then that might not be true either. gasp! So they wind back into their shell and try not to think about it.
Right. Any decent Christian will rationalise it somehow in their own mind. They might ask their pastor, if they think it's worth it, who will give them some platitude that satisfies them. If it doesn't... Hi, have you met me? I'm talking from direct personal experience right now.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:19 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
"Mysterious ways". God has a plan. Sin and redemption are an important part of that plan. God knows best. *shrug*

All I'm saying is that atheists (and antitheists) interpret the Bible in ways that actual believers do not. And so the objections that atheists (and antitheists) have don't necessarily apply.
Yes, that is how they answer this. I was a Christian for 30 years. But Christians sometimes do talk about these things. Some shrug it off much faster than others. There are Christians with doubts. So yes atheists and antitheists look at it differently, but believers are not monolithic in their thinking.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yes, that is how they answer this. I was a Christian for 30 years. But Christians sometimes do talk about these things. Some shrug it off much faster than others. There are Christians with doubts. So yes atheists and antitheists look at it differently, but believers are not monolithic in their thinking.
That's very true, which is why it's difficult to generalise from one's own experience in one church to all Christians everywhere.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:48 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Theists inevitably anthropomorphize their idea of God. The god of the bible has the worst traits of man. He's petty, he's cruel, he's needy and of course God is a "he".

Now if you don't think God is these things you haven't read the bible. The Old Testament is filled with horrible acts either committed by God or ordered by God or done in his name.

His neediness is in almost every part of scripture from the beginning to the end. Consider the Ten commandments. They are emblematic of a narcissistic and a weak need to adored. The first four are essentially about fulfilling that need. The next 5 make some sense and the last one is a thought crime. Can you imagine the economy if people didn't want what their neighbor had?

And if you think the new Testament is better, you have totally forgot Hell. The lake of fire and gnashing of teeth is entirely a New Testament idea. In the Old Testament, God may torture you, but it ends. At least you can ******* die.
Since as I recall a theist means more or less a person who believes in a personal god with whom one can deal, it's pretty much a given that such a god will be anthropomorphized. Right from the start, a personal god depends on the limitation of human imagination, an unlikely attribute for an actual god.

I do have to dispute one thing. Coveting is not wanting things like what your neighbor has. It's wanting the very things he has, at his expense. When you covet your neighbor's wife, you're not after her sister.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:30 PM   #20
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The god of the Bible is cruel, vindictive, egocentric and botchy... from the point of view of modern-day human beings. It is the image of the men who created it. I don't know very well how Christians fit the stories of their primitive god with their modern way of living. I know quite a few educated Christians who sublimate their beliefs. They recognize that the Bible is a primitive book written by primitive men, but they believe that there is something like a "message" to decipher in it. Why in the Bible and not in Beowulf's poem is long and confusing to explain. What worries me is why the mass of ordinary Christians believe. I think it is a rather complicated subject because there is not a typical Christian, but different answers for the same cult. What I see in forums makes my hair stand on end: it seems that, under the layer of modernity, people are still as primitive as those who dedicated themselves to get rid of the Amalakites. Nothing reassuring.
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:49 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Is it just me?

But it seems to me that the Christian story if God makes him/her/it to be stupid and insecure.

IMV, if there is a god that created the universe, this being would be smart and secure in his/her self.

After all, this being reportedly created the entire universe. That's a billion trillion stars and probably 5 times that many planets surrounding each star. Almost 9 million species on earth with a few hundreds of one species to trillions of another. That's pretty badass if you ask me.

Yet the Christian bible is filled with commands that we praise and worship this being. Given everything this being has supposedly done, do you really think this badass being would want and need that from one of those species?

Then take a look at the story of Jesus. God created the earth by simply saying it. Yet to forgive man for not praising him enough, he impregnated a jewish woman and transformed himself into the child of that woman so that child could be tortured and killed?

Even the dumbest person would simply forgive man instead of going through such a farcical scheme.

Am I wrong?
Yes. The "to forgive man for not praising him enough.." part is obviously a wilful misinterpretation on your part.

Try to say it in a way a Christian would at least recognize the story. God has to do more than just 'forgive'. Humankind is supposed to have fallen too far into sin for us to redeem ourselves.

We can't pay the price and God can't change the fact that a price has to be paid. So God pays the price.

You have to think about that concept "paying the price". It has to cost God something to redeem mankind.
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Old 10th July 2019, 06:15 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Yes. The "to forgive man for not praising him enough.." part is obviously a wilful misinterpretation on your part.

Try to say it in a way a Christian would at least recognize the story. Humankind is supposed to have fallen too far into sin for us to redeem ourselves.

We can't pay the price and God can't change the fact that a price has to be paid. So God pays the price.

You have to think about that concept "paying the price". It has to cost God something to redeem mankind.
The problem I had with this is "to whom is the price being paid for our redemption?"

If we accept that Yahweh is all-powerful, then he simply needs to forgive. He's got the power and simply needs to do it and can do so without the farce of paying the price owed to himself himself. It's the equivalent of having your kids owe you $10 for ice cream, but instead of making the 5 year olds come up with the cash, you take the money out of your own right pocket, transfer it to your left pocket and say the debt is now paid.

And if there is some higher force that is requiring that a price be paid and Yahweh decides that, "Rather than my flawed creation pay it I will, because otherwise this redemption can't happen" it would imply rather strongly that Yahweh is not all powerful.
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Old 10th July 2019, 06:26 AM   #23
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There is one school of thought (albeit an obscure one) that God, being omnipresent in everything (pantheism or panentheism), possesses no self-awareness. At all. That he couldn't even conceive of himself as an entity and reflect upon his own actions. And some take it further to explain the incarnation of Christ as God's stab at understanding humanity by becoming human, that being the first time God actually understood humans. Hence the behavior change between Old and New Testaments.



Ridiculous, of course, but it makes a good story. I could see it as a miniseries on Netflix.
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Old 10th July 2019, 06:29 AM   #24
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This is mostly because originally, the Hebrew god was only a god of a very small slice of the sky. He's pretty clearly derived from one of the Gods of the Canaanite religion. The Canaanites split up and all took a slightly different God as there chief God. Most were not so petty as Jahweh and only demanded to be the chief god while letting their followers worship the rest too. Not so much with El/Jahweh.

Anyrate, there's an old heresy that pops up several times in first 1000 years after christ that makes a lot more sense than the orthodoxy. There are two gods, the evil demi-urge of the old testament that created the physical universe in order to trap human souls and the true god who created the spiritual world and the true creator. That god is the god of the new testament who sent Jesus to let us all know who to escape. I suppose that god also created the Demi-urge for reasons.

I know a few progressive Christians who explain away all the petty cruelty as it being metaphor necessary to communicate with an iron age culture but now we are so much better educated that we can understand the true or at least closer to true nature of God. Meh, its a bunch of post hoc rationalization if you as me. They want God but they don't want a nasty, petty, and cruel God as described in the old testament and revelation.

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Old 10th July 2019, 06:31 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
The problem I had with this is "to whom is the price being paid for our redemption?"
I don't think they are talking about a monetary exchange.
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Old 10th July 2019, 06:53 AM   #26
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Moreover, the idea is that the nature of good, evil, sin and its consequences are all unalterable facts of reality. God can't make something that is evil good, and can't make something that is good evil and this does not imply that there is an even more powerful being who could do this.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:05 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I don't think they are talking about a monetary exchange.
I don't think that really matters, though. The price to be paid must be to someone's benefit. If God is omni-this-and-that, then isn't he paying himself? We seem to have a god that makes all the rules and then claims he's stuck with them. I can do everything except...oh not that, that's impossible for reasons I can't explain. So he makes a grand gesture, a reset, and if it were true it would be grand indeed, a gift of value even if you can't quite understand why it must be given. But then the religions that tell the tale spoil it all by saying if we don't do the right rituals and believe the right doctrines and say thanks in the specified way then it won't stick and he'll roast us anyway.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:11 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I don't think they are talking about a monetary exchange.
True, it's even stupider.

Somehow, killing a sheep makes everything ok.

So instead of killing a sheep, God let himself get killed, so no one has to kill any more sheep.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
That is the biggest problem with the Judeo-Christian God, or any god who judges humans. Why does he demand worship and praise? It's so grossly anthropomorphic and many more casual churchgoers don't say it out loud. But I know they're thinking it.
Because deep down, those who believe in God are simply seeking for a father figure. A father figure not just to love, but to feel that they can love him back. So the praising, is a way to feel that their God can feel loved by them.

I remember Stephen Colbert talking about why he believes in God, and he said something about feeling so grateful and happy to be alive, that he just needs to give back that love and gratitude toward something. That's why he needs to believe that there's a God, so that he can feel that there's someone responsible for this Universe to whom he can say "thank you". It's a very sweet thought if you think about it, whether you're a theist or an atheist.

Believers in God do not believe out of logic. No amount of rational dissection of why the Bible makes no sense (And there's plenty of nonsensical stuff there to dissect) is gonna do anything to a believer's faith, because their faith is not based on logic, but rather, on emotion.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:43 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Since as I recall a theist means more or less a person who believes in a personal god with whom one can deal, it's pretty much a given that such a god will be anthropomorphized. Right from the start, a personal god depends on the limitation of human imagination, an unlikely attribute for an actual god.

I do have to dispute one thing. Coveting is not wanting things like what your neighbor has. It's wanting the very things he has, at his expense. When you covet your neighbor's wife, you're not after her sister.
What about his ox? It is still a thought crime.
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Old 10th July 2019, 10:31 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
T
I know a few progressive Christians who explain away all the petty cruelty as it being metaphor necessary to communicate with an iron age culture but now we are so much better educated that we can understand the true or at least closer to true nature of God. Meh, its a bunch of post hoc rationalization if you as me. They want God but they don't want a nasty, petty, and cruel God as described in the old testament and revelation.
No they don't. I certainly didn't. My deconversion started when I decided to read the bible from the beginning. It was complete by the time I finished Judges or maybe it was Kings. The church I went to focused pretty much everything in the New Testament. We were never encouraged to read more than a few verses in the Old Testament and after reading it I know why.

How does one read the stories of Abraham and Isaac or Jeptha or the Godly man who didn't want his male guest raped instead sent out his concubine so she could be raped and the next day that godly man cut her up into 12 pieces and still think this is the "good book"?

All, I heard from my pastor and other Christians were awful rationalizations or outright lies about what the scripture said.
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:02 AM   #32
HansMustermann
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Since as I recall a theist means more or less a person who believes in a personal god with whom one can deal, it's pretty much a given that such a god will be anthropomorphized. Right from the start, a personal god depends on the limitation of human imagination, an unlikely attribute for an actual god.

I do have to dispute one thing. Coveting is not wanting things like what your neighbor has. It's wanting the very things he has, at his expense. When you covet your neighbor's wife, you're not after her sister.
Even if you want the very thing he has, it doesn't have to be at his expense. If my neighbour has such a magnificent donkey that God had to specifically give a commandment about it, I can offer him a fair price, or offer him some favour, or really whatever. And the area being on a major trade route, plus having been vassalized by the very commercial-minded Egypt before, they would have known that very well.

But it's more stupid than that.

Coins appear very late in human history. At the time Exodus is supposed to have happened, everything worked on barter. And to have that work at all, yeah, I have to want specifically that fine literate servant (which at the time was synonymous with slave) that you have, and you have to want, say, this young and strong ox that I have. Otherwise there's no reason to make that exchange.

There may be even be reasons for me wanting specifically THAT slave, not just any slave. Trivial example, maybe I want to buy my brother from slavery. Or maybe I want specifically THAT house because it used to be my parents' house, before they had to sell it to pay their debts. Etc.

Fast forward to the modern world -- because, remember, God is supposed to have given rules for all eternity, not just until next election -- and it becomes even more stupid. People are willing to pay an imperial buttload of money for stuff that's not fungible. E.g., specifically the jacket that some singer wore on stage. Or as a less frivolous example, a museum may be interested in specifically the only surviving manuscript of the Gospel Of Judas, not just any random old manuscript.

At any rate, I get why complete idiots ever since the beginning written history tried to save us from crime by making saying people should stop wanting stuff. It's one of those ideas that start to seem bleedingly obvious around room temperature IQ. But in the real world, the notion that if you want a specific item, it leads to crime, is not very tenable.
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Old 10th July 2019, 01:05 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Moreover, the idea is that the nature of good, evil, sin and its consequences are all unalterable facts of reality. God can't make something that is evil good, and can't make something that is good evil and this does not imply that there is an even more powerful being who could do this.
Just an FYI, but we have specific examples in the Bible of God doing exactly this. The canonical being how he hardened Pharaoh's heart to make sure he wouldn't let the Israelites leave.

Regardless, as soon as you use the word "can't", you've denied omnipotence.
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Old 10th July 2019, 01:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Yes. The "to forgive man for not praising him enough.." part is obviously a wilful misinterpretation on your part.

Try to say it in a way a Christian would at least recognize the story. God has to do more than just 'forgive'. Humankind is supposed to have fallen too far into sin for us to redeem ourselves.

We can't pay the price and God can't change the fact that a price has to be paid. So God pays the price.

You have to think about that concept "paying the price". It has to cost God something to redeem mankind.
Why?

God is omnipotent, he can do whatever he wants.

You could say he chooses to require a cost for redemption, but he's not beholden to it.
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Old 10th July 2019, 05:09 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Because deep down, those who believe in God are simply seeking for a father figure. A father figure not just to love, but to feel that they can love him back. So the praising, is a way to feel that their God can feel loved by them.

I remember Stephen Colbert talking about why he believes in God, and he said something about feeling so grateful and happy to be alive, that he just needs to give back that love and gratitude toward something. That's why he needs to believe that there's a God, so that he can feel that there's someone responsible for this Universe to whom he can say "thank you". It's a very sweet thought if you think about it, whether you're a theist or an atheist.

Believers in God do not believe out of logic. No amount of rational dissection of why the Bible makes no sense (And there's plenty of nonsensical stuff there to dissect) is gonna do anything to a believer's faith, because their faith is not based on logic, but rather, on emotion.

Of course they don't. It's mostly out of indoctrination. Get them while they are young. You're supposed to believe. It is the cultural thing to do. Mom, Dad, friends, neighbors etc say this is true.

Christianity preaches against critical thinking and applying the standards we apply to everything else.

The disciple Thomas is basically mocked for wanting proof.

Paul warns us not to think in Second Corinthians 10-5 "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ".

Hebrews 11 describes faith as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Luke says Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

In other words, this is a mass of special pleading. It is an appeal for ignorance. Do not look at the man behind the curtain. There is no other claim that we use faith to support. None. If we have a good reason to believe something we give the reason. We don't say it is faith.

Stephen Colbert is one of my favorite people on the planet. But that doesn't make the religion any less nonsensical. This man was an altar boy for 11 years. This guy still can recite mass in latin. It was a good experience for him. But it is no less an indoctrination.
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Old 10th July 2019, 06:41 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
What about his ox? It is still a thought crime.
True, coveting is a thought crime, but is there a point to pointing this out? So, essentially, is honoring your parents. My point above was not to suggest that it's not, or to argue whether it's a good or a bad commandment, but only to argue about what is meant by coveting - that it is not wanting to be on a par with one's neighbor, but to take what is his.

The idea that God can't make good evil or evil good sounds almost reasonable at first, but it falters when you consider, for example, the ten commandments, and the myriad of other laws that the Bible seems to consider defining good and evil. Must we still fear the wrath of god if we mix the wrong fabrics in our clothes? Besides, all the choices, right back to the first atom, are God's, and he's supposed to know everything about everything. If he did not create us sinning creatures on purpose, he's an inept demiurge.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
True, coveting is a thought crime, but is there a point to pointing this out? So, essentially, is honoring your parents. My point above was not to suggest that it's not, or to argue whether it's a good or a bad commandment, but only to argue about what is meant by coveting - that it is not wanting to be on a par with one's neighbor, but to take what is his.

The idea that God can't make good evil or evil good sounds almost reasonable at first, but it falters when you consider, for example, the ten commandments, and the myriad of other laws that the Bible seems to consider defining good and evil. Must we still fear the wrath of god if we mix the wrong fabrics in our clothes? Besides, all the choices, right back to the first atom, are God's, and he's supposed to know everything about everything. If he did not create us sinning creatures on purpose, he's an inept demiurge.
That's just it. The whole thing breaks down with just a small amount of critical thought. One has to twist logic into knots to make sense of it and it still doesn't. The commandment not to covet is not only a thought crime, it is amazingly offensive to women as it put's one's wife on par with an ox.

There are maybe 3 perhaps 4 of the commandments that makes sense and even those weren't something new. The rest of the laws are either immoral or make little sense today and are completely ignored except by Orthodox Jews.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Of course they don't. It's mostly out of indoctrination. Get them while they are young. You're supposed to believe. It is the cultural thing to do. Mom, Dad, friends, neighbors etc say this is true.

Christianity preaches against critical thinking and applying the standards we apply to everything else.

The disciple Thomas is basically mocked for wanting proof.

Paul warns us not to think in Second Corinthians 10-5 "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ".

Hebrews 11 describes faith as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Luke says Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

In other words, this is a mass of special pleading. It is an appeal for ignorance. Do not look at the man behind the curtain. There is no other claim that we use faith to support. None. If we have a good reason to believe something we give the reason. We don't say it is faith.

Stephen Colbert is one of my favorite people on the planet. But that doesn't make the religion any less nonsensical. This man was an altar boy for 11 years. This guy still can recite mass in latin. It was a good experience for him. But it is no less an indoctrination.
For the record, I've ever argued against that. I've never claimed that religion is not nonsensical.
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:59 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
For the record, I've ever argued against that. I've never claimed that religion is not nonsensical.
I get it.

I pretty much agree with you. You said it. It's not logic. It can't be as it makes no sense. It's all dependent on emotions and the need to belong.
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Old 10th July 2019, 09:10 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I get it.

I pretty much agree with you. You said it. It's not logic. It can't be as it makes no sense. It's all dependent on emotions and the need to belong.
You say that as though those aren't powerful motivators.
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