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Old 1st September 2017, 07:46 AM   #2001
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If they don't sell it is because it is too expensive then loss occur. It is a vicious circle, as they have lost they have to rise the price, as they rise the price they can't sell it.
That is not how the real world works.
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Old 1st September 2017, 08:12 AM   #2002
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If they don't sell it is because it is too expensive then loss occur. It is a vicious circle, as they have lost they have to rise the price, as they rise the price they can't sell it.

Okay. Prove me wrong. Describe exactly how shop keepers will know EXACTLY the right amount of produce to order to meet demand, with NO EXCESS.
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Old 1st September 2017, 11:27 AM   #2003
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If the product is free every day there is no point to rush to take.
Demand is unlimited, supply is not. It's not going to be free every day because it's not going to be there at all tomorrow. You better get it today and early too because there will be nothing left if you aren't first in line.
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Old 1st September 2017, 11:45 AM   #2004
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If they don't sell it is because it is too expensive then loss occur. It is a vicious circle, as they have lost they have to rise the price, as they rise the price they can't sell it.
I had asked somewhere upthread for evidence that you had no idea how the world worked. Thanks!
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Old 1st September 2017, 01:58 PM   #2005
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
I had asked somewhere upthread for evidence that you had no idea how the world worked. Thanks!
I am just like a normal sinner, if it too expensive i won't buy it.
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Old 1st September 2017, 02:09 PM   #2006
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I am just like a normal sinner, if it too expensive i won't buy it.
So you concede that you use money. OK, then.
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Old 1st September 2017, 02:40 PM   #2007
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I am just like a normal sinner, if it too expensive i won't buy it.
Along with the rest of your weird religion, I refuse to subscribe to its mind controlling techniques of defining "sin". If you're unable to make an argument for no money without invoking the tenets of your weird religion, then you have no argument.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 07:31 AM   #2008
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Money doesn't work for more than 1% of the population, is that problem is not enough to get rid of it? If we wait too long before to get rid of it, it will be too late, it is just like pollution, money pollute people.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 08:02 AM   #2009
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money doesn't work for more than 1% of the population, is that problem is not enough to get rid of it? If we wait too long before to get rid of it, it will be too late, it is just like pollution, money pollute people.
You should stop telling untruths to try to support your weird religious view of money.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 08:23 AM   #2010
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money doesn't work for more than 1% of the population, is that problem is not enough to get rid of it? If we wait too long before to get rid of it, it will be too late, it is just like pollution, money pollute people.
Wait so only "1% of the population" can exchange money for goods and services? If not then money does indeed "work for more than 1% of the population". So far it seems your only compliant is that money doesn't work the way you might want it to.


Going back a bit...

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What i say is that money is an evil process, if you get paid for your work, you had your reward, if you do work for your neighbour voluntarily, your reward is spiritual makes of you a better person.

So again, your system of spiritual advancement is payment for your work. So again, "an evil process" by your own assertions as "you had your reward" that "makes of you a better person".

Again as there will always be a top 1%, even of the "voluntarily" "spiritual" "better person" regard, your system likewise leaves behind 99% of the population.


Oh, and intending to shame people into "voluntarily" 'hobbies' (work) that you'd simply prefer is 100% uncharitable.

In case you're still missing the boat, coercion, either by shaming or restriction on your free goods and services, makes the work not only not a 'hobby' but explicitly non-voluntary.

At least being payed in money one can exchange that for other goods and services they prefer. While paying people with some perceived spiritual advancement or lack of shaming doesn't seem exchangeable.

In fact someone who does "work for your neighbour voluntarily" and perhaps becomes "a better person" for that but then shames that neighbor for not similarly "voluntarily" working somewhere else was never volunteering their work in the first place and is just in general a bad person. Heck, depending on the shaming of the neighbor to "work for your neighbour" ratio they might even go down a few pegs in the "better person" ranking.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 09:35 AM   #2011
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money doesn't work for more than 1% of the population, is that problem is not enough to get rid of it? If we wait too long before to get rid of it, it will be too late, it is just like pollution, money pollute people.
Yes... you believe money is bad.

That STILL doesn't prove your alternative will be as good as, or better, than money.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 04:21 PM   #2012
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If people don't work, they'll have nothing, if they work, they'll have everything they want, that's the incentive. That system is good for 100%, yours only 1% have what they want.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 04:24 PM   #2013
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If people don't work, they'll have nothing, if they work, they'll have everything they want, that's the incentive. That system is good for 100%, yours only 1% have what they want.
Thank you for admitting that things won't be "free".
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Old 3rd September 2017, 08:01 PM   #2014
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If people don't work, they'll have nothing, if they work, they'll have everything they want, that's the incentive. That system is good for 100%, yours only 1% have what they want.
That is slavery. Why do you love slavery so much?
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Old 3rd September 2017, 10:34 PM   #2015
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If people don't work, they'll have nothing, if they work, they'll have everything they want, that's the incentive. That system is good for 100%, yours only 1% have what they want.
Now you just have to explain how this works.

If somebody doesn't work, and walks into a shop, how does the shop keeper know not to give them anything?
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Old 3rd September 2017, 10:54 PM   #2016
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If people don't work, they'll have nothing, if they work, they'll have everything they want, that's the incentive.
Wait a minute. So now you're advocating to keep the money system?

Will that help the starving Ethiopians?
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Old 4th September 2017, 04:28 AM   #2017
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The real cost of anything is the cost of labor, if it's free, the sky is the limit.
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Old 4th September 2017, 04:59 AM   #2018
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The real cost of anything is the cost of labor, if it's free, the sky is the limit.
And labor isn't "free". Good, you're staying to learn.
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Old 4th September 2017, 05:33 AM   #2019
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The real cost of anything is the cost of labor, if it's free, the sky is the limit.
No, materials are a cost and energy is a cost. Being finite (and also requiring some degree of labor, materials and energy to get them where, when and how you need them) when used for one consideration means they can't be used for another. Like materials and energy labor is also finite, which makes the sky anything but the limit.


Now what exactly are the costs of simply labor? Well you have to feed your work force (at least sufficiently so they can do the work required for survival), house and cloth them. Maintain their heath (unless treated as disposable) and support their offspring (for new workers). Perhaps provide them with some diversions and entertainment. So the cost of labor is all the labor, materials and energy to do all that and that's before that work force consumes additional labor, energy and materials to produce, well, anything else. Again simply ignoring costs don't make them go away even if you just want to ignore that cost, in energy, materials and even labor, just to have, well, labor.
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Old 4th September 2017, 07:05 AM   #2020
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The real cost of anything is the cost of labor, if it's free, the sky is the limit.
If labour were free, it would be freely given.
What you describe is forcing people to work through shame and starvation.
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Old 4th September 2017, 10:38 AM   #2021
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If people don't work, they'll have nothing, if they work, they'll have everything they want, that's the incentive. That system is good for 100%, yours only 1% have what they want.
In a money system, you work or you have nothing. If you worl, it's possible that you can get everything you want.

Your statement is a lie. In your system, you don't get everything you want. You only get what you "need". There's is a huge difference between the 2 that you seem to be missing.
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Old 4th September 2017, 04:09 PM   #2022
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
No, materials are a cost and energy is a cost. Being finite (and also requiring some degree of labor, materials and energy to get them where, when and how you need them) when used for one consideration means they can't be used for another. Like materials and energy labor is also finite, which makes the sky anything but the limit.


Now what exactly are the costs of simply labor? Well you have to feed your work force (at least sufficiently so they can do the work required for survival), house and cloth them. Maintain their heath (unless treated as disposable) and support their offspring (for new workers). Perhaps provide them with some diversions and entertainment. So the cost of labor is all the labor, materials and energy to do all that and that's before that work force consumes additional labor, energy and materials to produce, well, anything else. Again simply ignoring costs don't make them go away even if you just want to ignore that cost, in energy, materials and even labor, just to have, well, labor.
You don't realize because all cost is relied to labor, maybe you can say that profit is not but it is the salary of some people, it is not just but we can say it is their salary.
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Old 4th September 2017, 05:08 PM   #2023
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't realize because all cost is relied to labor, maybe you can say that profit is not but it is the salary of some people, it is not just but we can say it is their salary.
Materials are not labor, energy is not labor. They have costs and are finite like labor and as I said may even require some labor to get them how, where and when you need making even labor one of their costs. All cost are not "relied to labor" even when one of the cost can be labor.
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Old 4th September 2017, 05:32 PM   #2024
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Materials are not labor, energy is not labor.
Yes because their exploitation is relied to labor done by humain.
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Old 4th September 2017, 10:14 PM   #2025
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Yes because their exploitation is relied to labor done by humain.
And yet it doesn't matter how many labourers arrive at the factory in the morning of the power is off and there materials have run out.

Gaetan, are you ever going to explain how your system works in any kind of plausible detail?
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Old 4th September 2017, 10:15 PM   #2026
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't realize because all cost is relied to labor, maybe you can say that profit is not but it is the salary of some people, it is not just but we can say it is their salary.
You seem confused about business. While labor is often a significant cost in business, it isn't "all" the cost.

If I run a restaurant and I sell a steak. The cow that was processed so I can get steaks has a cost beyond just the labor.

A doctor earns more than a guy who flips burgers because it takes much more education and skill to be a doctor than a guy who flips burgers.
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Old 5th September 2017, 12:34 AM   #2027
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Where i live some non profit entreprises take the food from markets which would be thrown in the garbage and distribute it to poor, that food is still good but would be loss if not distributed fast, then when it on money business there is more loss than on free business.
That food comes from a money business. Without the business, that food would not be available to be distributed.
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Old 5th September 2017, 12:38 AM   #2028
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The real cost of anything is the cost of labor, if it's free, the sky is the limit.
The labor of some people is worth more than the labor of others.

If a housepainter does a terrible job, drips paint all over the house, paints unevenly, paints over latches and windows, should he be rewarded the same as the person who designs a machine that increases the productivity of billions of people?
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Old 5th September 2017, 01:47 AM   #2029
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If a housepainter does a terrible job, drips paint all over the house, paints unevenly, paints over latches and windows, should he be rewarded the same as the person who designs a machine that increases the productivity of billions of people?
According to Marx, yes, if the housepainter is a bit mentally retarded, and this is the best that he can achieve. So both compared persons try their best, and perform at their personal best.

The philosophical idea of "fairness" in this context is, what did the retarded person do evil to deserve to be born retarded? And what good did the smart person do to deserve to be born smart? From that point of view, rewarding people's performance is not so straightforward ethically.

My ideal(ism) is close to Marx what comes to "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need", but with the exception that I would offer some remarkable rewards for innovations. Not because it is fair, but because I desperately need them. (The failure of Communism in 20th century scares the h*ll out of me to avoid their mistakes in innovation and productivity.) And because my world would not be the global Communist monopoly envisioned by Marx, a Capitalist alternative would exist, and I would need to match their offers to attract innovations on my side. Pragmatic, though painfully unideological.

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Old 5th September 2017, 03:13 AM   #2030
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
The cow that was processed so I can get steaks has a cost beyond just the labor.
Derivatives of labour, plus the right to use land and natural resources. Both of which existed before humans, but are nevertheless a scarce resource, and need to be rationed no matter if they current price and ownership is OK or not.
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Old 5th September 2017, 03:15 AM   #2031
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Gaetan, are you ever going to explain how your system works in any kind of plausible detail?
Several years of this thread is proof of: no.

I had better hopes in the other thread, Can a worker owned and managed economy work?, but the local Gaetan, caveman1917, refuses to explain and defend his position too.
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Old 5th September 2017, 05:01 AM   #2032
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That food comes from a money business. Without the business, that food would not be available to be distributed.
Cool! Since "businesses" are only very recent, that means people didn't have food for hundreds of thousands of years - yet they survived nevertheless. This is a major breakthrough you just made, Mycroft, scientists have been thinking that food is necessary for people to survive - but apparently they've survived countless of generations without food (they didn't have money businesses, therefor they didn't have food - by your majestically beautiful logic).
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Old 5th September 2017, 05:03 AM   #2033
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Several years of this thread is proof of: no.

I had better hopes in the other thread, Can a worker owned and managed economy work?, but the local Gaetan, caveman1917, refuses to explain and defend his position too.
No I just gave up after explaining your errors in detail multiple times.
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Old 5th September 2017, 05:24 AM   #2034
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No I just gave up after explaining your errors in detail multiple times.
OK, I must have missed that "in detail" part.
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Old 5th September 2017, 06:19 AM   #2035
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Yes because their exploitation is relied to labor done by humain.

"Yes", they are not labor?

Again, labor being a cost in their "exploitation" doesn't make them labor. Does the involvement of humans in that "exploitation" make energy and materials humans as well?

Exactly how much of simply labor does it take to produce some material when you don't have material(s) to start with? You do understand that humans are made of materials, don't you? No materials, then no humans.

For your own edification, labor itself requires energy and we (humans) get that energy from materials (food). No materials, no energy then no labor. Both materials and energy can exist without humans or their labor. However, humans and human labor can not exist without a particularly narrow group of materials from which we can get energy. You have the cart (human labor) before the horse (material and energy) that actually drives your cart.
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Old 5th September 2017, 09:08 AM   #2036
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Cool! Since "businesses" are only very recent, that means people didn't have food for hundreds of thousands of years - yet they survived nevertheless.
Business is not necessary for production of food. But a businesslike environment allows people to specialize into narrower and narrower fields of expertise, which has its benefits.
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Old 5th September 2017, 09:18 AM   #2037
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
Business is not necessary for production of food.
You'd think so, but no:

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Without the business, that food would not be available to be distributed.
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 5th September 2017, 10:23 AM   #2038
Joecool
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Cool! Since "businesses" are only very recent, that means people didn't have food for hundreds of thousands of years - yet they survived nevertheless. This is a major breakthrough you just made, Mycroft, scientists have been thinking that food is necessary for people to survive - but apparently they've survived countless of generations without food (they didn't have money businesses, therefor they didn't have food - by your majestically beautiful logic).
It's what we've told Gaetan many times before. A no money world will revert back to hunting and gathering. Money is a resource that can be stored or banked.

Without money, for profit companies like Chevrolet or McDonald's will not exist.

Gaetan has yet to explain how the world would function in his system.
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Old 5th September 2017, 10:53 AM   #2039
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
It's what we've told Gaetan many times before. A no money world will revert back to hunting and gathering.
No that's not what I meant. And it would be pretty stupid for people to choose going back to hunting and gathering merely because they choose to stop using money.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 5th September 2017, 12:06 PM   #2040
Joecool
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No that's not what I meant. And it would be pretty stupid for people to choose going back to hunting and gathering merely because they choose to stop using money.
With no money, companies that operate for profit will cease operations (such as supermarkets).

How will people get food? They will either hunt and gather, or steal from others. What else would someone do?
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