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Old 1st January 2019, 05:20 AM   #2001
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Not real rock you goose, cometary rock. Special A’Hearn rock.
The stupid here hurts! The thermal inertia is nothing like any sort of rock. Or dust. Read the paper, even if you can't understand it.
Quote:
although our understanding has been evolving more toward mostly rock,
Referenced by A'Hearn. No rock ever detected at a comet.
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Old 1st January 2019, 05:32 AM   #2002
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Wouldn’t really expect you to understand anything more complicated than the dirtysnowball model.

Made special for special people.
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Old 1st January 2019, 05:35 AM   #2003
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I’ve shown you the error in your linked paper, you ignore them.

That’s fine., but...

Do you believe in the ambipolar electric field at 67P, jonesdave116?

Yes or no?
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Old 1st January 2019, 05:36 AM   #2004
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
The stupid here hurts! The thermal inertia is nothing like any sort of rock. Or dust. Read the paper, even if you can't understand it.


Referenced by A'Hearn. No rock ever detected at a comet.
Not real rock, comet rock.
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Old 1st January 2019, 05:36 AM   #2005
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Wouldn’t really expect you to understand anything more complicated than the dirtysnowball model.

Made special for special people.
At least I understand the papers I link well enough not to put my foot in my mouth by making dumb claims that are ruled out by the data in those papers. And you don't have a model. No evidence, no mechanisms, no science. Still batting zero.
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Old 1st January 2019, 05:38 AM   #2006
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Not real rock, comet rock.
Not any sort of rock. Read the paper.
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Old 1st January 2019, 05:45 AM   #2007
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I’ve shown you the error in your linked paper, you ignore them.

That’s fine., but...
No you have not.
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Old 1st January 2019, 05:49 AM   #2008
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Do you believe in the ambipolar electric field at 67P, jonesdave116?

Yes or no?
It is irrelevant what I believe. Your dumb model has failed 100%. Ambipolar fields are not changing that. 8-18 000 tonnes of ice excavated at Tempel 1. How has an ambipolar field got anything to do with that? You lost. Get over it.
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Old 1st January 2019, 09:59 AM   #2009
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You need to have a Bex and a little lay down, jonesdave116.


Others wise Mums going to tell you off.

18k tonnes of”ice” from a mostly rocky come? That’s a good one.
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Old 1st January 2019, 10:04 AM   #2010
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
You need to have a Bex and a little lay down, jonesdave116.


Others wise Mums going to tell you off.

18k tonnes of”ice” from a mostly rocky come? That’s a good one.
Yes, 8-18 000 tonnes. As observed. And no rock. Crater was way too big. And a shed load of ice around Hartley 2. Entrained, along with dust, in carbon dioxide jets.
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Old 1st January 2019, 10:18 AM   #2011
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And the various ways of measuring the gas production rates;

http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2016/09...ver-two-years/

And;

Evolution of water production of 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko: an empirical model and a multi-instrument study
Hansen, K. C. et al.
https://academic.oup.com/mnras/artic...1/S491/2672995

And;

Direct Simulation Monte Carlo modelling of the major species in the coma of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
Fougere, N. et al.
https://academic.oup.com/mnras/artic...1/S156/2633379
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Old 1st January 2019, 01:40 PM   #2012
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Yes, 8-18 000 tonnes. As observed. And no rock. Crater was way too big. And a shed load of ice around Hartley 2. Entrained, along with dust, in carbon dioxide jets.
Is the dust charged?

Was Tempel 1’s ejecta mainly “ice” or “dust”?

What was he ambipolar electric field strength at Hartley 2, Tempel 1, Wild 2, Borrely?

Otherwise your blatherings about shiny stuff is just that irrelevant blatherings.
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Old 1st January 2019, 01:47 PM   #2013
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Is the dust charged?

Was Tempel 1’s ejecta mainly “ice” or “dust”?

What was he ambipolar electric field strength at Hartley 2, Tempel 1, Wild 2, Borrely?

Otherwise your blatherings about shiny stuff is just that irrelevant blatherings.
What the hell is that supposed to mean? The shiny stuff is ice. As proven. The Tempel 1 ejecta includes dust, ice and vapour. I've linked to the Spitzer paper enough times. The ice and vapour killed your woo stone dead. 13 years ago. And what the hell has electric field strength got to do with ice? Try to make sense, just for once.
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Old 1st January 2019, 02:04 PM   #2014
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Just to reiterate; ice grains in the impact ejecta at Tempel 1 were detected by three separate observations - by the DI spacecraft itself; by XMM-Newton; and by Spitzer. That killed the EC woo. Ice plays no part in their fantasy. Nor does copious amounts of H2O and other gases. This rubbish was stillborn. No science, no evidence, no mechanisms.
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Old 1st January 2019, 02:17 PM   #2015
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And let's also mention the estimates of gas production from previous apparitions of 67P, before Rosetta reached it. These seem to range between 4-7 x 1027 mol/s.
This would have been using the Haser model. The reported rates from different instrument teams, using different models based on in-situ observations, range from ~ 1.4 - 3.5 x 1028 mol/s. Which tells me that the Haser-based estimates of cometary outgassing tend to underestimate the production rate. So, Hale-Bopp? 250 000 l/s? Maybe more. That's a lot of water.
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Old 1st January 2019, 02:26 PM   #2016
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And going back to a previous piece of obfuscation from Sol; MIRO measures water vapour. Among other things. It can distinguish different isotopes of H2O. It does not detect OH. Which has a totally different signature. This is the same method used by the Odin satellite, which made numerous definitive detections prior to Thornhill's lies in 2006.
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Old 1st January 2019, 02:46 PM   #2017
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Not real rock, comet rock.
But not EC ROCK.
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Old 1st January 2019, 03:22 PM   #2018
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
But not EC ROCK.
Yep, EC rock is very strange stuff! ~75% porous. Weird rock.
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Old 1st January 2019, 03:49 PM   #2019
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Yep, EC rock is very strange stuff! ~75% porous. Weird rock.
Yeah.

And when it sublimates is blasted by EC EDM, it produces ... water!

Sometimes produces spectacular comas and tails (ion, dust, ...), sometimes nothing.

Can vanish without a trace (Sol88 can tell you which comet EC ROCK met this fate).

Etc.
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Old 1st January 2019, 04:08 PM   #2020
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Yeah.

And when it sublimates is blasted by EC EDM, it produces ... water!

Sometimes produces spectacular comas and tails (ion, dust, ...), sometimes nothing.

Can vanish without a trace (Sol88 can tell you which comet EC ROCK met this fate).

Etc.
Indeed. One has to wonder about the scientific credentials of the authors of the 'Electric Comet' poster. Evidently, one has a bachelor's degree in a physics related subject. Went on to do stuff related to computing. The other has no relevant qualifications. Wrote a bunch of crap about Earth orbiting Saturn.
A bit rubbish, really.
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Old 1st January 2019, 07:54 PM   #2021
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
I wish you all a dust free and neutral 2019

Happy new year, tusenfem.

What’s your take on,
Quote:
The fundamental physics of charged cometary dust has been studied for a long time (Mendis and Horányi 2013). Dust charging is a delicate interplay between several currents, including electron and ion collection currents from the surrounding plasma, ultraviolet induced photoelectron currents, secondary electron emission (due to energetic ion and/or electron bombardment), thermo-ionic emission, field emission (due to large surface fields), etc. Asaruleofthumb,adustparticle collects about 700 extra electrons per unit particle volumeequivalent radius (measured in µm) and unit electric potential difference between the particle surface and the surrounding plasma (measured in V). This means that in the solar wind a particle of 1 µm size can have about 104 extra electrons. Based on our experience with mesospheric dust charging at Earth it can be assumed that most of the extra electrons are deep inside the dust particle and they can electrostatically disrupt fluffy, highly friable dust particles (Hill and Mendis 1981). An updated version (Mendis and Horányi 2013)predicts that a 10−19 kg particle can be electrostatically disrupted if its tensile strength is less than about 0.5 MPa. In general, the tensile strength of a particle charged at the potential U is T =0/2 (U/R)2 (Boehnhardt and Fechtig 1987). Regarding dust electrical resistance, COSIMA estimates a specific resistance of 1016 ohmmm2 m−1 after the interaction of an Indium ion beam with the particles (Hilchenbach et al. 2017).
Cometary Dust
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Old 1st January 2019, 08:07 PM   #2022
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
And let's also mention the estimates of gas production from previous apparitions of 67P, before Rosetta reached it. These seem to range between 4-7 x 1027 mol/s.
This would have been using the Haser model. The reported rates from different instrument teams, using different models based on in-situ observations, range from ~ 1.4 - 3.5 x 1028 mol/s. Which tells me that the Haser-based estimates of cometary outgassing tend to underestimate the production rate. So, Hale-Bopp? 250 000 l/s? Maybe more. That's a lot of water.
So comets are mostly water ice then?

Utter nonsense, all those papers you linked to assume the water must come from ice, it’s bull.

You assume the massive amounts of atomic H and O come from water because all you have is a hammer.

Electric fields on the other hand, well...


Do you believe there is an ambipolar electric field at comet 67P, jonesdave116?

Do you know what an electric field is and what they can do with charged particles including the massively charged dust?

The electric comet only needs hydrated minerals and carbonates to produce the observed spectra.

Any OH coming from Ceres?

Plus all your ice is conveniently “hidden” and comets must be mostly ice, although
Quote:
At the simplest level, a very basic question is whether comets are mostly ice or mostly rock/dirt/refractory material. Whipple’s [2] model of the dirty snowball, the first quantitative model, envisioned cometary nuclei as mostly ice, although our understanding has been evolving more toward mostly rock, particularly for 67P/C-G for which refractory/volatile ratios as high as 6 have been cited [3,4].


Are you evolving jonesdave116?



Do you believe there is an ambipolar electric field at comet 67P, jonesdave116?

The electric comet, requires electric fields and charge separation.

The Dirtysnowball does not require any of these things, just warmth of the Sun...simplistic model for simpletons.
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Old 1st January 2019, 08:10 PM   #2023
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
And the various ways of measuring the gas production rates;

http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2016/09...ver-two-years/



Direct Simulation Monte Carlo modelling of the major species in the coma of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
Fougere, N. et al.
https://academic.oup.com/mnras/artic...1/S156/2633379
This paper also assume ion-neutralal collisions.

This paper throws a spanner in that simplistic view.

Onthe ion-neutral coupling in cometary comae

Quote:
ABSTRACT doi:10.1093/mnras/sty2869 In a cometary coma, the ion-neutral decoupling distance, sometimes referred to as the ion exobase or collisionopause, can be defined as the cometocentric distance, rin, where ions, initially moving with the neutral outgassing speed, have a probability of 1/e of not colliding with neutrals on their subsequent journey radially outwards. We present an analytical model for calculating this decoupling distance in the presence of a static radial electric field. We show that for a logarithmically decaying potential, the value of rin can even decrease to ∼15 percent of its field-free case value. Moreover, already at this distance, the effective ion speed can be expected to markedly exceed the neutral expansion velocity. These analytical results are in line with previous numerical calculations, adapting similar but not identical field profiles. The presence of a non-negligible ambipolar electric field and limited importance of ion-neutral collisional coupling are further supported by observations in the diamagnetic cavity of comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko by plasma instruments onboard Rosetta that reveal ion speeds several times higher than the neutral expansion velocity.
Do you believe there is an ambipolar electric field at comet 67P, jonesdave116?
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Old 1st January 2019, 10:07 PM   #2024
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Try using some of the latest papers, hey mate. Keep up with the evolving understanding of comets, jd116.

Stop living in the past and evolve your understanding like M.A’Hearn’s understanding towards rock and the importance of electric fields.

Do you believe in ambipolar electric fields at comets, 67P in party jonesdave116?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:47 AM   #2025
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Quote:
So comets are mostly water ice then?

Utter nonsense, all those papers you linked to assume the water must come from ice, it’s bull.

You assume the massive amounts of atomic H and O come from water because all you have is a hammer.

Electric fields on the other hand, well...
Will you stop deliberately lying? They are not measuring O and H. How many times do you need to be told? MIRO and VIRTIS ans ROSINA measure neutral H2O. I am getting sick to death of your wilful ignorance and lying.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:49 AM   #2026
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Quote:
Do you believe there is an ambipolar electric field at comet 67P, jonesdave116?

Do you know what an electric field is and what they can do with charged particles including the massively charged dust?
Irrelevant. Ice is seen, gas is seen. Therefore your woo failed.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:51 AM   #2027
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This paper also assume ion-neutralal collisions.

This paper throws a spanner in that simplistic view.
No it doesn't. As usual, you fail to understand the papers.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:53 AM   #2028
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The electric comet only needs hydrated minerals and carbonates to produce the observed spectra.
No it does not. Stop lying. You need high temperatures to release material from hydrated minerals. And the idiot Thornhill said nothing about hydrated minerals. You need EDM and discharges and rock. They aren't there. You fail.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:56 AM   #2029
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Try using some of the latest papers, hey mate. Keep up with the evolving understanding of comets, jd116.

Stop living in the past and evolve your understanding like M.A’Hearn’s understanding towards rock and the importance of electric fields.

Do you believe in ambipolar electric fields at comets, 67P in party jonesdave116?
Quit lying. There has never been a detection of rock at a comet, and I am getting sick and disgusted by your continued attempts to twist the words of a scientist who is no longer capable of responding to your idiocy. Grow up.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 03:00 AM   #2030
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Do you believe in ambipolar electric fields at comets, 67P in party jonesdave116?
Irrelevant. What are they doing at asteroids? What was the ion speed in the DC at Halley? Nothing to do with the complete failure of your idiotic woo.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 03:48 AM   #2031
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So comets are mostly water ice then?
No, that is your strawman, and hasn't been the thinking for some years.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:01 AM   #2032
Sol88
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
No, that is your strawman, and hasn't been the thinking for some years.
Mostly rock then?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:19 AM   #2033
jonesdave116
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Mostly rock then?
There is no rock. How many times? In terms of volume there is likely to be a ratio of 2:1 in terms of dust: ice. In mass terms, this is 6:1.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:49 AM   #2034
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Mostly rock then?
Well, for sure it's not EC ROCK ... and that's all that matters in this thread.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:27 PM   #2035
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Speaking of rock.
The images of Ultima Thule are coming in.

We managed to get a spacecraft out 6.5 billion km to photograph a piece of primordial solar system 21 km in length. If even 0.00000000000001% of the universe were to be following the electrical woo espoused by sol88 et al, that spacecraft would have soared into empty space as its flight path assumed a purely gravitational universe and it did not carry the fuel to perform such a large course correction.

I know, sol88 will keep misreading papers with any reference to electricity and ignore the fact that those effects are minute, short lived and even shorter ranged, but I'm glad mainstream ignores such fantasies so we can learn actual new things.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:34 PM   #2036
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Speaking of rock.
The images of Ultima Thule are coming in.

We managed to get a spacecraft out 6.5 billion km to photograph a piece of primordial solar system 21 km in length. If even 0.00000000000001% of the universe were to be following the electrical woo espoused by sol88 et al, that spacecraft would have soared into empty space as its flight path assumed a purely gravitational universe and it did not carry the fuel to perform such a large course correction.

I know, sol88 will keep misreading papers with any reference to electricity and ignore the fact that those effects are minute, short lived and even shorter ranged, but I'm glad mainstream ignores such fantasies so we can learn actual new things.
Buckle up princess, this “primordial” piece of rock is going to raise more questions than answers with regard to the formation of the solar system for the mainstream, just like New Horizons found at the comet like dwarf planet Pluto.



And I see first pictures in indicate a bilobate structure, much the same as a few comets we’ve imaged thus far...
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:38 PM   #2037
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Buckle up princess, this “primordial” piece of rock is going to raise more questions than answers with regard to the formation of the solar system for the mainstream, just like New Horizons found at the comet like dwarf planet Pluto.

Just more unsupported fantasies.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:58 PM   #2038
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
Well, for sure it's not EC ROCK ... and that's all that matters in this thread.
Yeah,nah this is special comet rock.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:05 PM   #2039
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Just more unsupported fantasies.
The shape seems to be common now, with a common cause.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 02:12 PM   #2040
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Yeah,nah this is special comet rock.
Dust, in other words. And organics. With ice mixed in. And a porosity of ~ 75%. And a permittivity value nothing like rock. And a thermal inertia nothing like rock. And a strength nothing like rock. Et cetera.
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