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Tags James Hodgkinson , shooting incidents , Steve Scalise

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Old 21st June 2017, 04:18 PM   #1041
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Is it your assertion that the British government extracted no income whatsoever from the Colonies until the tea tax?
Maybe they were willing to forego the incomes in order to dispose of their unwanted Scottish and Irish war criminals. I mean, you can save a lot when you just pawn them off as indentured servants, right?
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Old 21st June 2017, 04:32 PM   #1042
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Maybe they were willing to forego the incomes in order to dispose of their unwanted Scottish and Irish war criminals. I mean, you can save a lot when you just pawn them off as indentured servants, right?

Umm, no.

The British government sold them as indentured servants, and made money at it. That was just more income.

Enough more that not everyone who got shipped out as an indentured servant had necessarily done anything to deserve it.
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Old 21st June 2017, 04:36 PM   #1043
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Umm, no.

The British government sold them as indentured servants, and made money at it. That was just more income.

Enough more that not everyone who got shipped out as an indentured servant had necessarily done anything to deserve it.
That seems to weaken CapelDodger's case even more.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 03:42 AM   #1044
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What, is that this nut's motivation now? First it was about healthcare and now it's about BLM. Are we going to run down a list of every possible group who might have a grievance worthy of armed revolution?
This guy seems to have been a nut, but the issue being discussed is when do the immoral actions of the government merit violent political change.

The answer is clear, there is plenty that would do that now if it played out well for the survivors long term. Then they would be revered founders of America 2.0.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 03:45 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Is it your assertion that the British government extracted no income whatsoever from the Colonies until the tea tax?
Directly very little. This was a major issue in britain, these freeloading colonists were demanding protection from the army and navy but were not paying to help support it. The tax burden was very low on the colonies compared to those in britain.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:11 AM   #1046
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Latest Dan Carlin Common Sense podcast is quite relevant to this discussion.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 07:38 AM   #1047
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Directly very little. This was a major issue in britain, these freeloading colonists were demanding protection from the army and navy but were not paying to help support it. The tax burden was very low on the colonies compared to those in britain.

It was made into a major issue. It was a good political fairy tale to try and head off a resistance from the average Englishman to their colonial policies.

Britain was extracting plenty of wealth from the American Colonies. Her government's lack of willingness to get their share from the people who were actually benefiting from it was a policy problem all of her own making.

Those people were not the colonists. They were wealthy and (more importantly) politically powerful residents of Britain.

Efforts to make up the shortfall resulting from a lack of political willpower to tax their own powerful citizens appropriately by trying to get money from the politically impotent was a strategy which cost them in the end.

It wasn't shiftless, greedy colonists who were unwilling to carry their own weight.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 07:59 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It was made into a major issue. It was a good political fairy tale to try and head off a resistance from the average Englishman to their colonial policies.

Britain was extracting plenty of wealth from the American Colonies. Her government's lack of willingness to get their share from the people who were actually benefiting from it was a policy problem all of her own making.

Those people were not the colonists. They were wealthy and (more importantly) politically powerful residents of Britain.

Efforts to make up the shortfall resulting from a lack of political willpower to tax their own powerful citizens appropriately by trying to get money from the politically impotent was a strategy which cost them in the end.

It wasn't shiftless, greedy colonists who were unwilling to carry their own weight.
They were objecting to taxes at a level lower than other british subjects, and they didn't want representation. Those are basic facts. Sure maybe other people could also have had higher taxes, the things taxed then tended to be very different than how we structure taxes now and are more regressive.

But at a fundamental level they biggest objections through history was the minor taxes to help pay for the war that kept the french out.

Now if there was more focus on other acts like the Iron act and its outlawing of domestic steel production in the colonies it would hold up better. But the focus is always "no taxation without representation" and that is a pretty poor slogan for issues they faced that people feel comfortable justifying political violence for.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 08:19 AM   #1049
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They were objecting to taxes at a level lower than other british subjects, and they didn't want representation. Those are basic facts. Sure maybe other people could also have had higher taxes, the things taxed then tended to be very different than how we structure taxes now and are more regressive.

But at a fundamental level they biggest objections through history was the minor taxes to help pay for the war that kept the french out.

Now if there was more focus on other acts like the Iron act and its outlawing of domestic steel production in the colonies it would hold up better. But the focus is always "no taxation without representation" and that is a pretty poor slogan for issues they faced that people feel comfortable justifying political violence for.
It's a bit more complex than "free loading colonists get protected by UK". For a start, a lot of ongoing low level (and some not so low level) fighting was done by the colonists. Also, the Crown had a habit of giving back strategically threatening french holdings during pave talks (in order to trade for holdings elsewhere), which the colonists found exasperating (as they'd end up fighting against it all over again in the next go around)
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:28 AM   #1050
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I would say that violence, including property damage and killing, is morally acceptable if it is necessary to overthrow a tyrannical government.


I would say that anyone who thinks the current government of the United States is tyrannical must be really spoiled.

It's just not event something that ought to be discussed in the context of shooting people at second base.
The other thing is that the Sons of Liberty, theough they could be pretty brutal, drew the line on out and out murder. The idea of killing British civilians would have absolutely horrified them.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:32 AM   #1051
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The Colonies were making fortunes from the 17th Century. They were, after all, private enterprises : not all worked out, of course. This was about extracting some of that income for the Revenue - which paid for the Royal Navy to protect trade routes and an Army to keep the French and Indians away. All of that the colonists got for free It was only after the Seven Years War removed the French threat that any of this independence talk started.

Well, duh.
Still angry that you guys lost the Revolutionary War?
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Old 22nd June 2017, 10:35 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The Colonies were making fortunes from the 17th Century. They were, after all, private enterprises : not all worked out, of course. This was about extracting some of that income for the Revenue - which paid for the Royal Navy to protect trade routes and an Army to keep the French and Indians away. All of that the colonists got for free It was only after the Seven Years War removed the French threat that any of this independence talk started.

Well, duh.
Still angry that you guys lost the Revolutionary War?


And I think that a lot of British officials treated the colonists with open contempt had a lot to do with the Independence movement gaining steam.

A contempt that a lot of Brits still apparently have for the US.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 11:07 AM   #1053
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Still angry that you guys lost the Revolutionary War?


And I think that a lot of British officials treated the colonists with open contempt had a lot to do with the Independence movement gaining steam.
Probably best shown with the treatment of Ben Franklin in the cockpit.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:00 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The British government sold them as indentured servants, and made money at it. That was just more income.
It can't have been much money or the indenture wouldn't have been worth buying. The buyers still had to feed, clothe and shelter them, and still make a profit out of them. I'm no expert on this particular issue but I doubt the British Government was doing much more than cover costs.

Quote:
Enough more that not everyone who got shipped out as an indentured servant had necessarily done anything to deserve it.
Ethnic cleansing was the driver in most cases, not the slave trade. Also the removal of radicals, free-thinkers and trade unionists, which rather blew back on them. There was also a desire to expand the Colonies, which were very good earners for British business.

Buying cheap labour and contributing to defence costs are entirely separate things. That kind of argument would not have gone down well in Parliament, any more than it would in Congress today. What Parliament wanted was an American contribution to mutual defence : 2% of Colonial GDP, say. Sounds only fair, doesn't it?
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:11 PM   #1055
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Still angry that you guys lost the Revolutionary War?
The campaign's over, you won, can't you let it go?

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And I think that a lot of British officials treated the colonists with open contempt had a lot to do with the Independence movement gaining steam.
Nonsense. They treated Colonial gentlemen as they did any gentleman, and the lower orders similarly. You may have heard differently, but there was a lot of propaganda flying around in those days and it rings on down the ages.

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A contempt that a lot of Brits still apparently have for the US.
And now the whining. Are you sure your President is not having an unfortunate influence on you?
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:36 PM   #1056
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Is it your assertion that the British government extracted no income whatsoever from the Colonies until the tea tax?
Not a great deal directly. British business did very well from them, which contributed indirectly, but in the 18th Century the British government had few ways of tapping into the economy. Tariffs, licences, excise, some property taxes, that was about the size of it.

The British government was seriously strapped for cash after the Seven Years War, and needed some dependable way of tapping into the profits being made in Colonial trade. The ramshackle, ad hoc Colonial relationship was simply not fit for purpose in an increasingly complex world.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:47 PM   #1057
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
It's a bit more complex than "free loading colonists get protected by UK". For a start, a lot of ongoing low level (and some not so low level) fighting was done by the colonists. Also, the Crown had a habit of giving back strategically threatening french holdings during pave talks (in order to trade for holdings elsewhere), which the colonists found exasperating (as they'd end up fighting against it all over again in the next go around)
There was indeed a Colonial contribution, but the cost of it was largely (if not toally) paid for by the British government, and money is what was at the root of things. The British had to consider a larger picture in the French Wars than the colonists did, and in the larger picture the British crushed the French. Without which there'd have been no Louisiana Purchase, for which they got no thanks, of course.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 06:50 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
They were objecting to taxes at a level lower than other british subjects, and they didn't want representation. Those are basic facts. Sure maybe other people could also have had higher taxes, the things taxed then tended to be very different than how we structure taxes now and are more regressive.

But at a fundamental level they biggest objections through history was the minor taxes to help pay for the war that kept the french out.

Now if there was more focus on other acts like the Iron act and its outlawing of domestic steel production in the colonies it would hold up better. But the focus is always "no taxation without representation" and that is a pretty poor slogan for issues they faced that people feel comfortable justifying political violence for.

I think you are confusing the historiography which has been presented long after that period with what was going on at the time.

Most colonists, even the politically powerful and wealthy ones who were unhappy with British rule didn't approve of the wanton damage done by such 'tea parties". (Boston wasn't the only place.) Reparations were paid to the ship and cargo owners.

British laws about where they could sell their goods, and whether they could develop their own manufacturing industry were far more onerous, and costly to the colonists.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 07:15 PM   #1059
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
There was indeed a Colonial contribution, but the cost of it was largely (if not toally) paid for by the British government,

I'd like to see the basis for that claim.


Quote:
and money is what was at the root of things. The British had to consider a larger picture in the French Wars than the colonists did, and in the larger picture the British crushed the French. Without which there'd have been no Louisiana Purchase, for which they got no thanks, of course.
The British interest in driving the French out of the colonies was self-interest, based on the control of resources that they could profit from. Their war on the continent with the French had different motives.

It wasn't just the same war in two different places.

Colonial militia were an instrumental element in the military force which pushed the French away from the expanding Colonies. Without them the British would have been unlikely to succeed in that theater.

How instrumental? William Pitt needed to hire Colonial militia troops. Same as he did with Prussian troops on the continent.

He realized that the payoff in the Colonies was Empire. The control of the huge, untapped resources of the New World.

And it was that success in the Colonies which made the Louisiana Purchase possible. The French had already been pushed out. They were giving up something they didn't have.
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